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The reason that Ireland is in this state . . Is you . .

  • 26-09-2010 10:53AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Its funny , the concept of delusion and passing the book seems to be always associated with the politician.

    Sometimes, sayings can be inaccurate or just hyperbole and overused but I think I can confidently say that in this country, our government mirror our people.

    Who am I ? A politician or Joe Public -
    • I like to blame others for decisions I made, its never my fault for things that dont go right for me, taking responsibility for ones actions is for other people.
    • I like to only make comparisons of my views when it suits me. If somebody has a conflicting point, I either ignore or shout them down with insults.
    • I know there is pain needed but dont think I should be part of any of it.
    • I believe my pain is the worst and that I got it worse then others.
    • I dont like to be punished for my bad judgement
    • I dont like to be told when I have made bad calls
    • I get angry when people say that doing/saying nothing is just as bad as making the wrong calls
    I could go on, but I think the point is made.

    What I find is that People in Ireland are seldom able to discuss Irish Politics without letting their own ignorance and prejudice cloud constructive debate. I have been classed as an FF spin Doctor simply because I have tried to have open, proper debates about our politicians. This is ignorance of the highest grade and is a cancer on peoples abilities to make the correct choices that our country needs in the next election. I accept FF deserve to be out of government, I dont accept that this means our future government's policies and performances should not be discussed now. And I dont accept that it means people shouldnt vote for good FF politicians.

    I personally think our Government has let us down badly, very very badly. But our electorate have let us down in that we have not even got a credible alternative that gives anybody confidence.(even just an alternative).

    It was funny and sad that Labour's popularity grew for the simple reason they didnt really say much about Cowengate . . Its a terrible inditement of how little our people think of our politicians overall. But its an even poorer reflection on us as a society have helped promote poor quality people into potential positions of serious power. . I had considered getting into politics but really didnt want to because I know that the Irish People will not vote me in unless I drop my morals, principles, tell them what they want to hear and lambast FF.

    Its just so sad . . People are ALL about what they want to hear (not saying its limited to Ireland) and NOTHING has changed and nothing will change unless people start waking up to their ignorance . . Bertie got in and was successful because he said exactly what people wanted to hear.

    Lets take Gilemore for example. . Few (if any) of his party's policies stand up to scrutiny , yet he is saying all the right things, stoking the right fires . . People ignore the uncanny resemblence this kind of politics had with Bertie's FF.

    So how do we make things right ?

    Well, the Irish People have to value Morals and make this an important part of their decision making process when voting. Politicians will follow and mirror its people, but only if the people show courage to match their convictions.

    Once the Irish people realise that the success and failure of this country starts with them and accept responsibility for their role in our collapse, we can begin REAL CHANGE.

    Whether you voted for FF or not is irrelevant. The opposition have been lame so you havent even offered us a decent alternative. Nobody is blameless. Before you start pointing fingers at others for the Ills of this country, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country.


«1345

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Interesting, and if the politician wasn't being paid to manage the country you might actually have a point.

    Everyone has responsibilities and accountability based on their choices.

    However the responsibility increases when they are professionals doing their job.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Op ,are you putting yourself up for election next time around ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    I agree with you. Not only that, I find it funny and sad that the people who are struggling to meet their repayments are the ones who took out the 100% variable interest rate morgage in the first place.

    People can lambast the bankers 'till the cows come home but nobady forced them into risky debt.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    People can lambast the bankers 'till the cows come home but nobady forced them into risky debt.

    Thats a ridiculous thing to say ,by your logic we wouldn't have a growing population.
    There are thousands of couples who had to buy ,because they were starting families.
    (Remember bertie ahern telling people to commit suicide for suggesting anything bad would happen)

    It's these very people who are hit the hardest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    In many cases they were advised by people they trusted to do it.


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  • Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Joey Young Trash


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Thats a ridiculous thing to say ,by your logic we wouldn't have a growing population.
    There are thousands of couples who had to buy ,because they were starting families..

    You don't need to buy a house for a family :confused:
    God knows starting a family is expensive enough already


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    bluewolf wrote: »
    You don't need to buy a house for a family :confused:
    God knows starting a family is expensive enough already



    Thats true, but most people would want a family home, If you were in this situation and the bank advised you to take out a loan and said that you would be able to make the repayments would you have acepted?
    Or would you have turned them down on the basis of a possible economic problem in the future which you were hearing the leaders of the country say did not exist?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    People are always going to be f*cked over by those they elect to office.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    bluewolf wrote: »
    You don't need to buy a house for a family :confused:
    God knows starting a family is expensive enough already

    Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Thats a ridiculous thing to say ,by your logic we wouldn't have a growing population.
    As another poster ha pointed out. You don't need to buy a house to raise a family. A long term rented house would do just as good. Also if people fell they must buy a house they could have bought a smaller one or took out a fixed interest rate.
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    There are thousands of couples who had to buy ,because they were starting families.
    (Remember bertie ahern telling people to commit suicide for suggesting anything bad would happen)
    Again, they didn't have to buy to start a family. And they didn't have to take out 100% variable interest rates. People blaming bankers for their own greed and stupidity is just poor form.
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    It's these very people who are hit the hardest.
    Good. Because it is these people who would have benifited the most had the market not gone down the toilet.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.
    Exactly. They took a risk during the boom and that risk didn't pay off. It's not the bankers fault.


  • Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Joey Young Trash


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.

    You may as well say buying food is investing in someone else's future.
    deisegodeo wrote:
    Thats true, but most people would want a family home, If you were in this situation and the bank advised you to take out a loan and said that you would be able to make the repayments would you have acepted?
    Or would you have turned them down on the basis of a possible economic problem in the future which you were hearing the leaders of the country say did not exist?
    I do understand your point deise, but hearing anyone around me talk of buying in the boom time made me a tad nervous. I wouldn't remotely consider it but then I wasn't in a "starting family" place. I'm very cautious so personally I would have turned them down. And I accept that people may have felt misled.
    If people can't meet repayments because of job loss it's understandable and I am highly sympathetic but still THEIR debt and not the bankers'. If people are complaining about "negative equity" I have no sympathy considering it's supposed to be a home.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Good. Because it is these people who would have benifited the most had the market not gone down the toilet.

    I can think of several people who had no intention on making a fortune from their decision ,they just about got the mortgage for a mediocore property. But it allowed them to work for something etc.

    Theres nothing genius in everybody renting property ,it only creates a major problem when people reach retirement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Exactly. They took a risk during the boom and that risk didn't pay off. It's not the bankers fault.


    The banker who made risky loans available and then advised people who were not able to afford them to take them, all in the name of profit,
    Who is the greedy party here,
    there are thousands of people who took out loans on the advice given to them by the banks, are these people to blame for beleiving the information given to them from what was at the time held to be a trusted source?

    Or are the banks to blame for abusing their position and feeding misinformation to unsuspecting people in order to boost its profits?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    bluewolf wrote: »
    You may as well say buying food is investing in someone else's future.

    No need to be a smart ass ,if people are going to spend there life making ends meet ,what hope have they when they retire ?

    Should we start building government run retirement estates all over the country ,to facilitate all the families renting now ?
    Sure just grow a few money trees.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I can think of several people who had no intention on making a fortune from their decision ,they just about got the mortgage for a mediocore property. But it allowed them to work for something etc.
    If it wasn't their intention of making money then why did they take out a variable interest rate? I have never taken out a mortgage but if I did it would only be under a fixed rate. The less risk involved the better.
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Theres nothing genius in everybody renting property ,it only creates a major problem when people reach retirement.
    People in mainland Europe (i.e France, Germany), don't seem to have that problem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    People in mainland Europe (i.e France, Germany), don't seem to have that problem.

    I don't know how you can compare Ireland with France or Germany :confused:

    Property in france was never as dear as ireland ,people could buy houses over there for €60,000 during our boom years ,when houses where €250,000 here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I agree with you. Not only that, I find it funny and sad that the people who are struggling to meet their repayments are the ones who took out the 100% variable interest rate morgage in the first place.

    People can lambast the bankers 'till the cows come home but nobady forced them into risky debt.

    "Banks are required to ensure that products sold are suitable for the particular circumstances of the customer. "

    The reality is that people have to beeprotected from themselves. Which is why so many things have codes of practice, rules and regulation.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I don't know how you can compare Ireland with France or Germany :confused:

    Property in france was never as dear as ireland ,people could buy houses over there for €60,000 during our boom years ,when houses where €250,000 here.


    you are doing a very good job at defeating your own argument !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    danbohan wrote: »
    you are doing a very good job at defeating your own argument !

    How is that ? ,people aren't under as much pressure to buy a property if they can afford to buy it outright.

    When would an average joe have €250000 euro?

    People were forced to buy because banks supported property prices ,by lending too much.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I don't know how you can compare Ireland with France or Germany :confused:

    Property in france was never as dear as ireland ,people could buy houses over there for €60,000 during our boom years ,when houses where €250,000 here.
    I'm sure there were more expensive houses then €250,000 in France during the boom years. If people chose not to but the more expensive houses then that is good sense, not a French phenomenon.

    Also I don't see what price has to do with it since we are talking about renting.
    BostonB wrote:
    "Banks are required to ensure that products sold are suitable for the particular circumstances of the customer. "

    The reality is that people have to beeprotected from themselves. Which is why so many things have codes of practice, rules and regulation.
    Where did you get that quote from?

    In any case banks are only providing a service to their coustomers. It is up to Joe Bloggs to realise that taking out a 100% variable interest mortgage is stupid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »

    Where did you get that quote from?

    In any case banks are only providing a service to their coustomers. It is up to Joe Bloggs to realise that taking out a 100% variable interest mortgage is stupid.

    Where did you get that quote from ,it wasn't me that posted it:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Drumpot wrote: »
    ...Whether you voted for FF or not is irrelevant. The opposition have been lame so you havent even offered us a decent alternative. Nobody is blameless. Before you start pointing fingers at others for the Ills of this country, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country.

    Well theres a tiny element of truth in this. The levels of blame between your average joe soap who didn't get sucked into the property bubble, didn't vote FF, and the bankers, developers and polictians who inflamed the bubble on a scale previously unimaginable. Are not comparable.

    IMO, rather than accepting responsiblity for anything, this idea of sharing the blame across the general population seems to be a means of shifting reponsibility away from FF, Banks, developers etc. Its the pass the buck mentality, that means no one is responsibilty for anything. Where a Govt, and/or minister is not responsible for anything.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ4axo9rmJY


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Where did you get that quote from ,it wasn't me that posted it:D
    Fixed. :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    ...Where did you get that quote from?

    In any case banks are only providing a service to their coustomers. It is up to Joe Bloggs to realise that taking out a 100% variable interest mortgage is stupid.

    AFAIK its from...
    general Consumer Protection Code for financial institutions, including banks, was introduced by the Financial Regulator in August 2006 and became fully effective from July 2006.

    I couldn't find a direct link.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,677 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.

    you would need to go back as far as around 2003 for rent to have been more expensive than a mortgage


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    How is that ? ,people aren't under as much pressure to buy a property if they can afford to buy it outright.

    When would an average joe have €250000 euro?

    People were forced to buy because banks supported property prices ,by lending too much.

    In the south of France 2 bed apartments are being sold for 300,000 to 400,000 eur and more. I was looking at property supplements there as recently as July.

    The difference being that the ordinary French person doesn't buy them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,560 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    FFS, at what point do people take responsibility for their financial choices? During the boom I knew I couldn't afford to buy (or to buy anything that I would actually want to live in), even though any bank would have given me a loan for pretty much whatever range I wanted. People who claim that they didn't understand what they were getting into are idiots: why would you sign paperwork for a transaction worth a quarter-million euros without fully reading everything and understanding what you were doing? Hell, if you are willing to sign the dotted line for $250K, at least shell out $200 first to talk things over with an independent solicitor or accountant.

    As for FF, the whole "there are good individual legislators, but they are a bad party" thing is also a load of BS. Because of the party whip system, FF members will not vote against their party, even if it is in the best interests of the country for them to do so. So even if someone is a good individual, they are still part of the same rotten machine. And perhaps my memory fails me, but I can't think of any FF legislators who were screaming "STOP!!!" during the boom years, nor any now who are openly challenging party orthodoxy on the wisdom of funding NAMA.

    The operative word here is HYPE. Politicians bought into the hype that Ireland would be on the up-and-up forever, and spent public funds based on la-la-land growth estimates. Regular folks bought overpriced, poorly built houses with 90-minute work commutes because real estate was overly-hyped, and, sure "that's what you do". And now sensible people are being expected to pay for - or worse yet, accept blame for - the bad decisions of both the political parties and financially irresponsible individuals? Madness :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    The reason we are in the state we are in is we are a nation with a high level of gob****es who still have a decent percentage of the population still adoring those have brought us to the edge of a cliff as a country.

    1. We have Bertie Ahern telling the media last week that he is craftiest most cunning of them all, and the media people bloody laugh at this corrupt ego driven fool.

    2. We have Biffo Cowen at the ploghing championship with people coming over to shake his hand.

    3. Seanie Fitzpatrick was gretted warmly and offered tea by lawyers in the Barristers tea rooms of the 4 courts.

    These are three individuals that should be utterly detested by 99% of the country for what they have done, yet that is not the case. It sickens me and it would not be the case in any other respected EU country. We as a people are an unfunny joke


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.

    Wow, truely wow.


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