Woops! Minister lets slip a potential €4.3 billion in savings

squod · 08-10-2010 10:18PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

Banks certainly have failed :eek: Lehmans for example, look at what that did to the world!

What Lehmans did to the world is what Anglo Irish could do to Ireland... on an economy built almost entirely on property... it would sink the country

This isn't the case at all. Anglo was a tiny bank with massive debts. Why the government got involved with them and nationwide is a complete mystery to everyone. To compare Anglo with Lehmans is, well, imaginative to say the least.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 10:21PM

squod wrote: »

This isn't the case at all. Anglo was a tiny bank with massive debts. Why the government got involved with them of nationwide is a complete mystery to everyone. To compare Anglo with Lehmans is, well, imaginative to say the least.

It is the case, they own the majority of bad debts compared to any other bank in the country... and to let it go under would be suicide to the Irish economy over decades... if Anglo was allowed to collapse, we would be in the hands of the IMF a year ago

-Trek- · 08-10-2010 10:22PM

I understand the need to make cuts but they seriously need to be cautious not to over do it either or else there will be no possibility of growth in the economy which will serve only to make matters worse than it already is, but I'm sure they will find a way to cock this up anyway, so I wont be holding my breath :rolleyes:.

squod · 08-10-2010 10:25PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

But we did need to bail them out... that is reality, deal with it

That's the kind of attitude that's gonna sink this country.

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

It is the case, they own the majority of bad debts compared to any other bank in the country... and to let it go under would be suicide to the Irish economy over decades... if Anglo was allowed to collapse, we would be in the hands of the IMF a year ago

I dunno where to begin here. How are you reaching these conclusions? This was private debt. ie; nothing to do with us as a nation. Again, were already bailing out the other banks in the system.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 10:29PM

squod wrote: »

That's the kind of attitude that's gonna sink this country.

Bailing them out saved the country from drowning...

I dunno where to begin here. How are you reaching these conclusions? This was private debt. ie; nothing to do with us as a nation. Again, were already bailing out the other banks in the system.

Economics is not your strong point.... and this point is rediculous, "private debt" what are you talking about?? Everyones debt was private in all banks... It's everyones debt now!

squod · 08-10-2010 10:30PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

Bailing them out saved the country from drowning...

Economics is not your strong point.... and this point is rediculous, "private debt" what are you talking about?? It's everyones debt now!

Good night Cmdr Keen. Dealing with trolls isn't my strong point.

dunsandin · 08-10-2010 10:31PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

It is the case, they own the majority of bad debts compared to any other bank in the country... and to let it go under would be suicide to the Irish economy over decades... if Anglo was allowed to collapse, we would be in the hands of the IMF a year ago

A few posts back you could see the future with absolute certainty, but you can't even see the present with clarity. You state this as a fact, but it a big fat economic lie. Bondholders are the most fickle breed imaginable, and they are ten a penny. The international markets get shafted on a regular basis by both state and private entities, and yet, within a short space of time, they forget and re-invest. Anybody who likes can say this is rubbish, but it is not. The Anglo bondholders could have been left to swing, it was NONE of the states business getting involved. The state has no competence when it comes to banking, and had no business getting involved. They struggle to run FAS and the semi-states, and yet we are led to believe that suddenly they can take in hand and run a financial system. What a laugh. The Irish state is the easiest touch there is, and they have been tucked up a million times. This time they got tucked up BIG time.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 10:36PM

dunsandin wrote: »

The Anglo bondholders could have been left to swing, it was NONE of the states business getting involved. The state has no competence when it comes to banking, and had no business getting involved

Wake up call mate, they had to get involved to stop the situation reaching a point were our very own sovereignty would be at stake... this is the reality of the situation that was at hand. The alternative would've destroyed the country

KINGVictor · 08-10-2010 10:42PM

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

"We" are in a bad way because of government mismanagement and "we" are going to be a hell of a lot worse off because of a disastrous decision the government has made with NAMA. Genuinely there is no option here only to leave the place, Ireland will be worse off then the poorest of the poor countries within five years. There is no hope of a recovery because of all the taxes, every business person I know are only living on their savings and that's not going to last much longer. There is no assistance from the government to stimulate business in any shape of form and the revenue will only be happy to shut down any business that may be in difficulty. I can't wait to be out of this place.

The quoted above is unlikely to happen. Actually, unlike a lot of folks, I think Ireland will get out of this predicament sooner than people think.

You sound like someone that has made his/her mind irrespective of the possibilities that Ireland can and will recover from this. Unlike you, I tend to look at this as a problem where lessons can be learnt for the future.

Ireland as an economy has deservedly lost some of its credibility, but it is still a very good place to do business and it is still regarded highly in terms of relative competitiveness. You suggesting that it will be worse off than the poorest of countries sounds sensationalist and quite ridiculous. What I think is that in 5 years time, public spending will be adjusted to normality, public sector workers will get the pay they actually work for, there will be more concentration on improving the country's competitiveness in terms of R/D, innovation and taking advantage of the positive externalities of FDI in terms of entrepreneurship and innovation.

While you are brooding about the state of affairs in Ireland, you might want to have a look at the effects of Irish innovation in action.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1006/innovation_av.html?2832078,null,230

Grimreaper666 · 08-10-2010 10:48PM

KINGVictor wrote: »

The quoted above is unlikely to happen. Actually, unlike a lot of folks, I think Ireland will get out of this predicament sooner than people think.

You sound like someone that has made his/her mind irrespective of the possibilities that Ireland can and will recover from this. Unlike you, I tend to look at this as a problem where lessons can be learnt for the future.

Ireland as an economy has deservedly lost some of its credibility, but it is still a very good place to do business and it is still regarded highly in terms of relative competitiveness. You suggesting that it will be worse off than the poorest of countries sounds sensationalist and quite ridiculous. What I think is that in 5 years time, public spending will be adjusted to normality, public sector workers will get the pay they actually work for, there will be more concentration on improving the country's competitiveness in terms of R/D, innovation and taking advantage of the positive externalities of FDI in terms of entrepreneurship and innovation.

While you are brooding about the state of affairs in Ireland, you might want to have a look at the effects of Irish innovation in action.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1006/innovation_av.html?2832078,null,230

I for one, won't be holding my breath. RTE is only a mouthpiece for FF spin. I wouldn't believe a word they have to say ever again.

dunsandin · 08-10-2010 10:54PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

Where did bondholders come into it? Were we talking about bondholders... NO! True though that we are the laughing stock of the world when it comes to them...

The whole Anglo debacle is about one thing- the bondholders - if you don't see that, you see nothing. The Irish state institutions are terrified of appearing "poor" and unable to meet their obligations. There are a lot of people like that-all hat and no cattle- who are terrified of appearing poor, while being stony broke keeping up that illusion. I appear pis5 poor, much to my kids despair, but i'm not, I have a lot of friends, who appear outwardly wealthy, who are flat broke. They are terrified of just coming out and saying they can''t afford to repay their debts. If they did, the world would not end, terms would be re-negotiated and life would go on. Our govt' is terrified of the truth, and the truth would have set them free.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 10:55PM

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

I for one, won't be holding my breath. RTE is only a mouthpiece for FF spin. I wouldn't believe a word they have to say ever again.

RTE programmes such as Prime Time and The Frontline have been giving FF a good hiding over the past couple of years, and their news is just as good... so I don't see were your getting that from...

LevelSpirit · 08-10-2010 10:58PM

A quick sharp shock is needed instead of many more cuts every year.

Levy of 5% - Everyone is included, no matter what their income.
Reduce social welfare payments by 5%.
Remove tax relief on rent.
Remove mortgage interest relief.
Have a Property tax.
Water charges.
Put road tax onto fuel instead - Enough to double the current road tax take (they know how much fuel is sold in a year).
10c tax on a pint.
10c tax on cigarettes.

Half TDs salaries while we are running a deficit.

We all suffer together.
All sorts of people will cry foul.
People will get over it.
Job done.

dunsandin · 08-10-2010 11:01PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

RTE programmes such as Prime Time and The Frontline have been giving FF a good hiding over the past couple of years, and their news is just as good... so I don't see were your getting that from...

I work for the cream of Irish Industry, and at the moment, I am swamped with work. My criteria for accepting a contract from a client company currently is : are they about to go bust? A lot are, many aren't, its not all bad, our biggest impediment as a nation is our effed up state system.
Take a drive around my workplace-the industrial estates of Ireland, and the amount of closed doors is scary. We have inovation in spades, but if all the rewards(money)of this innovation is poured into a useless debt, it is all worthless. If you owe 1 million, and earn a thousand a week, people would say you were earning a fortune, but you are still sunk by debt.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 11:01PM

LevelSpirit wrote: »

A quick sharp shock is needed instead of many more cuts every year.

Levy of 5% - Everyone is included, no matter what their income.
Reduce social welfare payments by 5%.
Remove tax relief on rent.
Remove mortgage interest relief.
Have a Property tax.
Water charges.
Put road tax onto fuel instead - Enough to double the current road tax take (they know how much fuel is sold in a year).
10c tax on a pint.
10c tax on cigarettes.

Half TDs salaries while we are running a deficit.

We all suffer together.
All sorts of people will cry foul.
People will get over it.
Job done.

Read your first policy, didn't read anymore

dunsandin · 08-10-2010 11:02PM

LevelSpirit wrote: »

A quick sharp shock is needed instead of many more cuts every year.

Levy of 5% - Everyone is included, no matter what their income.
Reduce social welfare payments by 5%.
Remove tax relief on rent.
Remove mortgage interest relief.
Have a Property tax.
Water charges.
Put road tax onto fuel instead - Enough to double the current road tax take (they know how much fuel is sold in a year).
10c tax on a pint.
10c tax on cigarettes.

Half TDs salaries while we are running a deficit.

We all suffer together.
All sorts of people will cry foul.
People will get over it.
Job done.

You have now passed your PSV test and are fully qualified to drive a taxi.:)

Grimreaper666 · 08-10-2010 11:03PM

LevelSpirit wrote: »

A quick sharp shock is needed instead of many more cuts every year.

Levy of 5% - Everyone is included, no matter what their income.
Reduce social welfare payments by 5%.
Remove tax relief on rent.
Remove mortgage interest relief.
Have a Property tax.
Water charges.
Put road tax onto fuel instead - Enough to double the current road tax take (they know how much fuel is sold in a year).
10c tax on a pint.
10c tax on cigarettes.

Half TDs salaries while we are running a deficit.

We all suffer together.
All sorts of people will cry foul.
People will get over it.
Job done.

But that's just my point, why should the ordinary worker have to suffer for the sins of others?

LevelSpirit · 08-10-2010 11:05PM

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

But that's just my point, why should the ordinary worker have to suffer for the sins of others?

.....

LevelSpirit wrote: »

A quick sharp shock is needed instead of many more cuts every year.

Levy of 5% - Everyone is included, no matter what their income.
Reduce social welfare payments by 5%.
Remove tax relief on rent.
Remove mortgage interest relief.
Have a Property tax.
Water charges.
Put road tax onto fuel instead - Enough to double the current road tax take (they know how much fuel is sold in a year).
10c tax on a pint.
10c tax on cigarettes.

Half TDs salaries while we are running a deficit.

We all suffer together.
All sorts of people will cry foul.
People will get over it.
Job done.

dunsandin · 08-10-2010 11:08PM

You can feck off and suffer for anglo on your own Level, I won't be joining you willingly.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 11:10PM

dunsandin wrote: »

You can feck off and suffer for anglo on your own Level, I won't be joining you willingly.

You are suffering for Anglo though, everyone is... so your point is null

dunsandin · 08-10-2010 11:10PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

If we don't, evryone pays the ultimate price of being poor...

Jesus man, what don't you get! Have you been laid off, benefits cut or something? If thats the case, I have sympathy for you... but don't let your anger descend into rubbish! Doesn't help anyone

Reallly? I somehow doubt everyone will suffer. You are right about descending into rubbish though, please stop it.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 11:12PM

dunsandin wrote: »

Reallly? I somehow doubt everyone will suffer. You are right about descending into rubbish though, please stop it.

I can't stop you descending into rubbish... much as I would like to... just not possible... you have my sympathy

LevelSpirit · 08-10-2010 11:12PM

dunsandin wrote: »

You can feck off and suffer for anglo on your own Level, I won't be joining you willingly.

You better emigrate then. You have to pay your taxes if you live here. Dont let the door hit you on the way out.

dunsandin · 08-10-2010 11:13PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

You are suffering for Anglo though, everyone is... so your point is null

Am I really? How am I suffering??? It affects me not a jot. In fact, a recession benefits me greatly. So again, you are wrong.

squod · 08-10-2010 11:14PM

LevelSpirit wrote: »

A quick sharp shock is needed instead of many more cuts every year.

Levy of 5% - Everyone is included, no matter what their income.
Reduce social welfare payments by 5%.
Remove tax relief on rent.
Remove mortgage interest relief.
Have a Property tax.
Water charges.
Put road tax onto fuel instead - Enough to double the current road tax take (they know how much fuel is sold in a year).
10c tax on a pint.
10c tax on cigarettes.

Half TDs salaries while we are running a deficit.

We all suffer together.
All sorts of people will cry foul.
People will get over it.
Job done.

You do know how much this debt is? We'd have to have full employment and then a load more migrant workers to begin to pay it back. Thing is, were in a recession. We just bailed Anglo in a recession. €86bn doesn't come from five percent levies on 1.5 million workers.

Amhran Nua · 08-10-2010 11:14PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

"NAMA" was something that couldn't be avoided.... without NAMA, at this stage we would have no banking system.... and in a lot worse state than we are

Debt for equity swap, look it up, its what every country in the same position has done in history, and what should have been done here. Why do you think we have the red braces brigade openly mocking our clueless Minister for Finance?

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

Banks certainly have failed :eek: Lehmans for example, look at what that did to the world!

The US has closed hundreds of banks in the meantime. Save the party political broadcast for the next Árd fheis. If you can manage to peel An Taoiseach off the hotel room floor in time to deliver it.

Ouijaboard · 08-10-2010 11:16PM

dunsandin wrote: »

In the US, upwards of 100 banks have failed and been allowed to fail. Anglo was a private entity, with private profits. Suddenly it became a Public entity with public losses. Because people are goldfish, the theory was spun that Anglo was "systemic" and could not be allowed to fail, and so the state(us) stepped in to absorb the losses-losses that belonged to private shareholders and private bondholders, with, not matter how much the spin doctors would like us to believe, no systemic value to Ireland.
If you are a student of history, cast your mind back to the last country that did what we have done - it was Japan, at the end of its last property bubble. The Japanese have since described their Govts actions as utterly wrong. It led to a massive transfer of wealth from the public purse to private coffers and apart from the huge damage the bail-out caused (and is still causing) to the Japanese economy, it did nothing to help Japans economy, in fact it set Japan back decades. We have been led into the same economic cul-de-sac, and it is a case of foolish history being repeated.

This is a brilliant post! Pity the opposition could not have been so clear and consise when we were arguing over the merits of bailouts!
Live by the sword, die by the sword! The fall of Anglo should not have been presented to us as nuclear winter and for that I will never trust FF again.

The laws of capitalism should have been allowed operate without interference and we would have recovered much faster. I still can't really believe the Irish people fell for the spin the government put on it. We love to pride ourselves on how smart we Irish are, wheras the reality is we Irish arent very smart at all.

Some saw through it but I agree with the sentiments that the Irish media in general and the RTE six one news FF mouthpiece in particular have a lot to be responsible for!

LevelSpirit · 08-10-2010 11:16PM

squod wrote: »

You do know how much this debt is? We'd have to have full employment and then a load more migrant workers to begin to pay it back. Thing is, were in a recession. We just bailed Anglo in a recession. €86bn doesn't come from five percent levies on 1.5 million workers.

I think you'll find it will make more of a dent in the deficit than the pussyfooting around that is going on now.

Well spotted though. We are in a recession. Recessions dont last forever. Really - they dont.

dunsandin · 08-10-2010 11:18PM

LevelSpirit wrote: »

You better emigrate then. You have to pay your taxes if you live here. Dont let the door hit you on the way out.

So you are saying that I will have to raise my prices to my clients to cover the extra expense, fair enough. How does that affect me? This is getting sillier by the minute. You are argueing high finance from a PAYE mindset. And you guys have the solution to our economic problems!!!! Good luck with that. I'm going nowhere, I will just end up owning more - I'm on the other side, in a recession, I do better, in a boom, I do worse, but still pretty good.

Grimreaper666 · 08-10-2010 11:20PM

It has to be said that some posters only come on here to discredit people with valid points. It looks like FF has it's own little network of spindoctors on here talking a serious amount of sh!te. I'd hate to be on a sinking ship with ye lot, ye'd be partying on as the ship sinks but no doubt FF will look after ye too.

Woops! Minister lets slip a potential €4.3 billion in savings

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