Inset Stove

Henry Ford III · 29-09-2010 01:00PM

I'll call Blacksmith later myself, but their website says the internal castings of their stoves have 16.8% chrome content, which presumably is a good thing.

I know you generally get what you pay for, but the attraction of a decent price, reasonable guarantee (2 years on glass and bricks, 3 years on internal castings, and 5 years on external castings) is reassuring. As in all things some products are simply better value than others.

In addition installation is simple (not need to remove existing fireback) and cleaning the chimney is relatively easy.

I also checked out a waterford Stanley Cara. A bit more expensive but the name is a good one. Any thoughts on this model?

sooty_soupy · 30-09-2010 09:50AM

Again with Waterford Stanley you get what you pay for...If they actually MANUFACTURED the stoves in Ireland then I would whole heartedy support them, but there main production is the other side of the globe, which casts as shadow over quality control, but more importantly the ethics of how these products can be better for our climate and environment when the shipping produces vast tons of CO during the transport of scrap metals to and finished products from China...and don't get me started on human rights and working conditions. Try not to be lulled in on a badge.

Henry Ford III · 30-09-2010 10:02AM

I'm still unsure. If the guarantee is good does it really matter where it's made?

p.s. What about a Mulberry Stoker?

sooty_soupy · 30-09-2010 10:40AM

You're right...if the guarantee is worth the paper it is written on, then go for it. Where it's made is an ethical discussion for a different forum, and not one I'm getting involved in. Mulberry....a stanley in a different box. I might need to be corrected here, but from what I can gather the designer of the Mulberry is ex Stanley and the two products are made in the same factory, along with Horseflame, Olymbrol etc...

Wouldn't life be boring if you didn't have choices to make.

Dilbert75 · 30-09-2010 08:08PM

sooty_soupy wrote: »

Wouldn't life be boring if you didn't have choices to make.

Life would be a lot bloody simpler, if nothing else!

David do you have a Vision inset in your showroom? Are you aware of them being installed anywhere else in Ireland (you're a 4 hr drive from me). Do you even have any photos of them installed? The one on the website is, shall we say, not great. Unless you like your stove installation pictures to look yellow, that is.

Henry Ford III · 01-10-2010 03:53PM

I rang and spoke to John who is the technical guy in Blacksmith.

He satisfied every query I had. I've ordered an Artisan locally for €600. Should be here next week, and I'll advise on how it performs.......

sooty_soupy · 01-10-2010 06:34PM

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Life would be a lot bloody simpler, if nothing else!

David do you have a Vision inset in your showroom? Are you aware of them being installed anywhere else in Ireland (you're a 4 hr drive from me). Do you even have any photos of them installed? The one on the website is, shall we say, not great. Unless you like your stove installation pictures to look yellow, that is.

Hi Dilbert, I know what you mean by the image. Have you been to our website yet. If you go onto the page for the inset, you will see some images, and if you pull down the pdf you will see the images too of one we have fitted. Other than this we have two inset's in our showroom, one in the showroom itself and the other is in our tea rooms beside us which is able to be lit along with the Vision 500. The Showroom has a 650 lit as well each day. We are not afraid of lighting the Clearviews to show people what all the fuss is about rather than having a showroom full of shiney new stoves fresh out of a box. The web site should also let you see videos of the stoves burning too so you can get an idea of what you might be getting into.

best regards

David

sooty_soupy · 01-10-2010 06:39PM

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I rang and spoke to John who is the technical guy in Blacksmith.

He satisfied every query I had. I've ordered an Artisan locally for €600. Should be here next week, and I'll advise on how it performs.......

I hope it works very well Henry Ford III. Please keep us informed, as it would be beneficial for all concerned, especially when a brilliant website http://www.whatstove.co.uk/ which is a review website does not even list them as a manufacturer, and they do seem to have great many of them listed...it's just silly things like this which would make me wonder where I am spending my money if it were me.

Best regards

Dilbert75 · 01-10-2010 06:45PM

david, what are your opening hours? Don't seem to be able to find them on your site. Have found your pics alright - a bit better than the clearview site

sooty_soupy · 01-10-2010 07:00PM

Dilbert75 wrote: »

david, what are your opening hours? Don't seem to be able to find them on your site. Have found your pics alright - a bit better than the clearview site

Sorry I thought the IT guy had sorted that

10-5 mon to fri and 10 - 1 on sat if that helps.

Glad the pics have helped.

Best regards

David

Dilbert75 · 01-10-2010 11:04PM

Dilbert the flex is connected with an adapter onto the stove.

You mean a length of vitreous enamel pipe? That's what my (currently) preferred installer proposes to do - about 60cm long, says the flexi wouldn't take the heat that close to the stove.

Use 904 grade steel for better performance.

In what way? More thorough burning? Less fouling? Longer life?

The baffle plate is taken out of the ceiling of the stove in a matter of seconds and low an behold, a 6" brush will sweep the chimney. The soot falls into the stove, cleaned up, and your ready to go for another year or so.

Are the liner warranties not dependent on twice-annual cleaning? I'd heard that start of lighting season and end of lighting season were the times to do this. If the right equipment is used, is it DIY-able?

Also, other than the hanger at the top, the flexi and the vermiculite, what other attachments are required? And do you have to seal the vermiculite into the flue above the stove or do you let it pour down and fill the void behind the stove? Aside from Docherty, are there any other liner manufacturers that you would use? HETAS-registered any recommendation?

sooty_soupy · 02-10-2010 10:21AM

Dilbert75 wrote: »

You mean a length of vitreous enamel pipe? That's what my (currently) preferred installer proposes to do - about 60cm long, says the flexi wouldn't take the heat that close to the stove.

In what way? More thorough burning? Less fouling? Longer life?

Are the liner warranties not dependent on twice-annual cleaning? I'd heard that start of lighting season and end of lighting season were the times to do this. If the right equipment is used, is it DIY-able?

Also, other than the hanger at the top, the flexi and the vermiculite, what other attachments are required? And do you have to seal the vermiculite into the flue above the stove or do you let it pour down and fill the void behind the stove? Aside from Docherty, are there any other liner manufacturers that you would use? HETAS-registered any recommendation?

The Clearview comes with it's own clever starter pipe that connects into the stove, so the standard flex adapter is fine.

904 grade liner is used when people are going to be slumber burning for long periods and are urning coal products as it is more robust against the corrosive gasses from such. 316 is fine for wood and turf use only, although you are buying one of the best multi fuel stoves on the market if you go for a Clearview, so why limit the type of fuel you can burn on it by fitting the cheaper flue. 316 carries a 10 year warranty and 904 is 20, so make of that what you will.

Vermiculite is not to be used to insulate the back of the stove, so it will need a rockwool plug to contain it before fitting the stove.

We have used all manner of flue in the past, and have been caught out by so many. The Northern Ireland Association of Chimney Sweeps members have elected to use Docherty flue, as have a great many registered professional technicians in the mainland UK. If you have a very good product, that is easy to work with and very solid, then why use anything else.

Dilbert75 · 03-10-2010 10:34AM

Just saw my first Clearview stove yesterday - in action too! Found a dealer about 25 mins down the road and he has a few in his showroom (though not the inset). He lit one (Vision 500) after we arrived and had a roaring fire inside of about 10 mins (on kindling then softwood logs). Within about 25 mins the surface of the stove was above 350°F. He demonstrated the controllability of the flame by shutting down the two dampers and the flame almost disappeared - the minute he pulled out the bottom damper, it took off again.

Without being an expert, it did seem very well made. The welds appeared very good, inside and out, and the thickness of the metal was very substantial. He handed me the lid off one of the unused models (maybe a 650) - the weight of it was massive (guy said there are several of the Chinese stoves that are lighter than that lid).

So I'm 99.9% decided on a Vision inset - only question left open now is the flue liner. The type he normally stocks is double-locked and has a 10yr warranty, though not a bad price. But I'm looking for a 20yr installation - so he's coming back to me with a price on Schiedel 904 liner. I'm still considering the Docherty 904 that Sooty_Soupy recommends - though its a savage price. Way I'm looking at it is that it might be cheaper to have the best in there, rather than pay labour twice to get it done again. (Putting a lot of trust in your advice here Sooty_Soupy!)

sooty_soupy · 04-10-2010 10:28AM

I'm smiling at the minute..you know that inner smile when you know you have converted someone into thinking about something before going ram stam into buying a product without doing research. It is a CONDITION of being an agent for Clearview that you have at least 2, and preferably 3 stoves that can be lit, to show people just how impressive these things are....and here, lady's and gentleman I present Dilbert75. He can't get my name right, but do you know, I don't care, because he has proved to me that all the time and effort I have spent on this forum is worth it. Even if he doesn't buy the stove directly from us, he will more than likely NEVER be happy with anything other than a Clearview Stove now. I am hoping this shop spent the time showing you how the door adjusted both the handle and hinge to ensure the stove is airtight, but if he didn't, check out the videos on our web site or search on youtube for "adjusting a Clearview stove"

As for the liner, all I can say is that it is not made of glass. On this basis, don't assume anything. Why buy the Rolls Royce of stoves and put cheap flue in. The Docherty Flue is high end stuff too, but there is a reason for that...we need to fit it and forget it rather than have to come back on it at a later stage and start all over.

The decision lies with the paying customer...we can only advise.

sooty_soupy · 04-10-2010 10:34AM

On another note Dilbert, I wouldn't mind if you could send me private message with the details of the company you saw the stoves at please. We are officially the agents for Clearview North and South now, as the main supplier in Ireland we have been told is closing up. On this basis we have been asked by Clearview to introduce ourselves to stockists in the Republic with a view to supplying them, and I would prefer to deal with companies such as the one you have mentioned when they are going to the effort of lighting a Clearview and demonstrating it to customers properly. I am going to be doing a bit of driving around Ireland soon meet some selected agents and this company would be one I would like to speak with.

Dilbert75 · 04-10-2010 07:16PM

LOL Sooty_Soupy - I've fixed that now. Feel free to call me 75Dilbert if you wish - I won't be too bothered (I've been called a lot worse!).

Yes he did show me how to adjust the door, though I'd already watched the videos on line. It was the first stove shop (I've been in a few stove retailers of all kinds) which even had stoves piped up to light, so for him to light it for us was very welcome (shows the value of arriving first thing in the morning). He also told me about just how long that stove would burn with the dampers fully closed, just barely ticking over - he reckoned you could put in maybe 4 logs in the morning and they'd still be burning gently in the afternoon. The heat off this thing was still palpable, even turned fully down. When we left the surface temperature was still climbing. So yes the stove sold itself - just a pity he didn't have the exact one there but probably close enough. I understand that Clearview are able to turn around orders pretty quickly too, compared to other manufacturers who have maybe a 2 week leadtime.

So yes I'm just waiting on the liner quote from him - if he comes up with what I think is acceptable standard, I'll go with that. If I'm not convinced, I'll be looking for a Clearview dealer who sells Docherty liner - if you know any of those, I'm sure you'll let me know.:D

Why buy the Rolls Royce of stoves and put cheap flue in?

If it wasn't for the price of it, there'd be no question. It does all add up though and the budget is finite...

Cat_M · 04-10-2010 08:51PM

[QUOTE=PeteHeat;61660874

I honestly believe Irish and UK fireplaces were never designed for many of of the insert products on sale and equally the inserts were not designed for our standard fireplaces.

.[/QUOTE]

I've just joined in here and am a bit bamboozled TBPH by all the tecky info but I first need to know, what hope do I have at all really of retro-fitting an insert stove??

I live in a 16yr old house. Have included a pic of my fireplace.

Dilbert75 · 04-10-2010 09:31PM

Colour aside - its almost an identical replica of mine. As far as I can make out, it can be done - but you should try pick through the geek-speak and figure out what you need to do to get the result you want. I want a good 20 year job, some people are happy to throw theirs away after 5 years, others are happy to bung in a bit of fire cement and burn away. Your call.

But there's plenty of discussion around here about what's necessary and what's not. And plenty of people willing to offer their opinions - so don't be shy, ask away!

Henry Ford III · 05-10-2010 02:23PM

Sooty - if you are the Clearview agent can your advice ever be truly impartial? (no offence).

I'm not so sure that it matters where a stove is actually made tbh, if the raw materials and quality controls are good, and there's a comprehensive reliable guarantee does it matter that much?

I can actually see a strong case for heavy industrial manufacturing in rapidly developing countries - lower costs, and economies of scale for example.

Sure there will be some good stuff and also some very poor product too.

You pays your money and takes your chances I guess.

Dilbert75 · 05-10-2010 07:27PM

HFIII - that's part of the problem with the stove industry in general, as far as I can see. The only people telling you anything are the people selling things, there's little independent advice or regulation. So hence it falls to purchasers to research and assure themselves that the average of what they're being told is reasonable and agreeable.

In my case I want a long-term investment - nobody is going to give more than a 5 year warranty at best. Without studying up on it, there's little to suggest how the €1500 stove is any different from the €750 stove. However, it seems to me that, while the €750 stove might be ok and might last for 5, 6 or 8 years, it doesn't have any history to suggest it will last beyond that and the quality of the more expensive stove is obvious. That it has history behind it, and satisfied customers, means a lot to me.

Its for each purchaser to make up their own minds. Buyer beware and all that.

rpmcs · 05-10-2010 07:42PM

as far as i know aarrow stove bodys comes with a life time guarantee! but if i only sold aarrow i might sing that a little higher!!

Dilbert75 · 05-10-2010 08:31PM

So they do! Why did I never hear that before? This one's not a bad looker either - and £919 inc vat makes it a lot less expensive than Clearview. Should have paid more attention to them at the stove shop last Saturday. I do note they are wood-fired only, not multi-fueled (which I kinda want). On the upside, they do have a copy of their installation instructions on their website, which I always think is a good thing.

Its one thing I don't understand about Clearview - if they last so long, why isn't their warranty longer? Sooty_soupy - any insights on that?

Henry Ford III · 06-10-2010 01:07PM

Dilbert75 wrote: »

HFIII - that's part of the problem with the stove industry in general, as far as I can see. The only people telling you anything are the people selling things, there's little independent advice or regulation. So hence it falls to purchasers to research and assure themselves that the average of what they're being told is reasonable and agreeable.

In my case I want a long-term investment - nobody is going to give more than a 5 year warranty at best. Without studying up on it, there's little to suggest how the €1500 stove is any different from the €750 stove. However, it seems to me that, while the €750 stove might be ok and might last for 5, 6 or 8 years, it doesn't have any history to suggest it will last beyond that and the quality of the more expensive stove is obvious. That it has history behind it, and satisfied customers, means a lot to me.

Its for each purchaser to make up their own minds. Buyer beware and all that.

I agree with you totally.

Another example is the variation of opinion on the issue of flue lining. Sooty says it's essential, but whatstove says 5kw or under stoves don't need it.

soldsold · 06-10-2010 03:24PM

Hi,

I have a 316 ss flexi flue installed in a new chimney with pipework to supply hot water tank/ radiators. The room the stove is in has 0.7 u value triple glazed windows and 'passive' spec insulation and airtightness and will be fitting a hrv.

I'm looking for an inset stove that will supply as little heat to the room as possible, has An external air inlet so the HRV won't become unbalanced, a back boiler to send heat away from the room and avoid immersion or oil boiler use for hot water for as late in the year as possible. I've seen a 'woodwarm' stove online that puts around 2kw to the room and 13 to hot water/ rads, but are there any other options? I've seen the Clearview stoves running and they look great but I need an inset stove with higher output for hot water.

Any ideas?

Cheers,

S

rpmcs · 06-10-2010 07:05PM

two stoves that come to mind, esse green switch, and Stratford ti40b that give to my knowledge 2-3kw to room which would be much the same as open fire and very roughly boiler give 13kw/43,000 to water, but if you check them up youll get more exact boiler output!!both pretty good stoves in my opinion !!

Dilbert75 · 09-10-2010 02:58PM

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Another example is the variation of opinion on the issue of flue lining. Sooty says it's essential, but whatstove says 5kw or under stoves don't need it.

Apart from Sooty and one other, everyone I've spoken to has told me that for my house (8 years old) shouldn't need flue lining. One person said "if you have problems in a few years, you can do it then". I don't want problems in a few years so, on balance, it seems that the thing to do is line it.

sooty_soupy · 16-10-2010 05:53PM

Sorry for being away for a while...too much on..but not a bad complaint.

where to start...75Dilbert...yeah I know...I've been called a lot of things too. LOL

I keep coming back to the same thing. If you are buying a stove...ANY STOVE, you will be told the flue outlet diameter...and that is for a very good reason. This will be the diameter of flue used DURING TESTING, to determine the output of the appliance. Now when you buy a stove, chosen for it's output, then you fit the bloody thing into a flue the wrong size, what do you think happens to the efficiency of the stove and it's ability to put heat into the room?

How can I be impartial...well that is VERY easy. I've been a chimney technician and sweep for 21 years and have WORKED with them all...not just selling boxes with products, all shiney and new inside, but after they have been used for months, and years the way they are designed...and that's when you sort the wheat from the chaff. Experience tells you all you need to know in life...I'm just sharing my knowledge.

Aarow are fine as far as I can gather, although the castings are done in China too. I know this as I had to wait 12 weeks for a door that needed replaced when an aarow stove arrived damaged, but 3 months without a door for a new stove was a bit much, so no more of them were bought...plus the air slide on the SB20 I think the model was, is bordering on useless and flimsy...go play with a stove in a showroom and put it through it's paces. If it doesn't feel solid...it isn't.

Looking at the instructions for installation linked by Dilbert75, on page 11 it does suggest that the flue needs to be kept warm (not always possible with clay liners due to the slow burn nature of stoves) and the flue should be the correct size for the appliance...and back we come to the size of the outlet. The same page also refers to using a 6" flex liner if you have a large diameter of chimney. I dare say if you asked Aarrow, they would endorse the insulated flex liner as good practice, based on there instructions suggesting so.

Clearview just come out with it...no ambiguity...it needs flue lined. Dilbert75 saw the Clearview lit, as does everyone coming into our showroom. Burning under control? very much so, but look what happens;

Low flue gas temperatures when burning slowly = condensates. The solution = Flexible steel heats up quickly and evenly, and vermiculite insulates it...Problem solved.

And then you get into steel manufacturers instructions. 316 suitable for wood and turf, not for slumber burning appliances or mulit fuel stoves burning coal...904 grade steel needs to be used. As an approved Docherty Chimney Group stockist and installer, I know that for a fact with their products, and also Schiedel say the same thing on their web site...just do the research and all the answers are there...all I am doing is bringing it all together for you.

Warranty on most stoves covers nothing but the body. All the stoves I have fitted have never covered glass, rope, tiles, grate, ash pans, baffles etc..so when you really get down to the nitty gritty, what have you got covered? If you buy a cast iron (pig iron) stove, you will find the manufacturer will provide a replacement plate. You disconnect from plumbing where necessary, and disconnect from the flue, dismantle the stove, rebuild the stove and start fitting it all back together again...(thanks Stanley) all at your own expense. If you supplied the stove, then you feel obliged to do the decent thing for your customer...Oh the joys of having a warranty on the body (parts) of the stove. If you have a manufacturer that has expanded through the recession, and has loyal followers for nearly 30 years, who claim that the stove was the best thing they have ever bought, that tells you all you need to know I think. I have heard it for over two decades on the "front line" and all I ever wanted to sell was what I sell.

I'm amazed that WhatStove suggest not lining smaller stoves. Smaller ones are usually the ones that have a smaller diameter outlets, hence can be affected by larger diameter of flues, and to compound this they produce lower flue gas temperatures so need more help on the chimney front to help keep gasses warm.

Soldsold. Very few insets have the external air system from what I can gather, so you might struggle to get one to do what you need as far as that is concerned. The Clearview inset can have a domestic boiler added of 8000 BTU, reducing the output to the room, but I am perplexed. Surely the concept of heat recovery is that once the room gets to a certain temperature, dictated by thermostats, the heat is drawn away and ducted throughout the house. If this is correct, then why should it matter heating radiators, when the domestic water should be enough. Surplus radiant heat is moved mechanically. Stoves driving radiators can be harder to fuel, as you will have a bigger "heat sink" inside the stove. When you need radiant heat to the room, but the water needs it, you will have a stove that will default to heating water first, and your room second. 316 steel will be for wood and turf only BTW. Slumber burning coal on 316 especially with a boiler can open up a whole can of worms...find out who manufactured the flue and ask them before you start to use it.

Dilbert75...the company you told me about with the Clearview is not an approved stockist. They are buying through another stockist and Clearview are none too impressed from what I can gather, so if you can do a deal with him, do it quick....but then you have a real dilema...what happens if you need to make a claim on your warranty. Does Clearview stand over it, or make you return it to base because it was not an approved supplier? Anki chimneys, and County Down Stoves and Flues have been the only official stockists of Clearview stoves in Ireland, and you can pick up a stove at any time from us, as we carry them in stock at the warehouse all the time along with all the flue systems too. 75 Clearviews arrived 3 days ago. Just a thought. ;-}

Right it's 6.10pm on Saturday and I have a bottle of Bushmills with my name on it, and a Chicken Fried Rice.

Have a good weekend guys.

soldsold · 16-10-2010 09:28PM

Thanks for the reply sooty soupy.

The hrv system is only a ventilation system and will never be able to move enough air to transfer heat in any useful way. I've never heard of one being controlled by a thermostat, they just run 27/7. Hrv systems need to provide balanced air pressure to work properly and safely so they won't suck harmful gases from the stove for example. My house has 300mm of insulation under the floor, 240 in the cavity walls and 280 in the roof with extreme airtightness and 0.7 u value windows, so I just need to make sure my stove doesn't become an 'ornament' Ie can't use without roasting the room.

Good points on the 316 flue, I'm definitely not going to be burning coal but no harm to point it out. If Clearview made a room sealed inset stove large enough not to look out of place in a big room with an external air supply and a large back boiler I'd be first on the list!

Cheers!

S

Dilbert75 · 16-10-2010 10:48PM

sooty, back with a bang eh?

On the thing with the dealer, he has the stove in stock, he seems familiar with them, he gave a very good demonstration, his price is E100 cheaper than your price and he'll deliver free. So I mailed Jonathan in Clearview after I got your pm and am awaiting his reply on the warranty and some other questions. Until I get Jonathan's reply, I won't be buying a Clearview - simple as. Its too much money to put with anyone until I have a straight answer. I just hope I get that reply soon - I'm under pressure to get it done before it gets cold so if its not Clearview, it'll be something else.

New_Girl · 19-10-2010 01:47PM

Hi,
I've found the info here really useful but struggling to find an inset that suits my needs... I'm looking to heat the room (about 3x4m) and heat domestic hot water (no rads), does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

Inset Stove

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