Budget pay cuts for ministers and TD's

Tora Bora · 22-10-2010 10:18AM #1

We are going to have a hairshirt budget, that's a given.

Naturally, the optics will require members of the oireachtas to take a very cold bath to give the appearance of leadership.

What will be the level of pay cuts for our TD's and ministers?
What other jaw dropping cut backs will there be in expenses, allowances, cars, phones, etc,?

Will Brian Cowen step up to the plate and reduce his own salary to say the average industrial wage?

GSF · 22-10-2010 10:56AM

Tora Bora wrote: »

What will be the level of pay cuts for our TD's and ministers?

I'd guess a -5% pay cut linked to a 10% increase in expense allowances

Dorcha · 22-10-2010 12:25PM

Their wages should be reduced to the average industrial wage. I would let them keep their expenses, but they would have to produce receipts for all of them.

22-10-2010 12:38PM

They should be on a minimum wage or stipend while in a recession, incentivise them to work to fix things. Law should state this. Give them loads if we grow.

We should make a new crime called economic treason or something like that and if policies can be proven to cause recessions then we claw back their pay i.e Bertie Ahern would of been paid loads while we grew but his policies ultimately led to a recession - we get the money back - jail time & or massive fines should also apply if recessions last longer than certain time frames.

The politicians play with big stakes its time they were held accountable and their actions were weighted accordingly.

Permabear · 22-10-2010 12:54PM

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ardmacha · 22-10-2010 12:57PM

This minimum wage thing is not reasonable. However a strong signal could be shown if all of these limos for personal use and the like were swept away. Things likes phones should just have a contract with someone to provide them.

RichardAnd · 22-10-2010 01:01PM

the min wage comment is a typical boards.ie remark, puerile and unreasonable. TDs will probably get a hit and they should but, sadly, even if we stopped paying everyone of them, the amount saved wouldn't really put much of a dent in the deficit.

Permabear · 22-10-2010 01:15PM

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Dorcha · 22-10-2010 01:19PM

donegalfella wrote: »

Honestly, that's a bit silly. I'm all for reducing politicians' wages, but paying only the minimum wage would ensure than only already wealthy people could afford to pursue a career in politics. And that would not necessarily be good for democracy or for the country.

I would have to disagree there. I remember several ministers being interviewed and their constant mantra when the question of their salaries came up was that they could make more if they chose to work in the private sector. In that case, money is the wrong incentive for them. If a minimum wage was brought in for politicians (it wouldn’t be, of course, because they would be the ones bringing it in), what would happen is that the wealthy would move to the private sector and the poorer people would take their political jobs. Higher education doesn’t come in to it, because the civil servants run the country anyway when the politicians aren’t getting in their way. And poorer education doesn’t mean poorer intelligence, in case anyone might think that the civil service could hoodwink those people.

pocketvenus · 22-10-2010 01:32PM

Min wage for ministers etc is never going to work the best way to deal with it is to cap their wages at what €50,000 and limit expenses such as receipts for everything, proper investigation into what is claimed for etc.

Also all these perks they get should also be done away unless it is proper ministerial busines well then no pay, expenses etc.

Looks at todays new councillers are being sent on a course to use Facebook and it is going to cost up to €500+ for each of them and I say that figure will rise even more. Seriously cant their kids, if they have any, or people who work with them show them how to use it you do not need a one or two day junket to learn how to use Facebook

Tora Bora · 22-10-2010 02:30PM

Anyone who thinks, this guy should be on the minimum wage, clearly knows nothing about the sacrifices the political classes make

AckwelFoley · 22-10-2010 04:04PM

Brian Cowen work for the average industrial wage?

That makes zero sence

Hes the leader of the state and you want him to take home less than a busy trades person or small business owner

Absolute nonsence.

You dont have to like the man, and of course there needs to be cut backs on expenses etc, but to make a suggestion like this is just complete nonsence

Dorcha · 22-10-2010 04:39PM

snyper wrote: »

Brian Cowen work for the average industrial wage?

That makes zero sence

Hes the leader of the state and you want him to take home less than a busy trades person or small business owner

Absolute nonsence.

You dont have to like the man, and of course there needs to be cut backs on expenses etc, but to make a suggestion like this is just complete nonsence

That's just your opinion; it doesn't make it fact. We'll assume that Mr Cowen and the man cleaning the street are both doing a job and contributing to the running of the country. Why would Mr Cowen's job be considered more important than that of the man cleaning the street? If the street cleaner didn't do his job, then in time we would find ourself is just as big a mess as we are at the moment, in a different context. The helath and safety of people would also be at risk. So why shouldn't the cleaner get paid the same as Mr Cowen?

Welease · 22-10-2010 04:48PM

Dorcha wrote: »

That's just your opinion; it doesn't make it fact. We'll assume that Mr Cowen and the man cleaning the street are both doing a job and contributing to the running of the country. Why would Mr Cowen's job be considered more important than that of the man cleaning the street? If the street cleaner didn't do his job, then in time we would find ourself is just as big a mess as we are at the moment, in a different context. The helath and safety of people would also be at risk. So why shouldn't the cleaner get paid the same as Mr Cowen?

Because the street cleaner doesn't have to make decisions that impact millions of people and billions of Euro?

There is a reason a CEO of a company makes more than the receptionist.. if you don't understand the reasons then /shrug...

AckwelFoley · 22-10-2010 04:52PM

Dorcha wrote: »

That's just your opinion; it doesn't make it fact. We'll assume that Mr Cowen and the man cleaning the street?

Most able bodied people can clean the streets

There are literally only a few dozen people that can and or would be willing to run the country.

By your theory, someone that works as a brain surgeon should earn the same as someone that works behind the counter at tescos, no im not insulting someone that works behind a counter - i do and have done for years, but to debate wheather someone with an education and great skill should be paid similar to someone working at a job that requires less education and skill is not just my opinion is nonsence.

Where would the insentive be for people to go to college and work hard if the reward for effort and individual skill want rewarded?

femur61 · 22-10-2010 07:08PM

Mary Lou McDonald was on the Mat Cooper show this evening, Anton Savage was in the hot seat, she said ministers pay should be cut up to 40%, they could easily live on €75k/yr. I'd die for that wage, (not literally). I never thought I'd agree with Sinn Fein but tonight I thought if they keep talking like that they might get a vote of me. Enda as well is appealing to me.

22-10-2010 07:57PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

the min wage comment is a typical boards.ie remark, puerile and unreasonable. TDs will probably get a hit and they should but, sadly, even if we stopped paying everyone of them, the amount saved wouldn't really put much of a dent in the deficit.

not really they get massive allowances on top of their wages

ninjasurfer1 · 22-10-2010 08:07PM

snyper wrote: »

Most able bodied people can clean the streets

There are literally only a few dozen people that can and or would be willing to run the country.

By your theory, someone that works as a brain surgeon should earn the same as someone that works behind the counter at tescos, no im not insulting someone that works behind a counter - i do and have done for years, but to debate wheather someone with an education and great skill should be paid similar to someone working at a job that requires less education and skill is not just my opinion is nonsence.

Where would the insentive be for people to go to college and work hard if the reward for effort and individual skill want rewarded?

While I agree that highly qualified/trained/experienced people should get paid accordingly, there's a difference between a surgeon earning a good salary doing the job he trained for and a lot of the TD's we have who have no qualifications in helping to run a country (political, legal, economic, etc, qualifications/experience).
Paying the likes of Jackie Healy Rae a TD's salary (and expenses!!) does not equate to good value for money.

Tora Bora · 22-10-2010 08:13PM

snyper wrote: »

Brian Cowen work for the average industrial wage?

That makes zero sence

Hes the leader of the state and you want him to take home less than a busy trades person or small business owner

Absolute nonsence.

You dont have to like the man, and of course there needs to be cut backs on expenses etc, but to make a suggestion like this is just complete nonsence

It's not that I dislike Cowan, or that I think he should work for average industrial wage as Taoiseach. However we are in extraordinary times, requiring tough hard decisions to be made, which will have consequences for every citizen. It can well be argued, that this and previous FF governments, allowed our economy to get out of control.

At this, juncture it would send out a serious message of intent, if the political leadership were to take a massive drop in salaries.

AckwelFoley · 22-10-2010 08:18PM

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

While I agree that highly qualified/trained/experienced people should get paid accordingly, there's a difference between a surgeon earning a good salary doing the job he trained for and a lot of the TD's we have who have no qualifications in helping to run a country (political, legal, economic, etc, qualifications/experience).
Paying the likes of Jackie Healy Rae a TD's salary (and expenses!!) does not equate to good value for money.

Most politicans have degrees, you pick JH Rae, because he's and easy target for the media, but Brian Cowen and co are very educated people.

No most of them dont hold specific degrees in political legal or econimic fields, but their well paid advisors that essentially make many of the decisions are. Do you think Brian Lenihan sits in the Bath and decides where to make budget cuts? No, he has a team of well qualified professionals advising him.

He will in essance make the final decisions but they are based on educated study of the situation, its the same for what other leader if a department is involved. The difference is the political slant they decide to go with.

Welease · 22-10-2010 08:18PM

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

While I agree that highly qualified/trained/experienced people should get paid accordingly, there's a difference between a surgeon earning a good salary doing the job he trained for and a lot of the TD's we have who have no qualifications in helping to run a country (political, legal, economic, etc, qualifications/experience).
Paying the likes of Jackie Healy Rae a TD's salary (and expenses!!) does not equate to good value for money.

Sadly while what you say is true.. His local voters would beg to differ.. and like it or not that is democracy in action...

We do have a choice...

Welease · 22-10-2010 08:25PM

Tora Bora wrote: »

It's not that I dislike Cowan, or that I think he should work for average industrial wage as Taoiseach. However we are in extraordinary times, requiring tough hard decisions to be made, which will have consequences for every citizen. It can well be argued, that this and previous FF governments, allowed our economy to get out of control.

At this, juncture it would send out a serious message of intent, if the political leadership were to take a massive drop in salaries.

In order to make Ireland more attractive to foreign investment on which we rely.. most people should take a massive drop in income...

I don't see many else lining up to do their patriotic duty, do we expect Biffo to be any different?

AckwelFoley · 22-10-2010 08:25PM

Tora Bora wrote: »

It's not that I dislike Cowan, or that I think he should work for average industrial wage as Taoiseach. However we are in extraordinary times, requiring tough hard decisions to be made, which will have consequences for every citizen. It can well be argued, that this and previous FF governments, allowed our economy to get out of control.
.

Ultimatley the government are to blame for the severity of the economic crisis. Its pointless to debate that we would have avoided it if different measures were taken, it wouldnt, Global finances are linked, we cant avoid a global economic crisis, but what we could have done was not put all our preverbial eggs in one basket, the government are guilty of not preparing for this crisis, they are in my eyes guilty of having a toothless financial regulator that allowed our banks follow in the footsteps of American lending practices.

Tora Bora wrote: »

At this, juncture it would send out a serious message of intent, if the political leadership were to take a massive drop in salaries.

We dont need messages of intent that serve little purpose, we need serious financial savings and as donegalfella said in this thread or perhaps another one, cutting td's salaries and expenses in half is only a drop in the ocean. We need significant savings and we need the within 6 months Preferably before the next bond sale, buyers of our bonds dont carfe about politicans wages, they care that our country is a safe investment.

hmmm · 22-10-2010 08:31PM

We don't want politics to end up the preserve of the rich or the useless. I don't think TDs salaries should be cut any further, instead we need to cut the number of TDs.

Minister, Taoiseach, Presidents salaries should be cut drastically.

ninjasurfer1 · 22-10-2010 08:38PM

snyper wrote: »

Most politicans have degrees, you pick JH Rae, because he's and easy target for the media, but Brian Cowen and co are very educated people.

No most of them dont hold specific degrees in political legal or econimic fields, but their well paid advisors that essentially make many of the decisions are. Do you think Brian Lenihan sits in the Bath and decides where to make budget cuts? No, he has a team of well qualified professionals advising him.

He will in essance make the final decisions but they are based on educated study of the situation, its the same for what other leader if a department is involved. The difference is the political slant they decide to go with.

Thats kind of my point.
If they have all of these expensive well qualified professionals doing the groundwork and providing all of the information, we are essentially paying top dollar for the politicians to flip a coin as to whether go with these findings or not (an over simplistic view i admit).
If these people (politicians) are not qualified in the areas they are responsible for, they will most likely take the most polished advice given to them by their advisors. If they end up making a mess of it, they blame their advisors/World economy, etc.

flutered · 22-10-2010 08:39PM

snyper wrote: »

Most able bodied people can clean the streets

There are literally only a few dozen people that can and or would be willing to run the country.

but we have a dail and seanad load of out of touch people who have ruined it

ninjasurfer1 · 22-10-2010 08:41PM

Welease wrote: »

I don't see many else lining up to do their patriotic duty, do we expect Biffo to be any different?

Difference is, Biffo will impose it on everyone else.
Lead by example and all that.....

AckwelFoley · 22-10-2010 08:48PM

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Thats kind of my point.
If they have all of these expensive well qualified professionals doing the groundwork and providing all of the information, we are essentially paying top dollar for the politicians to flip a coin as to whether go with these findings or not (an over simplistic view i admit).
If these people (politicians) are not qualified in the areas they are responsible for, they will most likely take the most polished advice given to them by their advisors. If they end up making a mess of it, they blame their advisors/World economy, etc.

The other way you could look at it is why dont people like the financial advisors. or economic advisors run the country?

Because firstly they would need to get elected by us the people, and secondly and most importantly theres more to politics than balancing the books

Michael o leary is a brilliant business man, like him or loath him hes successful, but can you imagine him as out minister for finance? There would be no socail welfare. My point is that between the political direction you need to take and the advisors, there are the people, politicans get elected because thy are good with people, if they werent they wouldnt get elected

I know a woman that was a minister in a past government, cute as a fox, but absolutely no political ideal she could work for stalin or Bertie, but been able to take advice and balance what needs to be done and what realistically can be done is what she was good at.

I know what needs to be done to fix this mess up, but i also know that for every action taken someone is going to be affected, there always is, it at this point is about limiting the number of affected and the severity of the cutbacks

AckwelFoley · 22-10-2010 08:50PM

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Difference is, Biffo will impose it on everyone else.
Lead by example and all that.....

snyper wrote: »

We dont need messages of intent that serve little purpose, we need serious financial savings and as donegalfella said in this thread or perhaps another one, cutting td's salaries and expenses in half is only a drop in the ocean. We need significant savings and we need the within 6 months Preferably before the next bond sale, buyers of our bonds dont carfe about politicans wages, they care that our country is a safe investment.

As i said, leading by example makes you and me feel better,but its solving nothing

ninjasurfer1 · 22-10-2010 08:57PM

snyper wrote: »

The other way you could look at it is why dont people like the financial advisors. or economic advisors run the country?

Because firstly they would need to get elected by us the people, and secondly and most importantly theres more to politics than balancing the books

Michael o leary is a brilliant business man, like him or loath him hes successful, but can you imagine him as out minister for finance? There would be no socail welfare. My point is that between the political direction you need to take and the advisors, there are the people, politicans get elected because thy are good with people, if they werent they wouldnt get elected

I know a woman that was a minister in a past government, cute as a fox, but absolutely no political ideal she could work for stalin or Bertie, but been able to take advice and balance what needs to be done and what realistically can be done is what she was good at.

I know what needs to be done to fix this mess up, but i also know that for every action taken someone is going to be affected, there always is, it at this point is about limiting the number of affected and the severity of the cutbacks

I agree with what you're saying. Politics is about more than pure economics. Its a juggling act.
Having said that, should we pay jugglers the extraordinary salaries that TD's command?

ninjasurfer1 · 22-10-2010 09:04PM

snyper wrote: »

As i said, leading by example makes you and me feel better,but its solving nothing

Agreed.
On a national scale, it counts for nothing.
Symbolically, it would go towards showing the masses that our politicians are sharing the pain.

Given that the TD's decide on their own cuts, the quote below sums it up for me:

"The salary of the chief executive of a large corporation is not a market award for achievement. It is frequently in the nature of a warm personal gesture by the individual to himself.”

Budget pay cuts for ministers and TD's

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