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Religion is "child abuse" ??

12467…27

Comments

  • #92
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    If it wasn't hurting anyone and made them feel happy and secure then yes.

    Ok, fair enough.
    I respect honesty with oneself, I cannot respect people who aren't even able to be honest with themselves.
    How can they be honest in anything else they do?


  • #93
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Parents want the best for their kids and taking the chance of "damming them to hell" in the event of premature death would be inexcusable.

    It's only inexcusable if you believe in that rubbish.

    I believe that raising children in a religion IS child abuse. I'd also throw Santa Claus into that mix.


    FFS ladies and gentlemen, the ONE and GREATEST gift that children can be given is HONESTY.

    I believe a child needs two rocks, a father and a mother, both need to be honest and truthful, there is a terrible amount of time wasted in a youths' life debating the issues of conflicting doctrines, when he or she should be inventing the next cure for cancer.


  • #94
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    If it wasn't hurting anyone and made them feel happy and secure then yes.

    But the happiness would be in ignorance and security would only be superficial. I dont respect people who are happy being ignorant and I dont understand how someone can be truely secure if they are living a lie. What happens if they are unavoidably confronted with the truth and that secureness goes out the window?

    As for hurting someone? Living a lie always comes back to hurt someone. If its not pedophile priests (supported by The Church who is itself supported by people living the lie of calling themsleves catholoc when they aren't), its homeopathic propaganda spreading aids in Africa (by homeopaths supported by morons in the first world who buy homeopathic placebos). Some of the worst things that have ever happened have happened because people live lies that are sold to them.


  • #95
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Shenshen wrote: »
    It's kind of funny, you must be about the 4th or 5th person coming on claiming that bringing up a child with a Christian background doesn't mean that all the most extreme beliefs of Christianity are force-fed to the poor mite, and anyway it's only a few people doing that at all... when the OP clearly asked if should be the parents' right to INDOCTRINATE their child.

    The link between a mildly religious upbringing and indoctrination seems to be made exclusively by believers.

    It depends on what you mean by indoctrinate.

    the definition - "to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view."

    now honestly I dont really know what that actually means. but if you are asking

    Is it wrong to force-feed all the Churches teachings on children then yes it is wrong.

    However is it wrong to teach them the fundamental teachings of Christianity in a way that isnt harsh/drastic and to tell them your beliefs then no.


  • #96
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    But the happiness would be in ignorance and security would only be superficial. I dont respect people who are happy being ignorant and I dont understand how someone can be truely secure if they are living a lie. What happens if they are unavoidably confronted with the truth and that secureness goes out the window?

    But would you not just let them off to do their own thing if they do not ask for your opinion?

    Im assuming that you would only attack someones beliefs if they put their beliefs out there in a form of a discussion - for example if they ask "Do you believe in God?"


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  • #97
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Des Carter wrote: »
    But would you not just let them off to do their own thing if they do not ask for your opinion?

    Im assuming that you would only attack someones beliefs if they put their beliefs out there in a form of a discussion - for example if they ask "Do you believe in God?"

    Personally, if their beliefs have no impact on me, and they don't insist on telling me about them, I would simply ignore them. I tend not to be evangelical.

    But if they DO impact me, or others I care for in a negative way, I will debate them, and I'm not going to let them off easy.


  • #98
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Shenshen wrote: »
    It teaches that a wife's place is with her husband.

    there are exceptions for example getting a marriage annulled.
    Shenshen wrote: »
    So you agree with the majority here that the parents should not have the right to indoctrinate their children?

    Again it comes back to the definition of indoctrinate. There is a big difference between forcing your beliefs on a child and teaching a child your beliefs.


  • #99
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Des Carter wrote: »
    It depends on what you mean by indoctrinate.

    the definition - "to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view."

    now honestly I dont really know what that actually means. but if you are asking

    Is it wrong to force-feed all the Churches teachings on children then yes it is wrong.

    However is it wrong to teach them the fundamental teachings of Christianity in a way that isnt harsh/drastic and to tell them your beliefs then no.

    "to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief" would be closest to my understanding.
    I take issue when parents clamour for the right NOT to teach their children about something, keeping them deliberately ignorant in the hope that this will make them not question or doubt what the parents want them to belief.
    Manipulation by ignorance, if you want.

    And I do think that in such cases, the right of the child to be educated and informed and have access to the information it requires trumps the right of the parent to keep the child away from all knowledge that doesn't comply with their beliefs.
    They themselves can abstain from education, but they can't force their children to.


  • #100
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Des Carter wrote: »
    there are exceptions for example getting a marriage annulled.

    After 16 years, and with 3 children?
    Good luck with that one....

    Again it comes back to the definition of indoctrinate. There is a big difference between forcing your beliefs on a child and teaching a child your beliefs.

    Yes, and as I said, it appears to be mostly religious people here who equate the two.


  • #101
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    No, it's not just one post or guilt about cheating. There are plenty threads from posters breaking their hearts because their parents have disowned them because they've said they are gay, who can't enjoy fulfilling sex lives or who are so emotionally stunted they can barely have a relationship with someone else and although certainly not always at fault, religion certainly is a recurring theme.

    Thats to do with institutionalised religion and the negative affects that a corrupt Church which used hold a lot of influence has on a society. - nothing to do with child indoctrination.


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  • #102
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Des Carter wrote: »
    But would you not just let them off to do their own thing if they do not ask for your opinion?

    If they didn't ask my opinion, then I wouldn't know what their beliefs are, so I would have no reason to contradict their beliefs, seeing as I wouldn't know what they are.
    Des Carter wrote: »
    Im assuming that you would only attack someones beliefs if they put their beliefs out there in a form of a discussion - for example if they ask "Do you believe in God?"

    How else can you put forward your belief, if not as part or beginning of a discussion?


  • #103
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Des Carter wrote: »
    Thats to do with institutionalised religion and the negative affects that a corrupt Church which used hold a lot of influence has on a society. - nothing to do with child indoctrination.

    And how do you think negative effects are absorbed by the children who go on to have said issues? Watching the news? Reading newspapers about the church - or is it through their parents?


  • #104
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    And how do you think negative effects are absorbed by the children who go on to have said issues? Watching the news? Reading newspapers about the church - or is it through their parents?

    I am not a sociologist and so I dont know but many of these issues are about the parents beliefs and not the person with the problem.


  • #105
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Improbable wrote: »
    Personal belief has nothing to do with truth. How do they know that their religion is the right one? They BELIEVE that it is but there is no logical reason to do so.

    You can say the EXACT same thing about atheism. Its a still a matter of belief. I can understand and respect an atheists "Its just not for me" stance on religion but when they say stupid stuff like its child abuse then its as stupid and as ignorant as they claim to be against.


  • #106
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    I can't help but think that if there was a Satanic cult that did the following:
    • Shower infants in symbolic blood at their birth
    • Mutilate a small bit of their bodies as a mark of their satanhood - maybe lop off an earlobe or a small "666" tattoo.
    • Insist that the kids were given schools with "Satanic Ethos" - insist that these kids shouldn't be mixing with other children at school.
    • Forced kids to learn by rote and repeat satanic chants.
    • Forced kids to have a number of ceremonies where they praised Satan and pledged their lives to him. - Dress the little girls up as "brides" where they symbolically marry Satan.
    • Forced children to partake in mock cannibalistic rituals where they're told they're eating flesh and drinking blood.
    • Told their kids that Satan is always watching them and can punish or reward them for their behaviour.
    Then there'd be an outcry and pretty much everyone would consider it "abuse", yet the mainstream religions can do all this and more and it's them just being nice to their kids and faithful to their beliefs.


  • #107
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Des Carter wrote: »
    I am not a sociologist and so I dont know but many of these issues are about the parents beliefs and not the person with the problem.

    That's my point - and the point of the thread... :confused:


  • #108
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    You can say the EXACT same thing about atheism. Its a still a matter of belief. .

    Can't speak for every atheist, but I told my children there was no God and no Santa ... that did not stop the Christmas celebrations.

    It did not stop them partaking of the RCC sacraments, they must have been amongst the few who 'passed' having been in a church only when taken there by their school. they were 'Baptised' for a quite life but were not brought up as RCC.

    Children, especially children, don't need religion.


  • #109
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    You can say the EXACT same thing about atheism. Its a still a matter of belief. I can understand and respect an atheists "Its just not for me" stance on religion but when they say stupid stuff like its child abuse then its as stupid and as ignorant as they claim to be against.

    What? That makes no sense.

    I understand people who say you shouldn't have sex with children, but that is still just a matter of belief. I undersand and respect them when they say "Its just not for me" on sex with children, but when they say stupid stuff like its child abuse then its as stupid and as ignorant as they claim to be against.

    See what I did there :rolleyes:

    Child abuse is abuse to children. If something abuses a child, mentally or physically, it is child abuse. The fact that this abuse is based on a belief system is utterly irrelevant. Otherwise there would be nothing wrong with NAMBLA.


  • #110
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Wicknight wrote: »
    What? That makes no sense.

    I understand people who say you shouldn't have sex with children, but that is still just a matter of belief. I undersand and respect them when they say "Its just not for me" on sex with children, but when they say stupid stuff like its child abuse then its as stupid and as ignorant as they claim to be against.

    See what I did there :rolleyes:

    Child abuse is abuse to children. If something abuses a child, mentally or physically, it is child abuse. The fact that this abuse is based on a belief system is utterly irrelevant. Otherwise there would be nothing wrong with NAMBLA.

    How the hell is wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others [traits surely lacking in society now] child abuse? Only a complete idiot or borderline retard would try to make a connection of parents bringing their children up in a religious home and values with child abuse. That's stupid and scraping the bottom of the barrel for an excuse to bash religion.


  • #111
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    How the hell is wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others [traits surely lacking in society now] child abuse? Only a complete idiot or borderline retard would try to make a connection of parents bringing their children up in a religious home and values with child abuse. That's stupid and scraping the bottom of the barrel for an excuse to bash religion.

    Wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others is not what we're talking about. How is that in any way related to religion?


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  • #112
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    How the hell is wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others [traits surely lacking in society now] child abuse?

    It isn't. How the hell is indoctrinating your child in your religion wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others?

    If that is all you wanted to do it is utterly unnecessary to mention anything about religion.

    But of course for theists that isn't what they want to do. They want to tell their children that all the supernatural nonsense they believe is true, and a lot of the supernatural nonsense is horrible nasty stuff designed to manipulate through intimidation.

    And horrible nasty stuff design to manipulate through intimidation can very easily be child abuse.

    This is the nonsense of religion, the idea that their stories of God sanctioned genocide and people being thrown into pits of fire is teaching "good morals"

    It is like the KKK saying they are only teaching their children respect for their heritage :rolleyes:


  • #113
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Wanting your child to grow up decent and respectful to others is not what we're talking about. How is that in any way related to religion?

    Because some people on here are trying in vain to connect it with child abuse. Which is absolutely stupid and absurd.


  • #114
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Wicknight wrote: »
    What? That makes no sense.

    I understand people who say you shouldn't have sex with children, but that is still just a matter of belief. I undersand and respect them when they say "Its just not for me" on sex with children, but when they say stupid stuff like its child abuse then its as stupid and as ignorant as they claim to be against.

    See what I did there :rolleyes:

    Child abuse is abuse to children. If something abuses a child, mentally or physically, it is child abuse. The fact that this abuse is based on a belief system is utterly irrelevant. Otherwise there would be nothing wrong with NAMBLA.

    Are you really comparing teaching a child about religion to having sex with a child?

    I can only assume you are pulling the p!ss cause if you are being serious you need to seek professional help straight away.


  • #115
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Des Carter wrote: »
    Are you really comparing teaching a child about religion to having sex with a child?

    I can only assume you are pulling the p!ss cause if you are being serious you need to seek professional help straight away.

    They're trying desperately to make a connection to suit their agenda and beliefs.


  • #116
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Des Carter wrote: »
    Are you really comparing teaching a child about religion to having sex with a child?

    No, I'm comparing a religious person abusing their child defending it under the argument that this is just what they believe to be true with a paedophile abusing their child defending it under the argument that this is just what they believe to be true.

    If you are abusing a child you are abusing a child.

    Why you are abusing them is irrelevant. Saying well we are teaching them our religion and to be respectful to others doesn't make it not child abuse.

    What is this idea theists have that they have the right to do anything and everything to their children so long as it is justifed by religion. You can't say it is child abuse because it is religion and just what the parents believe. Nonsense :rolleyes:


  • #117
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    They're trying desperately to make a connection to suit their agenda and beliefs.

    Do you think a parent has the right to do what ever they like with their children so long as it is in line with their religion?


  • #118
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Because some people on here are trying in vain to connect it with child abuse. Which is absolutely stupid and absurd.

    Nobody here is trying to compare bringing your child up to be respectful of others to child abuse.
    We're comparing bringing your child up to be disrespectful and ignorant to child abuse.


  • #119
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Do you think a parent has the right to do what ever they like with their children so long as it is in line with their religion?

    Are you stupid or just pretending?


  • #120
    Des Carter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Wicknight wrote: »
    But of course for theists that isn't what they want to do. They want to tell their children that all the supernatural nonsense they believe is true, and a lot of the supernatural nonsense is horrible nasty stuff designed to manipulate through intimidation.

    And horrible nasty stuff design to manipulate through intimidation can very easily be child abuse.

    This is the nonsense of religion, the idea that their stories of God sanctioned genocide and people being thrown into pits of fire is teaching "good morals"

    Ok slow down these may be the official teachings of the Church but the vast majority of Christians do not believe/teach this to thir their kids. Most Catholics teach the story of Jesus who did actually exist and that their is a God who loves them and looks after them. - often to comfort the child if they ever feel alone/sad etc.


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  • #121
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Are you stupid or just pretending?

    Do you actually have an argument to make, or are you just around to insult people?


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