I am probably going to be eat alive for this

18-10-2010 10:05AM #1

I cant be the only one who wonders about this....what exactly have David Drumm and Sean Fitzpatrick done ...i know about covering up loans to the Irish nationwide building society which should be tried under whatever company law that was broken....but other that that they seem to have been two men with big egos who though they were cleverer that they were.... who lent money recklessly and ran the bank they worked for in to the ground.....but can you be tried for behaving stupidity and ignoring standard banking practices?

The second thing that has me wondering is apparently David Drumm offered to give almost everything he owned to clear his debt to his former employers and the amount was very near what he owed, but that wasn't good enough.

Which leads me to believe that there is some sort of political pressure to make a public spectral of David Drumm and Sean Fitzpatrick as a way of deflecting attention from the governments and anyone elses part in the collapse of the economy.

Sean Fitzpatrick in particular seem to be portrayed as some sort of Dick Dasterly cartoon baddie?

To be clear i am not an apologist for them and if they have done wrong they should be tried and sent to jail in the same way anyone who has done wrong should be.

Or have i go this all wrong.

Any one else see the irony of the Sunday independent moralizing about bankers and Builders, when a few short years ago they lavished praise on them.

Sanjuro · 18-10-2010 10:07AM

Sean Fitzpatrick is less Dick Dasterdly than he is some sort of evil Monopoly man.

DOC09UNAM · 18-10-2010 10:10AM

I have never seen the word Apologist used before, that was actually the most interesting part of your post imo.

sbsquarepants · 18-10-2010 10:11AM

Seany? Is that you? Still posting under a fake name, you little scamp!!

drunkmonkey · 18-10-2010 10:12AM

Dibs on the shins

thee glitz · 18-10-2010 10:15AM

mariaalice wrote: »

what exactly have David Drumm and Sean Fitzpatrick done ...

covering up loans to the Irish nationwide building society which
should be tried under whatever company law that was broken.
lent money recklessly
ran the bank they worked for in to the ground
behaving stupidity
ignoring standard banking practices?
David Drumm offered to give almost everything he owned to clear his debt
to his former employers and the amount was very near what he owed

The answer's in the question

18-10-2010 10:19AM

I know what they have done wrong ...but its more what have they done wrong that they can be sent to jail for under Irish Law?

sbsquarepants · 18-10-2010 10:20AM

mariaalice wrote: »

The second thing that has me wondering is apparently David Drumm offered to give almost everything he owned to clear his debt to his former employers and the amount was very near what he owed, but that wasn't good enough.

Sean Fitzpatrick in particular seems to be some sort of Dick.

Am I the only one sees the problem with offering to pay most of what you owe, when you're still keeping a little kitty for yourself?

Also, I fixed the bit about Seany for you:D

up for anything · 18-10-2010 10:22AM

*fetches condiments*

orourkeda · 18-10-2010 10:23AM

When people call for them to be jailed I don't know exactly what for either.

geeky · 18-10-2010 11:01AM

mariaalice wrote: »

I cant be the only one who wonders about this....what exactly have David Drumm and Sean Fitzpatrick done ...i know about covering up loans to the Irish nationwide building society which should be tried under whatever company law that was broken....but other that that they seem to have been two men with big egos who though they were cleverer that they were.... who lent money recklessly and ran the bank they worked for in to the ground.....but can you be tried for behaving stupidity and ignoring standard banking practices?

The second thing that has me wondering is apparently David Drumm offered to give almost everything he owned to clear his debt to his former employers and the amount was very near what he owed, but that wasn't good enough.

Which leads me to believe that there is some sort of political pressure to make a public spectral of David Drumm and Sean Fitzpatrick as a way of deflecting attention from the governments and anyone elses part in the collapse of the economy.

Sean Fitzpatrick in particular seem to be portrayed as some sort of Dick Dasterly cartoon baddie?

To be clear i am not an apologist for them and if they have done wrong they should be tried and sent to jail in the same way anyone who has done wrong should be.

Or have i go this all wrong.

Any one else see the irony of the Sunday independent moralizing about bankers and Builders, when a few short years ago they lavished praise on them.

On David Drumm I think you're right. Guy was stupid to over-extend himself personally and part of a hugely damaging corporate culture. And of course he should ever be allowed near a boardroom again. But unless something's actually proven - and the Gardai are still investigating - it seems like he's a convenient public scapegoat.

Sean Fitzpatrick, on the other hand, is a special kind of creature altogether. Before his fall, he was known for pontificating about how overly strenuous company and bank regulation regulation was in this country (well guess what - it's to stop little f***ers like you banjaxing the country seanie, and it obviously wasn't too tough, because you managed it anyway).He also happily called for a 'brave' budget that raised taxes on the lowest paid and cut the dole while also cutting the top rate of tax. He was a totally shameless and self-interested talking head, and I always marvelled at how anyone in the media could hold their nose and repeat his nonsense.
Even after Ireland extended that catastrophic banking guarantee, he went on Marian Finiucan's show acting like a blank cheque from the Government when the chips are down was his f***ing birthright. Exactly the childish attitude - smugly wanting big brother off your back when things are going well, but crying blue murder for help when they're not - that gives Irish businesspeople a really bad name. Regardless of whether he's proven to have committed criminal acts, he personifies the worst aspects of the Celtic Tiger era businessman.

Nodin · 18-10-2010 11:01AM

mariaalice wrote: »

.....but can you be tried for behaving stupidity and ignoring standard banking practices?

In theory yes. 'Trading in a reckless manner'. You omit artificially inflating their own share price re the 'Golden circle' and misrepresenting their position with the loan of IL&P from your list, both of which are also prosecutable.

There are of course things which seem illegal but aren't, like the whole docklands thing.

dsmythy · 18-10-2010 11:32AM

The hatred for Fitzpatrick is odd. It's not his fault nobody has tossed him into jail. He's hardly going to do it himself now is he.

joebucks · 18-10-2010 11:48AM

Don't forget this little gem

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2010/09/12/story51585.asp

The sale of Anglo’s Austrian business was completed on December 19, 2008, the day after FitzPatrick resigned as chairman after his dodgy loan dealing had been uncovered.

..the Valartis annual report reveals that the Austrian operation manages about 1.6 billion Swiss francs (€1.25 billion) for about 4,000 private banking clients.

Those clients can now remain very private indeed, far away from the scrutiny of the Irish state which stepped in and nationalised Anglo Irish Bank in January 2009 in the wake of revelations about FitzPatrick concealing large loans from his shareholders.

One of the big advantages of having money on deposit with an Austrian bank is that the identity of depositors cannot be disclosed to the authorities, as Austria enjoys certain derogations from the EU Savings Directive. This was and remains a key attraction for those who deposit funds in Austria. [...]

Let’s hope those clients don’t include any Irish depositors who might owe money to Anglo, to other struggling Irish banks or to the Irish taxpayer.

Why would a bank in trouble offload one of it's most successful subsidiaries??

CEO's etc are always bang on about how they are entitled to such outrageous wages as the responsibility of the company's performance lies on their shoulders. Have we seen any accountability taken by Seanie et al?

hobochris · 18-10-2010 11:52AM

I thinking for these types some sort of ecomonic treason law should be implemented.

seamus · 18-10-2010 12:14PM

I think what has people so worked up is the scale of the fallout from their actions moreso than the actions themselves. Had Seanie's messing just led to the collapse of Anglo, we'd probably still be pissed at him, but I doubt the Sun would be hounding him like a rat.

I'm reminding somewhat of the Selby train disaster in the UK. There was huge public outcry at the time, the guy they pinned it on was turned into public enemy number one - claims that he'd tried to kill himself and nearly took hundreds of people with him, and all sorts of other things.

When the dust settled it turned out that he'd made a very simple mistake. He fell asleep at the wheel. A very serious thing to happen, indeed, but it happens to hundreds of people every day. Most people manage to wake before it happens, or they hit a barrier or they crash into the back of another vehicle. Overall they walk away from it, lesson learned.
This guy just got unlucky. He feel asleep in exactly the right circumstances for a complete disaster - jeep down an embankment onto the tracks, derailed one train into the path of another. Pure bad luck.

But the media focussed their anger onto this guy.

And that's what happened to Seanie Fitz and the like. They screwed up. Very seriously, making no apologies here, but bankers have probably been doing the same things for the last 20 years and no-one noticed. Maybe they did notice, but the papers didn't consider it particularly news-worthy. These guys however did it at exactly the wrong time and made things really bad for all of us. It doesn't help at all that they've been bull-headed and unrepentent about it, but we need to separate out the crime from the unlucky fallout.

Economic treason? Nonsense. You would need to show their actions were intentionally designed to cause damage to the country. In all likelihood their actions were intended to increase profits and income, but they gambled and they lost.

I think my point here is that if the proper controls had been in place, Seanie and his buddies wouldn't have been able to make the mistake in the first place.

But still, you know, burn him, rape his children, etc.

shawnee · 18-10-2010 12:20PM

I think Shane Ross and lot more of his buddies should be jailed with them !! He and the other journalists are milking this situation that the country finds itself in. Did'nt see these guys writing much about it three/four years ago. Now they have books out "bankers" etc. They were like the rest, too busy enjoying the seaside to know that the tide was moving out and nobody was wearing any clothes.
I am fed up of programmes/newspapers telling us what went wrong and who to blame. Sh.. happened , get over it , give us some advice and guidance on how to move on.;);)
This overhyped media stuff is causing many people who have money and would normally spend to stop because of this irrational fear.
To those people I say , you ain't gonna live forever, enjoy it.

Rented Mule · 18-10-2010 12:21PM

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

I have never seen the word Apologist used before, that was actually the most interesting part of your post imo.

Apparently, you aren't familiar with Fox News.

Pighead · 18-10-2010 12:22PM

Finding it hard to stay angry with Fitzpatrick. Not exactly sure why but think it may have something to do with the fact that he's called "Seanie"

Very hard to stay angry at a guy called Seanie. It's a kind of loveable, "let me ruffle your hair you cheeky little scamp you" type of name. Would much prefer it if he was called Reginald or Sebastian or something.

FreudianSlippers · 18-10-2010 12:24PM

You're probably going to be eaten alive for this. EATEN

Absurdum · 18-10-2010 12:50PM

back in 2006 he put a gun to loads of heads and made them buy sh1tyty gaffs in Longford

goose2005 · 18-10-2010 01:46PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Am I the only one sees the problem with offering to pay most of what you owe, when you're still keeping a little kitty for yourself?

Also, I fixed the bit about Seany for you:D

The Church paid a tenth of the child abuse compensation, the state paid the rest, and they retained their land, churches, houses and palaces. And 1,000,000 or so irish people still obey it.

I think FitzPatrick did some fiddling to keep an €80m loan off the books, but I'm not sure if he actually broke any laws.

orourkeda · 18-10-2010 01:49PM

geeky wrote: »

On David Drumm I think you're right. Guy was stupid to over-extend himself personally and part of a hugely damaging corporate culture. And of course he should ever be allowed near a boardroom again. But unless something's actually proven - and the Gardai are still investigating - it seems like he's a convenient public scapegoat.

Sean Fitzpatrick, on the other hand, is a special kind of creature altogether. Before his fall, he was known for pontificating about how overly strenuous company and bank regulation regulation was in this country (well guess what - it's to stop little f***ers like you banjaxing the country seanie, and it obviously wasn't too tough, because you managed it anyway).He also happily called for a 'brave' budget that raised taxes on the lowest paid and cut the dole while also cutting the top rate of tax. He was a totally shameless and self-interested talking head, and I always marvelled at how anyone in the media could hold their nose and repeat his nonsense.
Even after Ireland extended that catastrophic banking guarantee, he went on Marian Finiucan's show acting like a blank cheque from the Government when the chips are down was his f***ing birthright. Exactly the childish attitude - smugly wanting big brother off your back when things are going well, but crying blue murder for help when they're not - that gives Irish businesspeople a really bad name. Regardless of whether he's proven to have committed criminal acts, he personifies the worst aspects of the Celtic Tiger era businessman.

Perhaps this is part of the reason for him declaring bankruptcy in the U.S.

To have done it here would have meant a 12 year "ban" from holding a company directorship.

geeky · 18-10-2010 01:55PM

seamus wrote: »

I think what has people so worked up is the scale of the fallout from their actions moreso than the actions themselves. Had Seanie's messing just led to the collapse of Anglo, we'd probably still be pissed at him, but I doubt the Sun would be hounding him like a rat.

I'm reminding somewhat of the Selby train disaster in the UK. There was huge public outcry at the time, the guy they pinned it on was turned into public enemy number one - claims that he'd tried to kill himself and nearly took hundreds of people with him, and all sorts of other things.

When the dust settled it turned out that he'd made a very simple mistake. He fell asleep at the wheel. A very serious thing to happen, indeed, but it happens to hundreds of people every day. Most people manage to wake before it happens, or they hit a barrier or they crash into the back of another vehicle. Overall they walk away from it, lesson learned.
This guy just got unlucky. He feel asleep in exactly the right circumstances for a complete disaster - jeep down an embankment onto the tracks, derailed one train into the path of another. Pure bad luck.

But the media focussed their anger onto this guy.

And that's what happened to Seanie Fitz and the like. They screwed up. Very seriously, making no apologies here, but bankers have probably been doing the same things for the last 20 years and no-one noticed. Maybe they did notice, but the papers didn't consider it particularly news-worthy. These guys however did it at exactly the wrong time and made things really bad for all of us. It doesn't help at all that they've been bull-headed and unrepentent about it, but we need to separate out the crime from the unlucky fallout.

Economic treason? Nonsense. You would need to show their actions were intentionally designed to cause damage to the country. In all likelihood their actions were intended to increase profits and income, but they gambled and they lost.

I think my point here is that if the proper controls had been in place, Seanie and his buddies wouldn't have been able to make the mistake in the first place.

But still, you know, burn him, rape his children, etc.

You're leaving out
- €80m in director's loans for Seanie, less for Drumm.
- Shady practices designed to artificially inflate the stock price (the 'golden circle' and leaning on managers to buy shares) and hide the true cash balance 'the IL&P loans)
- The transfer of assets to wives in order to make off while set up for life.

They didn't just fall asleep at the wheel - if that had happened, we'd just be annoyed at the sector like much of the British public. These people pointed the car straight at the wall, and bailed themselves out. That's before you even go into the breathtaking sanctimony that these so-called 'captains of industry' (who never made anything in their lives other than money) displayed both before and after the collapse.

parker kent · 18-10-2010 02:36PM

Whilst they have behaved terribly, there is a large element of bandwagon jumping/passing the blame going on, as per usual. It is nice to have a pantomime villain to blame everything on.

DOC09UNAM · 19-10-2010 05:34AM

Rented Mule wrote: »

Apparently, you aren't familiar with Fox News.

Apparently I'm not.

Zebra3 · 19-10-2010 06:01AM

Tbh, there should be more hatred and contempt for our elected politicans. :mad:

How the f*ck can FF still manage to get 20-25% in the polls after how they have destroyed our country? :rolleyes:

The likes of Ahern and Biffo should be terrified to show their faces in public.

galwayrush · 19-10-2010 08:09AM

People with lots of money, even if it's in their wife's name don't go to prison here, people with small debts and no income to pay them do. Fact of life in this banana republic.So therefore, in the eyes of those who know what's best for us all, they have not broken the law .:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Elenxor · 19-10-2010 08:40AM

Bring back the Guillotine!..knit one, purl two together, knit one.....

Cheap Thrills! · 19-10-2010 09:21AM

Chop, chop OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!

*plains and purls cackling toothlessly*

up for anything · 19-10-2010 02:35PM

Sneaky bastard

Anglo Irish Bank has been granted an injunction against the wife of former chief executive David Drumm preventing her from transferring half of her property in Dublin back into Mr Drumm's name.

The bank told the court it feared this was being done to put the house beyond the reach of creditors.

Anglo Irish Bank is taking Mr Drumm and Lorraine Drumm to court over the transfer last year of a house in Malahide from their joint names to Mrs Drumm's name.

The action was due to begin next week, along with another action to recover more than €8m from Mr Drumm.

But last Thursday, Mr Drumm filed for bankruptcy in the US.
Anglo told the Commercial Court it received a letter from Mrs Drumm's solicitors last night saying she had given instructions to transfer a half share of the house back into Mr Drumm's name.

She said this was being done to settle the proceedings in relation to the house.

Under US law, an asset acquired after a person has filed for bankruptcy cannot then be brought back into the bankruptcy proceedings, the court was told.

Mr Justice Kelly granted an injunction stopping the transfer.
He set next Tuesday as a date for the US trustee in bankruptcy to come to the court and explain what she intends to do in relation to the Irish legal proceedings.

ETA: Just saw that I have been pipped at the post.

I am probably going to be eat alive for this

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