50 billion bailout due to wasters in private sector

dean21 · 30-09-2010 08:46AM #1

Has any other country had a private sector that has done this to there country for pure greed.
We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account and it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state.
And worse we are still waiting for some of them to be put in Jail.

ei.sdraob · 30-09-2010 08:49AM

dean21 wrote:

We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account

i hear the worlds smallest flute playing

dean21 wrote:

it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state

1. how many years it would take to payback the 45 billion a year being run up by public sector and welfare, by your very same logic?

2. the government, regulator and central bank are not private entities :rolleyes: put the blame now squarely where it belongs

Cookie_Monster · 30-09-2010 08:50AM

ah, but its the public sector watchdog who is really at fault

and the gov for even bothering to bail them out rather than simply let them take the hit

Amhran Nua · 30-09-2010 08:52AM

dean21 wrote: »

We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account and it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state.

Just on the subject here, what percentage would you say of the public sector has first, second, or even third mortgages from these banks? A high or low number? I know the banks loved to hand out loans to those with presumably guaranteed job security...

Mad Benny · 30-09-2010 08:53AM

You obviously haven't read this op

ardmacha · 30-09-2010 08:55AM

The government is not the public sector, it represents you, the citizens.

murphaph · 30-09-2010 09:01AM

ardmacha wrote: »

The government is not the public sector, it represents you, the citizens.

but the government is made up of public servants

xavidub · 30-09-2010 09:02AM

The Public Sector can not exist without the Private Sector. That's where the money for Public Services comes from. The Private sector can sometimes do things better than the Public sector and vice versa and sometimes one sector is larger than it needs to be.

However, the Private Sector can not exist without the Public Sector. That's who provides safety, security, education for the workforce, health services for sick workers etc etc. If it was really so easy to run a company in countries without these services then HP would be in Baghdad and Microsoft in Kabul and Wyeth in Khartoum. But they aren't because they want to have lots of state provided services that they aren't willing to pay for. Well, someone has to pay for those things.

These arguments are like asking someone whether he would rather lose his arms or his legs. I rather keep both thanks.

Amhran Nua · 30-09-2010 09:04AM

xavidub wrote: »

That's who provides safety, security, education for the workforce, health services for sick workers etc etc.

Technically you could farm those out to the private sector.

Permabear · 30-09-2010 09:04AM

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Stercus Accidit · 30-09-2010 09:07AM

I want someone to blame!

I'm PS myself, and I blame the PS for wrecking the PS, the PS has ruined this country, death to the PS, PS forever!

That public V private row distracted people once already, isn't it about time people focussed on the real problems, and I think they are, this PvP nonsense is a distraction and will help nothing.

ei.sdraob · 30-09-2010 09:09AM

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I want someone to blame!

I'm PS myself, and I blame the PS for wrecking the PS, the PS has ruined this country, death to the PS, PS forever!

That public V private row distracted people once already, isn't it about time people focussed on the real problems, and I think they are, this PvP nonsense is a distraction and will help nothing.

We should all join our brothers in the public service and close shop on private enterprise

sure it worked out great in USSR before :P

Permabear · 30-09-2010 09:14AM

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xavidub · 30-09-2010 09:14AM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Technically you could farm those out to the private sector.

Yes you can, and we have all seen how well that benefits those in society who 'can't be turned into a profit'.

There are lots of things that the state does that will never be profitable. Delivering letters to the Dingle Peninsula for example. Or trying to make someone's last days comfortable.

I have chosen to live in a country that refuses to value everything on how much can be made out of it. Those that disagree can perhaps move to places like New Mexico where there are vastly less taxes and services. But the Irish electorate has not yet chosen to go down that route and shows no inclination to do so. Quite the opposite if the latest opinion polls are accurate.

And most of the time when things like prison services are privatised, they only make money by being heavily subsidised and tend to abandon all but the core elements of the service, thus placing those costs back on the taxpayer. Like private hospitals that only are interested in doing routine and uncomplicated procedures but then claim to be 'profitable'.

steve22 · 30-09-2010 09:15AM

donegalfella wrote: »

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- that figure always makes me laugh! "average" is a great word...

ei.sdraob · 30-09-2010 09:20AM

steve22 wrote: »

- that figure always makes me laugh! "average" is a great word...

If you give us detailed salary data (CSO doesnt include healthcare sector btw) i am sure me and others be happy to calculate mean, median and distribution etc etc figures

considering the public sector is meant to be public, its shocking that citizens dont have access to much information and data about how this multi billion sector is run

xavidub · 30-09-2010 09:24AM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Of course not. But as the national wealth grew in the boom (well, at least we all thought it was growing

) It is natural for those workers in Public services to demand a greater share of the wealth since their efforts are responsible for a large part of it. Let's not forget that private wealth grew much greater and faster during that time anyway.

A public sector worker who earns 40k pays around half of it back in PAYE etc and then spends another large proportion of it in the local economy, supporting private sector business where he lives. Public sector and private sector are indivisible in the kind of society that we have chosen to create. They rise together, and fall together.

Our current budgetary situation, while unbalanced and needing sharp crrective action, would be perfectly unremarkable for an economy at the end of a boom, where it not for the banking crisis.

CJhaughey · 30-09-2010 09:31AM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Technically you could farm those out to the private sector.

You want to see a country without a public sector? Where private enterprise is king and there are no public sector wasters to waste money on?
I present to you --- Somalia.
Yep this gem of an country has no functioning government and no public sector.
Now if you have enough money you can buy yourself some technicals and use them to show the other private sector operators (warlords) how much business you mean.
Of course the healthcare and education may not be as good as it is here at present but you can always hire a private teacher and a private doctor and nurse to assist you if you happen to get shot up.
Travel into and out of the country can be problematic unless you have a private plane or heli, but the advantage of not having any wasters of air traffic controllers or customs and airport police outweigh that.
Waste disposal is not an issue nor are water rates or planning issues.
I suggest if you want a country that has no public sector waters as you put it then try Somalia.

Permabear · 30-09-2010 09:40AM

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murphaph · 30-09-2010 09:46AM

xavidub wrote: »

I have chosen to live in a country that refuses to value everything on how much can be made out of it. Those that disagree can perhaps move to places like New Mexico where there are vastly less taxes and services. But the Irish electorate has not yet chosen to go down that route and shows no inclination to do so. Quite the opposite if the latest opinion polls are accurate

There is quite a lot of high tech industry in New Mexico. This counters your point that places with fewer state services have no industry.

Anyway, we all know and pretty much agree that some services should always remain in public hands...justice for example BUT what are "public hands"? To me that does not imply "controlled by a small cabal of heavilly unionised individuals"...that is not public ownership at all.

Permabear · 30-09-2010 10:05AM

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jmayo · 30-09-2010 10:43AM

dean21 wrote: »

Has any other country had a private sector that has done this to there country for pure greed.
We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account and it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state.
And worse we are still waiting for some of them to be put in Jail.

Ehh weren't there supposed to be public sector employees managing the regulation of all these private sector banks or who paid the salaries and pensions of john hurley, liam o'reilly, patrick neary not to mention all the so called experts within the dept. of finance ?

xavidub wrote: »

Of course not. But as the national wealth grew in the boom (well, at least we all thought it was growing ) It is natural for those workers in Public services to demand a greater share of the wealth since their efforts are responsible for a large part of it. Let's not forget that private wealth grew much greater and faster during that time anyway.

There we go the sense of entitlement.
BTW if their efforts were responsible for a large part of "the wealth" then they must be responsible for a large part of the mess ?

In the real celtic tiger when we had IT and engineering graduates working damm hard for IT and telecom multinationals and some home grown companies, teachers started harping on that they educated them so they should get equivalent salaries.
Big difference was that the IT and engineering graduates had worked damm hard for their much harder degrees and were usually working much longer hours for their salaries.

xavidub wrote: »

A public sector worker who earns 40k pays around half of it back in PAYE etc and then spends another large proportion of it in the local economy, supporting private sector business where he lives. Public sector and private sector are indivisible in the kind of society that we have chosen to create. They rise together, and fall together.

No they don't.
Public sector workers are protected from market forces with continuity of employment, increments based on time served, often defined benefit pensions with lower contributions wheras on the other side private sector workers are at mercy of the market and economy.

In normal enviroments public sector workers pay a premium, i.e. get lower salaries, for their security.

xavidub wrote: »

Our current budgetary situation, while unbalanced and needing sharp crrective action, would be perfectly unremarkable for an economy at the end of a boom, where it not for the banking crisis.

What, borrowing half of you tax revenue to keep day to day spending going would be normal ?

murphaph · 30-09-2010 10:45AM

xavidub wrote: »

Public sector and private sector are indivisible in the kind of society that we have chosen to create. They rise together, and fall together.

The first part is partially true, the second part clearly is not!

hinault · 30-09-2010 10:49AM

dean21 wrote: »

Has any other country had a private sector that has done this to there country for pure greed.
We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account and it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state.
And worse we are still waiting for some of them to be put in Jail.

Recriminations can be appoprtioned to many factors.

I'm private sector - it is very frustrating the thought of bailing out McNamara, Ronan and all the rest of those cnuts.
(and before anyone tries calling me on this, NAMA/recapitalisation is effectively a bail out of these guys).

It is also very frustrating the thought of all of the money thrown to the PS through benchmarking, huge increases in salaries for top civil servants, guaranteed state pensions.
(the cleaner, hospital porter are the not the problem - it's the bloated middle management and upper management of the PS who are the beneficiaries of the politicians largesse).

Plenty of places to apportion recrimination, my friend.

dan_d · 30-09-2010 10:50AM

Ah yes...it's your fault.It's their fault.It's the culchies fault.It's the Dub's fault. It's the graduates fault. It's the fault of the unions.It's the fault of the unskilled workers.It's the pulic sector's fault.It's the politicians' fault.It's the private sector's fault. It's the cow in the local field's fault.

It's DEFINITELY not MY fault.Nothing to do with me. Why should I have to pay for it?

Welcome to Ireland.

I think at this stage it's been proven time and time and time and time again that it's the collective fault of a large number of people and systems. More worryingly, not a single person involved in that collective group has been held accountable.

I think we should be long past whose "fault" it is, and on to...."here are the penalties."

johnboy_123 · 30-09-2010 10:55AM

50 billion bailout due to wasters in private sector

I as a private sector worker take a huge dislike to this especailly from a bloated overpaid public sector worker like yourself.

firstly yes we are in debt of 70billion by the banks but who is behind it the government - public sector workers they had the power to stop it. They were the ones who agreed the deal. You cant blame the banks for being cheecky but you can blame the gov (public sector) for being gobsh1tes.

Also sure it will take 3.5 years of our over borrowing 20billion today of which 70% is used to pay over inflated public sector/Quango wages.

So I ask you who is doing more damage and with this croke park agreement (more like coc k park aggrement) Public sector can not be touched so once again the normal hard working person has to take it up the a$$ again. So to the original poster .... are you the pot or kettle in all of this. At least we have a finish line to the banking problem where is the finish line for the public sector wage problem?

dan_d · 30-09-2010 11:03AM

johnboy_123 wrote: »

50 billion bailout due to wasters in private sector

I as a private sector worker take a huge dislike to this especailly from a bloated overpaid public sector worker like yourself.

firstly yes we are in debt of 70billion by the banks but who is behind it the government - public sector workers they had the power to stop it. They were the ones who agreed the deal. You cant blame the banks for being cheecky but you can blame the gov (public sector) for being gobsh1tes.

Also sure it will take 3.5 years of our over borrowing 20billion today of which 70% is used to pay over inflated public sector/Quango wages.

So I ask you who is doing more damage and with this croke park agreement (more like coc k park aggrement) Public sector can not be touched so once again the normal hard working person has to take it up the a$$ again. So to the original poster .... are you the pot or kettle in all of this. At least we have a finish line to the banking problem where is the finish line for the public sector wage problem?

Good points Johnboy, but really I think you're wasting your breath (words?) to be honest.

Godge · 30-09-2010 11:59AM

CJhaughey wrote: »

You want to see a country without a public sector? Where private enterprise is king and there are no public sector wasters to waste money on?
I present to you --- Somalia.
Yep this gem of an country has no functioning government and no public sector.
Now if you have enough money you can buy yourself some technicals and use them to show the other private sector operators (warlords) how much business you mean.
Of course the healthcare and education may not be as good as it is here at present but you can always hire a private teacher and a private doctor and nurse to assist you if you happen to get shot up.
Travel into and out of the country can be problematic unless you have a private plane or heli, but the advantage of not having any wasters of air traffic controllers or customs and airport police outweigh that.
Waste disposal is not an issue nor are water rates or planning issues.
I suggest if you want a country that has no public sector waters as you put it then try Somalia.

And if you want to see how a country without a private sector works, try North Korea. No private sector wasters, no nasty banks that need to be recapitalised. No food (oops, forgot about that one).

The debate on boards.ie about public vs private seems to me to mainly consist of an argument over whether Somalia or North Korea provide the best role model for Ireland. A pretty abysmal low level of debate.

steve22 · 30-09-2010 12:10PM

dan_d wrote: »

Good points Johnboy, but really I think you're wasting your breath (words?) to be honest.

this whole argument is a waste of time... its been done over and over again and it gets no different and no closer to solving ANY problem...

cant we all just get along....

johnboy_123 · 30-09-2010 12:16PM

We can Steve but lets see how happy you feel when the boll0x is cut out of the middle class person in the next budget.....I really dont understand you would think that if I was making 200 a week and spending 500 a week that you would at some point have to cut your spending to what your earning...this is basic economics ...I cant believe the powers that be have got us into this hole not to mention the 1000 euros we decided to give to the richest man in town ... its just all too depressing

jimmycrackcorm · 30-09-2010 12:20PM

xavidub wrote: »

Of course not. But as the national wealth grew in the boom (well, at least we all thought it was growing ) It is natural for those workers in Public services to demand a greater share of the wealth since their efforts are responsible for a large part of it. Let's not forget that private wealth grew much greater and faster during that time anyway.

Please do enlighten me how they are responsible and if so what did they do differently from pre-boom days? Teachers claimed that the educatino they provided fostered the growth so why didn't that ensure a boom in the 80's also?

A public sector worker who earns 40k pays around half of it back in PAYE etc and then spends another large proportion of it in the local economy, supporting private sector business where he lives. Public sector and private sector are indivisible in the kind of society that we have chosen to create. They rise together, and fall together.

A private sector employee working in an export led business earning 40k provides the real money. Otherwise if we follow your argument we could simply pay each public sector a million euros and that would fund the private sector instead.

A Public sector that is balanced to the private sector is indivisible

Our current budgetary situation, while unbalanced and needing sharp crrective action, would be perfectly unremarkable for an economy at the end of a boom, where it not for the banking crisis.

The non-banking deficit is pretty remarkable regardless.

50 billion bailout due to wasters in private sector

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