Breach of Duties at a crash

limklad · 21-10-2010 11:15AM #1

I have to be honest, I do not know what are the official requirement for duties at a car crash other than call the guards. I have no medical training nor first Aid training.

But in the Penalty points system there is :
Breach of duties at a crash 5 penalty points & a Court Fine

When I looked up the rules of the road booklet on Duties in a Crash, I could find none other than a Mandatory court appearance and 5 penalty point.

when I google it this is what I find
http://www.google.ie/search?q=%22Breach+of+duties+at+a+crash%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

5 Hits and all points to "5 penalty points for breach of duties" but no explanation of what the duties are.

or reduces the search to "Duties at a crash"
http://www.google.ie/search?q=%22duties+at+a+crash%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
It adds slightly more but foreign websites are added to the list.

The Department of transport list is even far less for Road users and more on duties of other people such as traffic wardens, gardai etc.

RSA websites I get two hits but no useful information about duties at a crash
http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/Search-Results/?quicksearchquery=crash+duties

Does anybody know the official duties of drivers at a crash scene?
What is define to be a Breach of duties at a crash that requires a court appearance?
Why is there a severe lack of information by all the relevant authorities on this subject that requires a court appearance and 5 penalty points?

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2010 11:18AM

limklad wrote: »

What is define to be a Breach of duties at a crash that requires a court appearance?

No idea, I'm afraid.

I wish it included "Slowing down and causing a traffic jam so I can gawp at the wreckage" though.

limklad · 21-10-2010 11:22AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No idea, I'm afraid.

I wish it included "Slowing down and causing a traffic jam so I can gawp at the wreckage" though.

We all be in court if it involves that!!!:o It is human curiosity that get the better of us. :eek: but I understand what you mean.

Cookie_Monster · 21-10-2010 11:25AM

no idea but I would assume the following would be part of it at least

not driving off
allowing exchange of insurance details
phoning emergency services (if required)

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2010 11:26AM

The Rules of the Road lists seven things drivers Must do, so I'd guess not doing those would be the penalty points offence.

They involve staying at the scene, calling the guards and giving your details.

The other rules for drivers and the rules for other people at an accident don't include any Musts, so I think they can be taken as advice rather than duties.

PCPhoto · 21-10-2010 11:29AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The Rules of the Road lists seven things drivers Must do, so I'd guess not doing those would be the penalty points offence.

They involve
1.....staying at the scene,
2.....calling the guards and
3.....giving your details.

The other rules for drivers and the rules for other people at an accident don't include any Musts, so I think they can be taken as advice rather than duties.

any idea what the other 4 might be ???

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2010 11:31AM

The only thing I didn't list is that drivers of heavy vehicles must have a hi-viz jacket.

Read 'em yourself here.

Gophur · 21-10-2010 11:34AM

The "Rules of the Road" are not the same as the Law of the land, they are nothing more than a collation of some ideas and suggestions. Nobody has ever been prosecuted for disobeying any "Rule of the Road".

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2010 11:44AM

Gophur wrote: »

The "Rules of the Road" are not the same as the Law of the land, they are nothing more than a collation of some ideas and suggestions. Nobody has ever been prosecuted for disobeying any "Rule of the Road".

No, but when the RoR state that drivers MUST do something or other, it's because some law somewhere says so.

The RoR site lists 16 relevant Acts and more than 50 sets of Regulations issued under those acts and European legislation, so having the RoR summarize it all is very useful.

Here is the relevant provision of the 1961 act, you can do the rest yourselves.

limklad · 21-10-2010 11:58AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The Rules of the Road lists seven things drivers Must do, so I'd guess not doing those would be the penalty points offence.

They involve staying at the scene, calling the guards and giving your details.

The other rules for drivers and the rules for other people at an accident don't include any Musts, so I think they can be taken as advice rather than duties.

When You call the guards for the crash you have to give your details otherwise they do not come out to the scene of the crash and they always instruct you to stay at the scene to give a statement. So breach of Gardai instructions is in itself a penalty point offence and several other offences under the law such as not giving you name and address when asked.

I look at the booklet several times and no official duties are express other than call the gardai for other road users. Rules of the road is only a guide and not legally binding according to the Department of Transport. The Rules of the road is only making statements about those involved at the accident by other road users and under the assumption that they are able to help themselves.

What is the official requirements by Law for other road users? i.e. if the occupants are unconscious or dead and are unable to call for help. Will other road users be in breach of the Duties of an crash if they pass by because they have young kids/dependants to take care off? What are they meant to do officially and by law? Are they meant to carry out the duties of the crash driver ignoring their dependants (let them alone unsupervised) in order to help others? There is no general available help on these duties for each road users types in various situations.

Most accidents here in Ireland happen in dangerous roads where parking never safe or can cause traffic problems exacerbating the traffic situation at the scene of the accident. As most accidents the time is critical, so how do you choose if Rules of the road guide conflict? The more I look into this to the different scenarios that I seen, the more confuse I become how you are meant to react to a scene of an accident.

What under is requirement under Law is there to satisfy the "Duties at a crash"?

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2010 12:07PM

limklad wrote: »

What is the official requirements by Law for other road users?

There aren't any.

dak · 21-10-2010 12:19PM

This link explains what you must do at the scene of an accident !

http://www.rotr.ie/accidents-gardai-and-penalties/correct-behaviour-at-accident-scene/what-drivers-must-do.html

djimi · 21-10-2010 01:59PM

Gophur wrote: »

The "Rules of the Road" are not the same as the Law of the land, they are nothing more than a collation of some ideas and suggestions. Nobody has ever been prosecuted for disobeying any "Rule of the Road".

I hate this attitude, I really do. When you are learning to drive the rules of the road are your bible. You are not given a copy of the statute book and told to learn it off line for line. The rules of the road are the road laws spelt out in plain English for those of us who arent legal experts.

In the rules of the road there are "must" rules and "should" rules. "Should" laws are best practise suggestions. Break a "must" rule and you will be prosecuted.

coylemj · 21-10-2010 02:20PM

Forget the Rules of the Road, what you have to do is defined in Section 106 of the Road Traffic Act 1961, Zubeneschamali has a link to it above, this sets out what you are required to do and it's no excuse if you're prosecuted and you say that what you did or didn't do wasn't mentioned in the ROTR, its the act of parliament that counts and which will be mentioned on the summons if you're prosecuted, not page xxx of the ROTR.

There is one amendment to the 1961 act which I know about but can't remember when it was enacted, the amendment says that if someone is injured then you must report the accident to a member of the Gardai, the original act said that you only needed to report it to the Gardai if the other driver was killed or incapacitated.

djimi · 21-10-2010 02:28PM

coylemj wrote: »

Forget the Rules of the Road, what you have to do is defined in Section 106 of the Road Traffic Act 1961, Zubeneschamali has a link to it above, this sets out what you are required to do and it's no excuse if you're prosecuted and you say that what you did or didn't do wasn't mentioned in the ROTR, its the act of parliament that counts and which will be mentioned on the summons if you're prosecuted, not page xxx of the ROTR.

There is one amendment to the 1961 act which I know about but can't remember when it was enacted, the amendment says that if someone is injured then you must report the accident to a member of the Gardai, the original act said that you only needed to report it to the Gardai if the other driver was killed or incapacitated.

Is there something in the road traffic act that is not in the rules of the road or something?

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2010 02:38PM

djimi wrote: »

Is there something in the road traffic act that is not in the rules of the road or something?

No. The lads are making the true but irrelevant point that the Guards will not charge you under the Rules of the Road, Chapter 3, Section 3, they will charge you under the Road Traffic Act, 1961, Section 106.

However, unless you feel like memorizing the 16 Acts and 50+ lists of regulations, it's much easier to follow the RotR, which summarizes all of the actual law.

RotR also includes stuff which is just advice, such as, at the scene of an accident: Do remain calm. There is no law on that subject, and you won't be charged with Freaking Out At The Scene Of An Accident or anything, it's just advice. This annoys some people, who can't figure out how much of the RotR they can ignore before getting a ticket.

coylemj · 21-10-2010 02:44PM

djimi wrote: »

Is there something in the road traffic act that is not in the rules of the road or something?

Yes, quite a lot actually, take a quick scan through the 1961 Act and bear in mind that there are several amending acts plus lots of Statutory Instruments covering technical requirements for the various vehicle types as well as speed limits.

This is from the ROTR Intro, the emphasis is mine...

The overall aim of this booklet is to promote safety, good driving practice and courtesy in using our roads according to the law. It is an interpretation of the law from a road safety view. If you have a query you should check the legislation or ask a Garda.

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2010 03:16PM

coylemj wrote: »

Yes, quite a lot actually

Is there anything in there about Duties at an Accident that isn't in the RoR?

No.

MagicSean · 21-10-2010 03:33PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

There aren't any.

Why would you post this reply and then go on in another post to state the legislation. Is that not a bit of a contradiction.

Your duties at the scene of an accident are to stop and remain at the scene, exchange appropriate information and report the accident to Gardaí. There is absolutely no need to call Gardaí to the scene unless you think the other person has no insurance or licence or if there is an injury. You can exchange details and report the accident at any Garda station. You do not have to leave your car in the middle of the road to be seen. You can move it off the road so traffic can continue.

limklad · 21-10-2010 03:37PM

dak wrote: »

This link explains what you must do at the scene of an accident !

http://www.rotr.ie/accidents-gardai-and-penalties/correct-behaviour-at-accident-scene/what-drivers-must-do.html

The "Rules of the Road" are not legally binding, There is no comment to say this what you must do legally, they are only suggestions for good Road driving practice.
I want to know the exact breaches from an accident scene that causes a court appearance for all road user types. There is no specifics mentioned, it is vague, unlike seat belt, Failing to drive on the left-hand side, speeding, etc which is clear. There is no black and white other than failing to call the Gardai.

If you or another person are injured and there is no Garda at the scene, the accident must be reported to the nearest Garda station.

If the accident damages only property and there is a Garda in the immediate vicinity you must report it to the Garda. If there is no Garda available you must provide this information to the owner or the person in charge of the property. If, for any reason, neither a Garda nor the owner is immediately available you must give all relevant information at a Garda station as soon a reasonable possible.

The following would be for good practice but not legally binding for you to have a triangle for pedestrian, bicycles, car users or do the following.

You are advised to keep a disposable camera with built-in flash in your vehicle and if possible take photographs of the scene and any damage done.

Take care when moving damaged or broken-down vehicles and make every effort to warn oncoming traffic of the accident.

You can warn them by using your hazard lights.

If you need to ask for another road userÕs help to warn traffic, do so right away.

If you have a reflective advance-warning triangle, (heavy vehicles and buses must have one), place it on the road far enough from the scene of the accident to give enough warning to approaching traffic.

When placing a triangle you should take account of prevailing road conditions, traffic speed and volume. This is particularly important on motorways and dual-carriageways.

If the breakdown occurs near a bend in the road, make sure you give warning to traffic on both sides of the bend.

Leaking fuel from a crashed vehicle is dangerous, so be careful approaching any vehicle after an accident.

Carry a high visibility vest or jacket and a torch in your vehicle. If there is an accident, wear the vest or jacket and use the torch to alert other road users of your presence.

[*]

Reloc8 · 21-10-2010 03:38PM

djimi wrote: »

Is there something in the road traffic act that is not in the rules of the road or something?

The requirements are as per S. 106 Road Traffic Act 1961

106.—(1) Where injury is caused to person or property in a public place and a vehicle is involved in the occurrence of the jury (whether the use of the vehicle was or was not the cause of the injury), the following provisions shall have effect:
[GA]
( a ) if the vehicle is not stationary after the occurrence, the driver of the vehicle shall stop the vehicle;
[GA]
( b ) the driver or other person in charge of the vehicle shall keep the vehicle at or near the place of the occurrence for a period which is reasonable in all the circumstances of the case and having regard to the provisions of this section;
[GA]
( c ) the driver of the vehicle or, if he is killed or incapacitated, the person then in charge of the vehicle shall give on demand the appropriate information to a member of the Garda Síochána or, if no such member is present, to one person entitled under this section to demand such information;
[GA]
( d ) if a member of the Garda Síochána is not present at the occurrence and either—
[GA]
(i) there is no person entitled under this section to demand the information, or
[GA]
(ii) the case is one in which, as respects the sole person entitled under this section to demand the appropriate information or each of the persons so entitled, it is reasonably clear that he could not be expected to make a demand because of injury, illness, age or other disability,
[GA]
the driver of the vehicle or, if he is killed or incapacitated, the person then in charge of the vehicle shall report the occurrence as soon as possible to a member of the Garda Síochána and, if necessary, shall go for that purpose to the nearest convenient Garda Síochána station and also shall give on demand the appropriate information to the member.
[GA]

Apologies for poorly formatted quote from the section.

The Rules of the Road have no relevance here to the criminal law insofar as you can't be prosecuted for breaching them. The only offences involved in respect of duties where there is an accident are as per the above.

limklad wrote: »

I want to know the exact breaches from an accident scene that causes a court appearance for all road user types.

The above are the exact and only duties in law.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

However, unless you feel like memorizing the 16 Acts and 50+ lists of regulations, it's much easier to follow the RotR, which summarizes all of the actual law.

No. The above are all you need to know to avoid breaching the law.

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2010 03:40PM

k_mac wrote: »

Why would you post this reply and then go on in another post to state the legislation. Is that not a bit of a contradiction

No, I was answering limklad's question, which was what are the legal duties of other road users at an accident, that is, people who come across an accident who were not actually in the accident.

The answer is that there are none.

The RotR has some advice, but there are no special legal duties at the scene for anyone but the people involved in the accident.

MagicSean · 21-10-2010 03:49PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, I was answering limklad's question, which was what are the legal duties of other road users at an accident, that is, people who come across an accident who were not actually in the accident.

The answer is that there are none.

The RotR has some advice, but there are no special legal duties at the scene for anyone but the people involved in the accident.

My mistake.

meathstevie · 21-10-2010 03:56PM

Folks, please keep in mind you do not need to contact the Gardai for every minor nudge and scrape. If all involved parties are happy enough with exchanging details and are uninjured and no roads are blocked due to immobilised vehicles or debris there is no need to call any emergency services at all.

coylemj · 21-10-2010 04:13PM

meathstevie wrote: »

Folks, please keep in mind you do not need to contact the Gardai for every minor nudge and scrape. If all involved parties are happy enough with exchanging details and are uninjured and no roads are blocked due to immobilised vehicles or debris there is no need to call any emergency services at all.

Good point and neither is there a requirement to keep your cars glued to the road after a trivial accident like a rear-ender, you are only required to keep your vehicle 'at or near the place of the occurrence for a period which is reasonable in all the circumstances of the case' - Section 106 RTA 1961.

coylemj · 21-10-2010 04:18PM

Reloc8 wrote: »

The requirements are as per S. 106 Road Traffic Act 1961

The above are the exact and only duties in law.

Not true, the 1961 act has been amended by subsequent legislation which means that it is mandatory to report an accident to the Gardai if anyone has been injured, this was not the case when the 1961 act was passed, the current requirement is reflected in the relevant section (p. 139) of the current RORT....

If you or another person are injured and there is no Garda at the scene, the accident must be reported to the nearest Garda station.

This means that you cannot just hand over your details to the other driver and p**s off, if anyone has been injured you must report it.

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2010 04:20PM

Reloc8 wrote: »

The Rules of the Road have no relevance here

Except that they say exactly the same thing in plain English.

limklad · 22-10-2010 11:18AM

meathstevie wrote: »

Folks, please keep in mind you do not need to contact the Gardai for every minor nudge and scrape. If all involved parties are happy enough with exchanging details and are uninjured and no roads are blocked due to immobilised vehicles or debris there is no need to call any emergency services at all.

I recommend report the accident no matter how trivial it is to the gardai anyway, if not then, then later at the station within the day, for any future court/Insurance actions that needs to be taken. Make sure you have Insurance details/ names and address and Photo's of the accident (especially the driver of the other car. It save me once when the driver claim it was his wife who was driving ran into me.

It was reported in the Limerick leader this week, In a court case, that there was an accident, Nobody seem hurt, even when asked, everybody said they were ok, so the accident was not reported, but later on it came to attention that one young guy's back was actually broken several crushed vertebrae, after the accident he was walking around, but felt sluggish when standing up and brush it off as nothing and did not want to get the driver in more trouble. He also had no seat belt on and was not sitting properly in the SUV. The accident was not reported to the Gardai as nobody appeared hurt and the SUV had only a bumper damage. The Gardai got the conviction of "Breaches of duties at the crash" for the driver.

I also came across an incident several years ago where a young woman (18) rear ended a good neighbour old guy (next door, 80's, widowed, living alone) car on a local narrow country road, only bumper damage to his car, nobody was hurt. Two weeks later, He went to claim off her insurance for the replacement bumper and she deny it, Her parents was on holidays at the time. He lost his case as he never reported it to the gardai and had no proof that it was her. She then claimed in revenge to the gardai that he was harassing her she nearly succeeded in getting a prosecution if it was not for her sister, testifying against her, stating that her sister was with her in England getting ready for her wedding during the time frame of the alleged harassment, he did not own a phone never mind a mobile and cannot remember his own daughter phone number and he uses his Neighbour phone (Young woman parents phone) on rare occasions. Her Parents apologies for their daughter behaviour and paid for the replacement bumper after the case was dropped.

meathstevie · 22-10-2010 02:16PM

limklad wrote: »

I recommend report the accident no matter how trivial it is to the gardai anyway, if not then, then later at the station within the day, for any future court/Insurance actions that needs to be taken. Make sure you have Insurance details/ names and address and Photo's of the accident (especially the driver of the other car. It save me once when the driver claim it was his wife who was driving ran into me.

It was reported in the Limerick leader this week, In a court case, that there was an accident, Nobody seem hurt, even when asked, everybody said they were ok, so the accident was not reported, but later on it came to attention that one young guy's back was actually broken several crushed vertebrae, after the accident he was walking around, but felt sluggish when standing up and brush it off as nothing and did not want to get the driver in more trouble. He also had no seat belt on and was not sitting properly in the SUV. The accident was not reported to the Gardai as nobody appeared hurt and the SUV had only a bumper damage. The Gardai got the conviction of "Breaches of duties at the crash" for the driver.

I also came across an incident several years ago where a young woman (18) rear ended a good neighbour old guy (next door, 80's, widowed, living alone) car on a local narrow country road, only bumper damage to his car, nobody was hurt. Two weeks later, He went to claim off her insurance for the replacement bumper and she deny it, Her parents was on holidays at the time. He lost his case as he never reported it to the gardai and had no proof that it was her. She then claimed in revenge to the gardai that he was harassing her she nearly succeeded in getting a prosecution if it was not for her sister, testifying against her, stating that her sister was with her in England getting ready for her wedding during the time frame of the alleged harassment, he did not own a phone never mind a mobile and cannot remember his own daughter phone number and he uses his Neighbour phone (Young woman parents phone) on rare occasions. Her Parents apologies for their daughter behaviour and paid for the replacement bumper after the case was dropped.

There'll always be mistakes in good faith, there'll always be chancers and not all injuries will always be immedeatly obvious but those cases are the exception rather than the rule.

I'm still of the opinion that if there appear to be no injuries and the results of the collision can be moved out of the road without third party intervention that drivers/property owners should sort things out between them. If you wish to report the matter to the Gardai or PSNI depending where you are for informational purposes ( so there's a record ) do so by all means.

professore · 22-10-2010 02:27PM

meathstevie wrote: »

There'll always be mistakes in good faith, there'll always be chancers and not all injuries will always be immedeatly obvious but those cases are the exception rather than the rule.

I'm still of the opinion that if there appear to be no injuries and the results of the collision can be moved out of the road without third party intervention that drivers/property owners should sort things out between them. If you wish to report the matter to the Gardai or PSNI depending where you are for informational purposes ( so there's a record ) do so by all means.

I'm sorry but you are living in fantasy land. I have seen so many cases of people getting screwed over.

One example was my Dad who was on a narrow bridge when a neighbour in an SUV came from the other side, saw my Dad too late, and swerved and hit the ditch, causing damage to his precious vehicle. He was completely at fault and THERE WAS NO CONTACT AT ALL with my Dad's car. He begged my Dad not to say anything to the Gardai as he was a young guy and said his insurance would be sky high. My Dad agreed, since technically he was not involved the accident in the first place. About an hour later he got a call from the Gardai saying an accident had been reported and since there were no witnesses, the costs would be shared "50/50" i.e. my Dad would pay 50% of his costs (€ 3 K) :eek: and he would pay 50% of my Dad's costs (i.e. € 0). So for his good nature my Dad ended up paying this prick 1500 euro.

sean1141 · 22-10-2010 02:34PM

as far as i know for a small collision where no one appears injured and only light damage is done you can report it to a garda station but a garda dose not have to come to the scene..

i would recommend this in case you come across some chancer like in that post above who tries to deny it was them.. also take a snap of the cars where they stopped. any brake marks (not often happens with abs now days) how close cars were to center of road/ditch and a snap of insurance disk with policy number clearly visible

Breach of Duties at a crash

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