Should Tax Exemption for Writers and Artists be scrapped?

Dorcha

I’ve always thought that tax exemption for writers and artists in Ireland should be scrapped. If you’re earning enough to bring you within the tax bracket, then of course you should pay tax. My beliefs were reinforced by reading this:


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-chicklit-briga...-tax-benefits-469532.html


I’m not surprised to hear Poolbeg were in trouble. They once held an MS of mine for two years before I could get it back off them.

Corsendonk

Well if it gets rid of the Chic Lit Brigade and Bono I am all for it!

flutered

can the some of the so called stud farms come into the equation, one mare on 200 acres = no tax.

Atlantic Dawn

I don't think it should be scrapped but it should be put at a sensible level like say the first €500,000 annually tax free and then tax the rest at the same rate as everyone else.

GSF

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I don't think it should be scrapped but it should be put at a sensible level like say the first €500,000 annually tax free and then tax the rest at the same rate as everyone else.

€500K :eek: you are a generous person. Why do artists need €500k tax free?

Rockery Woman

Yes.

It was Charlie Haughies idea.

Should definately be scrapped!

tenchi-fan

Of course it should be scrapped. Income is income and should be taxed. Successful artists do not need the exemption, unsuccessful artists will not earn enough to pay tax anyway!

Atlantic Dawn

GSF wrote: »

€500K :eek: you are a generous person. Why do artists need €500k tax free?

An artist/writer may have one or two good years in their lives and that's it, not everyone is a Bono type who could earn tens of millions over their career. I believe the original idea behind that scheme was to help small artists and writers establish themselves in the country.

MagicMarker

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

An artist/writer may have one or two good years in their lives and that's it, not everyone is a Bono type who could earn tens of millions over their career. I believe the original idea behind that scheme was to help small artists and writers establish themselves in the country.

After those one or two good years are they incapable of getting a job?

P. Breathnach

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

An artist/writer may have one or two good years in their lives and that's it, not everyone is a Bono type who could earn tens of millions over their career.

You might also have the circumstance where somebody takes several years to write a book, so one big year might represent four year's work. You can deal with such things by allowing the income to be averaged over a number of years.

I believe the original idea behind that scheme was to help small artists and writers establish themselves in the country.

It was sold as being that, and it also worked as an inducement for a number of successful writers to locate here (most of whom, I think, have since departed as they have found other ways of avoiding tax).

Cynic that I am, I thought there was a considerable element of CJH playing the role of prince/patron with our money.

Red Alert

In a nutshell, yes. Artists' tax on earnings, like everybody else, should be decided using the existing income tax rules.

Permabear

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jmayo

donegalfella wrote: »

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I never thought charlie gave money to anyone, I always thought it was the reverse.

Ice cubed

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I don't think it should be scrapped but it should be put at a sensible level like say the first €500,000 annually tax free and then tax the rest at the same rate as everyone else.

Its capped at €125,000. Art link

xavidub

Of course the exemption should be scrapped. I have never seen convincing evidence that a greater quantity or quality of art is produced as a result of it.

We also have ridiculous situations where ****e like Cecilia Ahern's writing is subsidised despite having zero artistic merit imo.

Dorcha

donegalfella wrote: »

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donegalfella wrote: »

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And yet he wouldn’t allow us to keep ours! Another example of the sort of inequality that causes ructions.

Except for a very few (excluding, of course, newspaper journalists), most writers can’t make a living from their profession. They have to stick with their “day job” - if they’re lucky enough to have one - and do their writing as an aside.

Perhaps in the days of the Celtic Tiger, we could afford to be indulgent about this sort of thing, but now it’s time that the writers and artists who avail of this scheme, had it taken away from them and paid their taxes like the rest of us.

Permabear

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Sponge Bob

Cap it at €50k and leave it be for earnings under €50k....the €50k to include any stipends from Aosdána of course which are minimum €20k

Dorcha

donegalfella wrote: »

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"Like the rest of us" applies both ways. If they don't earn enough, they don't pay tax; if they do earn enough, they pay tax. Why should they be exempted?

(I always though my pay was at the lower end of the scale - it was below the "average industrial" - but if you're correct, then I was in the top fifty earners, seeing as I paid tax every day of my working life. This, of course, leads on to the conclusion that the other fifty percent had pretty low pay, even in the days of the Celtic Tiger.)

gandalf

They should be tax exempt for the average wage. After that they should be taxed at the prevailing rates.

While it is a noble idea to promote the arts the way we have in this country it is now a luxury we can no longer afford to continue in its present form.

bamboozle

cant see this being reduced from 250k, over the last 20 years Ireland has had so many uber rich artists, writers, musicians, F1 drivers etc move here from abroad, buy an expensive house, buy an expensive car or two, join the local tennis/golf/rugby club, eat out in fancy restaurants etc etc - all of this has boosted the local economies into which they've moved, and to be honest i'd rather see people like this encouraged here rather than see an extra few million swallowed up by the HSE.

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Is that really true? I've paid PAYE and the highest hourly wage I've ever earned (as someone entitled to the experienced-level minimum wage) is €9 (I usually earn €8.65, and have earned less while working on the continent or the UK)

I've been hearing a fair bit that many Irish people don't pay any income tax at all, but I havn't seen anything showing that low earners pay no income tax (apart from the Personal Income Tax Credit, which gives €1830, but doesn't affect you unless you're earning around €9k a year.)

Would be class if I could get some clarification.

gurramok

Its true kickoutthejams, about 40% of workers do not earn enough to meet the threshold to pay income tax at 20%, that is they earn less than €18,300

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

# reland’s top 0.5% of earners, the 11,714 people who earned more than €275,000 in a year, paid almost 18% of all income tax, over €2bn in total. Their average tax rate was 27.5%.
# Almost 770,000 people earned less than €17,000. Understandably, given tax credits, these workers paid a tiny amount of tax, €20m in total. Their average tax rate was about 0.5%.
# It’s in the middle, though, where things seem to go all screwy. The median earner, earning about €25,000, paid just 4% in income tax! As I argued before, we seem to have got ourselves into a situation where the typical Irish worker pays hardly any income tax and yet seems to think they are heavily taxed.

jmayo

xavidub wrote: »

Of course the exemption should be scrapped. I have never seen convincing evidence that a greater quantity or quality of art is produced as a result of it.

We also have ridiculous situations where ****e like Cecilia Ahern's writing is subsidised despite having zero artistic merit imo.

You forgot how daddy got tax exemption on his work of fiction. :rolleyes:

Isn't a bit rich that someone without a tax celarance cert got tax exemptionon "their writing" ?

donegalfella wrote: »

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Except that is not really being truly correct either.
Certain people with very large incomes have the wherewithall to hire the best tax lawyers & accountants to then they find the loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of tax.

At least Michael O'Leary for all his sins cannot be put into this bracket as some other of our so called high flyers. :rolleyes:

The ones that really pay the tax in this country are the middle to high income earners who get caught in the net.

Lockstep

gurramok wrote: »

Its true kickoutthejams, about 40% of workers do not earn enough to meet the threshold to pay income tax at 20%, that is they earn less than €18,300

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

Nothing there says that they pay no tax at all, it says they don't pay much. The Personal Income Tax Credit amounts to €1830, so unless you're earning less than 9k a year, it seems you'll be paying income tax to some degree.

gurramok

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Nothing there says that they pay no tax at all, it says they don't pay much. The Personal Income Tax Credit amounts to €1830, so unless you're earning less than 9k a year, it seems you'll be paying income tax to some degree.

Maybe i'm reading this wrong, the tax credit is there to keep people out of the income tax brackets for low pay workers. I suspect the tax rises will be in the form of reducing said tax credits so more people will be paying income tax.

Earning less than 9k, people on the dole 'earn' more than that!

The lower paid do pay too much indirect tax as a proportion of their income, Bertie's economics screwed this bunch of people.

Tora Bora

So do westlife and such "artists", get the generous tax relief?
If the answer is yes, then there is only one possible thing to do with the said tax relief .............. scrap it, and introduce a special levy on such claptrap music:cool:

Meeja Ireland

Tora Bora wrote: »

So do westlife and such "artists", get the generous tax relief?
If the answer is yes, then there is only one possible thing to do with the said tax relief .............. scrap it, and introduce a special levy on such claptrap music:cool:

I think the use of the tax code to enforce aesthetic judgements on the merits of one particular group of performers is a pernicious and dangerous idea. What is needed is clearly some kind of studded bat.

Lockstep

gurramok wrote: »

Maybe i'm reading this wrong, the tax credit is there to keep people out of the income tax brackets for low pay workers. I suspect the tax rises will be in the form of reducing said tax credits so more people will be paying income tax.

Earning less than 9k, people on the dole 'earn' more than that!

The lower paid do pay too much indirect tax as a proportion of their income, Bertie's economics screwed this bunch of people.

Yeah, although the PITC means that those under 9k a year are exempt from income tax. Once you go over this low rate,you start paying some form income tax.

I'd much prefer our general income taxes to be raised and our VAT/indirect taxes cut. It's an extremely regressive system which just discourages spending. When I was working in Belgium, I was heavily taxed, but the cost of living was much cheaper. Worked out very well for me (personally)

gurramok

Tora Bora wrote: »

So do westlife and such "artists", get the generous tax relief?
If the answer is yes, then there is only one possible thing to do with the said tax relief .............. scrap it, and introduce a special levy on such claptrap music:cool:

Before it was capped, the likes of U2 and Joe Elliott from Def Leppard obtained the exemption. Anyone who can write a book can get exempted, its been abused by scammers whereby genuine artists who struggle to earn a living get unfair bad labelling.

gbee

Artist TAX exemption should stay, and Bertie Ahern should apply for same ....

A sponger is someone who lives off the state, but may not need to and may be working and making money.

Artists [most anyway] generate income from third parties, that is unless a Government minister buys her painting then it's the tax payer who funds that, but she generate income from the book publisher and from royalties and the government get a share in every book sold.

However, there is a point where artists cross the line, U2 would be an example of that ~ the trick here is to remove the 'artist' tag from commercial organisations, like U2 and treat them like the business they really are.

Lame Lantern

Every western nation subsidises the arts these days. The consensus is that to have a strong artistic voice is in the national interest. If you wish to dispute this, that's another argument.

Large nations provide huge direct subsidies. We provide some, but we're a small economy so we're hamstrung in that regard. The tax exemption, however, allows artists to continue to work professionally and remain in Ireland even in spite of the much smaller amount of capital available and has been, by and large, a huge success.

Few artists make more than a humble living and those that do don't benefit much from the tax dodge due to its cap and due to its relevance only to domestic earnings. Eliminating it would provide negligible receipts to the exchequer.

Anyone who can write a book can get exempted

And it's a good thing too. Even works of popular non-fiction relevant to Ireland (like economic schlock by McWilliams and Ross) are important in the national context, providing the public with political or social commentary important to our very small small population and market. They would not exist without the tax break and you simply wouldn't see books written specific to Irish life and concerns. The same goes for biographies, history books etc.

The tax dodge is a tremendously successful policy and has yielded great benefit to Irish life and in my view should not be touched.

thebaldsoprano

gbee wrote: »

Artists [most anyway] generate income from third parties, that is unless a Government minister buys her painting then it's the tax payer who funds that

Not necessarily, a good few also get funding from the Arts Council in some shape or form.

thebaldsoprano

There was a survey carried out by the VAI a while back on visual artists' incomes, which found that 67% earned less than 10,000 from their art and 91% earned less than 25,000. So a good few of them would be outside the tax net anyway.

There is the argument that their income may be sporadic, but there are other ways to handle this besides paying no tax up to 250K a year.

CamperMan

yes, it should be scrapped, what is so different about them???

gbee

CamperMan wrote: »

yes, it should be scrapped, what is so different about them???

fine TAX then, but tax the beggers in the streets too, have a PSE collect 20P off every Rose that the Gypsies sell ....

thebaldsoprano

gbee wrote: »

fine TAX then, but tax the beggers in the streets too, have a PSE collect 20P off every Rose that the Gypsies sell ....

I'm not following the supposed link between artists and beggars on the street etc. If an artist isn't earning very much then they'll likely be paying little, if any, tax anyway.

I'm curious why artists should get tax exemptions based on their occupation, rather than their income like everyone else? As CamperMan asked, what's so different about them?

del_c

Lame Lantern wrote: »

And it's a good thing too. Even works of popular non-fiction relevant to Ireland (like economic schlock by McWilliams and Ross) are important in the national context, providing the public with political or social commentary important to our very small small population and market. They would not exist without the tax break and you simply wouldn't see books written specific to Irish life and concerns. The same goes for biographies, history books etc.

The tax dodge is a tremendously successful policy and has yielded great benefit to Irish life and in my view should not be touched.

I agree, but Shane Ross was interviewed yesterday and stated that he did not qualify for the tax exemption, in comparison to bertie. Why is this so? Anything to do with him being a journalist as primary profession? (I'm fairly certain he was not fibbing, doesn't seem the type....)

Would this apply to McWilliams then too?

Psychedelic

Shane Ross blogged about this issue a while back, quite a good read and insight into how this artist tax exemption works:
http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/706/bertie-the-artist-pulls-tax-coup/

CamperMan

gbee wrote: »

fine TAX then, but tax the beggers in the streets too, have a PSE collect 20P off every Rose that the Gypsies sell ....

I agree... it should be all or nobody, why should I pay my tax whilst some lazy hippy writing a book or slapping some paint on a bit of canvas be exempt from tax..

thebaldsoprano

Psychedelic wrote: »

Shane Ross blogged about this issue a while back, quite a good read and insight into how this artist tax exemption works:
http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/706/bertie-the-artist-pulls-tax-coup/

Shane Ross wrote:

Then they kicked me deep in the solar plexus by saying that they had consulted with the Arts Council. The arty-farty elite of Ireland had given my work the thumbs-down.

...

Bertie was granted tax exemption for his autobiography, a work of art which was not universally acclaimed as a cultural masterpiece of credible history — but “autobiography” now specifically qualifies. I cannot see how Bertie was awarded recognition of artistic merit when Lysaght was not.

It's also worth noting that the Arts Council, being a quango, has its members appointed by a Government minister. Members are appointed for five years, which means its current members have all been appointed by FF.

Amhran Nua

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

It's also worth noting that the Arts Council, being a quango, has its members appointed by a Government minister. Members are appointed for five years, which means its current members have all been appointed by FF.

And lets not forget the plagiarism controversy surrounding Bertie's daughter Cecelia's first novel, for which she received a very unusual amount of money for a new author, and it's being adapted to a movie as well.

The plot is uncannily and extremely similar to that of a 1997 Korean film entitled The Letter [1]

(emphasis not mine). Anyway the upper limit has been capped, and to be honest I think its a bit rich that the issue is being raised by a priest - how much tax does the Catholic Church pay in Ireland again?

Japer

xavidub wrote: »

Of course the exemption should be scrapped. I have never seen convincing evidence that a greater quantity or quality of art is produced as a result of it.

We also have ridiculous situations where ****e like Cecilia Ahern's writing is subsidised despite having zero artistic merit imo.

+1. The ex-taoiseachs daughter should pay tax like everyone else. Bertie got tax relief on earnings on his book too. The who system is rotten. Joe Soap who sets up a business making widgets has to pay tax on all his income - in fact he pays more than PAYE workers as he does not have the PAYE allowance. Plus he has to pay an accountant to sort out his tax. Charge Celila Ahern tax, and take the smug grin off her face. It should not be left just to the rest of us to pay her fathers six figure pension + garda driver + car etc.