LISBON CONSPIRACY MEGA THREAD - threads merged

meglome · 29-10-2010 1:23am

squod wrote: »

They want to include bail-outs in Lisbon 3.

I wasn't aware there was more than one Lisbon treaty.

My name is URL · 29-10-2010 1:55am

meglome wrote: »

I wasn't aware there was more than one Lisbon treaty.

I bet you weren't. Time will tell how things turn out. I'd wager that there'll be a major turning point reached within the next 18 months which will wipe the smirks off those faces which are now being disingenuous about what they believed our ratification of the treaty could and would lead to.

gizmo · 29-10-2010 2:21am

My name is URL wrote: »

I bet you weren't. Time will tell how things turn out. I'd wager that there'll be a major turning point reached within the next 18 months which will wipe the smirks off those faces which are now being disingenuous about what they believed our ratification of the treaty could and would lead to.

That's true of both sides in fairness.

meglome · 29-10-2010 2:34am

My name is URL wrote: »

I bet you weren't. Time will tell how things turn out. I'd wager that there'll be a major turning point reached within the next 18 months which will wipe the smirks off those faces which are now being disingenuous about what they believed our ratification of the treaty could and would lead to.

Maybe you'd explain to me how exactly the Lisbon treaty made our government and us do all the stupid things we did to fukk up the country?

My name is URL · 29-10-2010 2:42am

meglome wrote: »

Maybe you'd explain to me how exactly the Lisbon treaty made our government and us do all the stupid things we did to fukk up the country?

The Lisbon Treaty didn't make us do anything. I don't disagree that we all played a part in how things have turned out.. of course we did. But why does a man hunt? Why does he turn a meal into a bounty? We are all selfish, all of us. Handing power over to a more select group is not avoidance of that fact.. it is confirmation of how we are destined to carry on.

meglome · 29-10-2010 2:52am

My name is URL wrote: »

The Lisbon Treaty didn't make us do anything. I don't disagree that we all played a part in how things have turned out.. of course we did. But why does a man hunt? Why does he turn a meal into a bounty? We are all selfish, all of us. Handing power over to a more select group is not avoidance of that fact.. it is confirmation of how we are destined to carry on.

But again the EU didn't make us greedy. It didn't make us rob each other by over pricing everything. The funny thing about all of this is the EU have been basically nothing but good to us. Look at most of our laws to protect workers etc, from the EU. I dread to think how we'd be if we had only our own politicians to rely on. In my many discussions on Lisbon I have come to appreciate that a lot of people hate it because they believe we have lost our 'sovereignty'. For me I appreciate that a small country like Ireland never had this sovereignty in the first place, to think otherwise is a fallacy.

My name is URL · 29-10-2010 1:42pm

meglome wrote: »

But again the EU didn't make us greedy. It didn't make us rob each other by over pricing everything. The funny thing about all of this is the EU have been basically nothing but good to us. Look at most of our laws to protect workers etc, from the EU. I dread to think how we'd be if we had only our own politicians to rely on. In my many discussions on Lisbon I have come to appreciate that a lot of people hate it because they believe we have lost our 'sovereignty'. For me I appreciate that a small country like Ireland never had this sovereignty in the first place, to think otherwise is a fallacy.

I don't doubt that the EU has been good for us. And agree that we would be in a worse off position without it. That doesn't mean that we should bow down and accept to hand over vast quantities of decision making power to it now though. Ireland does have sovereignty.. I don't know how you can say that we never had or suggest that the idea is fallacious.

I'm not a euroskeptic at all fwiw. I'm skeptical of Lisbon though and what it might eventually lead to.

PanchoVilla · 29-10-2010 9:22pm

Taken from the politics forum:

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

So Brian Cowen was just on EuroNews saying that there would be no referendum in Ireland to adopt a new or amended Lisbon Treaty. He feels the Irish people really don't want another referendum and are happy with the Government deciding.... Eh? Are we? I'm not happy with them deciding anything. Can we just be ridden roughshod over like this?

Seems like our little democracy is looking more and more like a fascist state.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1029/eu_lisbon.html

sligopark · 29-10-2010 10:31pm

meglome wrote: »

Maybe you'd explain to me how exactly the Lisbon treaty made our government and us do all the stupid things we did to fukk up the country?

you 're right the Lisbon treaty was one of things that the political class as a whole did to this country to destroy it.

Not sure about al the issues coir brought up (nor their background) but Ganley was right about EU interference in our sovereign financial matters

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't doubt that the EU has been good for us.

agreed in part but agreed with this

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm not a euroskeptic at all fwiw. I'm skeptical of Lisbon though and what it might eventually lead to.

I am a firm nationist who is pro europe: a europe of co-operating states for mutual benefit, a friendly co-operating free trade europe if you will but I can not give myself to a federal superstate with governance without democracy that the lisbon treaty has given us.

The euro currency has been a disaster for us as a nation as privateer bankers went wild borrowing on a bet (not insuring themselves on mortgages as they would have us do) and now we have to pay back via anglo irish in the main to german banks to preserve the euro and now the same german government want to punish us and remove our democracy for keeping up payments to their banks rather than defaulting and keeping the poorest and those in ill health in best care.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Seems like our little democracy is looking more and more like a fascist state.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1029/eu_lisbon.html

unfortunately it appears Brian BIFFO Moowan would sell his granny never mind his children's birthright - he should be ashamed. I hope FF disintegrate as a party and new politics arises

A Northerner I know often laughs at Southerners and disses them as too sheep like after centuries of domination and sending their best up North as too sheep like to riot ... and as I have said before ... home to mammy sheeple

Lisbon 2 was about jobs - how did sheeple miss the 2000 dell jobs in Limerick (and the 11000 supportive jobs regionally) moving to Poland with Polish EU back grant aid just before the vote?

Must have been Barroso calling over to lie to us....

meglome · 29-10-2010 11:01pm

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't doubt that the EU has been good for us. And agree that we would be in a worse off position without it.

Well we agree on some things anyway.

My name is URL wrote: »

That doesn't mean that we should bow down and accept to hand over vast quantities of decision making power to it now though. Ireland does have sovereignty.. I don't know how you can say that we never had or suggest that the idea is fallacious.

Of course we have some sovereignty. But a country of 4 odd million people cannot be truly independent, we were linked at the hip to Britain before we joined the EU. You see handing over some decision making as bad but I don't. I wouldn't trust our politicians to do the right thing, on the other hand the EU has shown it can be trusted. Look at our laws, how many of them that protect us came for the EU? About 80% as far as I recall.

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm not a euroskeptic at all fwiw. I'm skeptical of Lisbon though and what it might eventually lead to.

Supposedly Sinn Fein are pro-Europe but they have campaigned against every EU treaty including the one when we joined the EU. I've come to realise that the version of 'sovereignty' they want doesn't exist.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Taken from the politics forum:

Seems like our little democracy is looking more and more like a fascist state.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1029/eu_lisbon.html

Look lets be very clear about this. Whatever we needed a referendum for before Lisbon we still do now. That has not changed - FACT. So Cowen saying this means the changes will have to be fairly minor.

sligopark wrote: »

you 're right the Lisbon treaty was one of things that the political class as a whole did to this country to destroy it.

Not sure about al the issues coir brought up (nor their background) but Ganley was right about EU interference in our sovereign financial matters

I keep hearing how Lisbon fukked up the country but no one can tell me how. So maybe you can tell me specifically how the Lisbon treaty damaged this country? the details please.

sligopark wrote: »

I am a firm nationist who is pro europe: a europe of co-operating states for mutual benefit, a friendly co-operating free trade europe if you will but I can not give myself to a federal superstate with governance without democracy that the lisbon treaty has given us.

The German constitutional court ruled there was nothing whatsoever in the Lisbon treaty that created a federal Europe. But what would their top constitutional judges know, I'm sure you know better with all your experience. And for the first time the Lisbon treaty sets out the mechanism for any country to leave the EU should they so wish.

sligopark wrote: »

The euro currency has been a disaster for us as a nation as privateer bankers went wild borrowing on a bet (not insuring themselves on mortgages as they would have us do) and now we have to pay back via anglo irish in the main to german banks to preserve the euro and now the same german government want to punish us and remove our democracy for keeping up payments to their banks rather than defaulting and keeping the poorest and those in ill health in best care.

This really is tiresome. The Euro didn't do any of these things. Yes the Euro allowed people and banks here to access cheap credit but no one made anyone make terrible decisions. Europe didn't make our government make terrible decisions, Europe didn't make us have no proper regulation of our banks. Europe didn't make our banks greedy and stupid. There was nothing wrong with cheap credit if we made the slightest attempt to manage that correctly. WE made those terrible decisions, at the very least by electing fools.

sligopark wrote: »

unfortunately it appears Brian BIFFO Moowan would sell his granny never mind his children's birthright - he should be ashamed. I hope FF disintegrate as a party and new politics arises.

Oh I'll be very glad when he's gone and hopefully his party too. But he can't sell us out without us agreeing to it by referendum.

sligopark wrote: »

A Northerner I know often laughs at Southerners and disses them as too sheep like after centuries of domination and sending their best up North as too sheep like to riot ... and as I have said before ... home to mammy sheeple

Interesting notion but since when do southerners go up North as a rule, other than to buy cheap goods. If anything the Northerners come down here.

sligopark wrote: »

Lisbon 2 was about jobs - how did sheeple miss the 2000 dell jobs in Limerick (and the 11000 supportive jobs regionally) moving to Poland with Polish EU back grant aid just before the vote?

Must have been Barroso calling over to lie to us....

Nothing the Lisbon treaty does could fix the total fukk up we made of this country. Yes the fukk up WE made. Time to stop blaming others.

sligopark · 30-10-2010 12:25am

I agree Meglome - voters in the republic ar eultimately to blame but really they were unaware of the wider influence of greed within FF FG and labour politicians other than the politics that arose with the Lisbon treaty

meglome wrote: »

on the other hand the EU has shown it can be trusted

WHAHOO

Seen their accountability regarding spending - seen how they spin journalists - I bet you don't really.. http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=9035

meglome wrote: »

Look at our laws, how many of them that protect us came for the EU? About 80% as far as I recall.

personally I don't remember any EU influence on our constitution (unless you mean that Scottish chap Connolly)

Not shinner nor care about their politics nor your opinion of them - their leaders lied continaully to voters and army members

meglome wrote: »

Look lets be very clear about this. Whatever we needed a referendum for before Lisbon we still do now. That has not changed - FACT. So Cowen saying this means the changes will have to be fairly minor.

FACT my c0ck - and Moowan has proved already he is willing to sell off his granny - he has already sold off is children's birthright - can I ask this of you directly - if this change involves diminution of democracy for the Irish people do you believe we should have a vote on that or allow the likes of the traitors Lenihan and Mowan decide this for us?

meglome wrote: »

I keep hearing how Lisbon fukked up the country but no one can tell me how. So maybe you can tell me specifically how the Lisbon treaty damaged this country? the details please.

specifically by removing the option of defaulting on german bank loans - are you so blind or financially ignorant of the facts around the anglo irish bail out bond holders?

meglome wrote: »

The German constitutional court ruled there was nothing whatsoever in the Lisbon treaty that created a federal Europe. But what would their top constitutional judges know

misquote - they specifially stated that if there was to be a change as so agreed right now it needed put to the people

meglome wrote: »

the Euro allowed people and banks here to access cheap credit but no one made anyone make terrible decisions. Europe didn't make our government make terrible decisions, Europe didn't make us have no proper regulation of our banks. Europe didn't make our banks greedy and stupid.

you're right but they allowed the loop hole remain open against all advice - year in year out and even when economist cried out aloud IRISH PROPERTY BUBBLE AND THE EURO

Yet they quite happily allowed the Euro currncy be put at risk now the likes of me and you have top pay whilst pricks like Sutherland that cried PROSPERITY AND SPEND SPEND SPEND at late as 2007 make profit and profit at the sick, ill and old in Mayo's loss

Megalome you running this line should be ashamed.

meglome wrote: »

Yes the fukk up WE made. Time to stop blaming others.

I had nothing to do with what has now happened to the country - and I doubt you did either and so I am at at a loss at your apologist attitude - why do you are actively promoting a 'sheeple' agenda?

PanchoVilla · 30-10-2010 12:54am

meglome wrote: »

I wouldn't trust our politicians to do the right thing, on the other hand the EU has shown it can be trusted.

I wouldn't trust any European nation with the things they've done in the last 100 years or so. Just look at Africa and the shíte they've caused there. The Dutch in SA and Nigeria, Belgians and French in west Africa, the Brits is Somalia and Ethiopia. They created a mess in Africa and expect someone else to clean it up. Then you have the Germans who hold a huge amount of power in the EU. How the hell did that happen? Didn't we learn anything from two world wars?

Most European countries are colonialist and we have very little, if anything, in common with them. I'm strongly anti-EU and think we need to remove ourselves from the future United States of Europe as soon as possible. Where the Germans and French failed with WW2 they succeeded with the EU.

uprising2 · 30-10-2010 2:07am

meglome wrote: »

Look lets be very clear about this. Whatever we needed a referendum for before Lisbon we still do now. That has not changed - FACT. So Cowen saying this means the changes will have to be fairly minor.

It's still fukking change, and then another minor change, then another minor change, then it's one BIG change, what I've been saying would happen all along.

Any change to what was voted for, makes it not what was voted for, it makes it different, it changes it, and we won't get a say, us not getting a say becomes the norm.

You may be more than willing to take it up the ass, no matter what size it is and from what direction it comes, but thats you and thankfully we are all not you.

Hey Bend over.....................

EU leaders say treaty changes will not require referendum
1 hour ago
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1030/1224282319989.html

THE DECISION of EU leaders to reopen the Lisbon Treaty to create a permanent rescue scheme for eurozone countries was adopted on the basis that the move would not lead to a referendum in Ireland or any other member state, The Irish Times has learned.

While Taoiseach Brian Cowen said yesterday that he could not anticipate whether a referendum would be needed, the Government hopes the use of a simplified procedure to make a very narrow revision to the treaty will avert any requirement for a vote.

Are you ready baby..............................

The Taoiseach said treaty change would not automatically lead to a referral to the people.

meglome · 30-10-2010 11:25am

uprising2 wrote: »

It's still fukking change, and then another minor change, then another minor change, then it's one BIG change, what I've been saying would happen all along.

Any change to what was voted for, makes it not what was voted for, it makes it different, it changes it, and we won't get a say, us not getting a say becomes the norm.

You may be more than willing to take it up the ass, no matter what size it is and from what direction it comes, but thats you and thankfully we are all not you.

Hey Bend over.....................

EU leaders say treaty changes will not require referendum
1 hour ago
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1030/1224282319989.html

Are you ready baby..............................

I hate to be a bringer of bad (and obvious) news but changes were made to EU arrangements all the time, long before Lisbon. It's was only every several years that new treaty's would be voted on to put all the agreed changes together. I hope I don't have to fully explain how representative democracy works but basically we elect people to make certain decisions on our behalf which our government (the one we elected) are doing in this instance. This doesn't alter the fact that any changes we needed a referendum on before Lisbon we still need one on now.

What seems to be happening here is some people are assuming whatever these changes will be will involve the EU eating our babies. This seems remarkably like the way every single treaty since we joined the EU has been debated in this country and oddly it's never happened.

The EU in the main are a force for good and it's a pity when people don't see that. But let's also be very clear about this we are going to have to take some medicine because WE fukked up royally. I personally didn't vote for our government but WE as a nation did and now the piper has to be paid in some way. I suggest putting the blame where it lies, with Fianna Fail and their buddies.

meglome · 30-10-2010 12:01pm

sligopark wrote: »

I agree Meglome - voters in the republic ar eultimately to blame but really they were unaware of the wider influence of greed within FF FG and labour politicians other than the politics that arose with the Lisbon treaty

Being unaware makes it okay does it? If I'm unaware of drink driving laws should I get in my car and drive drunk?

sligopark wrote: »

Seen their accountability regarding spending - seen how they spin journalists - I bet you don't really.. http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=9035

I never suggested the EU were perfect, no bureaucracy is. They are a force for good though generally. And far better than our own politicians.

sligopark wrote: »

personally I don't remember any EU influence on our constitution (unless you mean that Scottish chap Connolly)

It's almost funny. The EU give us a ton of laws to the real benefit of every man, woman and child in this country, also a ton of free money and some people refuse to even consider this being a good thing.

sligopark wrote: »

Not shinner nor care about their politics nor your opinion of them - their leaders lied continaully to voters and army members

The point I was making is Sinn Fein say they are Pro-EU but have campaigned against very single EU treaty. These are not the actions of people who are really Pro-EU. Which is what I suspect of many people who say... I'm Pro-EU but...

sligopark wrote: »

FACT my c0ck - and Moowan has proved already he is willing to sell off his granny - he has already sold off is children's birthright - can I ask this of you directly - if this change involves diminution of democracy for the Irish people do you believe we should have a vote on that or allow the likes of the traitors Lenihan and Mowan decide this for us?

I'm glad you have an opinion but your opinion or mine won't change the law. See also my response to Uprising above.

sligopark wrote: »

specifically by removing the option of defaulting on german bank loans - are you so blind or financially ignorant of the facts around the anglo irish bail out bond holders?

So you think we should default on the loans the nice Germans were willing to give us. The same Germans that didn't go crazy on cheap credit and fukk up their country. And you may have noticed (thankfully) the Anglo bond holders are going to be hit.

sligopark wrote: »

misquote - they specifially stated that if there was to be a change as so agreed right now it needed put to the people

I can only repeat whatever change needed a referendum before Lisbon needs a referendum now.

sligopark wrote: »

you're right but they allowed the loop hole remain open against all advice - year in year out and even when economist cried out aloud IRISH PROPERTY BUBBLE AND THE EURO

I find this actually funny, not the situation mind you. With the Lisbon treaty we were told the EU were taking over and had too much power. But in practice when the EU repeatedly warned our government about their actions our government ignored them. Not only that they laughed and scoffed about it. And the EU didn't have the power to stop them. So are you saying the EU need more powers to stop it happening again?

sligopark wrote: »

Yet they quite happily allowed the Euro currncy be put at risk now the likes of me and you have top pay whilst pricks like Sutherland that cried PROSPERITY AND SPEND SPEND SPEND at late as 2007 make profit and profit at the sick, ill and old in Mayo's loss

Megalome you running this line should be ashamed

I'll try explain this again. The euro didn't make us do anything. Let's look at it this way. If you put a box of sweets in front of an adult you don't expect them to eat all of the sweets and get sick on your floor. But you wouldn't leave a box of sweets with most children, so we acted like children when the EU took us for adults.

That is totally our own fault.

sligopark wrote: »

I had nothing to do with what has now happened to the country - and I doubt you did either and so I am at at a loss at your apologist attitude - why do you are actively promoting a 'sheeple' agenda?

Didn't you though? Did you actively campaign against this government? Did you tell all of your friends and family, using sensible arguments why they shouldn't vote for FF? The difference between me and you is I'm placing the blame where it lies... with the Irish people. And not trying to blame the EU.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I wouldn't trust any European nation with the things they've done in the last 100 years or so. Just look at Africa and the shíte they've caused there. The Dutch in SA and Nigeria, Belgians and French in west Africa, the Brits is Somalia and Ethiopia. They created a mess in Africa and expect someone else to clean it up. Then you have the Germans who hold a huge amount of power in the EU. How the hell did that happen? Didn't we learn anything from two world wars?

Most European countries are colonialist and we have very little, if anything, in common with them. I'm strongly anti-EU and think we need to remove ourselves from the future United States of Europe as soon as possible. Where the Germans and French failed with WW2 they succeeded with the EU.

You seemed to have missed the point that the EU was created because of the world wars. The Germans and French learned the old way of doing things didn't work out too well. So do you think we should have kept going that way?

So tell me exactly how much power the do Germans have in the EU? You'll be able to describe the way the voting works right?

I'm just thankful that you are very much in the minority in this country in thinking it would be a good thing to leave the EU. My reading of the history books would tell me that this country was a poor miserable, backward shíthole before we joined the EU.

uprising2 · 30-10-2010 5:08pm

humanji wrote: »

What outlandish claim? I said that several companies have announced that they are creating jobs. Paddy Power announced 250 new jobs.

That made me laugh, Paddy Power need more staff to cope with the rising number of unemployed men with nothing better to do than hang around a betting shop all day hoping they can turn 50c into a €5 note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5340Sf14Ts

A REBEL’S GUIDE TO THE LISBON TREATY

REFERENDUM 2009

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGNcKiOxYEP5TorndivmXsadiLUn5yf9AKizKXTR3z2LHpzYY&t=1&usg=__zLowfM69xrRxsDQGNwfg2t8dac0=

Great to see Brussels helping us get all them jobs now!:eek:

BRUSSELS, Oct 5 (Reuters) - Euro zone policymakers are quietly but firmly pressing Ireland to raise its low corporate tax rate, a magnet for investment, as it struggles with an ever larger bill for sorting out its stricken banks.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE69414M20101005

So we voted yes, can we have all them jobs now???

King Mob · 30-10-2010 5:14pm

uprising2 wrote: »

So we voted yes, can we have all them jobs now???

We voted yes, can we have all those horrible things the no side promised?
Forced abortions?
Conscrpition to the evil EU army?
Forced vaccinations?

uprising2 · 30-10-2010 9:00pm

King Mob wrote: »

We voted yes, can we have all those horrible things the no side promised?
Forced abortions?
Conscrpition to the evil EU army?
Forced vaccinations?

10 years from now you just might, I wonder will they listen to your whimpers that your afraid of needles.

Bulgarian Minister of Defense Networks as EU Mulls Joint Army
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=121664

http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/cfsp/index_en.htm

Wasn't too long ago Sarkozy was planning on making vaccinations mandatory, I wonder if another imaginary killer pandemic were created would he get his way like he is now?, not far fetched at all.

TBH I think everybody is just going through the motions and sticking to the bilderberg script, trying to make it all appear unplanned.

If Lisbon isn't good enough as is, it should be scrapped and wrote again, they seem to have got the green light from Cowen although nobody knows exactly what the wording of the changes will enen be yet.

KingMob what do you think of this change of events?, how the Lisbon Treaty is going to be changed and its being decided for us, that we don't need to be asked?, why do you still buy all the bullsh1t?

Are we fukking retarded?, can we not control our own destiny?

King Mob · 30-10-2010 9:04pm

uprising2 wrote: »

10 years from now you just might, I wonder will they listen to your whimpers that your afraid of needles.

Bulgarian Minister of Defense Networks as EU Mulls Joint Army
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=121664

http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/cfsp/index_en.htm

Wasn't too long ago Sarkozy was planning on making vaccinations mandatory, I wonder if another imaginary killer pandemic were created would he get his way like he is now?, not far fetched at all.

TBH I think everybody is just going through the motions and sticking to the bilderberg script, trying to make it all appear unplanned.

If Lisbon isn't good enough as is, it should be scrapped and wrote again, they seem to have got the green light from Cowen although nobody knows exactly what the wording of the changes will enen be yet.

KingMob what do you think of this change of events?, how the Lisbon Treaty is going to be changed and its being decided for us, that we don't need to be asked?, why do you still buy all the bullsh1t?

Are we fukking retarded?, can we not control our own destiny?

So what you are saying is that the scaremongering stuff wasn't going to come immediately and we have to wait a while to see the full effect?

Huh... it's almost as if the exact same argument can be applied to the yes side...

My name is URL · 30-10-2010 9:05pm

King Mob wrote: »

We voted yes, can we have all those horrible things the no side promised?
Forced abortions?
Conscrpition to the evil EU army?
Forced vaccinations?

Wasn't it just the lunatic fringes who promised those things? I seem to remember some mention of job creation from some official figures in the rub-up to Lisbon II. I don't think the lies from one side excuse those of the other.

PanchoVilla · 30-10-2010 9:14pm

These changes will make future bank bailouts legally binding. They will remove the choice of allowing banks to pay for their own mismanagement and corruption. Irish taxpayers will not only be held responsible for our banks, but for banks throughout the EU.

If the proposed changes go ahead, they will also suspend voting rights for any country the EU deems as being negligent in it's duties to the EU economy. For instance, when the EU brought the Irish government before the European courts for promoting Irish goods back in 1982. We will no longer have a say in how our own economy is run.

The Lisbon Treaty was ten years in the making but now they want to change it just one year into it? No, if they want to make these changes they will have to hold a referendum. Simple as.

King Mob · 30-10-2010 9:15pm

My name is URL wrote: »

Wasn't it just the lunatic fringes who promised those things?

<Looks back at the previous claims made in this very forum>.
Yes. Yes it was.

But I would be surprised if you found some of the promises "serious" detractors have come true as well.

My name is URL wrote: »

I seem to remember some mention of job creation from some official figures in the rub-up to Lisbon II. I don't think the lies from one side excuse those of the other.

Oh I'm sure it's probable there was a ton of bull****ting from the yes side, it's politics.
But my point is showing the hypocrisy in saying "Their promises didn't come true" while completely glossing over the warnings that have also not come true.

Also there's a slight difference in scale. One side: we'll have more jobs in the future. The other: FORCED ABORTIONS!

K-9 · 30-10-2010 9:17pm

uprising2 wrote: »

10 years from now you just might, I wonder will they listen to your whimpers that your afraid of needles.

Bulgarian Minister of Defense Networks as EU Mulls Joint Army
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=121664

http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/cfsp/index_en.htm

Wasn't too long ago Sarkozy was planning on making vaccinations mandatory, I wonder if another imaginary killer pandemic were created would he get his way like he is now?, not far fetched at all.

TBH I think everybody is just going through the motions and sticking to the bilderberg script, trying to make it all appear unplanned.

If Lisbon isn't good enough as is, it should be scrapped and wrote again, they seem to have got the green light from Cowen although nobody knows exactly what the wording of the changes will enen be yet.

KingMob what do you think of this change of events?, how the Lisbon Treaty is going to be changed and its being decided for us, that we don't need to be asked?, why do you still buy all the bullsh1t?

Are we fukking retarded?, can we not control our own destiny?

It's just an opinion. Doesn't mean anything. Do you actually believe this stuff?

PanchoVilla · 30-10-2010 9:28pm

King Mob wrote: »

<Looks back at the previous claims made in this very forum>.
Yes. Yes it was.

But I would be surprised if you found some of the promises "serious" detractors have come true as well.

Oh I'm sure it's probable there was a ton of bull****ting from the yes side, it's politics.
But my point is showing the hypocrisy in saying "Their promises didn't come true" while completely glossing over the warnings that have also not come true.

Also there's a slight difference in scale. One side: we'll have more jobs in the future. The other: FORCED ABORTIONS!

Promises like the erosion of our sovereignty and decision making abilities? Our government can't even make up a budget without EU approval. We can't promote Irish goods in order to lift us out of recession. We have to spend billions to upgrade infrastructure to EU standards. This is not just from Lisbon, this goes back many years. Did you even read the changes they are proposing? Suspension of voting rights? Making bank bailouts mandatory?

So when anti-Lisbon people talk bullshít they are the lunatic fringe but when the government talks bullshít it's just politics? A bit of a double standard there, no? I don't think you even know what you're talking about, you're just arguing because that's "your thing" on this forum.

My name is URL · 30-10-2010 9:31pm

King Mob wrote: »

But my point is showing the hypocrisy in saying "Their promises didn't come true" while completely glossing over the warnings that have also not come true.

Also there's a slight difference in scale. One side: we'll have more jobs in the future. The other: FORCED ABORTIONS!

You're comparing a centrist campaign to a far-right campaign though. Most people realised that COIR's poster campaign was one of desperation and deceit. Analysts commented on it, and discussion was rife amongst voters. On the other hand, the government backed and critically accepted view was that a Yes vote would unequivocally lead to increased employment and a stabalised economy. Instead we're being threatened about not increasing corporation tax which would effectively blunt whatever edge we have left in an internationally competitive scope

King Mob · 30-10-2010 9:32pm

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Promises like the erosion of our sovereignty and decision making abilities? Our government can't even make up a budget without EU approval. We can't promote Irish goods in order to lift us out of recession. We have to spend billions to upgrade infrastructure to EU standards. This is not just from Lisbon, this goes back many years. Did you even read the changes they are proposing? Suspension of voting rights? Making bank bailouts mandatory?

So when anti-Lisbon people talk bullshít they are the lunatic fringe but when the government talks bullshít it's just politics? A bit of a double standard there, no? I don't think you even know what you're talking about, you're just arguing because that's "your thing" on this forum.

Except that's not what the anti side where promising and that's not what's going to happen.

Slight issue there I think.

But please continue your scaremongering, it'll provide so much fodder when it all fails to come true like all the others.

King Mob · 30-10-2010 9:35pm

My name is URL wrote: »

You're comparing a centrist campaign to a far-right campaign though. Most people realised that COIR's poster campaign was one of desperation and deceit. Analysts commented on it, and discussion was rife amongst voters. On the other hand, the government backed and critically accepted view was that a Yes vote would unequivocally lead to increased employment and a stabalised economy. Instead we're being threatened about not increasing corporation tax which would effectively blunt whatever edge we have left in an internationally competitive scope

I'm only using far right examples because those where the only criticisms, all proved to be false before the actual vote.
So can you provide a example of a sane critism that has actually come true?

PanchoVilla · 30-10-2010 9:37pm

King Mob wrote: »

Except that's not what the anti side where promising and that's not what's going to happen.

Slight issue there I think.

But please continue your scaremongering, it'll provide so much fodder when it all fails to come true like all the others.

5 Key reasons to Vote No to the Lisbon Treaty

1. It is a bad deal for Ireland and has already been rejected by the Irish people.

2. It reduces Ireland’s power in the EU – we will lose our permanent commissioner and our voting strength on the Council will be cut by half while the bigger states double their strength.

3. It will make the economic crisis even worse by forcing through policies that caused the recession, reducing the Irish government’s ability to take essential decisions, driving down pay and conditions and further undermining our public services.

4. It erodes neutrality by drawing us into a common defence and obliging us to increase military spending.

5. It removes our automatic right to a referendum on future changes to existing treaties.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/alternative-guide-to-lisbon-2

You were saying?

My name is URL · 30-10-2010 9:41pm

King Mob wrote: »

I'm only using far right examples because those where the only criticisms, all proved to be false before the actual vote.
So can you provide a example of a sane critism that has actually come true?

Well partial loss of sovereignty for a start.. some on this thread have claimed we never had any to lose in the first place however. I mentioned numerous times in the EU forum that I was concerned about the decision making capabilities of smaller or more desperate nations being taken away in lieu of an overall policy for growth, which now seems to be the case. Of course only time will tell, and I sincerely hope that I am proven wrong.

King Mob · 30-10-2010 9:41pm

PanchoVilla wrote: »

http://www.sinnfein.ie/alternative-guide-to-lisbon-2

You were saying?

Pretty much the exact same as I was.
And I'll add that that list is sorely out of date as well.

But why let facts get in your way?

LISBON CONSPIRACY MEGA THREAD - threads merged

Comments