Woops! Minister lets slip a potential €4.3 billion in savings

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 08:43PM #1

This is only 'savings' bare in mind... ie, cuts in expenditure... could be a lot of civil servants out of work with that...

This doesn't include their taxation strategy to bring in income... no doubt tax payers will be nailed to the wall in the next budget also.

Story: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/o-cuiv-points-to-43bn-budget-haircut-476928.html

Biggins · 08-10-2010 08:50PM

I'm sure savings can be made across the board in places.
We are in a bad way, we have to dig ourselves out.

All we can hope is for more clarity and honesty in what the government is doing, more openness with the people. Up to now its certainly lacking and thus partly why FF are going to get the kicking in the next election, they are going to get.

If 4.3 billion means a ward or two (or more) stays open, I'm all for it.
I want those savings to go to vital services though, not spent on more massive weekly wages for "advisor's".

Grimreaper666 · 08-10-2010 08:59PM

Biggins wrote: »

I'm sure savings can be made across the board in places.
We are in a bad way, we have to dig ourselves out.

"

"We" are in a bad way because of government mismanagement and "we" are going to be a hell of a lot worse off because of a disastrous decision the government has made with NAMA. Genuinely there is no option here only to leave the place, Ireland will be worse off then the poorest of the poor countries within five years. There is no hope of a recovery because of all the taxes, every business person I know are only living on their savings and that's not going to last much longer. There is no assistance from the government to stimulate business in any shape of form and the revenue will only be happy to shut down any business that may be in difficulty. I can't wait to be out of this place.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 09:02PM

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

"We" are in a bad way because of government mismanagement and "we" are going to be a hell of a lot worse off because of a disastrous decision the government has made with NAMA. Genuinely there is no option here only to leave the place, Ireland will be worse off then the poorest of the poor countries within five years. There is no hope of a recovery because of all the taxes, every business person I know are only living on their savings and that's not going to last much longer. There is no assistance from the government to stimulate business in any shape of form and the revenue will only be happy to shut down any business that may be in difficulty. I can't wait to be out of this place.

"NAMA" was something that couldn't be avoided.... without NAMA, at this stage we would have no banking system.... and in a lot worse state than we are

Biggins · 08-10-2010 09:03PM

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

"We" are in a bad way because of government mismanagement...

No argument there. Not all can go though and not all want to.
I don't blame any person if they chose to leave but for those that have that option and still decide to stay, fair play to them too!

Grimreaper666 · 08-10-2010 09:05PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

"NAMA" was something that couldn't be avoided.... without NAMA, at this stage we would have no banking system.... and in a lot worse state than we are

All the banks are doing is taking in our money, there is no banking system and all they did was lied to Lenihan to get him to cover their asses. The banks should have been left go to hell and new banks set up. We're never going to see the end of NAMA, there's so much sh!t coming down the line it's scary!!

bleg · 08-10-2010 09:06PM

Eamon O Cuiv is one of the most useless Ministers this state has ever had.

starbelgrade · 08-10-2010 09:06PM

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

, Ireland will be worse off then the poorest of the poor countries within five years.

Eh. No. It won't.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 09:07PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Eh. No. It won't.

This is true

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 09:09PM

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

All the banks are doing is taking in our money, there is no banking system and all they did was lied to Lenihan to get him to cover their asses. The banks should have been left go to hell and new banks set up. We're never going to see the end of NAMA, there's so much sh!t coming down the line it's scary!!

May I ask your alternative to NAMA?

Grimreaper666 · 08-10-2010 09:09PM

Biggins wrote: »

No argument there. Not all can go though and not all want to.
I don't blame any person if they chose to leave but for those that have that option and still decide to stay, fair play to them too!

I'm just really sorry for them Biggins because most people are going to have to pay so much for the profit of others who'll walk away with millions at their expense.

The really sad thing is that most of these people never even got a taste of the so called Celtic Tiger and now they have to pay dearly for something that they never benefited from, it beggars belief really.

Grimreaper666 · 08-10-2010 09:12PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Eh. No. It won't.

Yes it will, it is already as we can clearly see, the country's going down the tubes and quickly.

A new banking system should have been put in place with proper rules.

Biggins · 08-10-2010 09:12PM

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

...The really sad thing is that most of these people never even got a taste of the so called Celtic Tiger and now they have to pay dearly for something that they benefited from, it beggars belief really.

Indeed, we are handing down to kids not even born yet, a future generation of debt that we in our lifetime will probably not see the end of.

What a gift to our future islanders!

stepbar · 08-10-2010 09:16PM

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

"We" are in a bad way because of government mismanagement and "we" are going to be a hell of a lot worse off because of a disastrous decision the government has made with NAMA. Genuinely there is no option here only to leave the place, Ireland will be worse off then the poorest of the poor countries within five years. There is no hope of a recovery because of all the taxes, every business person I know are only living on their savings and that's not going to last much longer. There is no assistance from the government to stimulate business in any shape of form and the revenue will only be happy to shut down any business that may be in difficulty. I can't wait to be out of this place.

Rats.... Sinking ship... Good luck to you.... <sigh>

starbelgrade · 08-10-2010 09:16PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

This is true

We won't even be worse off than the poorest countries in Europe. Things aren't great now, but in reality, they aren't actually that bad at all. There are measures that can & probably will be taken to ensure that it doesn't get much worse & then we'll move on from there.

One of the main problems with this country is that everybody - and I mean everybody from politicians to the working man, got lazy, uncompetitive & greedy. We got used to getting paid too much for poor service & got way too used to having easy access to credit.

Sure. Businesses are closing & people are losing jobs, but they are jobs in oversubscribed sectors in businesses that either had no cutting edge in any sense, or lost it along the way.

These businesses & jobs will soon enough be replaced by leaner businesses supplying new goods & services, or supplying goods & services that failed businesses did, but at much more competitive prices.

And then in 20 years time, when it all starts to boom again, we'll soon be back to this point where it all seems like doom & gloom and the world is about to end.

It's all swings & roundabouts really, because rarely, if ever do humans learn much from the lessons of history.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 09:20PM

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

"We" are in a bad way because of government mismanagement and "we" are going to be a hell of a lot worse off because of a disastrous decision the government has made with NAMA. Genuinely there is no option here only to leave the place, Ireland will be worse off then the poorest of the poor countries within five years. There is no hope of a recovery because of all the taxes, every business person I know are only living on their savings and that's not going to last much longer. There is no assistance from the government to stimulate business in any shape of form and the revenue will only be happy to shut down any business that may be in difficulty. I can't wait to be out of this place.

TBH, its people with this type of attitude that's going to prolong the crisis...
I accept that a lot of people have been affected by the situation (myself included). But talking like that is not going to achieve anything! quite the opposite...

starbelgrade · 08-10-2010 09:27PM

If things are so bad, it makes you wonder how people can post from the comfort & warmth their homes & afford an internet connection.

squod · 08-10-2010 09:34PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

If things are so bad, it makes you wonder how people can post from the comfort & warmth their homes & afford an internet connection.

Enjoy it while it lasts. Our future owners are dead down on free speaking internet message boards.

KINGVictor · 08-10-2010 09:35PM

Biggins wrote: »

I'm sure savings can be made across the board in places.
We are in a bad way, we have to dig ourselves out.

All we can hope is for more clarity and honesty in what the government is doing, more openness with the people. Up to now its certainly lacking and thus partly why FF are going to get the kicking in the next election, they are going to get.

If 4.3 billion means a ward or two (or more) stays open, I'm all for it.
I want those saving to go to vital services though, not spent on more massive weekly wages for "advisor's".

I couldn't agree more. The government have to make cuts to balance the books, to revive the current ailing economy and also meet its obligations of the EU SGP of deficit no higher than 3%. If it means cuts in the short/medium run to achieve long term objectives, it has be done.

The keyword there is clarity and honesty about the cuts and maybe of equal importance is the fact that the government/associated policy makers and guilty bank officials/developers that took advantage of an abysmal and unregulated economic system learn to take ownership of their decisions and actions.

starbelgrade · 08-10-2010 09:37PM

squod wrote: »

Enjoy it while it lasts. Our future owners are dead down on free speaking internet message boards.

The Redsocks?

stepbar · 08-10-2010 09:40PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

If things are so bad, it makes you wonder how people can post from the comfort & warmth their homes & afford an internet connection.

Or god forbid post from the comfort of a barstool and a full pint of Carlsberg! Lol

gizmo · 08-10-2010 09:53PM

Well on a brighter note, Retail sales rose 1.3% in August compared with the same month last year as the amount of cars, clothing and footwear being sold increased. Personally I'm looking forward to the figures from around Christmas to see how bad things are for people.

squod · 08-10-2010 09:54PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

May I ask your alternative to NAMA?

A couple of years back there some private banks with some bad debts and the only national assets we had were locked up in a museum.
Fast forward to now and there's a load of state ''owned'' banks with bad debts and a number of quangos looking after them. Our 'national assets' have grown to include gem like housing estates in Limerick and glass bottling plants in poxy Ringsend.

Truth is there was no need to bail Anglo. Would the banking system have collapsed because it failed? Well by looking at the amount of money we have given to BOI and AIB anyway, I'd say no. Is there an alternative to NAMA. Yes, a smaller NAMA that didn't include the vast debts of Anglo. A NAMA beag if you like.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 09:57PM

squod wrote: »

A couple of years back there some private banks with some bad debts and the only national assets we had were locked up in a museum.
Fast forward to now and there's a load of state ''owned'' banks with bad debts and a number of quangos looking after them. Our 'national assets' have grown to include gem like housing estates in Limerick and glass bottling plants in poxy Ringsend.

Truth is there was no need to bail Anglo. Would the banking system have collapsed because it failed? Well by looking at the amount of money we have given to BOI and AIB anyway, I'd say no. Is there an alternative to NAMA. Yes, a smaller NAMA that didn't include the vast debts of Anglo. A NAMA beag if you like.

The unfortunate reply is, yes, we needed to bail Anglo out on the back of its property portfolio which represented over 30% of all property loans in Ireland... to let it go under would've been catastrophic! The term 'to big to fail' comes to mind :mad:

squod · 08-10-2010 09:59PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

The unfortunate reply is, yes, we needed to bail Anglo out on the back of its property portfolio which represented over 30% of all property loans in Ireland... to let it go under would've been catastrophic! The term 'to big to fail' comes to mind :mad:

That simply isn't the case.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 10:01PM

squod wrote: »

That simply isn't the case.

Explain...

squod · 08-10-2010 10:05PM

How do you make out we had to? Banks have failed before, what sense was there in bailing a bank with debts that equalled half our GDP.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 10:08PM

squod wrote: »

How do you make out we had to? Banks have failed before, what sense was there in bailing a bank with debts that equalled half our GDP.

Banks certainly have failed :eek: Lehmans for example, look at what that did to the world!

What Lehmans did to the world is what Anglo Irish could do to Ireland... on an economy built almost entirely on property... it would sink the country

stepbar · 08-10-2010 10:14PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

The unfortunate reply is, yes, we needed to bail Anglo out on the back of its property portfolio which represented over 30% of all property loans in Ireland... to let it go under would've been catastrophic! The term 'to big to fail' comes to mind :mad:

Sorry but we didn't "need" to bail out Anglo. IMO Anglo was nothing more than a "boutique" bank. FFS they didn't even provide basic banking services. Property is a fairly tangible asset... It's the intangible assets I'd be more worried about(I.e. The companies up and down the country) and their ability to trade.

bobblepuzzle · 08-10-2010 10:15PM

stepbar wrote: »

Sorry but we didn't "need" to bail out Anglo. IMO Anglo was nothing more than a "boutique" bank. FFS they didn't even provide basic banking services. Property is a fairly tangible asset... It's the intangible assets I'd be more worried about(I.e. The companies up and down the country) and their qbility to trade.

But we did need to bail them out... that is reality, deal with it

dunsandin · 08-10-2010 10:16PM

In the US, upwards of 100 banks have failed and been allowed to fail. Anglo was a private entity, with private profits. Suddenly it became a Public entity with public losses. Because people are goldfish, the theory was spun that Anglo was "systemic" and could not be allowed to fail, and so the state(us) stepped in to absorb the losses-losses that belonged to private shareholders and private bondholders, with, not matter how much the spin doctors would like us to believe, no systemic value to Ireland.
If you are a student of history, cast your mind back to the last country that did what we have done - it was Japan, at the end of its last property bubble. The Japanese have since described their Govts actions as utterly wrong. It led to a massive transfer of wealth from the public purse to private coffers and apart from the huge damage the bail-out caused (and is still causing) to the Japanese economy, it did nothing to help Japans economy, in fact it set Japan back decades. We have been led into the same economic cul-de-sac, and it is a case of foolish history being repeated.

Woops! Minister lets slip a potential €4.3 billion in savings

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