Should Tax Exemption for Writers and Artists be scrapped?

Dorcha · 25-10-2010 02:20PM #1

I’ve always thought that tax exemption for writers and artists in Ireland should be scrapped. If you’re earning enough to bring you within the tax bracket, then of course you should pay tax. My beliefs were reinforced by reading this:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-chicklit-briga...-tax-benefits-469532.html

I’m not surprised to hear Poolbeg were in trouble. They once held an MS of mine for two years before I could get it back off them.

Corsendonk · 25-10-2010 02:28PM

Well if it gets rid of the Chic Lit Brigade and Bono I am all for it!

flutered · 25-10-2010 03:47PM

can the some of the so called stud farms come into the equation, one mare on 200 acres = no tax.

Atlantic Dawn · 25-10-2010 05:46PM

I don't think it should be scrapped but it should be put at a sensible level like say the first €500,000 annually tax free and then tax the rest at the same rate as everyone else.

GSF · 25-10-2010 05:49PM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I don't think it should be scrapped but it should be put at a sensible level like say the first €500,000 annually tax free and then tax the rest at the same rate as everyone else.

€500K :eek: you are a generous person. Why do artists need €500k tax free?

Rockery Woman · 25-10-2010 05:49PM

Yes.

It was Charlie Haughies idea.

Should definately be scrapped!

tenchi-fan · 25-10-2010 05:54PM

Of course it should be scrapped. Income is income and should be taxed. Successful artists do not need the exemption, unsuccessful artists will not earn enough to pay tax anyway!

Atlantic Dawn · 25-10-2010 10:22PM

GSF wrote: »

€500K :eek: you are a generous person. Why do artists need €500k tax free?

An artist/writer may have one or two good years in their lives and that's it, not everyone is a Bono type who could earn tens of millions over their career. I believe the original idea behind that scheme was to help small artists and writers establish themselves in the country.

MagicMarker · 25-10-2010 10:34PM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

An artist/writer may have one or two good years in their lives and that's it, not everyone is a Bono type who could earn tens of millions over their career. I believe the original idea behind that scheme was to help small artists and writers establish themselves in the country.

After those one or two good years are they incapable of getting a job?

P. Breathnach · 25-10-2010 10:48PM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

An artist/writer may have one or two good years in their lives and that's it, not everyone is a Bono type who could earn tens of millions over their career.

You might also have the circumstance where somebody takes several years to write a book, so one big year might represent four year's work. You can deal with such things by allowing the income to be averaged over a number of years.

I believe the original idea behind that scheme was to help small artists and writers establish themselves in the country.

It was sold as being that, and it also worked as an inducement for a number of successful writers to locate here (most of whom, I think, have since departed as they have found other ways of avoiding tax).

Cynic that I am, I thought there was a considerable element of CJH playing the role of prince/patron with our money.

Red Alert · 26-10-2010 04:35PM

In a nutshell, yes. Artists' tax on earnings, like everybody else, should be decided using the existing income tax rules.

Permabear · 26-10-2010 05:17PM

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jmayo · 26-10-2010 05:21PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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I never thought charlie gave money to anyone, I always thought it was the reverse.

Ice cubed · 26-10-2010 05:35PM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I don't think it should be scrapped but it should be put at a sensible level like say the first €500,000 annually tax free and then tax the rest at the same rate as everyone else.

Its capped at €125,000. Art link

xavidub · 26-10-2010 05:59PM

Of course the exemption should be scrapped. I have never seen convincing evidence that a greater quantity or quality of art is produced as a result of it.

We also have ridiculous situations where ****e like Cecilia Ahern's writing is subsidised despite having zero artistic merit imo.

Dorcha · 26-10-2010 06:16PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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And yet he wouldn’t allow us to keep ours! Another example of the sort of inequality that causes ructions.

Except for a very few (excluding, of course, newspaper journalists), most writers can’t make a living from their profession. They have to stick with their “day job” - if they’re lucky enough to have one - and do their writing as an aside.

Perhaps in the days of the Celtic Tiger, we could afford to be indulgent about this sort of thing, but now it’s time that the writers and artists who avail of this scheme, had it taken away from them and paid their taxes like the rest of us.

Permabear · 26-10-2010 06:30PM

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Sponge Bob · 26-10-2010 07:16PM

Cap it at €50k and leave it be for earnings under €50k....the €50k to include any stipends from Aosdána of course which are minimum €20k

Dorcha · 26-10-2010 07:23PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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"Like the rest of us" applies both ways. If they don't earn enough, they don't pay tax; if they do earn enough, they pay tax. Why should they be exempted?

(I always though my pay was at the lower end of the scale - it was below the "average industrial" - but if you're correct, then I was in the top fifty earners, seeing as I paid tax every day of my working life. This, of course, leads on to the conclusion that the other fifty percent had pretty low pay, even in the days of the Celtic Tiger.)

gandalf · 26-10-2010 10:39PM

They should be tax exempt for the average wage. After that they should be taxed at the prevailing rates.

While it is a noble idea to promote the arts the way we have in this country it is now a luxury we can no longer afford to continue in its present form.

bamboozle · 27-10-2010 08:04AM

cant see this being reduced from 250k, over the last 20 years Ireland has had so many uber rich artists, writers, musicians, F1 drivers etc move here from abroad, buy an expensive house, buy an expensive car or two, join the local tennis/golf/rugby club, eat out in fancy restaurants etc etc - all of this has boosted the local economies into which they've moved, and to be honest i'd rather see people like this encouraged here rather than see an extra few million swallowed up by the HSE.

Lockstep · 27-10-2010 08:44AM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Is that really true? I've paid PAYE and the highest hourly wage I've ever earned (as someone entitled to the experienced-level minimum wage) is €9 (I usually earn €8.65, and have earned less while working on the continent or the UK)

I've been hearing a fair bit that many Irish people don't pay any income tax at all, but I havn't seen anything showing that low earners pay no income tax (apart from the Personal Income Tax Credit, which gives €1830, but doesn't affect you unless you're earning around €9k a year.)

Would be class if I could get some clarification.

gurramok · 27-10-2010 09:04AM

Its true kickoutthejams, about 40% of workers do not earn enough to meet the threshold to pay income tax at 20%, that is they earn less than €18,300

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

# reland’s top 0.5% of earners, the 11,714 people who earned more than €275,000 in a year, paid almost 18% of all income tax, over €2bn in total. Their average tax rate was 27.5%.
# Almost 770,000 people earned less than €17,000. Understandably, given tax credits, these workers paid a tiny amount of tax, €20m in total. Their average tax rate was about 0.5%.
# It’s in the middle, though, where things seem to go all screwy. The median earner, earning about €25,000, paid just 4% in income tax! As I argued before, we seem to have got ourselves into a situation where the typical Irish worker pays hardly any income tax and yet seems to think they are heavily taxed.

jmayo · 27-10-2010 09:17AM

xavidub wrote: »

Of course the exemption should be scrapped. I have never seen convincing evidence that a greater quantity or quality of art is produced as a result of it.

We also have ridiculous situations where ****e like Cecilia Ahern's writing is subsidised despite having zero artistic merit imo.

You forgot how daddy got tax exemption on his work of fiction. :rolleyes:

Isn't a bit rich that someone without a tax celarance cert got tax exemptionon "their writing" ?

donegalfella wrote: »

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Except that is not really being truly correct either.
Certain people with very large incomes have the wherewithall to hire the best tax lawyers & accountants to then they find the loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of tax.

At least Michael O'Leary for all his sins cannot be put into this bracket as some other of our so called high flyers. :rolleyes:

The ones that really pay the tax in this country are the middle to high income earners who get caught in the net.

Lockstep · 27-10-2010 10:51AM

gurramok wrote: »

Its true kickoutthejams, about 40% of workers do not earn enough to meet the threshold to pay income tax at 20%, that is they earn less than €18,300

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

Nothing there says that they pay no tax at all, it says they don't pay much. The Personal Income Tax Credit amounts to €1830, so unless you're earning less than 9k a year, it seems you'll be paying income tax to some degree.

gurramok · 27-10-2010 11:22AM

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Nothing there says that they pay no tax at all, it says they don't pay much. The Personal Income Tax Credit amounts to €1830, so unless you're earning less than 9k a year, it seems you'll be paying income tax to some degree.

Maybe i'm reading this wrong, the tax credit is there to keep people out of the income tax brackets for low pay workers. I suspect the tax rises will be in the form of reducing said tax credits so more people will be paying income tax.

Earning less than 9k, people on the dole 'earn' more than that!

The lower paid do pay too much indirect tax as a proportion of their income, Bertie's economics screwed this bunch of people.

Tora Bora · 27-10-2010 11:35AM

So do westlife and such "artists", get the generous tax relief?
If the answer is yes, then there is only one possible thing to do with the said tax relief .............. scrap it, and introduce a special levy on such claptrap music:cool:

Meeja Ireland · 27-10-2010 11:41AM

Tora Bora wrote: »

So do westlife and such "artists", get the generous tax relief?
If the answer is yes, then there is only one possible thing to do with the said tax relief .............. scrap it, and introduce a special levy on such claptrap music:cool:

I think the use of the tax code to enforce aesthetic judgements on the merits of one particular group of performers is a pernicious and dangerous idea. What is needed is clearly some kind of studded bat.

Lockstep · 27-10-2010 11:51AM

gurramok wrote: »

Maybe i'm reading this wrong, the tax credit is there to keep people out of the income tax brackets for low pay workers. I suspect the tax rises will be in the form of reducing said tax credits so more people will be paying income tax.

Earning less than 9k, people on the dole 'earn' more than that!

The lower paid do pay too much indirect tax as a proportion of their income, Bertie's economics screwed this bunch of people.

Yeah, although the PITC means that those under 9k a year are exempt from income tax. Once you go over this low rate,you start paying some form income tax.

I'd much prefer our general income taxes to be raised and our VAT/indirect taxes cut. It's an extremely regressive system which just discourages spending. When I was working in Belgium, I was heavily taxed, but the cost of living was much cheaper. Worked out very well for me (personally)

gurramok · 27-10-2010 02:45PM

Tora Bora wrote: »

So do westlife and such "artists", get the generous tax relief?
If the answer is yes, then there is only one possible thing to do with the said tax relief .............. scrap it, and introduce a special levy on such claptrap music:cool:

Before it was capped, the likes of U2 and Joe Elliott from Def Leppard obtained the exemption. Anyone who can write a book can get exempted, its been abused by scammers whereby genuine artists who struggle to earn a living get unfair bad labelling.

gbee · 27-10-2010 02:56PM

Artist TAX exemption should stay, and Bertie Ahern should apply for same ....

A sponger is someone who lives off the state, but may not need to and may be working and making money.

Artists [most anyway] generate income from third parties, that is unless a Government minister buys her painting then it's the tax payer who funds that, but she generate income from the book publisher and from royalties and the government get a share in every book sold.

However, there is a point where artists cross the line, U2 would be an example of that ~ the trick here is to remove the 'artist' tag from commercial organisations, like U2 and treat them like the business they really are.

Should Tax Exemption for Writers and Artists be scrapped?

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