Selling poppies

Bottle_of_Smoke · 22-10-2010 01:53PM

Ellian wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks this is an argument about semiotics and what poppies signify to individual people.

To one person, it represents the memory of a staggering number of people killed in WW1 - including some Irish people.

To others it represents British militarism in it's various guises from 1918 through to the present day.

If that is true, couldn't you just apply the same argument to any symbol? For example, you could have someone who understands the irish tricolour as being a symbol of Nationalism, Unionism and the aspired to peace that could exist between those two political philosophies, and would take excpetion to a perceived usurpation (whether right or wrong) of that image when it is draped over the coffin of someone who was involved in violent nationalism?

Understand the point your making but that is not what the tri-colour stands for. It was a symbol of independence and separation from the union.

I assume you mean it represented peace between the Protestants/Anglo-Irish and the Catholic natives?

LordSutch · 22-10-2010 01:57PM

Ellian wrote: »

To one person, it represents the memory of a staggering number of people killed in WW1 - including some Irish people.

Some Irish people!!! 'understatement of the year me thinks'.

I do however agree that it means one thing to some people & something else to others, each to their own I suppose.

Wolfe Tone · 22-10-2010 02:01PM

TBH, if all you want to do is remember those who died etc, why not visit the graveyards, the memorials etc, rather than wearing such a political symbol?

Ellian · 22-10-2010 02:07PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Understand the point your making but that is not what the tri-colour stands for. It was a symbol of independence and separation from the union.

I assume you mean it represented peace between the Protestants/Anglo-Irish and the Catholic natives?

Don't want to hijack the thread but that's what I always understood it to be symbolic of although I'm not sure that there is an official symbolism. Should probably have thought of another example to make my point.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 22-10-2010 02:22PM

Ellian wrote: »

Don't want to hijack the thread but that's what I always understood it to be symbolic of although I'm not sure that there is an official symbolism. Should probably have thought of another example to make my point.

No worries I know exactly what you mean and somewhat agree. I only pointed it out because I think the tri-colour in no way represents unionism. In fact I'd say it is possible it was chosen in the hope of getting Anglo Irish and people of the Orange/Protestant tradition reconciled with Irish independence.

It certainly couldn't officially be seen as opposed to violent nationalism - the first time it was used symbolically for a big event was the 1916 rising!

RDM_83 again · 22-10-2010 02:22PM

Know of people being told in school "back in the day"* that it stood for
the Green of the grass
the White of the milk
the Orange of the mineral wealth

*That mythical time when everybody was called Mary and there dancing on the cross-roads

Wolfe Tone · 22-10-2010 02:48PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Look at my comment, OVER TIME. Look at the freedom we have now, compared to what we could of faced. Just look at Hitlers vision for his Third Reich.

Lets look at your "heroic":rolleyes: UVF. They went to fight for freedom didnt they? They gained such a BRILLIANT appreciation for freedom that they came back and set up a nice little Orange state and discriminated against the kind of people who the fought with(Catholics, they went to help "little Catholic belgium"[as if] didn't they?)

Or even better, we have those soldiers who had so much fun fighting for freedom that they came to Ireland in the form of the Black and Tans and caused countless hardships. Where they fighting for freedom there Keith?

Forget about the Third Reich for a minute. Lets look at the orange state. There we had soldiers shooting innocents, innocents being rounded up and imprisoned for no reason, the list goes on and on. Gerrymandering,civil rights infringements etc etc all backed up by the menace of the BA. Some protectors of freedom aren't they?

They didn't fight for freedom at all ffs, just more Imperialistic bollocks.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 22-10-2010 03:11PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Lets look at your "heroic":rolleyes: UVF. They went to fight for freedom didnt they? They gained such a BRILLIANT appreciation for freedom that they came back and set up a nice little Orange state and discriminated against the kind of people who the fought with(Catholics, they went to help "little Catholic belgium"[as if] didn't they?)

Or even better, we have those soldiers who had so much fun fighting for freedom that they came to Ireland in the form of the Black and Tans and caused countless hardships. Where they fighting for freedom there Keith?

Forget about the Third Reich for a minute. Lets look at the orange state. There we had soldiers shooting innocents, innocents being rounded up and imprisoned for no reason, the list goes on and on. Gerrymandering,civil rights infringements etc etc all backed up by the menace of the BA. Some protectors of freedom aren't they?

They didn't fight for freedom at all ffs, just more Imperialistic bollocks.

To be fair it was the ruling classes who set up and manipulated the orange state not the soldiers, and most soldiers didn't kill civillians.

Obviously I would be of opposing political views to the men who joined the Ulster Volunteer force of the early 20th century, but at the end of the day they died in huge numbers fighting an open war against other soldiers at the somme for what they believed was their country. I tihnk it much more rational to save contempt for the likes of the modern UVF and the imperialist powers at the top sending pawns into battle.

Wolfe Tone · 22-10-2010 03:15PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

To be fair it was the ruling classes who set up and manipulated the orange state not the soldiers, and most soldiers didn't kill civillians.

Obviously I would be of opposing political views to the men who joined the Ulster Volunteer force of the early 20th century, but at the end of the day they died in huge numbers fighting an open war against other soldiers at the somme for what they believed was their country. I tihnk it much more rational to save contempt for the likes of the modern UVF and the imperialist powers at the top sending pawns into battle.

Keith said they went to fight for freedom.

They had no bones about fighting against it either.

jackbenimble · 22-10-2010 03:25PM

Poppys are worn in memory of all those who fought and who sacrificed themselves for The British Empire/Commonwealth. They do not signify support for any specific cause. Many will wear poppies this year thinking of those fighting and dieing in Afghanistan whilst actually opposing The UK's involvement in that conflict.

PatsytheNazi · 22-10-2010 03:34PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Look at my comment, OVER TIME. Look at the freedom we have now, compared to what we could of faced. Just look at Hitlers vision for his Third Reich.

Hitler admired the British empire. Not surprising one evil fascist admiring another evil fascist state. He borrowed some ideas from it such as concentration camps which were first used in the Boer War by the British.

gurramok · 22-10-2010 05:17PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So what you are saying is that we should not respect the memories of the hundreds of thousands of British soldiers that died, because of the actions of a few?

Firstly, why should I commemorate foreign soldiers who died post-WWII in the Falklands, NI and Iraq for example? I am not British nor am I Argentinian.

Secondly, why only British soldiers? Whats wrong with remembering Russian soldiers who destroyed 80% of the German army in WWII? I am not British nor am I Russian.

Thirdly, why are we not remembering the victims at the hands of British wars like Iraq?

KeithAFC · 22-10-2010 05:29PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Lets look at your "heroic":rolleyes: UVF. They went to fight for freedom didnt they? They gained such a BRILLIANT appreciation for freedom that they came back and set up a nice little Orange state and discriminated against the kind of people who the fought with(Catholics, they went to help "little Catholic belgium"[as if] didn't they?)

Or even better, we have those soldiers who had so much fun fighting for freedom that they came to Ireland in the form of the Black and Tans and caused countless hardships. Where they fighting for freedom there Keith?

Forget about the Third Reich for a minute. Lets look at the orange state. There we had soldiers shooting innocents, innocents being rounded up and imprisoned for no reason, the list goes on and on. Gerrymandering,civil rights infringements etc etc all backed up by the menace of the BA. Some protectors of freedom aren't they?

They didn't fight for freedom at all ffs, just more Imperialistic bollocks.

Battle Smoke summed it up.

I don't need to go into detail regarding your post now.

But you seem to putting thousands of brave men into the bracket of people high up who really abused their position they had in Northern Ireland. That isn't fair at all on the brave men who fought.

I believe all those men went to fight in WW1 to fight with their friends, to go on an adventure and to experience life and most of them got killed. I mentioned the fight for freedom regarding WW2 which was a must war.

But i will never forget our fallen heroes of WW1. They shall not grow old.

KeithAFC · 22-10-2010 05:33PM

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Hitler admired the British empire. Not surprising one evil fascist admiring another evil fascist state. He borrowed some ideas from it such as concentration camps which were first used in the Boer War by the British.

Depends what you admire them about. I admire the British empire for certain aspects.

lugha · 22-10-2010 05:35PM

gurramok wrote: »

Firstly, why should I commemorate foreign soldiers who died post-WWII in the Falklands, NI and Iraq for example? I am not British nor am I Argentinian.

Secondly, why only British soldiers? Whats wrong with remembering Russian soldiers who destroyed 80% of the German army in WWII? I am not British nor am I Russian.

Thirdly, why are we not remembering the victims at the hands of British wars like Iraq?

There is nothing wrong per se with any nation (of grouping) have a specific remembrance service for those that died in their service, rather than an all-inclusive one for all those that died. The Easter lily doesn’t also commemorate those that died fighting against Irish republicans does it?
And I expect many countries, if not all, have some ceremonies to remember just those that died whilst serving in their armed forces.

Agree or disagree with them, but many Irish people have served in the British armed forces over the last century and there is nothing amiss with them using the same means to remember them as the British people do. The real issue is the intolerance of some in this “free” country who insist that all should share their view of the poppy as being an emblem of British nationalism.

Wolfe Tone · 22-10-2010 05:40PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Battle Smoke summed it up.

I don't need to go into detail regarding your post now.

But you seem to putting thousands of brave men into the bracket of people high up who really abused their position they had in Northern Ireland. That isn't fair at all on the brave men who fought.

I believe all those men went to fight in WW1 to fight with their friends, to go on an adventure and to experience life and most of them got killed. I mentioned the fight for freedom regarding WW2 which was a must war.

But i will never forget our fallen heroes of WW1. They shall not grow old.

So they didn't go to fight for freedom then?

I dont buy into the bullsh!t of "they were following orders" because it is just that, bullsh!t.

gurramok · 22-10-2010 05:44PM

lugha wrote: »

There is nothing wrong per se with any nation (of grouping) have a specific remembrance service for those that died in their service, rather than an all-inclusive one for all those that died. The Easter lily doesn’t also commemorate those that died fighting against Irish republicans does it?
And I expect many countries, if not all, have some ceremonies to remember just those that died whilst serving in their armed forces.

Agree or disagree with them, but many Irish people have served in the British armed forces over the last century and there is nothing amiss with them using the same means to remember them as the British people do. The real issue is the intolerance of some in this “free” country who insist that all should share their view of the poppy as being an emblem of British nationalism.

This is not Britain. We have our own Remembrance ceremony to remember the Irish fallen who served in foreign armies.

The poppy remembers ALL British soldiers, big difference.

KeithAFC · 22-10-2010 05:45PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So they didn't go to fight for freedom then?

I dont buy into the bullsh!t of "they were following orders" because it is just that, bullsh!t.

In WW2, they did. The majority of them. Your trying to use the terrible people in N.I after the 40's who used N.I in the wrong way. We all agree on that. You can't put that blame on thousands of Ulster scot - Irish people who went and fought and died. And we should remember them.

And how is following orders bollocks? Don't talk such rubbish. Of course they were following orders. If they didn't go over the top, they would be shot. Young, naive men being shot. Fear is a huge thing.

So many people were afraid, that they put their hand up while jumping out of the trench to get shot in the leg or a wound to allow them to be sent home because it was such a hell hole.

Of course they followed orders.

lugha · 22-10-2010 05:50PM

gurramok wrote: »

This is not Britain. We have our own Remembrance ceremony to remember the Irish fallen who served in foreign armies.

And do you not find such a ceremony objectionable, as it doesn't remember the non-Irish?

gurramok wrote: »

The poppy remembers ALL British soldiers, big difference.

I would say, all soldiers who served Britain. And I fail to see the big difference.

Wolfe Tone · 22-10-2010 05:52PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

In WW2, they did. The majority of them. Your trying to use the terrible people in N.I after the 40's who used N.I in the wrong way. We all agree on that. You can't put that blame on thousands of Ulster scot - Irish people who went and fought and died. And we should remember them.

And how is following orders bollocks? Don't talk such rubbish. Of course they were following orders. If they didn't go over the top, they would be shot. Young, naive men being shot. Fear is a huge thing.

So many people were afraid, that they put their hand up while jumping out of the trench to get shot in the leg or a wound to allow them to be sent home because it was such a hell hole.

Of course they followed orders.

WW1 Keith, WW1.

Keith, we have a institution here that has brutalized nations for centuries. They knew that when they joined. They were just as prepared to say, shoot innocent people as to shoot the Kaisers troops.

Remember them for what? For being hoodwinked by imperialist Britain? For being forced through destitution to becoming cannon fodder?
Or, maybe for when they were done sowing the seeds for Hitler for ravaging Ireland?

KeithAFC · 22-10-2010 05:54PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

WW1 Keith, WW1.

Keith, we have a institution here that has brutalized nations for centuries. They knew that when they joined. They were just as prepared to say, shoot innocent people as to shoot the Kaisers troops.

Remember them for what? For being hoodwinked by imperialist Britain? For being forced through destitution to becoming cannon fodder?
Or, maybe for when they were done sowing the seeds for Hitler for ravaging Ireland?

To remember them for fighting for thier country or to just remember the vast amounts that died?

I can remember them for what ever i want. I don't need a republican telling me its wrong because of the Empire.

The Poppy isn't just about WW1. This has been explained plenty of times.

A Dub in Glasgo · 22-10-2010 05:57PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Poppy isn't just about WW1. This has been explained plenty of times.

That is why Irish people object to it

yellowlabrador · 22-10-2010 06:00PM

sitstill wrote: »

My mate is Irish and Catholic. His father used to be in the British Army as did his Great-Grand Father, who died in Flanders in WWI.

My friend has now volunteered to sell poppies next month for the Royal British Legion because he thinks they support veterans (including Irish ones well).

I think its kinda disgusting though. What do people think?

did the bullets discriminate?

Wolfe Tone · 22-10-2010 06:04PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

To remember them for fighting for thier country

WAIT! I thought they went to fight for

Freedom
Each Other
money
Little Catholic Belgium

But it turns out that they WERE actually fighting for Britain and her brutal Imperialism?

I can remember them for what ever i want. I don't need a republican telling me its wrong because of the Empire.

Remember them for being misguided idiots. That is what they are. The Irish people among them anyway.

The Poppy isn't just about WW1. This has been explained plenty of times.

Exactly ffs, try to keep up. It is about every one of those murderers in the British Army who went and got themselves killed.

KeithAFC · 22-10-2010 06:08PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

WAIT! I thought they went to fight for
Freedom

Each Other

money

Little Catholic Belgium

But it turns out that they WERE actually fighting for Britain and her brutal Imperialism?

Remember them for being misguided idiots. That is what they are. The Irish people among them anyway.

Exactly ffs, try to keep up. It is about every one of those murderers in the British Army who went and got themselves killed.

No. That is only your view. I don't see it like that. You can call the brave Irish people who died as idiots. I don't see them as idiots. I see them as brave men who didn't know any better but fought with dignity. And that is what i remember.

Wolfe Tone · 22-10-2010 06:12PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

No. That is only your view. I don't see it like that. You can call the brave Irish people who died as idiots. I don't see them as idiots. I see them as brave men who didn't know any better but fought with dignity. And that is what i remember.

Died with dignity? WTF.

KeithAFC · 22-10-2010 06:15PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Died with dignity? WTF.

Yes. Dignity. Many of them died with their mates and fought for each other. Not shooting some one in the head behind their back or planting a bomb near a chip shop.

Wolfe Tone · 22-10-2010 06:22PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yes. Dignity. Many of them died with their mates and fought for each other. Not shooting some one in the head behind their back or planting a bomb near a chip shop.

:rolleyes:

I don't see how getting ordered to walk across no mans land is dieing with dignity. I don't see how drowning in mud is dignified. I don't see how getting shelled to death is either. I don't see how spending months living with masses of rats is dignified.

So they fought FOR EACH OTHER now? Hah, five mins ago it was for their country.

KeithAFC · 22-10-2010 06:27PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I don't see how getting ordered to walk across no mans land is dieing with dignity. I don't see how drowning in mud is dignified. I don't see how getting shelled to death is either. I don't see how spending months living with masses of rats is dignified.

So they fought FOR EACH OTHER now? Hah, five mins ago it was for their country.

Do you want me to add all the REASONS people went to fight and die?

They all went with their friends, some went to fight for their country, some went for the experience, some went on an adventure and were naive. There is LOTS of reasons.

Iv already explained to you why i remember them.

Give me a shell blast on the battlefield than getting taken out by a bomb in a chip shop, any day of the week.

Wolfe Tone · 22-10-2010 06:30PM

Give me a shell blast on the battlefield than getting taken out by a bomb in a chip shop, any day of the week.

Personally I do not see being killed a dignified way to die, whatever the circumstances.

Selling poppies

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