CROKE PARK AGREEMENT GONE IN MARCH

neilster · 19-10-2010 09:26AM #1

it looks like events are overtaking us ..we are hearing through the unions that after yesterdays meetings of the political leaders and the consensus approach that the EU is insisting on ......

that Croke Park will collapse with March being the date ... the political parties now accept this as inevitable cos it cant be afforded but they will bring the austerity budget through first ...

i am a clerical officer and agree that the gap between my wage and middle mgt and the professions in the public sector is too big ...for instance practically the majority of the health service would fit in this bracket

the levies and reductions have dealt with the fairness of it , ive had a 9% cut ....now tearing up the agreemnt allows more surgical cuts which are only fair and equitable

get throught the corrective budget for appearances and then throw the agreement out

I am on a low wage in the public sector and this is in my opinion the only way to deal with the high earners is free of the shackles of an agreemnt .

the flexibility and change will be got in return for job security but the absence of an agreement allows wages to get tackled

johnboy_123 · 19-10-2010 09:36AM

One word for this HOORAAYYYYY

neilster · 19-10-2010 09:45AM

johnboy_123 wrote: »

One word for this HOORAAYYYYY

as a public sector worker i would largely be in agreemnt johnboy ....us at lower end will be treated as we should be ...not the problem

i work with senior engineers (local authority) on 75k a year who had 4 meetings in a row when their mileage was cut ....they have 24 hr cover in their contracts but cant be got after 5pm Monday-Friday and at weekends forget it .....they delegate everything ..i mean everything

...they insist on supervisors (which is not in their contract ...if i get a call at 2am i expect to get paid for it) to get overtime for nightcover that is in their contract to do for nothing.

You take them on at your peril ....

this is the way to deal with them

johnboy_123 · 19-10-2010 10:04AM

Well Neilster...I think any cuts in the P.S should be compasionable...and fairly. Best way is to benchmark again

gamblor1975 · 19-10-2010 10:31AM

IF this happens it will be a sigh of relief for all the people who were dismayed at the govt. trying to insulate themselves and their CS cohorts from the pain, at the expense of all other workers.

We need to save money but more importantly we need reform of the system so that this type of thing can never happen again.

Hopefully, if the unions step to the side we will be able to modernise and improve all areas of the PS so we will have a leaner public service which is better at providing what the public needs.

There are too many people working in the PS who believe that once you are in, you can relax. All workers in the PS need to be reviewed once a year. Those who are performing should be promoted and those that are not should be warned and then shown the door if they do not improve.

The whole Public sector needs to adopt some of the learnings from how the Private sector deals with its staff. After only a couple of years,there would be a vast improvement in efficiency and morale.

People who exceed would not be told they are making others look bad as is the case in many areas of the PS where doing any extra work above your grade is frowned upon.

I believe the Public sector could learn a lot from the Private sector managment techniques which would improve it drastically, while cutting free the dead weight that everyone knows is there. A job for life should only be there if you are a good worker!

The_Honeybadger · 19-10-2010 10:32AM

To be fair Neilster if people in the PS are well paid there is usually a reason (i.e. they are well qualified or have a technically difficult job). You can't expect CO pay to be comparable. However I do agree some people higher up the food chain are significantly overpaid, I know one guy working for a semi-state company as an engineer, and my jaw almost hit the floor when he told me his salary for a relatively handy job (he freely admits he has a ridiculously easy number). I wouldn't be so sure the lowest paid won't be hit again, an ESRI report showed that this is where the biggest gap between public and private pay exists, and while cutting the higher paid seems fairer there may not be enough of them to make enough of a difference. I'm surprised to see a CS worker happy that the deal is collapsing, I doubt it is going to be good for you personally.

rua327 · 19-10-2010 10:40AM

A FAIR cut across the board, linked to your level of pay is the only fair way. Gareth Fitz was very good on Vin Browne lastnight. It is true that we pay WAY too little tax and that by trying to get it back any other way just rips off the lower paid in society.
I have relations in Belgium, and they pay over 50% tax. In return,they can claim back almost ALL their medical expenses etc. It is inevitable that this happens here too.

19-10-2010 12:11PM

neilster wrote: »

as a public sector worker i would largely be in agreemnt johnboy ....us at lower end will be treated as we should be ...not the problem

The lower end will be hit hardest as always.

Do you not remember when they hit us with pension levies yet those at assistant secratary level were left untouched becasue they were already losing their overtime payments?

P. Breathnach · 19-10-2010 12:23PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

... Do you not remember when they hit us with pension levies yet those at assistant secratary level were left untouched becasue they were already losing their overtime payments?

What's the word to describe the phenomenon of remembering things that never happened?

Stheno · 19-10-2010 12:25PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What's the word to describe the phenomenon of remembering things that never happened?

False Memory Syndrome?

Or perhaps "Tax only the higher paid, shure they pay nothing anyway compared to all of the rest of us?"

Japer · 19-10-2010 12:29PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What's the word to describe the phenomenon of remembering things that never happened?

Dunno, but I know the phenomenon of so few ( the Irish public sector ) receiving so much ( world leading pay and pensions ) for so little ( see the state of our regulator, public services etc ) never happened before and should not be happening now, as its screwing the rest of us.

Pity it will take until March before the Croke Parke agreement is torn up. It is fitting such a white elephant agreement was drawn up in the very statium ( in Berties constituency of course ) which itself cost the Irish taxpayer so much to build.....while kids go to class in prefabs and people lie on hospital trolleys.

P. Breathnach · 19-10-2010 12:31PM

Stheno wrote: »

False Memory Syndrome?

Thanks. I couldn't remember it.

RichardAnd · 19-10-2010 12:31PM

neilster wrote: »

as a public sector worker i would largely be in agreemnt johnboy ....us at lower end will be treated as we should be ...not the problem

I don't mean to frighten you but I wouldn't be so comfortable if I were you. Do you really think that cuts in the Ps will ever be fair? If cuts are made, yes the higher earners will get hit but if compulsory redundancies ever come to pass, I would wager it will be the masses in the PS (the clericals and other "lower" staff) who will go first.

If I were a clerical in the Ps right now, I would probably be keeping an eye open for another job.

Amhran Nua · 19-10-2010 01:22PM

neilster wrote: »

that Croke Park will collapse with March being the date ... the political parties now accept this as inevitable cos it cant be afforded but they will bring the austerity budget through first ...

It will be interesting to see if it does, as a useful litmus test for the incompetence versus stage management argument, along with whether or not outright going back on agreements like that provokes a severe union reaction.

johnboy_123 · 19-10-2010 01:26PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if it does, as a useful litmus test for the incompetence versus stage management argument, along with whether or not outright going back on agreements like that provokes a severe union reaction.

I think the Union will do everything to stop this including stikes...if they do I hope the Government of the day have the balls to just say grand go on strike we wont pay you simple as Maggie Thatcher

20Cent · 19-10-2010 01:34PM

johnboy_123 wrote: »

I think the Union will do everything to stop this including stikes...if they do I hope the Government of the day have the balls to just say grand go on strike we wont pay you simple as Maggie Thatcher

Unions have been pretty pathetic so far. 1 day of action and some minor disruption. Pretty much all PS workers are expecting some serious cut in December.

galway2007 · 19-10-2010 01:50PM

neilster wrote: »

it looks like events are overtaking us ..we are hearing through the unions that after yesterdays meetings of the political leaders and the consensus approach that the EU is insisting on ......

that Croke Park will collapse with March being the date ... the political parties now accept this as inevitable cos it cant be afforded but they will bring the austerity budget through first ...

i am a clerical officer and agree that the gap between my wage and middle mgt and the professions in the public sector is too big ...for instance practically the majority of the health service would fit in this bracket

the levies and reductions have dealt with the fairness of it , ive had a 9% cut ....now tearing up the agreemnt allows more surgical cuts which are only fair and equitable

get throught the corrective budget for appearances and then throw the agreement out

I am on a low wage in the public sector and this is in my opinion the only way to deal with the high earners is free of the shackles of an agreemnt .

the flexibility and change will be got in return for job security but the absence of an agreement allows wages to get tackled

this is complete crap because the position that i hold in my dept i would hear this
They is massive reform talks going on and all parties are happy at this stage

galway2007 · 19-10-2010 01:53PM

gamblor1975 wrote: »

IF this happens it will be a sigh of relief for all the people who were dismayed at the govt. trying to insulate themselves and their CS cohorts from the pain, at the expense of all other workers.

We need to save money but more importantly we need reform of the system so that this type of thing can never happen again.

Hopefully, if the unions step to the side we will be able to modernise and improve all areas of the PS so we will have a leaner public service which is better at providing what the public needs.

There are too many people working in the PS who believe that once you are in, you can relax. All workers in the PS need to be reviewed once a year. Those who are performing should be promoted and those that are not should be warned and then shown the door if they do not improve.

The whole Public sector needs to adopt some of the learnings from how the Private sector deals with its staff. After only a couple of years,there would be a vast improvement in efficiency and morale.

People who exceed would not be told they are making others look bad as is the case in many areas of the PS where doing any extra work above your grade is frowned upon.

I believe the Public sector could learn a lot from the Private sector managment techniques which would improve it drastically, while cutting free the dead weight that everyone knows is there. A job for life should only be there if you are a good worker!

They would learn how to lose 50 billion from them

ParkRunner · 19-10-2010 01:56PM

Why not give it a chance in a climate of industrial peace rather than walking away, resulting in probable carnage.

Only last week Dara Calleary T.D. said:

Action plans have now been submitted by each Department to inform the implementation body on the significant changes proposed by public service management to achieve the reforms, efficiencies and savings in each sector. The implementation body will begin its consideration of the sectoral plans next week.

http://www.onegov.ie/eng/13_10_10_-_Address_to_the_Seanad_by_Minister_of_State,_Dara_Calleary,_T_D_,_on_the_Croke_Park_Agreement.shortcut.html

Also without knowing what cuts are in the budget, the plans will have to be changed to take account of what happens in December. The change process basically cannot be separated from the Budgetary process

hobochris · 19-10-2010 01:58PM

johnboy_123 wrote: »

I think the Union will do everything to stop this including stikes...if they do I hope the Government of the day have the balls to just say grand go on strike we wont pay you simple as Maggie Thatcher

+1

A no work no pay policy would stamp out union action pretty quick.. militant workers in the public service need money as well after all.

20Cent · 19-10-2010 02:00PM

hobochris wrote: »

+1

A no work no pay policy would stamp out union action pretty quick.. militant workers in the public service need money as well after all.

That is the case already. Strikers are not paid for days striking.

galway2007 · 19-10-2010 02:00PM

EF wrote: »

Why not give it a chance in a climate of industrial peace rather than walking away, resulting in probable carnage.

Only last week Dara Calleary T.D. said:

http://www.onegov.ie/eng/13_10_10_-_Address_to_the_Seanad_by_Minister_of_State,_Dara_Calleary,_T_D_,_on_the_Croke_Park_Agreement.shortcut.html

Also without knowing what cuts are in the budget, the plans will have to be changed to take account of what happens in December. The change process basically cannot be separated from the Budgetary process

It a load of crap he is talking
i would think he works for the irish independent

hobochris · 19-10-2010 02:05PM

20Cent wrote: »

That is the case already. Strikers are not paid for days striking.

I remember being told to opposite.. but in any case hold out long enough and they will have to end their action.

20Cent · 19-10-2010 02:06PM

hobochris wrote: »

I remember being told to opposite.. but in any case hold out long enough and they will have to end their action.

You were told wrong. Strike days are taken from wages.

tunney · 19-10-2010 02:09PM

johnboy_123 wrote: »

I think the Union will do everything to stop this including stikes...if they do I hope the Government of the day have the balls to just say grand go on strike we wont pay you simple as Maggie Thatcher

Every will take a huge hit in taxes and services in Decemeber, wages will be deflated by additional tax burdens on companies. Can't see much public support for the unions and strikes.

tunney · 19-10-2010 02:10PM

20Cent wrote: »

You were told wrong. Strike days are taken from wages.

But the PS don't strike do they, work to rule being the order of the day. In the real world the work to rules would be considered not working and striking but not in PS land.

galway2007 · 19-10-2010 02:12PM

hobochris wrote: »

+1

A no work no pay policy would stamp out union action pretty quick.. militant workers in the public service need money as well after all.

It mean mammy and daddy stay at home to mind the kids
No dole payments
No day to day hospitals procedures
For god sake ye could not survive without a passport never mind the dole
The last think this country needs is a strike but i feel both public and private worker are getting close to it.
Wait till the budget and then most of yea will be calling for people to take to the streets like in France today
Yes we have 450k on the dole but people working in the private sector have not taken any hit yet from the state, the public sector have take there hit, but it is about to happen to every worker.
Yes ye have had pay cuts by greedy employers but not all of you, and there is no data to show what pay cut every single worker has took.

rebel.ranter · 19-10-2010 02:30PM

If there's income tax hikes & public sector pay cuts it could de a dour time to be in the public sector.
A double whammy, or even a multiple whammy especially if you also own a house & drink water what with a property tax & water tax.
Things are going to get pretty tough.

Count Dooku · 19-10-2010 02:50PM

galway2007 wrote: »

It mean mammy and daddy stay at home to mind the kids
No dole payments
No day to day hospitals procedures
For god sake ye could not survive without a passport never mind the dole
The last think this country needs is a strike but i feel both public and private worker are getting close to it.
Wait till the budget and then most of yea will be calling for people to take to the streets like in France today
Yes we have 450k on the dole but people working in the private sector have not taken any hit yet from the state, the public sector have take there hit, but it is about to happen to every worker.

Then PS workers will take a much bigger hit, because nobody will lend Ireland anymore
Without cuts in 2009, government would have slash PS pay much earlier

galway2007 wrote: »

Yes ye have had pay cuts by greedy employers but not all of you, and there is no data to show what pay cut every single worker has took.

What about people who had cut?
Do you mean that it must be in law, that nobody in this country has right earn more then owners of this country. ie public servants
Do you understand that more earnings in private sector means more taxes collect, while high earnings in public sector means that government has more taxes to collect?

Amhran Nua · 19-10-2010 02:56PM

galway2007 wrote: »

Yes we have 450k on the dole but people working in the private sector have not taken any hit yet from the state

It is flat out impossible to tax our way out of this. Cannot be done. Cuts are the main way forward. Where the cuts happen, this is the question.

deise blue · 19-10-2010 03:25PM

galway2007 wrote: »

this is complete crap because the position that i hold in my dept i would hear this
They is massive reform talks going on and all parties are happy at this stage

Of course it's absolute crap.

Mary Harney nailed this nonsense to the wall today as accordng to the 1 o'c news today she admitted that the HSE needed to save 1 billion to meet budgetary targets , she further added that these savings were going to be difficult to achieve as pay was protected under the Croke Park agreement.

This scenario is obviously the template for all other Ministers and their respective Departments - make savings but not from pay .

If we need to achieve a consensus budget to convince our paymasters in the EU that we are on a politically agreed path to economic stability then we are not going to achieve this by further cutting PS pay as both FG and Labour have both said that they will honour the Croke Park agreement.

CROKE PARK AGREEMENT GONE IN MARCH

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