Whingers on Frontline

Denerick · 11-10-2010 08:56PM #1

The format of this show is beginning to grate on me. Tonight they have a cast of businessmen whinging that 'the government isn't helping us out with funding'. Have I missed something about basic commercial principles? At the height of the boom this was the same lobby pushing for vast deregulation and the unravellment of the welfare/activist state. Makes me sick, honestly.

Kristopherus · 11-10-2010 08:59PM

And while you get sick, the rest of us will keep watching before making a judgement.:D:D:D

OhNoYouDidn't · 11-10-2010 09:00PM

Denerick wrote: »

The format of this show is beginning to grate on me. Tonight they have a cast of businessmen whinging that 'the government isn't helping us out with funding'. Have I missed something about basic commercial principles? At the height of the boom this was the same lobby pushing for vast deregulation and the unravellment of the welfare/activist state. Makes me sick, honestly.

Denerick, at long last we are in 100% agreement. Good man.

Shea O'Meara · 11-10-2010 09:01PM

I can see their confusion. They were promised re-opened lines of credit from the banks, which is slow in coming, due to the bail outs which defied 'basic commercial principles'.

Lenny Lovett · 11-10-2010 09:02PM

The private sector is what is keeping the country afloat financially and has been for some time. The private sector generates the cash that pays our bloated and non productive public sector. A little help from the Government would go a long way. Nobody in private enterprise is looking for a handout but many need a hand up. There is a difference!!

Liam Byrne · 11-10-2010 09:09PM

Denerick wrote: »

The format of this show is beginning to grate on me. Tonight they have a cast of businessmen whinging that 'the government isn't helping us out with funding'. Have I missed something about basic commercial principles?

Well personally I would agree with you, however this government has set a precedent of helping out commercial operations with funding, so those businessmen have every right to complain about a lack of equality based on the fact that none of them have ever graced the Galway tent.

OhNoYouDidn't · 11-10-2010 09:09PM

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

The private sector is what is keeping the country afloat financially and has been for some time. The private sector generates the cash that pays our bloated and non productive public sector. A little help from the Government would go a long way. Nobody in private enterprise is looking for a handout but many need a hand up. There is a difference!!

Then they shouldn't have lobbied so hard for regulation-lite, should they....

Can't demand the government remove itself from the commercial sector and then a year later when the arse falls out of it come running for state aid, can you?

Lenny Lovett · 11-10-2010 09:13PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Then they shouldn't have lobbied so hard for regulation-lite, should they....

Can't demand the government remove itself from the commercial sector and then a year later when the arse falls out of it come running for state aid, can you?

The private sector is wrapped up in useless regulation administered by over 1500 quangos. Don't tar us all with the bankers brush!

Denerick · 11-10-2010 09:14PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well personally I would agree with you, however this government has set a precedent of helping out commercial operations with funding, so those businessmen have every right to complain about a lack of equality based on the fact that none of them have ever graced the Galway tent.

I can certainly see what you mean. However, it baffles me that the same people who claim with such bravado that 'we will hire the people, we will make the jobs' are also on national television with their cap in hand. At the height of the boom they were rolling around in cash, benefitting from tax breaks and outright tax evasion. I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. Any businessman that requires help from the state isn't a proper businessman.

Dirk Gently · 11-10-2010 09:17PM

The show was introduced as people wanting the government to get out of their way and remove red tape so they can get on with things. I was looking forward to hearing their ideas. Turns out they want less red tape when applying for hand outs. Disappointing tbh. It just looks like they want Enterprise Ireland to take over the role of the banks.

Liam Byrne · 11-10-2010 09:19PM

Denerick wrote: »

I can certainly see what you mean. However, it baffles me that the same people who claim with such bravado that 'we will hire the people, we will make the jobs' are also on national television with their cap in hand. At the height of the boom they were rolling around in cash, benefitting from tax breaks and outright tax evasion. I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. Any businessman that requires help from the state isn't a proper businessman.

Again, I agree 100%.

The same goes for householders looking for "their NAMA". I don't want a bailout, but if someone else who had been more reckless gets one, you can be damn sure that I'd be objecting and asking why I'm not getting one.

If the government had ensured fairness and decided that everyone who took out loans and made decisions was responsible for the consequences, then this issue would not have arisen.

Unfortunately, the government not only robbed the money from us to bail out their cronies, but also "sold" the idea with lies that "it would get credit flowing".

So I would stand over anyone's right to expose the lies and corruption, as well as claim that they were being discriminated against AND lied to.

As the government are now owners of the banks, the businessmen are within their rights to ask "where the hell are the loans that you promised ?"

Lenny Lovett · 11-10-2010 09:38PM

clown bag wrote: »

It just looks like they want Enterprise Ireland to take over the role of the banks.

And what else do they do? Not a whole lot in my experience. They have grants to administer but, like every other Civil Service body they are as slow as humanly possible and grossly over staffed.

meditraitor · 11-10-2010 09:41PM

Great show, the guy on the dole who was moaning about the banks not lending him money was one of many highlights.......

Scofflaw · 11-10-2010 09:58PM

It would be nice if the process of getting funding for a startup wasn't either complicated or in the hands of cash-strapped banks. It would make it easier to start a company, what with one thing and another - many startup ideas require funding. Few can bootstrap themselves into existence, and many who try it just get themselves into a financial hole within a couple of years and go back out of business again.

Obviously, it's a bit more expensive, and a bit more risky, to give funding to startup rather than paying someone to stay on the dole - but there is an upside potential to funding startups that isn't there in funding dole payments.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Liam Byrne · 11-10-2010 10:00PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

It would be nice if the process of getting funding for a startup wasn't either complicated or in the hands of cash-strapped banks. It would make it easier to start a company, what with one thing and another - many startup ideas require funding. Few can bootstrap themselves into existence, and many who try it just get themselves into a financial hole within a couple of years and go back out of business again.

Obviously, it's a bit more expensive, and a bit more risky, to give funding to startup rather than paying someone to stay on the dole - but there is an upside potential to funding startups that isn't there in funding dole payments.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Odd that you didn't choose to comment on the fact that none of the Government's lies about "getting credit flowing" have happened.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-10-2010 10:02PM

Don't confuse your average businessman with bankers and developers. All businesses having relatively easy access to credit is a prerequisite for a growing economy.

The Government has done absolutely nothing to ensure credit was available for businesses. Successful businesses with short term cash flow problems had their credit lines closed. The banks aggravated the recession with their policies and the Government stood by and did nothing.

They're right to moan.

Scofflaw · 11-10-2010 10:07PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Odd that you didn't choose to comment on the fact that none of the Government's lies about "getting credit flowing" have happened.

It's certainly the case - but I don't see the need to complain about the obvious all the time. If you have a personal issue with my failure to be constantly outraged, perhaps it would be better conducted in some other way than making an off-topic issue of it? This isn't Frontline, after all.

regards,
Scofflaw

thebman · 12-10-2010 12:19AM

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Don't confuse your average businessman with bankers and developers. All businesses having relatively easy access to credit is a prerequisite for a growing economy.

The Government has done absolutely nothing to ensure credit was available for businesses. Successful businesses with short term cash flow problems had their credit lines closed. The banks aggravated the recession with their policies and the Government stood by and did nothing.

They're right to moan.

Not true they gave the banks billions to cover their losses during that period and watched Irish businesses go under only seeming to help propert developers get their loans re-evaluated and transferred to NAMA.

Yes yes, we need banks but we need functional ones, not zombie banks.

Where else has an idea like NAMA being tried and property markets propped up and worked.?

ei.sdraob · 12-10-2010 07:53AM

wow anyone see the opening clip?
"we have something different, the copon..."
why do some people thing they are superior to the rest of the world, some sort of uber smart whoores

anyways EI should be scrapped altogether, they are a waste of space i seen and experienced first hand, i mentioned before that i seen one company being ran by cowboy who scammed EI for alot of money in exchange for the state owning 49.9% of the "company" (note the commas, the company was setup solely to tap available funds and grants while selling bull**** and nonexistent products and services), 49.9% of zero is zero. god knows how many other "semistates" like that are out there.

Justin Collery · 12-10-2010 08:34AM

As someone who has been through the mill with EI I think a greatly simplified system would suffice.

- EI cannot determine a good idea from a bad one
This is not a criticism, nobody can. If you could be sure one idea was good and another was bad, and you were always right, you'd be a millionaire, not working in EI. Giving tax back that you have paid over the last 5 years should be enough to get anyone up an running. This should be available to everybody, with perhaps a stipulation that you show some level of activity, either sales or purchases other than paying yourself.

- Office space is the greatest freebie EI can provide
Lets put some of the NAMA bound office space to work. Having groups of people all setting up businesses together in the same area is great. They feed from each other and help each other to grow. Don't limit this office space to 1 year, having people around who have been in business for 3 or 4 years will greatly help those just starting out

- Grants
Scrap them all. Match any cash up to a max of €250k provided by outside investment

- Shows
Trade shows are important, EI should keep up the good work here

- Stability
We get the CPA so the CS get stability but it is the business community that should be getting stability. All government controlled costs (rates, electricity etc) should be reduced by 30% and a guarantee given that they will not rise for the next 5 years.

The last point is important. It looks like we are heading for 5 years of misery. Even if it means being in a worse place next year it would be much better to be growing, and feeling we are on the up for 4 of those 5 years. Get the pain over quickly, and this means deflation, and at the end of the 5 years instead of a population that feels like it's just gone 12 rounds with Mike Tyson we will have a renewed, confident, growing, indigenous business sector.

One last point that really gets me. Governments do not create jobs, people do. Government can only create the right environment in which business can grow. Forget the 100,000 job strategy, its rubbish. Concentrate in making it simple to setup businesses and the jobs will come.

JC

scr123 · 12-10-2010 09:41AM

Yes, too many whingers on that show. Did like that guy Griffin or was it Griffith, lets call him Griffin.
The printed media, radio and tv stations should throughout the month of November do concentrated free advertisements seeking ideas from people that would create businesses and as a result jobs. All submissions should be made on a single sheet of A4. All ideas should be examined throughout December by a team of 10 people like this guy Griffin, O Leary, O Reilly.
All services to be given free
On 1 January 2011 the 166 TD's should be called together in a hall and presented with the results and told its finger out time
All whingers after 31 December 2010 should be told to shut up

Tim Robbins · 12-10-2010 09:44AM

Denerick wrote: »

The format of this show is beginning to grate on me. Tonight they have a cast of businessmen whinging that 'the government isn't helping us out with funding'. Have I missed something about basic commercial principles? At the height of the boom this was the same lobby pushing for vast deregulation and the unravellment of the welfare/activist state. Makes me sick, honestly.

I agree I thought it was very whingy. Typical of the Irish me fein culture.

All those business people cared about was their own pockets. The state has a duty to use tax payers' money efficiently not just fire 100K at any start up which couldn't even be *rsed putting a business plan together.

Very little constructive criticism - just egos trying to promote their businesses.

OhNoYouDidn't · 12-10-2010 09:48AM

Should the banks be providing credit lines to existing customers? Of course.

Should the state compell them to provide credit as a condition of a bailout? Of course.

Should the government bend over backwards to help create jobs? Yes.

Is it credible listening to the Irish business class whine about the lack of state support for the mess of their creation after lobbying hard to remove regulation? No.

bijapos · 12-10-2010 09:52AM

jcollery wrote: »

Governments do not create jobs, people do. Government can only create the right environment in which business can grow. Forget the 100,000 job strategy, its rubbish. Concentrate in making it simple to setup businesses and the jobs will come.

Some good points in that post JC but the above one is the most important imo.

mossyc123 · 12-10-2010 09:54AM

The worst aspect has to be the guys who come on attacking politicians left, right and centre, insising they could do a much better job because they have "experience in the real world". These same guys whose businesses have failed (!) Pure ego. I also think the time for audience interaction has passed. It's just pointless and depressing at this stage. Much prefer Tonight with Vincent Browne. Good balanced panels of experts and politicians. If I want to hear moaning from Joe Public i'll turn on Liveline...

Liam Byrne · 12-10-2010 10:00AM

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's certainly the case - but I don't see the need to complain about the obvious all the time.

So we should just complain about the obvious (so obvious that the government ignores it) just the once, and then shut up so that the government can ignore it ?

Tipp Man · 12-10-2010 10:23AM

I don't recall any small or medium sized business owners in this country lobbying for bank deregulation in the last 10 years, or ever

Its pretty obvious how many on here have any experience whatsoever of setting up or running a business

fat__tony · 12-10-2010 10:29AM

Damn, missed this last night. :mad:

Can I watch a re-run online.

ednwireland · 12-10-2010 10:58AM

fat__tony wrote: »

Damn, missed this last night. :mad:

Can I watch a re-run online.

on the front page of the rte website

but just so you dont have to look

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1082414

ei.sdraob · 12-10-2010 11:01AM

fat__tony wrote: »

Damn, missed this last night. :mad:

Can I watch a re-run online.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1082414

----

Theres also the guy who going on about "buying Irish", i am sick of this semi-protectionist nonsense playing on peoples nationalism. I will shop where its cheapest and best quality if i want, if the local companies cant compete then it is their problem.
Like the "smart whoore" guy (he seems nice I just didnt like the whole "we irish are naturally smart" ****e clip at the start) with that hostel internet booking company who mentioned it being easier to buy products/services abroad than going thru the VAT minefield here and/or being ripped off by other companies who are being held back.

OhNoYouDidn't · 12-10-2010 11:57AM

Tipp Man wrote: »

I don't recall any small or medium sized business owners in this country lobbying for bank deregulation in the last 10 years, or ever

Its pretty obvious how many on here have any experience whatsoever of setting up or running a business

No, but they gobbled up the cheap credit when they could.

IBEC and ISME lobbied hard to remove red tape and regulation, as is their right. For the captains of Irish industry to come cap in hand looking for bailouts when it goes wrong. is somewhat duplicitious.

Whingers on Frontline

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