50 billion bailout due to wasters in private sector

dean21

Has any other country had a private sector that has done this to there country for pure greed.
We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account and it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state.
And worse we are still waiting for some of them to be put in Jail.

ei.sdraob

dean21 wrote:

We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account

i hear the worlds smallest flute playing

dean21 wrote:

it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state

1. how many years it would take to payback the 45 billion a year being run up by public sector and welfare, by your very same logic?

2. the government, regulator and central bank are not private entities :rolleyes: put the blame now squarely where it belongs

Cookie_Monster

ah, but its the public sector watchdog who is really at fault
and the gov for even bothering to bail them out rather than simply let them take the hit

Amhran Nua

dean21 wrote: »

We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account and it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state.

Just on the subject here, what percentage would you say of the public sector has first, second, or even third mortgages from these banks? A high or low number? I know the banks loved to hand out loans to those with presumably guaranteed job security...

Mad Benny

You obviously haven't read this op

ardmacha

The government is not the public sector, it represents you, the citizens.

murphaph

ardmacha wrote: »

The government is not the public sector, it represents you, the citizens.

but the government is made up of public servants

xavidub

The Public Sector can not exist without the Private Sector. That's where the money for Public Services comes from. The Private sector can sometimes do things better than the Public sector and vice versa and sometimes one sector is larger than it needs to be.

However, the Private Sector can not exist without the Public Sector. That's who provides safety, security, education for the workforce, health services for sick workers etc etc. If it was really so easy to run a company in countries without these services then HP would be in Baghdad and Microsoft in Kabul and Wyeth in Khartoum. But they aren't because they want to have lots of state provided services that they aren't willing to pay for. Well, someone has to pay for those things.

These arguments are like asking someone whether he would rather lose his arms or his legs. I rather keep both thanks.

Amhran Nua

xavidub wrote: »

That's who provides safety, security, education for the workforce, health services for sick workers etc etc.

Technically you could farm those out to the private sector.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Stercus Accidit

I want someone to blame!

I'm PS myself, and I blame the PS for wrecking the PS, the PS has ruined this country, death to the PS, PS forever!

That public V private row distracted people once already, isn't it about time people focussed on the real problems, and I think they are, this PvP nonsense is a distraction and will help nothing.

ei.sdraob

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I want someone to blame!

I'm PS myself, and I blame the PS for wrecking the PS, the PS has ruined this country, death to the PS, PS forever!

That public V private row distracted people once already, isn't it about time people focussed on the real problems, and I think they are, this PvP nonsense is a distraction and will help nothing.

We should all join our brothers in the public service and close shop on private enterprise

sure it worked out great in USSR before :P

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

xavidub

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Technically you could farm those out to the private sector.

Yes you can, and we have all seen how well that benefits those in society who 'can't be turned into a profit'.

There are lots of things that the state does that will never be profitable. Delivering letters to the Dingle Peninsula for example. Or trying to make someone's last days comfortable.

I have chosen to live in a country that refuses to value everything on how much can be made out of it. Those that disagree can perhaps move to places like New Mexico where there are vastly less taxes and services. But the Irish electorate has not yet chosen to go down that route and shows no inclination to do so. Quite the opposite if the latest opinion polls are accurate.

And most of the time when things like prison services are privatised, they only make money by being heavily subsidised and tend to abandon all but the core elements of the service, thus placing those costs back on the taxpayer. Like private hospitals that only are interested in doing routine and uncomplicated procedures but then claim to be 'profitable'.

steve22

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

- that figure always makes me laugh! "average" is a great word...

ei.sdraob

steve22 wrote: »

- that figure always makes me laugh! "average" is a great word...

If you give us detailed salary data (CSO doesnt include healthcare sector btw) i am sure me and others be happy to calculate mean, median and distribution etc etc figures

considering the public sector is meant to be public, its shocking that citizens dont have access to much information and data about how this multi billion sector is run

xavidub

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Of course not. But as the national wealth grew in the boom (well, at least we all thought it was growing ) It is natural for those workers in Public services to demand a greater share of the wealth since their efforts are responsible for a large part of it. Let's not forget that private wealth grew much greater and faster during that time anyway.

A public sector worker who earns 40k pays around half of it back in PAYE etc and then spends another large proportion of it in the local economy, supporting private sector business where he lives. Public sector and private sector are indivisible in the kind of society that we have chosen to create. They rise together, and fall together.

Our current budgetary situation, while unbalanced and needing sharp crrective action, would be perfectly unremarkable for an economy at the end of a boom, where it not for the banking crisis.

CJhaughey

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Technically you could farm those out to the private sector.

You want to see a country without a public sector? Where private enterprise is king and there are no public sector wasters to waste money on?
I present to you --- Somalia.
Yep this gem of an country has no functioning government and no public sector.
Now if you have enough money you can buy yourself some technicals and use them to show the other private sector operators (warlords) how much business you mean.
Of course the healthcare and education may not be as good as it is here at present but you can always hire a private teacher and a private doctor and nurse to assist you if you happen to get shot up.
Travel into and out of the country can be problematic unless you have a private plane or heli, but the advantage of not having any wasters of air traffic controllers or customs and airport police outweigh that.
Waste disposal is not an issue nor are water rates or planning issues.
I suggest if you want a country that has no public sector waters as you put it then try Somalia.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

murphaph

xavidub wrote: »

I have chosen to live in a country that refuses to value everything on how much can be made out of it. Those that disagree can perhaps move to places like New Mexico where there are vastly less taxes and services. But the Irish electorate has not yet chosen to go down that route and shows no inclination to do so. Quite the opposite if the latest opinion polls are accurate

There is quite a lot of high tech industry in New Mexico. This counters your point that places with fewer state services have no industry.

Anyway, we all know and pretty much agree that some services should always remain in public hands...justice for example BUT what are "public hands"? To me that does not imply "controlled by a small cabal of heavilly unionised individuals"...that is not public ownership at all.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jmayo

dean21 wrote: »

Has any other country had a private sector that has done this to there country for pure greed.
We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account and it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state.
And worse we are still waiting for some of them to be put in Jail.

Ehh weren't there supposed to be public sector employees managing the regulation of all these private sector banks or who paid the salaries and pensions of john hurley, liam o'reilly, patrick neary not to mention all the so called experts within the dept. of finance ?

xavidub wrote: »

Of course not. But as the national wealth grew in the boom (well, at least we all thought it was growing ) It is natural for those workers in Public services to demand a greater share of the wealth since their efforts are responsible for a large part of it. Let's not forget that private wealth grew much greater and faster during that time anyway.

There we go the sense of entitlement.
BTW if their efforts were responsible for a large part of "the wealth" then they must be responsible for a large part of the mess ?

In the real celtic tiger when we had IT and engineering graduates working damm hard for IT and telecom multinationals and some home grown companies, teachers started harping on that they educated them so they should get equivalent salaries.
Big difference was that the IT and engineering graduates had worked damm hard for their much harder degrees and were usually working much longer hours for their salaries.

xavidub wrote: »

A public sector worker who earns 40k pays around half of it back in PAYE etc and then spends another large proportion of it in the local economy, supporting private sector business where he lives. Public sector and private sector are indivisible in the kind of society that we have chosen to create. They rise together, and fall together.

No they don't.
Public sector workers are protected from market forces with continuity of employment, increments based on time served, often defined benefit pensions with lower contributions wheras on the other side private sector workers are at mercy of the market and economy.

In normal enviroments public sector workers pay a premium, i.e. get lower salaries, for their security.

xavidub wrote: »

Our current budgetary situation, while unbalanced and needing sharp crrective action, would be perfectly unremarkable for an economy at the end of a boom, where it not for the banking crisis.

What, borrowing half of you tax revenue to keep day to day spending going would be normal ?

murphaph

xavidub wrote: »

Public sector and private sector are indivisible in the kind of society that we have chosen to create. They rise together, and fall together.

The first part is partially true, the second part clearly is not!

hinault

dean21 wrote: »

Has any other country had a private sector that has done this to there country for pure greed.
We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account and it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state.
And worse we are still waiting for some of them to be put in Jail.

Recriminations can be appoprtioned to many factors.

I'm private sector - it is very frustrating the thought of bailing out McNamara, Ronan and all the rest of those cnuts.
(and before anyone tries calling me on this, NAMA/recapitalisation is effectively a bail out of these guys).

It is also very frustrating the thought of all of the money thrown to the PS through benchmarking, huge increases in salaries for top civil servants, guaranteed state pensions.
(the cleaner, hospital porter are the not the problem - it's the bloated middle management and upper management of the PS who are the beneficiaries of the politicians largesse).

Plenty of places to apportion recrimination, my friend.

dan_d

Ah yes...it's your fault.It's their fault.It's the culchies fault.It's the Dub's fault. It's the graduates fault. It's the fault of the unions.It's the fault of the unskilled workers.It's the pulic sector's fault.It's the politicians' fault.It's the private sector's fault. It's the cow in the local field's fault.

It's DEFINITELY not MY fault.Nothing to do with me. Why should I have to pay for it?

Welcome to Ireland.

I think at this stage it's been proven time and time and time and time again that it's the collective fault of a large number of people and systems. More worryingly, not a single person involved in that collective group has been held accountable.

I think we should be long past whose "fault" it is, and on to...."here are the penalties."

johnboy_123

50 billion bailout due to wasters in private sector

I as a private sector worker take a huge dislike to this especailly from a bloated overpaid public sector worker like yourself.

firstly yes we are in debt of 70billion by the banks but who is behind it the government - public sector workers they had the power to stop it. They were the ones who agreed the deal. You cant blame the banks for being cheecky but you can blame the gov (public sector) for being gobsh1tes.

Also sure it will take 3.5 years of our over borrowing 20billion today of which 70% is used to pay over inflated public sector/Quango wages.

So I ask you who is doing more damage and with this croke park agreement (more like coc k park aggrement) Public sector can not be touched so once again the normal hard working person has to take it up the a$$ again. So to the original poster .... are you the pot or kettle in all of this. At least we have a finish line to the banking problem where is the finish line for the public sector wage problem?

dan_d

johnboy_123 wrote: »

50 billion bailout due to wasters in private sector

I as a private sector worker take a huge dislike to this especailly from a bloated overpaid public sector worker like yourself.

firstly yes we are in debt of 70billion by the banks but who is behind it the government - public sector workers they had the power to stop it. They were the ones who agreed the deal. You cant blame the banks for being cheecky but you can blame the gov (public sector) for being gobsh1tes.

Also sure it will take 3.5 years of our over borrowing 20billion today of which 70% is used to pay over inflated public sector/Quango wages.

So I ask you who is doing more damage and with this croke park agreement (more like coc k park aggrement) Public sector can not be touched so once again the normal hard working person has to take it up the a$$ again. So to the original poster .... are you the pot or kettle in all of this. At least we have a finish line to the banking problem where is the finish line for the public sector wage problem?

Good points Johnboy, but really I think you're wasting your breath (words?) to be honest.

Godge

CJhaughey wrote: »

You want to see a country without a public sector? Where private enterprise is king and there are no public sector wasters to waste money on?
I present to you --- Somalia.
Yep this gem of an country has no functioning government and no public sector.
Now if you have enough money you can buy yourself some technicals and use them to show the other private sector operators (warlords) how much business you mean.
Of course the healthcare and education may not be as good as it is here at present but you can always hire a private teacher and a private doctor and nurse to assist you if you happen to get shot up.
Travel into and out of the country can be problematic unless you have a private plane or heli, but the advantage of not having any wasters of air traffic controllers or customs and airport police outweigh that.
Waste disposal is not an issue nor are water rates or planning issues.
I suggest if you want a country that has no public sector waters as you put it then try Somalia.

And if you want to see how a country without a private sector works, try North Korea. No private sector wasters, no nasty banks that need to be recapitalised. No food (oops, forgot about that one).

The debate on boards.ie about public vs private seems to me to mainly consist of an argument over whether Somalia or North Korea provide the best role model for Ireland. A pretty abysmal low level of debate.

steve22

dan_d wrote: »

Good points Johnboy, but really I think you're wasting your breath (words?) to be honest.

this whole argument is a waste of time... its been done over and over again and it gets no different and no closer to solving ANY problem...

cant we all just get along....

johnboy_123

We can Steve but lets see how happy you feel when the boll0x is cut out of the middle class person in the next budget.....I really dont understand you would think that if I was making 200 a week and spending 500 a week that you would at some point have to cut your spending to what your earning...this is basic economics ...I cant believe the powers that be have got us into this hole not to mention the 1000 euros we decided to give to the richest man in town ... its just all too depressing

jimmycrackcorm

xavidub wrote: »

Of course not. But as the national wealth grew in the boom (well, at least we all thought it was growing ) It is natural for those workers in Public services to demand a greater share of the wealth since their efforts are responsible for a large part of it. Let's not forget that private wealth grew much greater and faster during that time anyway.

Please do enlighten me how they are responsible and if so what did they do differently from pre-boom days? Teachers claimed that the educatino they provided fostered the growth so why didn't that ensure a boom in the 80's also?

A public sector worker who earns 40k pays around half of it back in PAYE etc and then spends another large proportion of it in the local economy, supporting private sector business where he lives. Public sector and private sector are indivisible in the kind of society that we have chosen to create. They rise together, and fall together.

A private sector employee working in an export led business earning 40k provides the real money. Otherwise if we follow your argument we could simply pay each public sector a million euros and that would fund the private sector instead.

A Public sector that is balanced to the private sector is indivisible

Our current budgetary situation, while unbalanced and needing sharp crrective action, would be perfectly unremarkable for an economy at the end of a boom, where it not for the banking crisis.

The non-banking deficit is pretty remarkable regardless.

steve22

i agree that its depressing... but its depressing for every middle (lower middle) class person out there Private or Public. we're all in the same sinking ship... I just wish i took swimming lessons when i was younger!

bondjames

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Say it is 50k
Do you know that the PS pays tax, pension levy, PRSI???
So take an average of 35% goes straight back to the state (1.75 billion)
The 100k that have being let go will get some payment of social and government claim that each person on the dole cost around 22k (2.2 billion)
So I think it would be less that 1.5 billion and that is before you take in the effect it would have on the economy

bondjames

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Technically you could farm those out to the private sector.

Are you ready to send your kids to private school at a cost of 6 to 10k a year and the private schools in this state are all ready receiving 100 million a year from the state?

bondjames

johnboy_123 wrote: »

50 billion bailout due to wasters in private sector

I as a private sector worker take a huge dislike to this especailly from a bloated overpaid public sector worker like yourself.

firstly yes we are in debt of 70billion by the banks but who is behind it the government - public sector workers they had the power to stop it. They were the ones who agreed the deal. You cant blame the banks for being cheecky but you can blame the gov (public sector) for being gobsh1tes.

Also sure it will take 3.5 years of our over borrowing 20billion today of which 70% is used to pay over inflated public sector/Quango wages.

So I ask you who is doing more damage and with this croke park agreement (more like coc k park aggrement) Public sector can not be touched so once again the normal hard working person has to take it up the a$$ again. So to the original poster .... are you the pot or kettle in all of this. At least we have a finish line to the banking problem where is the finish line for the public sector wage problem?

You can huff and puff but the fact is that the private sector borrowed 50 billion and lost or spent it.
The policy in the private sector was
“If you had road frontage and planning then you can have as many million as you want and the fool took it.
A finish line that could be up to 20 year away to the banking problem

Scofflaw

Godge wrote: »

The debate on boards.ie about public vs private seems to me to mainly consist of an argument over whether Somalia or North Korea provide the best role model for Ireland. A pretty abysmal low level of debate.

True - however, it's worth bearing in mind that we have relatively few - if any - posters arguing for nationalisation of the private sector, but we do have quite a few posters arguing for privatisation of the public sector.

Most of us, I think, are perfectly happy for there to be a public sector, but see it as being currently too large for the country's finances and apparently politically untouchable. That latter is slightly unfair, since the PS payroll has been reduced, and will be reduced further, but it generates animosity.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

bondjames

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Were they?
I know one guy who had business selling furniture
He got 680 million to borrow
He was an idiot and the bank that gave it to him were idiots
Did any public sector worker get 680 million?
In the boom times we keep hearing that a couple where she was a nurse and he was a Guard could not get money to buy a house in Dublin

Scofflaw

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ah, yes - but they borrowed it as private individuals, so that's a private sector sin, you see...

amused,
Scofflaw

johnboy_123

bondjames wrote: »

You can huff and puff but the fact is that the private sector borrowed 50 billion and lost or spent it.
The policy in the private sector was
“If you had road frontage and planning then you can have as many million as you want and the fool took it.
A finish line that could be up to 20 year away to the banking problem

Owe by the private sector you mean the banks who were marshelled by guess who the gov and financial regilaters last time I checked they where both Public sector workers....and sure 50 billion sure thats about 3/4 years of the over borrowing we would need to keep the bloated public sector the way it is so with the croker aggreement the public sector wages will have cost more ...but as I stated else where at least we see the finish line in site with the banking crises something has been done...Whats been done to sort out the public sector wage crisses????

PeakOutput

bondjames wrote: »

You can huff and puff but the fact is that the private sector borrowed 50 billion

so no public sector workers have loans no?fair play to them

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

rumour

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac: Me too

rumour

bondjames wrote: »

You can huff and puff but the fact is that the private sector borrowed 50 billion and lost or spent it.
The policy in the private sector was
“If you had road frontage and planning then you can have as many million as you want and the fool took it.
A finish line that could be up to 20 year away to the banking problem

I'm being pedantic here...and correct me if i'm wrong, once the guarantee was put in place the banking institutions that are causing so much problems were more or less nationalised. Since Sept 2008 their fate has been controlled or in the control of the state. Now factually it is the state that decided to burden itself with these banks. Making the state borrowing to fund the banks completely a public sector mess.

The state stepped in I believe because it was running such large deficits, it knew (despite whatever rhetoric and spin we are issued with) that if our banks fell they would have no access to credit via the bond markets to fund their deficit. Letting themselves get into that position was again another public sector mess.

Therefore the mess the state finds itself in is entirely a public sector mess of unsurpassable incompetence.

The state ought to have remained the state and let the private (banks) sector sink.

ei.sdraob

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand

the banks were pissing money left and right at one stage as we now know with NAMA

tho 680 million!? maybe 6.8 million or 680K?

George Orwell 1982

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i hear the worlds smallest flute playing



1. how many years it would take to payback the 45 billion a year being run up by public sector and welfare, by your very same logic?

The opportunity cost of this money is almost nil. We need to spend that money to provide services and keep the economy going. If we didn't spend that money our economy would collapse. The money borrowed for the deficit is spent in the Irish economy, it provides services, supports jobs, keeps businesses open and much of the money finds its way back into govt coffers in the form of tax revenue.

The money of the bank bailout is money into a black hole and so the opportunity cost of the bailout money is enormous.

I keep posting this but you keep ignoring it.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

2. the government, regulator and central bank are not private entities :rolleyes: put the blame now squarely where it belongs

The private sector lobbied for light touch regulation, "get the government out of the economy" and other reagonite mantras. They got what they wanted.

jprender

George Orwell 1982 wrote: »

The private sector lobbied for light touch regulation, "get the government out of the economy" and other reagonite mantras. They got what they wanted.

OMG.

It's not the job of the Govt to give what is lobbied for.

George Orwell 1982

murphaph wrote: »

Anyway, we all know and pretty much agree that some services should always remain in public hands...justice for example BUT what are "public hands"? To me that does not imply "controlled by a small cabal of heavilly unionised individuals"...that is not public ownership at all.

Public sector administration is ultimately accountable to the Dail and hence the people. In private companies decisions are made by a board of directors and they are accountable to no one except their shareholders, provided their actions aren't actually criminal.

Godge

Scofflaw wrote: »

True - however, it's worth bearing in mind that we have relatively few - if any - posters arguing for nationalisation of the private sector, but we do have quite a few posters arguing for privatisation of the public sector.

Most of us, I think, are perfectly happy for there to be a public sector, but see it as being currently too large for the country's finances and apparently politically untouchable. That latter is slightly unfair, since the PS payroll has been reduced, and will be reduced further, but it generates animosity.

cordially,
Scofflaw

True, but posters don't need to argue for nationalisation of the private sector as it is already happening. By the end of the year, the State will own the majority of the 2007 banking sector, Quinn Insurance, Arnotts, 70 hotels and every property development company. Not a lot left to nationalise.

The real point I was making is that there are very few discussing in the middle ground. It is all "screw the public sector" or "tax the rich" or "it is the bankers' fault and leave us public servants alone".

A genuine debate on how to get a more efficient public sector, a fairer tax system and what should our overall level of taxation be (Swedish, American or something in-between) would be nice for a change.

George Orwell 1982

jprender wrote: »

OMG.

It's not the job of the Govt to give what is lobbied for.

That is the reality of the situation. The business lobby is the most powerful lobby group in any developed economy. The govt implemented the policies that the business community wanted and look at where we are.

ardmacha

Ah, yes - but they borrowed it as private individuals, so that's a private sector sin, you see...

Public sector administration is ultimately accountable to the Dail and hence the people.

People as citizens in aggregate brought about this situation. And everyone as citizens will have to shoulder responsibility for it. Most of us did not buy an overpriced house or take part in property speculation in any way, half of us did not vote for FF, but we all will have to pay. In a democratic society you have an equal voice and equal responsibility as everyone else and attempts to blame only those you are prejudiced against ignores the nature of democratic society.