Ok, I suppose 'turned a corner' is over-used...

smash · 13-10-2010 05:13PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

yes there are, but the point is dundrum (if demand for floor space is anything to go by) is doing well. its very very simple. footfall in dundrum good = increased rents in dundrum. footfall in carrickmacross retail park bad = empty units

Footfall does not equal profits.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

this is not nessesarily the case. most retailers, especially large grocery and fashion houses typical of dundrum, have uniform prices across all store regardless of location and rental costs. profits are based on footfall, not what they can extort from customers.

Again, footfall does not equal profits. 500 kids hanging around Dundrum buying a bottle of coke each does not mean rent should increase.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i never suggested it would be 'like it was'. people stop spending money whether they have it or not in a recession.

Exactly, so why would they start spending now when there's still too much uncertainty in the country?

thebigbiffo wrote: »

87% of people in this country are working

Are 87% of the population eligible for work? I doubt it, don't grab random statistics.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

lot of people have not lost huge money and there's lots of cash jobs still knocking about in trades.

Not everyone has a trade.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

this idea that 'there's no money' is just childish. sure why dont we all just lock ourselves in our gaffs if thats the case.

People don't have credit cards any more, people are saving, you already said yourself that people don't spend in a recession.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

no it doesn't - but my point is who says they're 'raping their clients'!? my point was if they feel they can command these types of rents in dundrum, they must feel client can afford it = everyones happy.

No they don't feel the client can afford it, they feel they're entitled to it because of footfall, which does not equal profits when people aren't actually spending.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

anyway - you're just picking everything i say apart, presumably for the craic or at worst because you cant stand the idea that some things out there arent as bad as you'd like.

What are you on? What you've said isn't true. If you had said "possible glimmer of hope" maybe, but you've said we've turned a corner... we haven't.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i didn't make this news, i'm simply pointing out maybe people should stop acting like everyone and everything in this country is f'ucked when its clearly not

It clearly is, government spending is out of this world and it's not slowing down!

thebigbiffo · 13-10-2010 05:17PM

steve06 wrote: »

Footfall does not equal profits.

Again, footfall does not equal profits. 500 kids hanging around Dundrum buying a bottle of coke each does not mean rent should increase.

Exactly, so why would they start spending now when there's still too much uncertainty in the country?

Are 87% of the population eligible for work? I doubt it, don't grab random statistics.

Not everyone has a trade.

People don't have credit cards any more, people are saving, you already said yourself that people don't spend in a recession.

No they don't feel the client can afford it, they feel they're entitled to it because of footfall, which does not equal profits when people aren't actually spending.

What are you on? What you've said isn't true. If you had said "possible glimmer of hope" maybe, but you've said we've turned a corner... we haven't.

It clearly is, government spending is out of this world and it's not slowing down!

hey, you're as ugly as i pictured you!

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/31952/original/126167545854.jpg?1261677165

fontanalis · 13-10-2010 05:19PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

do you want to expand on that? cos i've a feeling your jumped up attitude is another symptom of why i believe this countries in the state it is.

you were the 'great lad' were ya? you were the one who saw all this coming?

Piss off with the condesending sh1t. I thought things weren't sustainable but never thought it would get this bad.
If your idea of great is someone who thinks what went on in Ireland was natural or sustainable you must have a very low opinion of yourself, this thread reflects that.
The economy is f***ed because so much was pumped into overpriced property and a sh1tload of debt has to be paid back and the property will never reach the values at the peak.
You can expand on your positive thinking woo woo and tell me where I'm wrong.

smash · 13-10-2010 05:20PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

hey, you're as ugly as i pictured you!

Good intelligent response. Backs up all your arguments.

thebigbiffo · 13-10-2010 05:35PM

fontanalis wrote: »

Piss off with the condesending sh1t. I thought things weren't sustainable but never thought it would get this bad.
If your idea of great is someone who thinks what went on in Ireland was natural or sustainable you must have a very low opinion of yourself, this thread reflects that.
The economy is f***ed because so much was pumped into overpriced property and a sh1tload of debt has to be paid back and the property will never reach the values at the peak.
You can expand on your positive thinking woo woo and tell me where I'm wrong.

look, it's not positive thinking woo woo - something i hate. this is about realism. this recession has just as much to do with people who didnt lose their jobs in the housing/financial bubble but were afraid they might and hoarded their money as it is with anything else. my point is you can bitch moan and talk down the country all you want (as everyone in this thread seems to enjoy doing) but it wont help.

steve06 wrote: »

Good intelligent response. Backs up all your arguments.

i've no respect for your level of intelligence after your last reponse. i thought i'd made myself clear but you insist on arguing useless points. i suspect you know exactly what i'm saying but are spoiling for a fight.

look, i'll only start a thread on here again if its to talk something or someone down, hopefully that'll keep everyone happy

fontanalis · 13-10-2010 05:56PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

look, it's not positive thinking woo woo - something i hate. this is about realism. this recession has just as much to do with people who didnt lose their jobs in the housing/financial bubble but were afraid they might and hoarded their money as it is with anything else. my point is you can bitch moan and talk down the country all you want (as everyone in this thread seems to enjoy doing) but it wont help.

i've no respect for your level of intelligence after your last reponse. i thought i'd made myself clear but you insist on arguing useless points. i suspect you know exactly what i'm saying but are spoiling for a fight.

look, i'll only start a thread on here again if its to talk something or someone down, hopefully that'll keep everyone happy

Ok, smart arsery and bitchy comments aside you're right it's about realism. The construction/property industry made up a large aprt of irelands economy for too long. Was it something like 30% to 40% of everyone in employment were employed in this sector. Teh vast majority of those jobs aren't coming back. The amount of debt that has stacked up is enormous, the amount of money that was squandered while public services declined was enormous, the amount of money that could have been directed toward proper businesses instead of cowboy overnight developers was, you guessed it, enormous. This is a massive hole Ireland has to crawl out of it and criticising people for not being positive will not help. What you seem to call talkig down i call realism, that's where we seem to disagree.

narwog81 · 13-10-2010 06:13PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

shag it, standard and poors have given us so much s'hit since the crisis that an endorsement like 'turned a corner' starts to mean something.

just to clarify one minor point, S & P didnt actually say we have "turned a corner"

from the article:

Gillian Edgeworth, an economist at Italian bank UniCredit, which often comments on the Irish economy, said she believed the Irish economy had "turned a corner" although it remained "fragile"

gurramok · 13-10-2010 06:19PM

Someone quoted shopping centres. How exactly do New Look and Forever 21 opening a couple of stores here point to a national recovery to shorten the dole queues?

Amhran Nua · 13-10-2010 06:45PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

its this kind of s'hitty attitude that starts a recession and it's only positivity that can get us out.

This is what's known as the tinker bell school of economics: just close your eyes and wish really hard. Unfortunately your cause and effect are a bit muddled up so allow me to clarify in plain English.

Lots of stuff was bought over the last ten years on tick, and now it has to be paid for. They aren't taking IOUs any more and they can't sell the stuff that was bought since its basically worthless now, so the people that make the stuff and people that provide services to them all lose their jobs in a long, winding, twisty string of dominoes that may come a'knocking at your door.

The government used the taxes from the buying and selling of stuff to increase the pay for public sector workers, that's guards, teachers, nurses, a whole strata of middle management types, welfare, and generally acted in a manner that would put a euromillions winner in Vegas to shame, as if it were going to last forever. Now they can't cut this pay because the unions will go on strike, so they're going to try to tax their way out of it. Mathematically speaking, this is impossible.

They tell us that they have hundreds of thousands of jobs lined up, and it will all be over by christmas. Where are these jobs coming from? Who will provide them? This is all apparently confidential or at least they didn't bother telling the plebs, that's you and me my friend. With almost half a million on the dole, people who were the ones making the stuff and supporting the people who made the stuff, and we'll not need that kind of stuff again for a generation, where will this growth come from? The whole economy top to bottom is geared around the making of this particular stuff, more or less useless as it is economically, courtesy of the government's decisions.

So I don't think we're near the bottom of the trouble just yet. We won't be near the bottom while the same people who got us into this are still in charge, they still think the stuff is worth a lot more than it is, and I can't see anything less than forced retirement and probably asset seizure changing their minds.

13-10-2010 07:07PM

123balltv wrote: »

turned another corner :mad: we hav'nt even hit rock bottom yet
most of my neighbours have lost at least 200k on their houses they'll never get that money back all we heard for years the country's booming it's booming yeah right it was going down big time.

imf is around the corner

Who the fcuk cares what they've "lost" on their houses? They're homes for living in, not for obsessing over costs every day.
Jesus christ.

steve06 wrote: »

People don't have credit cards any more,

I do o/
Go me, patriotically doing my part to help

southsiderosie · 13-10-2010 08:26PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Who the fcuk cares what they've "lost" on their houses? They're homes for living in, not for obsessing over costs every day.
Jesus christ.

Look, I generally think anyone who bought a home in the last eight years was foolish, but there is no denying that being significantly underwater on your house has a huge impact on economic mobility. People who are that far underwater on their homes are essentially stuck: they can't move, they can't sell, they are just stuck with their house, even if there are better economic opportunities elsewhere.

DeVore · 13-10-2010 08:46PM

Lemegeton wrote: »

im sick of hearing this bull****. This is just somebodys opinion and nothing more. until dole queues start to shorten and unemployment drops then not a damn thing has actually 'changed' in the economy.

Sorry its not just "somebody's opinion" its Standards and Poor's opinion and if you think that DOESNT mean anything you clearly dont know jacksh*t about the way the world works.

Do you think your bank managers opinion of your credit rating matters if you have to go to him every few months for more money?? You better believe it matters more than some Joe on the street.

S&P are basically the bank managers for countries.

Perception creates reality in this crazy world of makey-up money.

DeV.

smash · 13-10-2010 09:48PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i've no respect for your level of intelligence after your last reponse. i thought i'd made myself clear but you insist on arguing useless points. i suspect you know exactly what i'm saying but are spoiling for a fight.

I've no interest in a fight, but we have not turned a corner. In Dundrum, all the shops have reduced their prices, this has kept sales up but it eats into profits. So while sales are high, their profits aren't what they used to be so I can't see them saying '100% increase in rent, sure why not...' and the bottom line us that even if they did agree to pay a bit extra, it has no bearing on the recession because it isn't creating jobs or encouraging spending within their shop, it's just a landlord being a bit greedy which is the kind of thinking that got us into this mess.

DeVore · 13-10-2010 10:22PM

My example though ISNT just a "landlord being greedy". (I'll provide backup and details once I have his permission ... I'm on holidays at the moment and I was just posting off the cuff today).

If someone who is sitting at the top of such a foodchain is saying "things arent as bad as before" I perk up and listen. Everything else is just people's wishful thinking (both positive and negative).

DeV.

Amhran Nua · 14-10-2010 12:08AM

DeVore wrote: »

Perception creates reality in this crazy world of makey-up money.

So what's your perception of the quarter this recovery is meant to come from? I get the whole "its all just taken on faith" approach, but if you start calling money "makey-up" you may as well start calling every law "makey-up", as has been explained to you previously.

You can make up what you like but the paper still has to be satisfied, and belief never tallied up columns on an accountant's ledger.

smash · 14-10-2010 10:00AM

DeVore wrote: »

If someone who is sitting at the top of such a foodchain is saying "things arent as bad as before" I perk up and listen. Everything else is just people's wishful thinking (both positive and negative).

There'll always be people that are ok during a recession or come out of it quicker than others. It makes no difference to the hundreds of thousands who are unemployed or up to their eyes in debt. I know people who's business are thriving but just because it's good for them it doesn't mean the recession is over or that we've turned a corner.

Lemegeton · 14-10-2010 10:15AM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

@Lemegeton: do you think you'll wake up some morning and everyone will have a job again? your attutude suggests you believe you need to bury your head the sand until all this is over and someone knocks on your door to offer you a job? not a thing has changed in this country since this 'bulls'hit' opinion was given voice no? well how about the fact that our credit rating looks unlikely to be further downgraded by this agency meaning we wont be saddled with even more interest on our loans meaning your dole money/childrens allowance/local hospital budget/public transport/care services etc etc etc wont be cut. is this tangible enough for you?

how in the hell do you assume all that about me from my statement. you are so far off base its ridiculous. i have a job dickhead, and have been in the same job for 5 years. i have plenty of cash and the recession has had minimal impact on me. i am just sick of seeing stories like this where someone stays the economy is recovering and things are getting better and 6 month later the dole queues are longer again. of course i dont expect things to change over night but when the dole queues decrease even by a tiny amount then someone can claim we have 'turned a corner'

thebigbiffo · 14-10-2010 10:25AM

Lemegeton wrote: »

how in the hell do you assume all that about me from my statement. you are so far off base its ridiculous. i have a job dickhead, and have been in the same job for 5 years. i have plenty of cash and the recession has had minimal impact on me. i am just sick of seeing stories like this where someone stays the economy is recovering and things are getting better and 6 month later the dole queues are longer again. of course i dont expect things to change over night but when the dole queues decrease even by a tiny amount then someone can claim we have 'turned a corner'

what your problem then eh? you've a job and you're safe but you still feel the need to knock any positive development that happens in the country - as a taxpayer then you'd be happy if standard and poors we're to have a negative opinion of our chances of recovery thus more of your tax euros going to interest payments? grow up.

you're 'sick of seeing stories like this' yeah? please link to a similar story? anything where one of the most powerful financial institutions in the world gives ireland a good chance of recovery will do nicely.

btw 'dickhead'? i've been banned for less...

Lemegeton · 14-10-2010 10:38AM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

what your problem then eh? you've a job and you're safe but you still feel the need to knock any positive development that happens in the country - as a taxpayer then you'd be happy if standard and poors we're to have a negative opinion of our chances of recovery thus more of your tax euros going to interest payments? grow up.

you're 'sick of seeing stories like this' yeah? please link to a similar story? anything where one of the most powerful financial institutions in the world gives ireland a good chance of recovery will do nicely.

btw 'dickhead'? i've been banned for less...

then dont accuse me of having such a horrible attitude. so because i have a steady job i am not entitled to be outraged and angry at the state of the economy

. i would never knock any positive development but the point i am making is that i dont consider it a positive development until we see dole queues improving. and while i cant link to any stories in particular i remember at least 3 occasions in the last year where some economist or politician made statements like "we have turned a corner" or "the worst is behind us" but there is still no sign of dole queues improving.
i hope that this time we really have turned a corner but i will believe it when i see it.

smash · 14-10-2010 10:40AM

July 2010
Ireland out of recession as exports jump

And in today's news... nearly 4 months later
Low-income families 'struggling' to survive

thebigbiffo · 14-10-2010 10:42AM

fontanalis wrote: »

Ok, smart arsery and bitchy comments aside you're right it's about realism. The construction/property industry made up a large aprt of irelands economy for too long. Was it something like 30% to 40% of everyone in employment were employed in this sector. Teh vast majority of those jobs aren't coming back. The amount of debt that has stacked up is enormous, the amount of money that was squandered while public services declined was enormous, the amount of money that could have been directed toward proper businesses instead of cowboy overnight developers was, you guessed it, enormous. This is a massive hole Ireland has to crawl out of it and criticising people for not being positive will not help. What you seem to call talkig down i call realism, that's where we seem to disagree.

look you're general point is ok (but it was more like 15-20% involved directly in construction, and not all those jobs are gone either you know) but you seem to be so caught up in how bad things are in terms of national debt ad unemployment you forget that the only way out is a recovery. i'm not suggesting that things will change over night but the point of this thread was to say hey, at least it looks like we wont be screwed any further on the debt we have and S&P reckons we're better positioned to come out of this than the many naysayers would have us believe.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Look, I generally think anyone who bought a home in the last eight years was foolish, but there is no denying that being significantly underwater on your house has a huge impact on economic mobility. People who are that far underwater on their homes are essentially stuck: they can't move, they can't sell, they are just stuck with their house, even if there are better economic opportunities elsewhere.

look, saying 'anybody who bought a home in the last 8 years was stupid' is the most ridiculous statement you ever hear from people who try to position themselves as the cornerstone of wisdom. i have a family that need a permanent roof over their head. i bought it in 06 and i'm in negative equity but it makes no difference to me - i can afford my mortgage and i'm happy with my house, as are the vast majority in my position. so why was i 'stupid'? i'l be here for 10-15-20 years and alot of it in negative equity, and it wont hinder my chances of having stable financial future as long as i dont lose my job - and thats something that f'ucks up your financial future no matter what...

steve06 wrote: »

I've no interest in a fight, but we have not turned a corner. In Dundrum, all the shops have reduced their prices, this has kept sales up but it eats into profits. So while sales are high, their profits aren't what they used to be so I can't see them saying '100% increase in rent, sure why not...' and the bottom line us that even if they did agree to pay a bit extra, it has no bearing on the recession because it isn't creating jobs or encouraging spending within their shop, it's just a landlord being a bit greedy which is the kind of thinking that got us into this mess.

i'm sick of this argument - it was brought up as an example of areas of the economy that we're growing. dont look at it like i do - fine.

steve06 wrote: »

There'll always be people that are ok during a recession or come out of it quicker than others. It makes no difference to the hundreds of thousands who are unemployed or up to their eyes in debt. I know people who's business are thriving but just because it's good for them it doesn't mean the recession is over or that we've turned a corner.

that is you contradicting yourself. 'i know peoples who's businesses are thriving' in one sentence and in another stating this makes no difference for the unemployed..seriously...do even need to point out how silly that is...recovery needs thriving businesses to re-employ the unemployed, thats a basic foundation for recovery.

smash · 14-10-2010 10:47AM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

that is you contradicting yourself. 'i know peoples who's businesses are thriving' in one sentence and in another stating this makes no difference for the unemployed..seriously...do even need to point out how silly that is...recovery needs thriving businesses to re-employ the unemployed, thats a basic foundation for recovery.

No, because people I know who are doing well have their own small companies or are involved with specialised industries. They aren't looking to employ.

thebigbiffo · 14-10-2010 10:50AM

Lemegeton wrote: »

i would never knock any positive development an

Lemegeton wrote: »

im sick of hearing this bull****. This is just somebodys opinion and nothing more. until dole queues start to shorten and unemployment drops then not a damn thing has actually 'changed' in the economy.

the amount of contradiction in this thread is mental...

but in response to the rest of your post THATS MY WHOLE POINT!! it was not some local economist or politician who was talking up our chances, it was the chief economist of one of the most influential institutions in the world! that why this was a stand out story and why i started the thread.

'until you see dole queues improving'...again, thats not the point of highlighting this story. the point was to say that our dole queues should start shortening is, that we have a chance, thats its not hopeless. but that doesnt placate the people who just love turn all to a negative - as you and may others just love doing. i got jumped on in here and blatantly trolled and abused because i highlighted a positive development - thats just insane!!!

thebigbiffo · 14-10-2010 10:54AM

steve06 wrote: »

No, because people I know who are doing well have their own small companies or are involved with specialised industries. They aren't looking to employ.

nice attempt at another cover up of a silly post.

well at the very least these 'friends' of your employing themselves arent they? S&P fella used that in his statement, we have diverse and educated workforce capable of being in and creating specialised industries..

and as for 'small companies' - microsoft started with one guy ya know...

smash · 14-10-2010 11:05AM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

nice attempt at another cover up of a silly post.

well at the very least these 'friends' of your employing themselves arent they? S&P fella used that in his statement, we have diverse and educated workforce capable of being in and creating specialised industries..

and as for 'small companies' - microsoft started with one guy ya know...

Do you just skip through posts? I did originally say "There'll always be people that are ok during a recession or come out of it quicker than others." then I mentioned people I know who are doing well. They were doing well before the recession, they're still doing well now.

Every day economists are stating things that aren't true. As soon as employment rises and credit starts to flow, then we've turned a corner.

And MS started with 2 guys!

Lemegeton · 14-10-2010 11:19AM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

the amount of contradiction in this thread is mental...

but in response to the rest of your post THATS MY WHOLE POINT!! it was not some local economist or politician who was talking up our chances, it was the chief economist of one of the most influential institutions in the world! that why this was a stand out story and why i started the thread.

'until you see dole queues improving'...again, thats not the point of highlighting this story. the point was to say that our dole queues should start shortening is, that we have a chance, thats its not hopeless. but that doesnt placate the people who just love turn all to a negative - as you and may others just love doing. i got jumped on in here and blatantly trolled and abused because i highlighted a positive development - thats just insane!!!

again with the assumptions. :rolleyes: i am not being negative . i respect that coming from a world financial leader the news carries more weight than if lenihan said the same thing and i appreciate your intention was to share the good news. i am just simply saying that at the end of the day this is still just an opinion, from a very respectable and powerful source, but still an opinion. nothing in the economy has actually changed.

thebigbiffo · 14-10-2010 11:24AM

steve06 wrote: »

Do you just skip through posts? I did originally say "There'll always be people that are ok during a recession or come out of it quicker than others." then I mentioned people I know who are doing well. They were doing well before the recession, they're still doing well now.

Every day economists are stating things that aren't true. As soon as employment rises and credit starts to flow, then we've turned a corner.

And MS started with 2 guys!

ehhhhh. right. i'll stand by my point though - you know people who are doing well, long may it continue so that they can expand, increase profits and pay more taxes. this is what i'm getting at in general - its not all doom and gloom...i just think its a symtom of why we'll be stuck in this for longer than we should that people like yourself and lemegeton can find the negativity in everything even though the positives (your friend doing well) are right in front of your eyes...

fair enough - the recession wont be much better till the doles queues are shortened and taxes are a bitch atm but (and this is evidence of you skimming posts) i've said it throughout the thread - i've just pointed out a positive and you guys need to knock that wherever possible. its wrong.

smash · 14-10-2010 11:29AM

But nobody is turning positives into negatives, we're just pointing out that while there may have been a positive comment it holds no weight while circumstances haven't actually changed on the ground and in fact they will probably get worse after the next budget.

thebigbiffo · 14-10-2010 11:30AM

Lemegeton wrote: »

again with the assumptions. :rolleyes: i am not being negative . i respect that coming from a world financial leader the news carries more weight than if lenihan said the same thing and i appreciate your intention was to share the good news. i am just simply saying that at the end of the day this is still just an opinion, from a very respectable and powerful source, but still an opinion. nothing in the economy has actually changed.

jesus h christ my 2 year old is less annoying than you 2. did i f'ucking say anywhere that the economy has changed? i was very careful in my OP to state nothing is going to happen overnight - i pointed out that this is just some positive news from a respectable source.

and these 'opinions', as i've pointed out before, have the potential to cost me and you real money - so its not s a throwaway comment from this guy - it means something tangible.

can we put this to bed now. i'm simply repeating myself and my previous posts cover everything.

smash · 14-10-2010 11:46AM

Positives:

Other foreign economists also agreed with the agency's assessment, saying the Irish economy had "turned a corner".

The Standard & Poor's credit rating agency, which has consistently given Ireland negative economic outlooks, provided a distinctly upbeat assessment of our prospects yesterday.

Its chief economist, David Beers, made the comments in Washington. He said concerns about fiscal and political risks to the country were exaggerated. And he forecast that the economy would recover faster than other peripheral European countries.

"People think that the Irish political establishment may be suffering from exhaustion, reform fatigue. We actually do not detect that," he added.

Basis:

Mr Beers said: "Ireland's competitiveness is improving because the labour market is flexible; they're cutting wages and salaries. So we think that among the peripheral countries it would be the first to begin to recover.

Mr Beers said the Irish economy was likely to recover faster than other weak eurozone countries such as Portugal, Spain and Greece because it had a more flexible private sector, and foreign direct investment kept flowing into the country.

Negatives:

At the same time, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan is grappling with the prospect of generating up to €4.5bn in tax increases and spending cuts in the forthcoming Budget.

He said there could be more bad news in the banking sector, but downplayed market fears that the Government could be losing the willingness to proceed with economic reforms or to keep fiscal discipline.

she believed the Irish economy had "turned a corner" although it remained "fragile" as the Government struggled to push down the country's budget deficit.

So overall we've turned a corner because we can employ cheaper because there's so many people looking for work and this will attract foreign investment. Unfortunately it hasn't happened enough yet but may happen in the future. But with the €4.5bn in tax increases and spending cuts coming it will mean that while people might be employed they'll work for less and pay more tax. And it all depends on the private sector because the public sector wont budge.

Ok, I suppose 'turned a corner' is over-used...

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