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TV transmitters in NI post DSO

  • 03-10-2010 12:31AM
    #1
    Peter Henderson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭


    Does anyone have an up to date list of all the transmitters in NI post DSO ?

    I've been wondering about this as it appears some of the analogue relays will not be repaced with digital ones. For example, I can't find any info. on small low power sites such as Bangor, Conlig, or Newtownards.

    There's a fairly comprehensive analogue list on Mike Brown's website, MB21


«13

Comments

  • #2
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,260 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    Does anyone have an up to date list of all the transmitters in NI post DSO ?

    Nothing official from Ofcom yet. NI is probably 2 years away from ASO, looking like Oct 2012 based on what the Minister said in the Dáil last week and the plan that North and South will switchover in conjunction with each other. I'd guess not everything has been finalised between the two jurisdictions yet so there may not be an up to date list of sites and their details yet. Also Ofcom indicated last year that NI would probably switchover in 1 day (like the Ch. Islands this Nov) unlike the current 14 day switchover process in the UK today.


  • #3
    sesswhat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭sesswhat


    Here are three results from the www.digitaluk.co.uk postcde checker which show that all three sites are included in the digital plans at this stage, if only for the two PSB muxes and the HD Mux.

    Newtownards
    Conlig
    Bangor

    Other transmitters are listed here.


  • #4
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    So the relays only wind up with Two SD ond One HD multiplex despite having four legacy frequencies available to them (plus additional scope for sharing frequencies with other nearby relays) ? :(
    The Cush wrote: »
    NI would probably switchover in 1 day (like the Ch. Islands this Nov) .

    Thought CI were last on the list :confused:


  • #5
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,260 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    So the relays only wind up with Two SD ond One HD multiplex despite having four legacy frequencies available to them (plus additional scope for sharing frequencies with other nearby relays) ? :(

    Freeview lite, just like the other 1,000+ relays around the UK. The commercial multiplex operators were asked some years ago by Ofcom if the wanted capacity at the relay sites but did not take up the offer to cover the remaining 8-10% of the UK population. I guess the economics of it did not add up.
    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Thought CI were last on the list :confused:
    Channel Islands switchover date released

    http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/transmitternetwork/transmitter_groups/fremontpoint


  • #6
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    TV3 beancounter relations.


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  • #7
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    All main transmitters and relay stations in Northern Ireland (from the provisional list currently on Digital UK's website) will remain in service post-DSO in Northern Ireland. Unlike however in the south and across the Irish Sea, no new transmission sites are planned.

    All transmitter and relay sites will not require an aerial switch come DSO to receive all services except Plumbridge, which is changing from Group C/D to Group B.

    • Plumbridge is a small relay just outside the village of the same name, serving a part of the Glenelly Valley in the Sperrin Mountains that is shielded from the Strabane relay (there is another relay station a few miles east, funnily enough called "Glenelly Valley" near the village of Cranagh), RTÉ there, at least on VHF, can be received from Truskmore though I'm not sure how reliable UHF is. Anyway, the reason for such an awkward change is that presently two of the four frequencies used at Plumbridge lie above E62. The draft plan was to use a new frequency at E48 (along with E52 and E56) but now they plan to use E50 for the BBC-A multiplex, E46 for the UTV/C4 multiplex and E43 for the HD multiplex.
    • The Derrygonnelly relay in Co. Fermanagh (serving the village of the same name) will become a Group B relay from a current Group E, but aerials shouldn't require changing from analogue installations.
    Some relays will be changing to new frequencies from their current analogue broadcasts, but will stay in the same aerial group. Kilkeel and Gortnalee will be two that'll effect some viewers in the Republic. Also a few border relays were cleared for significantly higher powers than what they now have for analogue (up to 250W ERP) but I'd doubt they'll be on such powers eventually unless interference becomes a problem.

    Ofcom a few years back did offer the owners of the SDN (Mux A) and Arqiva (Muxs C & D) additional frequencies to expand their coverage at some relay sites, but declined at the time to take them. That isn't to say that they won't take at least some of them up in future, but they won't at the moment at least. Off the top of my head, the transmission sites in Northern Ireland they were offered additional frequencies were...

    • Black Mountain
    • Carnmoney Hill
    • Larne
    • Newcastle
    • Londonderry
    • Strabane
    • Camlough
    • Kilkeel
    If additional commercial multiplexes were to come on line at L/Derry, it'll go from a Group B (for analogue 1-4) to wideband.

    Another additional problem will be concerning the coverage of the commercial multiplex from all three main sites. They will all be broadcasting at lower powers than the PSB multiplexes. At Divis, some places (particularly along the Down coast) may get co-channel interference with multiplexes on the same frequencies from Caldbeck. There shouldn't be many problems from Limavady though I did a postcode check back in the Summer on some locations in Derry city which showed a weakening of COM multiplex coverage due to a "reception change", but I'm not sure what this might be unless it concerns the Fanad relay in north Co. Donegal. At Brougher Mountain the COM multiplexes are being broadcast at 10db less power compared to the PSB multiplexes (at Divis and Limavady it's 3db), this is because the COM multiplexes are using the same frequencies as the PSB multiplex from Divis, but interference from Divis in the Brougher service area will still likely limit reception of the COM multiplexes further if the Digital UK reception predictor is to be believed. There's possible problems in store in Omagh, parts of mid & south Co. Tyrone and also south Co. Fermanagh. It looks like that could be a headache.


  • #8
    reboot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭reboot


    lawhec wrote: »
    All main transmitters and relay stations in Northern Ireland (from the provisional list currently on Digital UK's website) will remain in service post-DSO in Northern Ireland. Unlike however in the south and across the Irish Sea, no new transmission sites are planned.

    All transmitter and relay sites will not require an aerial switch come DSO to receive all services except Plumbridge, which is changing from Group C/D to Group B.

    • Plumbridge is a small relay just outside the village of the same name, serving a part of the Glenelly Valley in the Sperrin Mountains that is shielded from the Strabane relay (there is another relay station a few miles east, funnily enough called "Glenelly Valley" near the village of Cranagh), RTÉ there, at least on VHF, can be received from Truskmore though I'm not sure how reliable UHF is. Anyway, the reason for such an awkward change is that presently two of the four frequencies used at Plumbridge lie above E62. The draft plan was to use a new frequency at E48 (along with E52 and E56) but now they plan to use E50 for the BBC-A multiplex, E46 for the UTV/C4 multiplex and E43 for the HD multiplex.
    • The Derrygonnelly relay in Co. Fermanagh (serving the village of the same name) will become a Group B relay from a current Group E, but aerials shouldn't require changing from analogue installations.
    Some relays will be changing to new frequencies from their current analogue broadcasts, but will stay in the same aerial group. Kilkeel and Gortnalee will be two that'll effect some viewers in the Republic. Also a few border relays were cleared for significantly higher powers than what they now have for analogue (up to 250W ERP) but I'd doubt they'll be on such powers eventually unless interference becomes a problem.

    Ofcom a few years back did offer the owners of the SDN (Mux A) and Arqiva (Muxs C & D) additional frequencies to expand their coverage at some relay sites, but declined at the time to take them. That isn't to say that they won't take at least some of them up in future, but they won't at the moment at least. Off the top of my head, the transmission sites in Northern Ireland they were offered additional frequencies were...

    • Black Mountain
    • Carnmoney Hill
    • Larne
    • Newcastle
    • Londonderry
    • Strabane
    • Camlough
    • Kilkeel
    If additional commercial multiplexes were to come on line at L/Derry, it'll go from a Group B (for analogue 1-4) to wideband.

    Another additional problem will be concerning the coverage of the commercial multiplex from all three main sites. They will all be broadcasting at lower powers than the PSB multiplexes. At Divis, some places (particularly along the Down coast) may get co-channel interference with multiplexes on the same frequencies from Caldbeck. There shouldn't be many problems from Limavady though I did a postcode check back in the Summer on some locations in Derry city which showed a weakening of COM multiplex coverage due to a "reception change", but I'm not sure what this might be unless it concerns the Fanad relay in north Co. Donegal. At Brougher Mountain the COM multiplexes are being broadcast at 10db less power compared to the PSB multiplexes (at Divis and Limavady it's 3db), this is because the COM multiplexes are using the same frequencies as the PSB multiplex from Divis, but interference from Divis in the Brougher service area will still likely limit reception of the COM multiplexes further if the Digital UK reception predictor is to be believed. There's possible problems in store in Omagh, parts of mid & south Co. Tyrone and also south Co. Fermanagh. It looks like that could be a headache.
    Might I humble suggest it is worth taking a look at Freeview(Lite) from Isle of Mann if you are near the South East coast,available on a piece of wet string,or in bad weather Group B (Yellow)Vertical Polarisation, wide band Amp in my case,channels 43 ITV and 46 BBC Soon to go HD .


  • #9
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,243 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I don't understand the purpose of changing Killowen mountain to DTT, I thought its sole function was to supply Kilkeel with a signal from Divis?? I would have expected satellite links would take over the function of Killowen Mountain when freeview reaches Kilkeel.

    Also, the Kilkeel allocations are different on the Digital UK website compared to other websites I've seen or any Arquiva documents I've seen about DSO. Still in Group B however.


  • #10
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    They don't have satellite feeds for all of Freeview.

    AFAIK backup feed on main UK sites is a second fibre or microwave link from a different direction.

    Some existing "relays" may be fed via multi-hop terrestrial Microwave links. So it's possible (Guessing) that there would be a microwave link between Killowen and Kilkeel if there is LOS.

    There have been experiments and trials, but mostly DTT "relays" from what I can see are not relays (Off air rebroadcast) but just mini-DTT sites fed by microwave or fibre carrying the MPEG-TS for each mux. Some might nowadays use MPEG_TS receivers and ASI to feed the DTT modulator via off air reception, but not old style "analogue" Frequency shifting (transposing), so it's possible Killkee will work of Killowen like that.

    I don't think UK uses any sites fed entirely by Satellite like some countries have.


  • #11
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,243 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    The Benagh relay is itself fed from Kilkeel which looks a bit tenuous. If they were going to use microwave links I'd be suprised if they went via such a high site but in any case, why would they not just turn Killowen Mountain into a microwave relay site instead of a UHF active deflector site when freeview comes around?

    And this thread from over on Digitalspy suggests that some multiplexes at least have used off-air rebroadcasting: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1007410


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  • #12
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    As I explained "off-air" is possible. But it's not cheap and simple like Analogue is.


  • #13
    reslfj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭reslfj


    watty wrote: »
    .... There have been experiments and trials, but mostly DTT "relays" from what I can see are not relays (Off air rebroadcast) but just mini-DTT sites .....

    Receivning and retransmitting on another channel is not very different from analogue relays.

    Even some new sites are real relays. Skelmersdale is such a brand new relay, receiving from Winter Hill on ch 62H,59H and54H and retransmitting the three PSB muxes on ch 51V, 48V and 52V. The antennas are clearly seen on this picture (from MB21.co.uk)

    skelmersdale-lfj-20090925-01.jpg


    For NI, Ofcom has a map of the TX sites with colour codes for each TX/DSO group.

    The ERP will in most cases be less than the current analogue ERP of each relay.
    Note that the channels 30-37 and 61-69 will not be used for DTT post DSO.

    Lars :)


  • #14
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    You don't have a picture of what is INSIDE the box?


  • #15
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,260 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    reslfj wrote: »
    Note that the channels 30-37 and 61-69 will not be used for DTT post DSO.

    UHF Ch 31-37 could be used for 2 national DTT muxes from 97 sites using DVB-T2 post ASO as stated by Ofcom.


  • #16
    reslfj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭reslfj


    The Cush wrote: »
    UHF Ch 31-37 could be used for 2 national DTT muxes from 97 sites using DVB-T2 post ASO as stated by Ofcom.


    But
    • not for the 3 PSB UK-muxes and
    • only if the Ofcom auction is won by a broadcast network operator.
    • only if SFN operations is used.
    In addition it may be possible to create one large SFN, if Fr,Be,Nl accepts the use of channel 36.

    Lars :)


  • #17
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,260 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    reslfj wrote: »
    The Cush wrote: »
    reslfj wrote: »
    Note that the channels 30-37 and 61-69 will not be used for DTT post DSO. Lars :)
    UHF Ch 31-37 could be used for 2 national DTT muxes from 97 sites using DVB-T2 post ASO as stated by Ofcom.

    But
    • not for the 3 PSB UK-muxes and
    • only if the Ofcom auction is won by a broadcast network operator.
    • only if SFN operations is used.
    In addition it may be possible to create one large SFN, if Fr,Be,Nl accepts the use of channel 36.

    Lars :)

    Ofcom has stated in its consultation the multiplexes could be used to migrate the existing DVT-T/MPEG-2 muxes to DVB-T2. Ofcom has made no final decision on this band yet as it will not be available until after ASO.
    4.54 One or two new DTT multiplexes in the 600 MHz band operating with DVB-T2 and MPEG-4 would not only be able to offer a wide range of new services but could also facilitate the transition to these new technologies of existing multiplexes. Only one of the current DTT multiplexes operates with DVB-T2 and MPEG-4; the remaining five could convert to these new technologies but at the cost of disrupting their existing services. Their conversion to DVB-T2 and MPEG-4 could be accelerated directly by using the 600 MHz band or indirectly by the more widespread availability of appropriate receivers that would follow from the use of these technologies to develop new DTT services in the band.

    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/600mhz_geographic/


  • #18
    reslfj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭reslfj


    The Cush wrote: »
    Ofcom has stated in its consultation the multiplexes could be used to migrate the existing DVT-T/MPEG-2 muxes to DVB-T2.

    I did not - an do not now - read this as a promise of free spectrum, but rather an example of the potential use of this spectrum - after the DD auction.
    I do however expect the 600MHz spectrum to fetch a low auction price and in the end be used for DTT - so there may not be any real problem.

    If Ofcom in say a year will accelerate the T2 conversion the channels 31-34 (and to some extend 35+37 too) will be available in very large parts of the UK after the TV regions Anglia and Central has DSO'ed in 2011.
    In fact channel 63-65 (and even 66-69) will be available until well into 2013 in most places.

    But with the financial problems of today ???????

    Lars :)


  • #19
    reslfj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭reslfj


    watty wrote: »
    You don't have a picture of what is INSIDE the box?

    No. But take a look at this Granada DSO info or this Llanddona info. Some few relays are linefeed.

    I think it is fair to assume the rest are rebroadcast 'off air' ?

    Lars :)


  • #20
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,482 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Interesting, Winter Hill has 70 relays, that is more than the whole of the Irish DTT service.


  • #21
    Peter Henderson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭Peter Henderson


    Just found this over at UKfree.TV,the whole list of transmitters and their switchover dates in NI:

    http://www.ukfree.tv/closedown.php

    Can't see any anomalies.

    Wonder if there's going to be complaints with the fact that NI's second city is going to have a transmitter that's Freeview Lite in nature ? Or do most people in Derry City receive their signals from Limavady ? I wonder will installers use the Londonderry transmitter even if Limivady is available ? Are people even aware as to what freeview Lite is ?


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  • #22
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,260 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    Just found this over at UKfree.TV,the whole list of transmitters and their switchover dates in NI:

    http://www.ukfree.tv/closedown.php
    I'd take those 2013 dates with a large pinch of salt. According to the Minister last week we're switching off analogue by Oct 2012 and the plan is to switchoff in conjunction with NI.


  • #23
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    Or do most people in Derry City receive their signals from Limavady ? I wonder will installers use the Londonderry transmitter even if Limivady is available ?

    Dont know Derry that well but I daresay that recently installed aerials would point at the Londonderry TX (I gather its roughly in the same direction as RTE's Holywell hill TX) whereas much older installations would be pointed towards Limavady (Seeing as how its been around that longer). What part of the city (given that its hilly in places) one is in and whether one is more interested in having full UK Freeview than RTE (although a second aerial and a diplexer will probably get both) are probably factors as well.
    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    Wonder if there's going to be complaints with the fact that NI's second city is going to have a transmitter that's Freeview Lite in nature ?
    Probably but then the situation in parts of NI's first city reliant on Carnmoney hill is just as bad (and in many places RTE isint quite as readily available to compensate)


  • #24
    reslfj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭reslfj


    The Cush wrote: »
    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    Just found this over at UKfree.
    I'd take those 2013 dates with a large pinch of salt. .

    UKfree is a private site and its info is often not very reliable. Brian made the list as his own best estimate well before DSO started in the UK.

    There are not official NI dates yet - just the aim at 'just after the Olympics' (or October 2012).

    Use the official site http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/ for information - most of it is valid. For NI DSO is 2 years into the future and a lot can change. It is eg. likely that clearing the 800 MHz band will be an integrated part of such a late DSO.

    Lars :)


  • #25
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,260 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    reslfj wrote: »
    For NI DSO is 2 years into the future and a lot can change. It is eg. likely that clearing the 800 MHz band will be an integrated part of such a late DSO.

    Ireland's Digital Dividend spectrum is now expected to be available to mobile operators from early 2013 with ASO in Oct 2012.


  • #26
    Peter Henderson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭Peter Henderson


    but then the situation in parts of NI's first city reliant on Carnmoney hill is just as bad

    Indeed Mike, I just wonder how many people around here realize that they're going to be missing over half their channels becuse their TV aerial points towards Carnmoney Hill instead of Divis ?

    Freeview reception from divis in Jordanstown isn't bad for about 98% of the time, and only suffers when there's a lift on. Post DSO, I reckon it'll be perfect from Divis.

    Still, I suppose a lot of people wont even be aware of that fact and perfect signals from Channel 5 and News 24 might be all they could ever want.

    The March 2013 date does seem an awfully long way off though. I will assume the 2012 date (October) on Digital UK's website is a more accurate one. After Christmas we'll be talking about "later next year".

    Another problem around here will be when clermont Cairn turn off their analogue signals. I wonder how many viewers realize they'll need an Mpeg 4 receiver to continue viewing ?


  • #27
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,260 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    Another problem around here will be when clermont Cairn turn off their analogue signals. I wonder how many viewers realize they'll need an Mpeg 4 receiver to continue viewing ?

    A freeview-HD receiver will be required to receive the freeview-HD channels, which will be MPEG-4 compatible and so should receive the Irish channels also. Killing two birds the one ... etc.

    For example Black Briar has been posting today about his new freeview-HD TV (like a kid with a new toy :D and why not ;)) which is receiving both the Irish DTT tests and freeview.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68362389#post68362389
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68362426#post68362426
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68362788#post68362788


  • #28
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    reboot wrote: »
    Might I humble suggest it is worth taking a look at Freeview(Lite) from Isle of Mann if you are near the South East coast,available on a piece of wet string,or in bad weather Group B (Yellow)Vertical Polarisation, wide band Amp in my case,channels 43 ITV and 46 BBC Soon to go HD .
    Of course, parts of the Co. Down and Co. Antrim coasts might be able to get services from Britain and IoM TX's the same way cross-border transmissions carry in Ireland.


  • #29
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    To_be_confirmed wrote: »
    I don't understand the purpose of changing Killowen mountain to DTT, I thought its sole function was to supply Kilkeel with a signal from Divis?? I would have expected satellite links would take over the function of Killowen Mountain when freeview reaches Kilkeel.

    Also, the Kilkeel allocations are different on the Digital UK website compared to other websites I've seen or any Arquiva documents I've seen about DSO. Still in Group B however.
    Killowen Mtn.'s function isn't solely to feed Kilkeel (though that is it's primary purpose), I'd assume some viewers take a feed directly off it as it has a reasonable ERP for a relay as well, also other "link" relays in Britain have been or are planning to be converting as well.
    The allocations on the Digital UK website are a "latest update", they have changed from around a year or two ago at some relay sites.


  • #30
    Peter Henderson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭Peter Henderson


    The Cush wrote: »
    A freeview-HD receiver will be required to receive the freeview-HD channels, which will be MPEG-4 compatible and so should receive the Irish channels also. Killing two birds the one ... etc.

    For example Black Briar has been posting today about his new freeview-HD TV (like a kid with a new toy :D and why not ;)) which is receiving both the Irish DTT tests and freeview.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68362389#post68362389
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68362426#post68362426
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68362788#post68362788

    Indeed Cush, but how many people around here will be aware of that ?

    The reason why a lot of viewers around here have their aerials pointing towrds Carnmoney Hill instead of Divis is rather like the situation in Derry. Carnmoney Hill is roughly in the same direction as Clermont Cairn. Since both are vertically polerized, you can kill two birds with the one stone so to speak.

    But they're going to wonder what's happened in October 2012 !


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  • #31
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,260 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Peter Henderson wrote: »
    Indeed Cush, but how many people around here will be aware of that ?

    ...

    But they're going to wonder what's happened in October 2012 !

    Part of the MoU is a plan for a coordinated analogue switchoff information campaign both side of the border but there are always those who tend not to take notice until it slaps them in the face.


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