High Court: Unreasonable delay on DSW bye-election

Sir Oxman · 03-11-2010 11:03AM #1

Breaking now:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1103/byeelection.html

"The judge found that ruling on the issue did not offend the separation of powers.

Far from the court tearing asunder the provisions of the Constitution by adjudicating on this application, he said it was the ongoing failure to move the writ for this bye-election since June 2009, which offended the terms and spirit of the Constitution and its framework for democratic representation."

Apparently, hard wording from the High Court, I wonder do the Govt have to take account and will it actually make them do the right thing (I doubt it)

whatawaster · 03-11-2010 11:11AM

If the government don't appeal this, which they shouldn't, and there should be full-scale riots if they do

- then i wouldn't be surprised if a general election is called. They can't reasonably only call one of the bye-elections, and if they are all held, the government will fall.

03-11-2010 11:13AM

That's it, the game is up, an election will have to follow

ednwireland · 03-11-2010 11:19AM

not befeore f***ing time, although as voters up here the ones that voted pat the cope into europe are to blame as he was only put up because no other
FF'er had a hope in hell of winning the european seat.

got to say i dont agree with much SF say but on this one well done

Sunnyisland · 03-11-2010 11:21AM

Well done to the shinners, now they really know the ballot box is more powerfull than the gun.

OhNoYouDidn't · 03-11-2010 11:27AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That's it, the game is up, an election will have to follow

Assuming the state don't appeal to the SC, a process that takes 2 years...

Bottle_of_Smoke · 03-11-2010 11:28AM

Fair play to Doherty. Does this actually put any legal pressure on the government to hold the election?

Pity this didn't happen a bit earlier. With the budget coming up they can use that as an excuse.

Any commentary on it from other politicians yet? FF or otherwise

Wolfe Tone · 03-11-2010 11:34AM

I love being right, I knew this would be the result.

However there is no obligation on the govt to hold the election, they can ignore this, quite safely.

the groutch · 03-11-2010 11:35AM

if they have one bye election, they'd have to have them all, could be the begining of the end

and it could be a huge boost for SF come polling day, if they were to be the party that brought the government down

Wolfe Tone · 03-11-2010 11:38AM

In effect the court is saying "Cmon now lads, you are taking too long!" It is not saying "hold the election!!"
It cannot FORCE the govt to move the writ as that would breach the separation of powers.(Basically the members of the Dail have to vote as to when they have the elsection, the court cannot tell TDs to vote a specific way)

Het-Field · 03-11-2010 11:40AM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Fair play to Doherty. Does this actually put any legal pressure on the government to hold the election?

Pity this didn't happen a bit earlier. With the budget coming up they can use that as an excuse.

Any commentary on it from other politicians yet? FF or otherwise

No legal pressure.

It is simply a declaration as to the legal rights of Pierse Doherty in the context of the matter. No mandatory relief was sought in the application.

Either way, the Courts cannot order the Oireachtas to take any course of action. It just applies massive moral pressure on the state, and is another embarrassment for Cowen and his ilk.

Het-Field · 03-11-2010 11:42AM

the groutch wrote: »

if they have one bye election, they'd have to have them all, this is the begining of the end

Not true. Given the varying time periods involved, and precedent in terms of the length of time before other bye-elections were called, it is likely this is case specific to the Cope's seat. They could certainly distinguish the four cases on the grounds of the time period since the seats were first vacated.

seamus · 03-11-2010 11:42AM

They can confortably ignore this ruling. At best Mr. Doherty now has grounds to sue the government on account of his rights having been breached.

However, if any of the government's coalition partners take this on board and consider that a government in ongoing breach of the constitution is a government which no longer has the mandate of the people, then they might do the right thing and break the coalition. I'm looking at the greens here. Love them or loathe them, I don't think that they would endorse ongoing constitutional defiance just to cling onto their seats in government.

Calling the bye-elections is the end of the government. They have a majority of 3 and there are 4 seats to be filled by the opposition. That said, if shinners took one of those seats, the status quo would remain.

If FF had any sense, they would schedule a general election for late January/early February 2011 and then use this as leverage to build an all-party budget which will get voted in, in December. So when campaiging time comes around, everyone's to blame for the last crappy budget and no-one can say that it's someone else's fault that the pensioners/kids/sick/disabled/downtrodden are out of pocket.

03-11-2010 11:44AM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Assuming the state don't appeal to the SC, a process that takes 2 years...

Doubt it, that would kill FF, it would be brought up at every election for years and lead to the ultimate demise of them.

OhNoYouDidn't · 03-11-2010 11:48AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Doubt it, that would kill FF, it would be brought up at every election for years and lead to the ultimate demise of them.

As opposed to their other option which is to igore the ruling? Rock, hardplace

Lenny Lovett · 03-11-2010 12:08PM

I'm not one for heaping praise on Sinn Fein but I absolutely praise their actions on this. Now all we need is the Greens to finally wake up their conscience and do the right thing assuming they want to salvage any scrap of credibility. I sense that Gerry Adams may now run in Donegal. He has nothing to stop him and I would like to see him on the frontline of Irish Politics.

Sir Oxman · 03-11-2010 12:10PM

I must congratulate Pearse Doherty and SF on this - they pushed the envelope and surprised everyone.

I believe this particular bye-election will be held before the months end.

Wolfe Tone · 03-11-2010 12:11PM

Oh yes, well done Sinn Fein for challenging the govt, and for acting on your words.

DrumSteve · 03-11-2010 12:14PM

You reckon they'll bring the Cope back from Europe?

RobFowl · 03-11-2010 12:21PM

gambiaman wrote: »

I must congratulate Pearse Doherty and SF on this - they pushed the envelope and surprised everyone.

I believe this particular bye-election will be held before the months end.

I'm no fan of SF but have to agree, Pearse Doherty and SF have done Irish democracy a lot of good here.

ednwireland · 03-11-2010 12:22PM

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I'm not one for heaping praise on Sinn Fein but I absolutely praise their actions on this. Now all we need is the Greens to finally wake up their conscience and do the right thing assuming they want to salvage any scrap of credibility. I sense that Gerry Adams may now run in Donegal. He has nothing to stop him and I would like to see him on the frontline of Irish Politics.

surely pearse is front runner i think gerry would polarise opinion too much (wouldnt get my vote)
why would gerry run here, sorry dont understand

gandalf · 03-11-2010 12:28PM

gambiaman wrote: »

I must congratulate Pearse Doherty and SF on this - they pushed the envelope and surprised everyone.

I believe this particular bye-election will be held before the months end.

Again fair play to Sinn Fein for pursuing this.

However there is no way the Government will run this by-election before the budget with Jim McDaid standing down. It will be early in the new year at this stage.

Unless of course they don't want to be in charge for the budget

Bottle_of_Smoke · 03-11-2010 12:29PM

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

I'm not one for heaping praise on Sinn Fein but I absolutely praise their actions on this. Now all we need is the Greens to finally wake up their conscience and do the right thing assuming they want to salvage any scrap of credibility. I sense that Gerry Adams may now run in Donegal. He has nothing to stop him and I would like to see him on the frontline of Irish Politics.

No, that won't happen. He's a Belfast man elected in Belfast for Stormont and also the abstentionist MP for his constituency.

Him running in Donegal would imply the 26 counties are more Irish than the 6 which would go against Sinn Fein's core beliefs.

Its obviously gonna be Pearse Doherty

eigrod · 03-11-2010 12:36PM

Has Dan tweeted on this yet ?

flutered · 03-11-2010 12:40PM

forgive me if i am wrong, but did not the court say that it would take a very darconion view, if its opinion was not used.

Sir Oxman · 03-11-2010 12:41PM

More from the President of the High Courts ruling:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1103/byeelection.html

"The judge said he was not going to order the Government to move the writ or not to oppose a motion for the issue of a writ.

But he said he hoped any clarification provided by this judgment would have that effect.

Mr Justice Kearns said the court might feel constrained to take a more serious view if any Government, not just the present one, was seen to be acting in clear disregard of an applicant's constitutional rights by continually refusing over an unreasonable period of time to move the writ for a bye-election.

He said the Court can intervene in a more draconian way in extreme cases to protect constitutional obligations.

He said this was not yet such a case but in his opinion it was not far short of it."

!
At this moment, the Govt are considering their next step/response...

03-11-2010 12:41PM

seamus wrote: »

If FF had any sense, they would schedule a general election for late January/early February 2011 and then use this as leverage to build an all-party budget which will get voted in, in December. So when campaiging time comes around, everyone's to blame for the last crappy budget and no-one can say that it's someone else's fault that the pensioners/kids/sick/disabled/downtrodden are out of pocket.

I'm not sure how that could work.

If they say they will have an election in the new year then there is no way that they can have a budget in December. They would immediatly be a lame duck.

No opposition party would sign up to the harshest budget in years and then go looking for votes a few weeks later.

I hope this is a watershed for FF. The writing is on the wall with this HC announcement. If they ignore it (which they are entitled to do) they will be seen as trying to hang on to power for dear life.

I think one of the following should happen

1. The Gov sees the writing on the wall and the Dail is dissolved. You will have an election in a few weeks but no budget. That will come after Christmas from the new Government.

2. The Gov keep going and sunmit a budget that will be lost because Mr Healy Rae and Mr Lowery will vote against it, and an election will be called. The new Gov will then submit a budget in early 2011.

Wolfe Tone · 03-11-2010 12:44PM

The judge said he was not going to order the Government to move the writ or not to oppose a motion for the issue of a writ.
But he said he hoped any clarification provided by this judgment would have that effect.
Mr Justice Kearns said the court might feel constrained to take a more serious view if any Government, not just the present one, was seen to be acting in clear disregard of an applicant's constitutional rights by continually refusing over an unreasonable period of time to move the writ for a bye-election.

I wonder what the Judges exact words were? I think he shot himself in the foot. You cant issue a declaration if you cannot force it.

fayer · 03-11-2010 12:44PM

Interesting judgement, I'm no fan of the shinners, but well done lads. The court can take more direct action is the Government ignores the Judgement without risk to the SP if the Constitution is being bypassed. Any high-court decisions on a matter of constitutionally law can be appealed to the SC, if they appeal they will loose any shred of creditability! (not that they have much left)

From RTE

Mr Justice Kearns said the court might feel constrained to take a more serious view if any Government, not just the present one, was seen to be acting in clear disregard of an applicant's constitutional rights by continually refusing over an unreasonable period of time to move the writ for a bye-election.

He said the Court can intervene in a more draconian way in extreme cases to protect constitutional obligations.

He said this was not yet such a case but in his opinion it was not far short of it.

gandalf · 03-11-2010 12:45PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I hope this is a watershed for FF. The writing is on the wall with this HC announcement. If they ignore it (which they are entitled to do) they will be seen as trying to hang on to power for dear life.

What do you think they have been doing. They are hanging onto power for dear life

They know they could be in the wilderness for a very long time after the next general election and they certainly deserve to be so they might as well make hay while the sun shines.

OhNoYouDidn't · 03-11-2010 12:47PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I wonder what the Judges exact words were? I think he shot himself in the foot. You cant issue a declaration if you cannot force it.

Any legal bods care to clarify what exactly the stick here is?

I assume there has to be a legam mechanism to compel the government to hold general elections for example

High Court: Unreasonable delay on DSW bye-election

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