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Religion is "child abuse" ??

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  • #152
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    But childhood indoctrination about something you don't even know exists is just enlightened and super-intelligent. M'ky. :pac:


  • #153
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    But childhood indoctrination about something you don't even know exists is just enlightened and super-intelligent. M'ky. :pac:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=2450&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1279313914

    :)


  • #154
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    But childhood indoctrination about something you don't even know exists is just enlightened and super-intelligent. M'ky. :pac:

    You can't prove he doesn't exist either. So using your twitsed logic. Atheists are also indoctrinating their children as well and are also abusing their children too.


  • #155
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    You can't prove he doesn't exist either. So using your twitsed logic. Atheists are also indoctrinating their children as well and are also abusing their children too.

    But I don't tell my kids god exists or doesn't exist - their spiritual path is their own. ;)


  • #156
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Wicknight wrote: »
    attachment.php?attachmentid=2450&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1279313914

    :)

    You're not going to feed yourself anymore?


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  • #157
    mohawk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭mohawk


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Des Carter wrote: »
    But cant they be indoctrinated into believing the atheist point of view just as easily?
    What form would atheist indoctrination take? It would also be very difficult in Ireland to keep a child away from religion.

    All the atheists that I know personally grew up in christian homes. We all arrived at our current beliefs over a number of years. Who am I to force a belief onto my child? A child has its own journey in life to go through and they will arrive at their own beliefs.

    I cannot say with 100% certainty that there is no god. If there is a god I also cannot say with any certainty which god is true. I will have to be honest with my child and I have no intention of saying there is no god end of discussion.

    There is a vast difference between indoctrination of beliefs and sharing them with a child. I don't think that sharing your beliefs counts as child abuse as if the child is happy to go along with it they won't suffer any lasting upset. On the other hand forcing beliefs onto a child could be damaging to a child long term.


  • #158
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Des Carter wrote: »
    When exactly did Jesus say that the OT was to be taken literally?

    “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)
    Des Carter wrote: »
    And wrong again the church has said itself that Adam and Eve never actually existed so please get your facts right before making points.

    "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,(Matthew 19:4 NIV)

    Both of these are quotes from Jesus.
    He also said, "The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as "the commandment of God" (Matthew 15:3) and as the "Word of God" (Matthew 15:6). Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, "The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as "the commandment of God" (Matthew 15:3) and as the "Word of God" (Matthew 15:6)

    When dealing with the people of His day, whether it was with the disciples or religious rulers, Jesus constantly referred to the Old Testament: "Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?" (Matthew 22:31); "Yea; and have you never read, 'Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes thou hast prepared praise for thyself'?" (Matthew 21:16, citing Psalm 8:2); and "Have you not read what David did?" (Matthew 12:3)

    Funnily enough, I posted essentially this exact same post to you before in a different thread, and you didn't respond to it then. I shouldn't get my hopes up I suppose


  • #159
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    LOL @ the ignorance in this post. You want to make ignorant posts don't cry when I say its ignorant.
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    LOL @ even more ignorance.
    Any more insults and you're outta here, dude.


  • #160
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    mohawk wrote: »
    What form would atheist indoctrination take? It would also be very difficult in Ireland to keep a child away from religion.

    All the atheists that I know personally grew up in christian homes. We all arrived at our current beliefs over a number of years. Who am I to force a belief onto my child? A child has its own journey in life to go through and they will arrive at their own beliefs.

    I cannot say with 100% certainty that there is no god. If there is a god I also cannot say with any certainty which god is true. I will have to be honest with my child and I have no intention of saying there is no god end of discussion.

    There is a vast difference between indoctrination of beliefs and sharing them with a child. I don't think that sharing your beliefs counts as child abuse as if the child is happy to go along with it they won't suffer any lasting upset. On the other hand forcing beliefs onto a child could be damaging to a child long term.

    Which is all fine, but you're not comparing like with like - I'd be equally appalled and equally as quick to call it abuse if atheists wanted schools just for atheists - no kids of theists allowed - spent hours of the day indoctrinating kids in chanting "there is no god and everyone who believes in one is an idiot", and made 12 year olds take part in ceremonies where they publicly promised never to believe in God and to hold true to their atheistic ideals.

    Merely *not indoctrinating* them in a belief system is not the same thing at all as what I described above which is the equivalent of what's happening now, doubly so if I expect the state to get involved and instil these atheistic ideals in children for me.


  • #161
    Improbable
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    For moderate religious people who say that god loves everyone etc, that you're not gonna be burning in hell, surely you could teach your children all of the good sides of it "love your neighbour etc etc" without bringing god into it at all.


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  • #162
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Because some people on here are trying in vain to connect it with child abuse. Which is absolutely stupid and absurd.

    Ok then. Try debating with them and prove em wrong instead of frothing and gibbering at them!


  • #163
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Yes yours is so much better. :rolleyes:



    Your whole argument screams troll alert. You made outrageous and absolute baseless accusations. Don't cry because you're not being taken seriously.

    Any chance you might counter these accusations instead of ranting?

    Whoops. Im back seat moding. Sorry all.


  • #164
    Improbable
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Wicknight wrote: »
    attachment.php?attachmentid=2450&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1279313914

    :)

    Stealing my avatar! avatar thief!!


  • #165
    mohawk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭mohawk


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    pH wrote: »
    Which is all fine, but you're not comparing like with like - I'd be equally appalled and equally as quick to call it abuse if atheists wanted schools just for atheists - no kids of theists allowed - spent hours of the day indoctrinating kids in chanting "there is no god and everyone who believes in one is an idiot", and made 12 year olds take part in ceremonies where they publicly promised never to believe in God and to hold true to their atheistic ideals.

    Merely *not indoctrinating* them in a belief system is not the same thing at all as what I described above which is the equivalent of what's happening now, doubly so if I expect the state to get involved and instil these atheistic ideals in children for me.

    I agree that it is not the same at all. I was responding to a post that said that it was possible to indoctrinate children into being atheists I was asking how it was possible because, I don't belief it to be possible. Despite whats some theists believe there is no atheist belief system that we all adhere to.

    I suppose the other point I was making is that alot of religious people in Ireland appear to be al la carte about their beliefs. And their religion consists of going to mass a couple times a year and going along with the sacraments because its the done thing. I don't think that that constitutes child abuse. When I made my communion and confirmation most of my friends were all thinking about how much money we were going to make. We didn't really think of the significance behind what was happening.


  • #166
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    dad-why-did-god-make-people.jpg

    I fail to see any coherent rationale thus far in this thread for allowing people to stuff this nonsense into formative minds. If I were still a Christian, I think I would cringe at the apologist efforts displayed here.


  • #167
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Because some people on here are trying in vain to connect it with child abuse. Which is absolutely stupid and absurd.

    I don't think it is absurd, one takes an innocent trusting child and mentally rapes it by stuffing its mind full of religious nonsence and frightening the life and soul out of it before it has a chance to enjoy the world.

    Now I think that is more than absurd, it definitely comes under the definition of child abuse, IMO.

    I made sure my own children were free to grow and develop unique and wonderful personalities and I taught them to always question their teachers, they did and made their own minds up.


  • #168
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    gbee wrote: »
    I don't think it is absurd, one takes an innocent trusting child and mentally rapes it.

    Just when I thought they couldn't scrape any lower. This gem appears. :rolleyes:


  • #169
    Improbable
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Just when I thought they couldn't scrape any lower. This gem appears. :rolleyes:

    Well what would you call it when children are brought up in a faith with such horrific policies? The only way to justify it is to just skip over all the nasty bits which you consider abhorrent which kind of makes it irrelevant as you're no longer teaching the child that religion, just your own set of moral values which you could just as easily do without including religion in it at all.

    If your religion is imparting moral truth to you, you sort of have to take the bad with the good.


  • #170
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Just when I thought they couldn't scrape any lower. This gem appears. :rolleyes:

    Don't fall into the trap of thinking that atheists can be grouped just like Catholics or Muslims. It is the equivalent of saying a-teapotists (Russell) or a-unicornists.

    I would agree it was a poor choice of words.


  • #171
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Just when I thought they couldn't scrape any lower. This gem appears. :rolleyes:
    gbee wrote: »
    I don't think it is absurd, one takes an innocent trusting child and mentally rapes it by stuffing its mind full of religious nonsence and frightening the life and soul out of it before it has a chance to enjoy the world.

    Now I think that is more than absurd, it definitely comes under the definition of child abuse, IMO.

    I made sure my own children were free to grow and develop unique and wonderful personalities and I taught them to always question their teachers, they did and made their own minds up.
    Who are "They". Either you know something about gbee that we dont namely that gbee has multiple personalities or is a conjoined twin or you are assuming that all folk who dont believe in gods all have some sort of hive mind or a dogma. They dont.
    I think gbees post is a little ott but at least it is eloquent and constructed unlike any thing you have posted so far. Please try the following.
    Instead of..."Thats just stupid" try "Thats just stupid because...... (Then write more).....


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  • #172
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Just when I thought they couldn't scrape any lower. This gem appears. :rolleyes:

    My conscience is clear. I can stand before your God confident in the knowledge that I cherished my children, I believe this is a commandment, is it not?

    In any event, if there is a God he made more than this puny planet with it's backward small-mindedness.


  • #173
    Quandary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,432 ✭✭✭Quandary


    Maybe change the thread title to "forcing children to join a cult is child abuse". Its a lot easier to then go on to prove that organised religions are merely just well established cults.

    Oxford online states that a Cult by definition is "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object" - sound familiar :)


  • #174
    jayzusb.christ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 235 ✭✭jayzusb.christ


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Just when I thought they couldn't scrape any lower. This gem appears.

    Please explain what is wrong with the statement in question, instead resorting to a sarky sneer.
    I don't necessarily agree with it myself but if you are going to mock it please give reasons for your disapproval.

    And if by 'they' you mean atheists, atheists often have different opinions from one another. Crass generalisations will not help your argument one bit. Though in this post, you don't actually have any argument.

    EDIT: And by the way, while I don't feel that I was abused by being baptised and educated as a Catholic, I feel I would have been a lot happier as a kid without thinking some supernatural Big Brother figure was judging everything I did.


  • #175
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    House wrote: »
    dad-why-did-god-make-people.jpg
    Is that PZ Myers?


  • #176
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Wicknight wrote: »
    You have gone from all parents teach their children is about how God loves them, to brining them to mass where children are taught a lot more than that.

    The last mass I was at a few months ago the priest spend the entire time talking about avoiding hell.

    So this idea that children are shielded from these bits of their religion is nonsense.

    Do you really think children listen to the priest at mass?
    Wicknight wrote: »
    It sounds like most of your friends didn't have a clue what was happening to them.

    What is happening to them?

    I thought they were receiving the holy spirit while you seem to think that it means something else so there is even confusion between us so the children obviously dont fully understand whats going on.


  • #177
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Wicknight wrote: »
    No it doesn't

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp
    http://whynotcatholicism.net/view.php?i=17

    Yes it does

    http://www.ancient-future.net/basics.html
    A few early Christians read them literally, others allegorically, and others in light of the science of the day. Some read them all three ways at the same time. Catholics may interpret Genesis in a non-literal manner so long as the interpretation is faithful to Church Teaching. Thus, Catholics are free to understand Genesis literally, but also to read Genesis in light of modern scientific observations, so long as certain conditions are met. For example, Catholics believe that God created the world from nothing (ex nihilo), and that He created the world through His Word, who became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Interpreting Genesis in light of scientific observations may shock some Christians whose churches were founded during the modernist controversies of the 19th and 20th centuries. Surprisingly, insisting on an entirely literal understanding of the creation stories is actually a quite modern concept.


  • #178
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    pH wrote: »
    Why should children be forced to participate in deity worship.

    If parents are going to mass they can hardly leave their child at home as that would be child neglect. Also children aren't forced into praying at mass - they are not forced to listen to the priest.


    pH wrote: »
    It doesn't matter how you dress it up (and the fact that people have had to add non-religious trappings to it to make the whole thing more palatable to kids) forcing kids to participate in mock cannibalism at the age of 7 is plainly wrong - the fact you give them a few quid to make it bearable is besides the point.

    the word cannibalism is misleading as it is defined as

    "the eating of human flesh by another human being."

    and this is not taught in the Church as it is taught that Jesus was half man half God.
    pH wrote: »
    Not in Ireland today - you can either go to one of 95% of schools which teach a pervasive "catholic" ethos throughout the entire curriculum, or a C of I school )or if you happen to live in the right area and get your name down there are a few ET schools). Your warm and open offer to indoctrinate all children with your faith not withstanding, children all over the world are segregated by faith - just look up north.

    Thats because 95% of the schools were set up by the Catholic Church (one of the few good things the Church for Ireland) and those schools dont teach the OT as literal and the Catholic ethos plays an extremely limited roll - many of these schools have students from other religions in them.
    pH wrote: »
    Ah but Christianity is not all religion - there are others you know.

    I have no idea how other religions are run.


  • #179
    Improbable
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Des Carter wrote: »
    If parents are going to mass they can hardly leave their child at home as that would be child neglect. Also children aren't forced into praying at mass - they are not forced to listen to the priest.

    I suppose you've never heard of babysitters?

    Des Carter wrote: »
    the word cannibalism is misleading as it is defined as

    "the eating of human flesh by another human being."

    and this is not taught in the Church as it is taught that Jesus was half man half God.

    Oh ok, so you don't practice cannibalism on its own, its a mixture of cannibalism and eating your god...


    Question for you then. If you follow the doctrines of the catholic church, as you should be doing if you proclaim yourself to be a "proper" catholic, then surely you must teach your children:

    "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin." There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

    Seems that pretty much everything can be forgiven aside from this. Do you warn them very VERY sternly about the fact that if they are blasphemous towards the holy spirit that they are going to suffer impenitence and eternal loss? Because if everything aside from this can be forgiven, then surely this is one of the most important things to teach them.

    If you truly do believe in the teachings and doctrines of the catholic church and you do tell your kids this, I'm pretty sure that it falls under the category of emotional abuse. If you don't tell them about it, then from your view point, you're risking their existence or whatever the hell its talking about. Surely that's just abuse of another kind...


  • #180
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Improbable wrote: »
    I suppose you've never heard of babysitters?

    Yes for 30 min every sunday while you go to mass :rolleyes:.


    Improbable wrote: »
    "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

    I dont know the bible off by heart so who said this, in what context and to who?


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  • #181
    Improbable
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    It's in the catechism.


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