The reason that Ireland is in this state . . Is you . .

Drumpot

Its funny , the concept of delusion and passing the book seems to be always associated with the politician.

Sometimes, sayings can be inaccurate or just hyperbole and overused but I think I can confidently say that in this country, our government mirror our people.

Who am I ? A politician or Joe Public -

• I like to blame others for decisions I made, its never my fault for things that dont go right for me, taking responsibility for ones actions is for other people.
• I like to only make comparisons of my views when it suits me. If somebody has a conflicting point, I either ignore or shout them down with insults.
• I know there is pain needed but dont think I should be part of any of it.
• I believe my pain is the worst and that I got it worse then others.
• I dont like to be punished for my bad judgement
• I dont like to be told when I have made bad calls
• I get angry when people say that doing/saying nothing is just as bad as making the wrong calls

I could go on, but I think the point is made.

What I find is that People in Ireland are seldom able to discuss Irish Politics without letting their own ignorance and prejudice cloud constructive debate. I have been classed as an FF spin Doctor simply because I have tried to have open, proper debates about our politicians. This is ignorance of the highest grade and is a cancer on peoples abilities to make the correct choices that our country needs in the next election. I accept FF deserve to be out of government, I dont accept that this means our future government's policies and performances should not be discussed now. And I dont accept that it means people shouldnt vote for good FF politicians.

I personally think our Government has let us down badly, very very badly. But our electorate have let us down in that we have not even got a credible alternative that gives anybody confidence.(even just an alternative).

It was funny and sad that Labour's popularity grew for the simple reason they didnt really say much about Cowengate . . Its a terrible inditement of how little our people think of our politicians overall. But its an even poorer reflection on us as a society have helped promote poor quality people into potential positions of serious power. . I had considered getting into politics but really didnt want to because I know that the Irish People will not vote me in unless I drop my morals, principles, tell them what they want to hear and lambast FF.

Its just so sad . . People are ALL about what they want to hear (not saying its limited to Ireland) and NOTHING has changed and nothing will change unless people start waking up to their ignorance . . Bertie got in and was successful because he said exactly what people wanted to hear.

Lets take Gilemore for example. . Few (if any) of his party's policies stand up to scrutiny , yet he is saying all the right things, stoking the right fires . . People ignore the uncanny resemblence this kind of politics had with Bertie's FF.

So how do we make things right ?

Well, the Irish People have to value Morals and make this an important part of their decision making process when voting. Politicians will follow and mirror its people, but only if the people show courage to match their convictions.

Once the Irish people realise that the success and failure of this country starts with them and accept responsibility for their role in our collapse, we can begin REAL CHANGE.

Whether you voted for FF or not is irrelevant. The opposition have been lame so you havent even offered us a decent alternative. Nobody is blameless. Before you start pointing fingers at others for the Ills of this country, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country.

Liam Byrne

Interesting, and if the politician wasn't being paid to manage the country you might actually have a point.

Everyone has responsibilities and accountability based on their choices.

However the responsibility increases when they are professionals doing their job.

yoshytoshy

Op ,are you putting yourself up for election next time around ?

Iwasfrozen

I agree with you. Not only that, I find it funny and sad that the people who are struggling to meet their repayments are the ones who took out the 100% variable interest rate morgage in the first place.

People can lambast the bankers 'till the cows come home but nobady forced them into risky debt.

yoshytoshy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

People can lambast the bankers 'till the cows come home but nobady forced them into risky debt.

Thats a ridiculous thing to say ,by your logic we wouldn't have a growing population.
There are thousands of couples who had to buy ,because they were starting families.
(Remember bertie ahern telling people to commit suicide for suggesting anything bad would happen)

It's these very people who are hit the hardest.

deise go deo

In many cases they were advised by people they trusted to do it.

yoshytoshy

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Thats a ridiculous thing to say ,by your logic we wouldn't have a growing population.
There are thousands of couples who had to buy ,because they were starting families..

You don't need to buy a house for a family
God knows starting a family is expensive enough already

deise go deo

bluewolf wrote: »

You don't need to buy a house for a family
God knows starting a family is expensive enough already

Thats true, but most people would want a family home, If you were in this situation and the bank advised you to take out a loan and said that you would be able to make the repayments would you have acepted?
Or would you have turned them down on the basis of a possible economic problem in the future which you were hearing the leaders of the country say did not exist?

PeterIanStaker

People are always going to be f*cked over by those they elect to office.

yoshytoshy

bluewolf wrote: »

You don't need to buy a house for a family
God knows starting a family is expensive enough already

Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.

Iwasfrozen

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Thats a ridiculous thing to say ,by your logic we wouldn't have a growing population.

As another poster ha pointed out. You don't need to buy a house to raise a family. A long term rented house would do just as good. Also if people fell they must buy a house they could have bought a smaller one or took out a fixed interest rate.

yoshytoshy wrote: »

There are thousands of couples who had to buy ,because they were starting families.
(Remember bertie ahern telling people to commit suicide for suggesting anything bad would happen)

Again, they didn't have to buy to start a family. And they didn't have to take out 100% variable interest rates. People blaming bankers for their own greed and stupidity is just poor form.

yoshytoshy wrote: »

It's these very people who are hit the hardest.

Good. Because it is these people who would have benifited the most had the market not gone down the toilet.

Iwasfrozen

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.

Exactly. They took a risk during the boom and that risk didn't pay off. It's not the bankers fault.

yoshytoshy

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.

You may as well say buying food is investing in someone else's future.

deisegodeo wrote:

Thats true, but most people would want a family home, If you were in this situation and the bank advised you to take out a loan and said that you would be able to make the repayments would you have acepted?
Or would you have turned them down on the basis of a possible economic problem in the future which you were hearing the leaders of the country say did not exist?

I do understand your point deise, but hearing anyone around me talk of buying in the boom time made me a tad nervous. I wouldn't remotely consider it but then I wasn't in a "starting family" place. I'm very cautious so personally I would have turned them down. And I accept that people may have felt misled.
If people can't meet repayments because of job loss it's understandable and I am highly sympathetic but still THEIR debt and not the bankers'. If people are complaining about "negative equity" I have no sympathy considering it's supposed to be a home.

yoshytoshy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Good. Because it is these people who would have benifited the most had the market not gone down the toilet.

I can think of several people who had no intention on making a fortune from their decision ,they just about got the mortgage for a mediocore property. But it allowed them to work for something etc.

Theres nothing genius in everybody renting property ,it only creates a major problem when people reach retirement.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Exactly. They took a risk during the boom and that risk didn't pay off. It's not the bankers fault.

The banker who made risky loans available and then advised people who were not able to afford them to take them, all in the name of profit,
Who is the greedy party here,
there are thousands of people who took out loans on the advice given to them by the banks, are these people to blame for beleiving the information given to them from what was at the time held to be a trusted source?

Or are the banks to blame for abusing their position and feeding misinformation to unsuspecting people in order to boost its profits?

yoshytoshy

bluewolf wrote: »

You may as well say buying food is investing in someone else's future.

No need to be a smart ass ,if people are going to spend there life making ends meet ,what hope have they when they retire ?

Should we start building government run retirement estates all over the country ,to facilitate all the families renting now ?
Sure just grow a few money trees.

Iwasfrozen

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I can think of several people who had no intention on making a fortune from their decision ,they just about got the mortgage for a mediocore property. But it allowed them to work for something etc.

If it wasn't their intention of making money then why did they take out a variable interest rate? I have never taken out a mortgage but if I did it would only be under a fixed rate. The less risk involved the better.

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Theres nothing genius in everybody renting property ,it only creates a major problem when people reach retirement.

People in mainland Europe (i.e France, Germany), don't seem to have that problem.

yoshytoshy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

People in mainland Europe (i.e France, Germany), don't seem to have that problem.

I don't know how you can compare Ireland with France or Germany

Property in france was never as dear as ireland ,people could buy houses over there for €60,000 during our boom years ,when houses where €250,000 here.

BostonB

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I agree with you. Not only that, I find it funny and sad that the people who are struggling to meet their repayments are the ones who took out the 100% variable interest rate morgage in the first place.

People can lambast the bankers 'till the cows come home but nobady forced them into risky debt.

"Banks are required to ensure that products sold are suitable for the particular circumstances of the customer. "

The reality is that people have to beeprotected from themselves. Which is why so many things have codes of practice, rules and regulation.

danbohan

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I don't know how you can compare Ireland with France or Germany

Property in france was never as dear as ireland ,people could buy houses over there for €60,000 during our boom years ,when houses where €250,000 here.

you are doing a very good job at defeating your own argument !

yoshytoshy

danbohan wrote: »

you are doing a very good job at defeating your own argument !

How is that ? ,people aren't under as much pressure to buy a property if they can afford to buy it outright.

When would an average joe have €250000 euro?

People were forced to buy because banks supported property prices ,by lending too much.

Iwasfrozen

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I don't know how you can compare Ireland with France or Germany

Property in france was never as dear as ireland ,people could buy houses over there for €60,000 during our boom years ,when houses where €250,000 here.

I'm sure there were more expensive houses then €250,000 in France during the boom years. If people chose not to but the more expensive houses then that is good sense, not a French phenomenon.

Also I don't see what price has to do with it since we are talking about renting.

BostonB wrote:

"Banks are required to ensure that products sold are suitable for the particular circumstances of the customer. "

The reality is that people have to beeprotected from themselves. Which is why so many things have codes of practice, rules and regulation.

Where did you get that quote from?

In any case banks are only providing a service to their coustomers. It is up to Joe Bloggs to realise that taking out a 100% variable interest mortgage is stupid.

yoshytoshy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Where did you get that quote from?

In any case banks are only providing a service to their coustomers. It is up to Joe Bloggs to realise that taking out a 100% variable interest mortgage is stupid.

Where did you get that quote from ,it wasn't me that posted it:D

BostonB

Drumpot wrote: »

...Whether you voted for FF or not is irrelevant. The opposition have been lame so you havent even offered us a decent alternative. Nobody is blameless. Before you start pointing fingers at others for the Ills of this country, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country.

Well theres a tiny element of truth in this. The levels of blame between your average joe soap who didn't get sucked into the property bubble, didn't vote FF, and the bankers, developers and polictians who inflamed the bubble on a scale previously unimaginable. Are not comparable.

IMO, rather than accepting responsiblity for anything, this idea of sharing the blame across the general population seems to be a means of shifting reponsibility away from FF, Banks, developers etc. Its the pass the buck mentality, that means no one is responsibilty for anything. Where a Govt, and/or minister is not responsible for anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ4axo9rmJY

Iwasfrozen

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Where did you get that quote from ,it wasn't me that posted it:D

Fixed. :P

BostonB

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

...Where did you get that quote from?

In any case banks are only providing a service to their coustomers. It is up to Joe Bloggs to realise that taking out a 100% variable interest mortgage is stupid.

AFAIK its from...

general Consumer Protection Code for financial institutions, including banks, was introduced by the Financial Regulator in August 2006 and became fully effective from July 2006.

I couldn't find a direct link.

irishh_bob

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.

you would need to go back as far as around 2003 for rent to have been more expensive than a mortgage

dan_d

yoshytoshy wrote: »

How is that ? ,people aren't under as much pressure to buy a property if they can afford to buy it outright.

When would an average joe have €250000 euro?

People were forced to buy because banks supported property prices ,by lending too much.

In the south of France 2 bed apartments are being sold for 300,000 to 400,000 eur and more. I was looking at property supplements there as recently as July.

The difference being that the ordinary French person doesn't buy them.

southsiderosie

FFS, at what point do people take responsibility for their financial choices? During the boom I knew I couldn't afford to buy (or to buy anything that I would actually want to live in), even though any bank would have given me a loan for pretty much whatever range I wanted. People who claim that they didn't understand what they were getting into are idiots: why would you sign paperwork for a transaction worth a quarter-million euros without fully reading everything and understanding what you were doing? Hell, if you are willing to sign the dotted line for $250K, at least shell out $200 first to talk things over with an independent solicitor or accountant.

As for FF, the whole "there are good individual legislators, but they are a bad party" thing is also a load of BS. Because of the party whip system, FF members will not vote against their party, even if it is in the best interests of the country for them to do so. So even if someone is a good individual, they are still part of the same rotten machine. And perhaps my memory fails me, but I can't think of any FF legislators who were screaming "STOP!!!" during the boom years, nor any now who are openly challenging party orthodoxy on the wisdom of funding NAMA.

The operative word here is HYPE. Politicians bought into the hype that Ireland would be on the up-and-up forever, and spent public funds based on la-la-land growth estimates. Regular folks bought overpriced, poorly built houses with 90-minute work commutes because real estate was overly-hyped, and, sure "that's what you do". And now sensible people are being expected to pay for - or worse yet, accept blame for - the bad decisions of both the political parties and financially irresponsible individuals? Madness :mad:

maynooth_rules

The reason we are in the state we are in is we are a nation with a high level of gob****es who still have a decent percentage of the population still adoring those have brought us to the edge of a cliff as a country.

1. We have Bertie Ahern telling the media last week that he is craftiest most cunning of them all, and the media people bloody laugh at this corrupt ego driven fool.

2. We have Biffo Cowen at the ploghing championship with people coming over to shake his hand.

3. Seanie Fitzpatrick was gretted warmly and offered tea by lawyers in the Barristers tea rooms of the 4 courts.

These are three individuals that should be utterly detested by 99% of the country for what they have done, yet that is not the case. It sickens me and it would not be the case in any other respected EU country. We as a people are an unfunny joke

fontanalis

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.

Wow, truely wow.

southsiderosie

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats true, but most people would want a family home, If you were in this situation and the bank advised you to take out a loan and said that you would be able to make the repayments would you have acepted?
Or would you have turned them down on the basis of a possible economic problem in the future which you were hearing the leaders of the country say did not exist?

I would look at budget and look at the terms of the loan. Frankly, if you have to take out a 100% mortgage, you cannot afford to buy a house.

Yes, most people want a family home, but what's worse: renting a place until you can afford to buy, or putting the long-term financial stability of you and your family at risk by buying a house that you cannot afford? My parents didn't buy a place until I was 11 years old, and by then they had three kids. I don't feel deprived by having lived in a rented apartment for more than half of my childhood, and my parents will be able to retire having gotten all of us through school and owning their house outright.

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Rent was more expensive than buying during the boom ,so it didn't make sense for people to invest in someone elses future.

Given the kind of loans many people took out, rent was only more expensive if you were using a two-year time frame. And if you have a 100% mortgage, you are essentially renting the house from the bank anyway.

Benito

Drumpot wrote: »

Its funny , the concept of delusion and passing the book seems to be always associated with the politician.

Sometimes, sayings can be inaccurate or just hyperbole and overused but I think I can confidently say that in this country, our government mirror our people.

Who am I ? A politician or Joe Public -

• I like to blame others for decisions I made, its never my fault for things that dont go right for me, taking responsibility for ones actions is for other people.
• I like to only make comparisons of my views when it suits me. If somebody has a conflicting point, I either ignore or shout them down with insults.
• I know there is pain needed but dont think I should be part of any of it.
• I believe my pain is the worst and that I got it worse then others.
• I dont like to be punished for my bad judgement
• I dont like to be told when I have made bad calls
• I get angry when people say that doing/saying nothing is just as bad as making the wrong calls

I could go on, but I think the point is made.

What I find is that People in Ireland are seldom able to discuss Irish Politics without letting their own ignorance and prejudice cloud constructive debate. I have been classed as an FF spin Doctor simply because I have tried to have open, proper debates about our politicians. This is ignorance of the highest grade and is a cancer on peoples abilities to make the correct choices that our country needs in the next election. I accept FF deserve to be out of government, I dont accept that this means our future government's policies and performances should not be discussed now. And I dont accept that it means people shouldnt vote for good FF politicians.

I personally think our Government has let us down badly, very very badly. But our electorate have let us down in that we have not even got a credible alternative that gives anybody confidence.(even just an alternative).

It was funny and sad that Labour's popularity grew for the simple reason they didnt really say much about Cowengate . . Its a terrible inditement of how little our people think of our politicians overall. But its an even poorer reflection on us as a society have helped promote poor quality people into potential positions of serious power. . I had considered getting into politics but really didnt want to because I know that the Irish People will not vote me in unless I drop my morals, principles, tell them what they want to hear and lambast FF.

Its just so sad . . People are ALL about what they want to hear (not saying its limited to Ireland) and NOTHING has changed and nothing will change unless people start waking up to their ignorance . . Bertie got in and was successful because he said exactly what people wanted to hear.

Lets take Gilemore for example. . Few (if any) of his party's policies stand up to scrutiny , yet he is saying all the right things, stoking the right fires . . People ignore the uncanny resemblence this kind of politics had with Bertie's FF.

So how do we make things right ?

Well, the Irish People have to value Morals and make this an important part of their decision making process when voting. Politicians will follow and mirror its people, but only if the people show courage to match their convictions.

Once the Irish people realise that the success and failure of this country starts with them and accept responsibility for their role in our collapse, we can begin REAL CHANGE.

Whether you voted for FF or not is irrelevant. The opposition have been lame so you havent even offered us a decent alternative. Nobody is blameless. Before you start pointing fingers at others for the Ills of this country, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country.

I've read and re-read this. What it boils down to is 'we are were we are'
TOTAL FF SPIN

I Dissent

Liam Byrne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I find it funny and sad that the people who are struggling to meet their repayments are the ones who took out the 100% variable interest rate morgage in the first place.

That's an amazingly inaccurate claim to make. Many people who are struggling do not have 100% mortgages.

Liam Byrne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I agree with you. Not only that, I find it funny and sad that the people who are struggling to meet their repayments are the ones who took out the 100% variable interest rate morgage in the first place.

People can lambast the bankers 'till the cows come home but nobady forced them into risky debt.

And who forced Anglo & Co, or their bondholders, etc, into "risky debt" ?
Who forced the dodgy transaction between Anglo & IL&P ?

The issue in Ireland is not that everyone wanted to be bailed out; it's the fact that FF chose to bail out the banks and the bondholders because of THEIR crap decisions, and AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THAT the people who are being forced to foot that bill are saying "hang on a sec".

If EVERYONE who made dodgy investments was made take the relative hit, proportional to the risk they took, then there would be no issue and no calls for fairness, because the fairness would be reflected by the amount that you owed / gambled on.

FF's sickening approach has led to an imbalance in which the banks and bondholders (and developers) who made massive profits (and therefore have equity built up) due to government policies are being bailed out, while the ordinary Joe who borrowed within his means, didn't gamble and played fair is being taxed more to pay those same people.

THAT is what is wrong, and it exists because of FF actions.

Shea O'Meara

Drumpot wrote: »

Its funny , the concept of delusion and passing the book seems to be always associated with the politician.

Sometimes, sayings can be inaccurate or just hyperbole and overused but I think I can confidently say that in this country, our government mirror our people.




Who am I ? A politician or Joe Public -

• I like to blame others for decisions I made, its never my fault for things that dont go right for me, taking responsibility for ones actions is for other people.
• I like to only make comparisons of my views when it suits me. If somebody has a conflicting point, I either ignore or shout them down with insults.
• I know there is pain needed but dont think I should be part of any of it.
• I believe my pain is the worst and that I got it worse then others.
• I dont like to be punished for my bad judgement
• I dont like to be told when I have made bad calls
• I get angry when people say that doing/saying nothing is just as bad as making the wrong calls

In answer to your question, you seem a rather condescending self-righteous person. All off the above is mere opinion on your behalf but you seem to believe it to be fact. The sweeping points above are at best patronising but possibly just plain insulting.

Drumpot wrote: »

What I find is that People in Ireland are seldom able to discuss Irish Politics without letting their own ignorance and prejudice cloud constructive debate.

Again with the broad brush. I could say people who don't like or agree with what they hear view it as 'ignorance and prejudice'. That's basically saying anyone you disagree with is only doing so because they don't understand how correct you are.

Drumpot wrote: »

I have been classed as an FF spin Doctor simply because I have tried to have open, proper debates about our politicians. This is ignorance of the highest grade and is a cancer on peoples abilities to make the correct choices that our country needs in the next election. I accept FF deserve to be out of government, I dont accept that this means our future government's policies and performances should not be discussed now. And I dont accept that it means people shouldnt vote for good FF politicians.

Again you are under the assumption that anyone who holds a strong or firm opinion against say, FFail, (not that you are speaking on their behalf), is ignorant for not being open to a possible FFail vote, 'I dont accept that it means people shouldnt vote for good FF politicians'.

Drumpot wrote: »

I personally think our Government has let us down badly, very very badly. But our electorate have let us down in that we have not even got a credible alternative that gives anybody confidence.(even just an alternative).

Just be careful here. By saying we don't have a credible alternative, it sounds awfully like you are telling us we should stick with FFail. Just so you know lest...... I do enjoy the journalism style trick in here; 'The government has let us down badly, very very badly'. Hey this guy seems fair minded, if anything he might be even anti-government! 'But our electorate have let us down in that we have not even got a credible alternative that gives anybody confidence.(even just an alternative).' Aww no wait....

Drumpot wrote: »

I had considered getting into politics but really didnt want to because I know that the Irish People will not vote me in unless I drop my morals, principles, tell them what they want to hear and lambast FF.

I want my politicians to lambast FFail. Why is this wrong in your world? Why would anyone lambasting FFail be of low or no morals? Maybe they lambast them because they need it constantly or are you favouring the 'That was in the past' FFail party line? This FFail past has gone from years to weeks to days, yet we should 'move on.':rolleyes:

Drumpot wrote: »

Its just so sad . . People are ALL about what they want to hear (not saying its limited to Ireland) and NOTHING has changed and nothing will change unless people start waking up to their ignorance . . Bertie got in and was successful because he said exactly what people wanted to hear.

Lets take Gilemore for example. . Few (if any) of his party's policies stand up to scrutiny , yet he is saying all the right things, stoking the right fires . . People ignore the uncanny resemblence this kind of politics had with Bertie's FF.

Pretty much comparing Gilmore to Bertie, well done. *slow hand clap*

Drumpot wrote: »

So how do we make things right ?

Well, the Irish People have to value Morals and make this an important part of their decision making process when voting. Politicians will follow and mirror its people, but only if the people show courage to match their convictions.

Once the Irish people realise that the success and failure of this country starts with them and accept responsibility for their role in our collapse, we can begin REAL CHANGE.

We know a lot of people were involved in our collapse. It's not lack of moral fortitude that makes us go blaming bankers and politicians, it's common sense. You see the real problem with your viewpoint is it presumes everybody in Ireland borrowed rings around them and or knew we were screwed but were enjoying the ride too much to care. It's pretty ignorant.

Drumpot wrote: »

Whether you voted for FF or not is irrelevant. The opposition have been lame so you havent even offered us a decent alternative. Nobody is blameless. Before you start pointing fingers at others for the Ills of this country, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country.

Are you in fact Glenn Beck?

Jumpy

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

People are always going to be f*cked over by those they elect to office.

Only when they keep voting based on family tradition rather than who is actually capable of leading.

FactSeeker

Drumpot wrote: »

Its funny , the concept of delusion and passing the book seems to be always associated with the politician.

Sometimes, sayings can be inaccurate or just hyperbole and overused but I think I can confidently say that in this country, our government mirror our people.

Who am I ? A politician or Joe Public -

• I like to blame others for decisions I made, its never my fault for things that dont go right for me, taking responsibility for ones actions is for other people.
• I like to only make comparisons of my views when it suits me. If somebody has a conflicting point, I either ignore or shout them down with insults.
• I know there is pain needed but dont think I should be part of any of it.
• I believe my pain is the worst and that I got it worse then others.
• I dont like to be punished for my bad judgement
• I dont like to be told when I have made bad calls
• I get angry when people say that doing/saying nothing is just as bad as making the wrong calls

I could go on, but I think the point is made.

What I find is that People in Ireland are seldom able to discuss Irish Politics without letting their own ignorance and prejudice cloud constructive debate. I have been classed as an FF spin Doctor simply because I have tried to have open, proper debates about our politicians. This is ignorance of the highest grade and is a cancer on peoples abilities to make the correct choices that our country needs in the next election. I accept FF deserve to be out of government, I dont accept that this means our future government's policies and performances should not be discussed now. And I dont accept that it means people shouldnt vote for good FF politicians.

I personally think our Government has let us down badly, very very badly. But our electorate have let us down in that we have not even got a credible alternative that gives anybody confidence.(even just an alternative).

It was funny and sad that Labour's popularity grew for the simple reason they didnt really say much about Cowengate . . Its a terrible inditement of how little our people think of our politicians overall. But its an even poorer reflection on us as a society have helped promote poor quality people into potential positions of serious power. . I had considered getting into politics but really didnt want to because I know that the Irish People will not vote me in unless I drop my morals, principles, tell them what they want to hear and lambast FF.

Its just so sad . . People are ALL about what they want to hear (not saying its limited to Ireland) and NOTHING has changed and nothing will change unless people start waking up to their ignorance . . Bertie got in and was successful because he said exactly what people wanted to hear.

Lets take Gilemore for example. . Few (if any) of his party's policies stand up to scrutiny , yet he is saying all the right things, stoking the right fires . . People ignore the uncanny resemblence this kind of politics had with Bertie's FF.

So how do we make things right ?

Well, the Irish People have to value Morals and make this an important part of their decision making process when voting. Politicians will follow and mirror its people, but only if the people show courage to match their convictions.

Once the Irish people realise that the success and failure of this country starts with them and accept responsibility for their role in our collapse, we can begin REAL CHANGE.

Whether you voted for FF or not is irrelevant. The opposition have been lame so you havent even offered us a decent alternative. Nobody is blameless. Before you start pointing fingers at others for the Ills of this country, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country.

I'm not surprised you've been classed a FF spin doctor as the above post is pure FF nonsense.

This is the line FF have been pushing and will continue to push harder and harder as things deteriorate.

"Everyone's to blame, therefore no one's to blame".

So don't waste time and energy looking at the details of Anglo, NAMA, etc and who benefitted and will benefit.

It's similar to the line FFers are now pushing about politicians.... "Sure they're all the same, all as bad as each other."

Rabble Rabble

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I don't know how you can compare Ireland with France or Germany

Property in france was never as dear as ireland ,people could buy houses over there for €60,000 during our boom years ,when houses where €250,000 here.

Try and work out why it was cheaper.

Rabble Rabble

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

We know a lot of people were involved in our collapse. It's not lack of moral fortitude that makes us go blaming bankers and politicians, it's common sense. You see the real problem with your viewpoint is it presumes everybody in Ireland borrowed rings around them and or knew we were screwed but were enjoying the ride too much to care. It's pretty ignorant.

The people complaining the most are the people who are in negative equity, the very people who - on these very boards - denied that there would ever ever ever be a crash. Any attempt by any government to control the credit would have caused a mini-crash at the time - that was the only way out of this mess.

That would have caused the same people to get mad at the same politicians who didn't act.

If you bought a house, you are respnsible. The state has paid for 14 years, or 18 years of your education. Economics is relatively simple and there were plenty of people calling the boom a bubble - like David McWilliams.

If you bought a house, you did it on your own head. You are an adult not an infant.

yoshytoshy

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Try and work out why it was cheaper.

I was in France for a while and have my own opinion on why things are different in France and thats why I like their way of doing things.

We're not just talking about banks here ,I by the way am not in negative equity ,the government sat back and tore in stamp duty and let the banks run riot.
It was a circlejerk ,thats about it.

Rabble Rabble

Jumpy wrote: »

Only when they keep voting based on family tradition rather than who is actually capable of leading.

There wont be real change until people who, whether they voted for FF or not, admit that the property bubble was caused by people buying houses. Developers were just house ( or land) buyers on a large scale. They too believed their own myths, property never falls yada yada yada.

I once told a group of middle class people in a party in Dublin where I had been for university ( I am English of Irish decent) that property would definitely fall and by 50% in real terms, or even over-shoot.

The atmosphere changed, imeeditately. It was liked I took my dick out and pissed over the turkey.

Are we going to put all these people and their beliefs down the memory hole? Are they now at their parties blaming the guvmint? Evil FF.

grow up. You were an adult. if you bought a house - which is an investment - you are as much to blame as a developer.

Rabble Rabble

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I was in France for a while and have my own opinion on why things are different in France and thats why I like their way of doing things.

We're not just talking about banks here ,I by the way am not in negative equity ,the government sat back and tore in stamp duty and let the banks run riot.
It was a circlejerk ,thats about it.

They did what with stamp duty?

yoshytoshy

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

They did what with stamp duty?

Grow up ,you're an adult.

FreudianSlippers

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

There wont be real change until people who, whether they voted for FF or not, admit that the property bubble was caused by people buying houses. Developers were just house ( or land) buyers on a large scale. They too believed their own myths, property never falls yada yada yada.

I once told a group of middle class people in a party in Dublin where I had been for university ( I am English) that property would definitely fall and by 50% in real terms, or even over-shoot.

The atmosphere changed, imeeditately. It was liked I took my dick out and pissed over the turkey.

Are we going to put all these people and their beliefs down the memory hole? Are they now at their parties blaming the guvmint? Evil FF.

grow up. You were an adult. if you bought a house - which is an investment - you are as much to blame as a developer.

That is if you bought a house you cannot afford. Many people purchased houses well within their means.

Shea O'Meara

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

The people complaining the most are the people who are in negative equity, the very people who - on these very boards - denied that there would ever ever ever be a crash. Any attempt by any government to control the credit would have caused a mini-crash at the time - that was the only way out of this mess.

That would have caused the same people to get mad at the same politicians who didn't act.

If you bought a house, you are respnsible. The state has paid for 14 years, or 18 years of your education. Economics is relatively simple and there were plenty of people calling the boom a bubble - like David McWilliams.

If you bought a house, you did it on your own head. You are an adult not an infant.

To believe every single one of us is equally to blame, you need believe the above.
Unlike you I cannot claim to know the financial deals of everybody on boards you disagree with.
Speaking for myself and others I know personally the only ones who purchased property were new young families. They live in various counties due to purchasing what was within their budget.
All through the Celtic Tiger, which I always called a myth and was pretty must laughed at by the way, the only upside I saw in my neigbourhood was a glut of minimum wage jobs.
Many of my friends and I knew this would end badly but are not the movers and shakers of Irish society as you would have us believe. All we could do, is what we always do, work, pay our bills, pay tax and hope, yes hope we have jobs in the near future. You tell me what, for instance me or any as I described above could have done to stop the collapse and more importantly at this juncture, why I should take a share of the blame?

Liam Byrne

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

There wont be real change until people who, whether they voted for FF or not, admit that the property bubble was caused by people buying houses. Developers were just house ( or land) buyers on a large scale. They too believed their own myths, property never falls yada yada yada.

Many people didn't believe this. But they still have to pay.

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

You were an adult. if you bought a house - which is an investment - you are as much to blame as a developer.

I bought a house, at a fairly reasonable price, and I'm not looking for a bailout; things might be tight but I accept my responsibility......I got a loan and I'm responsible for paying it back because I made a call that what I bought was worth it.

I actually turned down a larger loan because - despite being OK'd by the bank AND despite part of me wanting it - I knew that it would be a step too far.

So no objection on that front.

Unfortunately - thanks to FF decisions - I'm bailing out failed so-called businessmen (gamblers) and bankers who had less cop-on.

THAT I object to.

THAT is why the people who voted FF (the party that told people like you to f-off and commit suicide, that everything was hunky-dory) are responsible for the mess we are in.

You make your choices and you live by them (at least, in a fair society you do) but FF have ensured that those who made the worst choices are being paid off by those who made decent choices.

Add in the fact that FF (and some others) are claiming that "we" are responsible and that "we" are all to blame, and it makes my blood boil! :mad:

BostonB

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

There wont be real change until people who, whether they voted for FF or not, admit that the property bubble was caused by people buying houses. Developers were just house ( or land) buyers on a large scale.....


....grow up. You were an adult. if you bought a house - which is an investment - you are as much to blame as a developer.

IMO theres flaws in your logic. People bought houses before the bubble. Not all houses are bought as investments, and even if they are, and people can afford them, even if they make a loss, there isn't a problem.

Before the bubble though, the banks, stuck to rules about how much people could borrow. 2.5x one salary, + 1x a second. During the bubble though all those rules went out the window. Before the bubble, builders and developers, paid back existing loans before new ones could be taken out. During the bubble, banks, let them keeping rolling old loans into new loans. Then of course the bank were doing their own speculating too. I'm fuzzy on the details.

All roads lead back to banks and the lack of regulation of them. IMO

KerranJast

Lead up to General Election 2007 - two main issues - shoddy health service & Berties lies

What was the only issue at the ballot box and the one that got FF back in AGAIN? Joe and Mary Soap wanted a tax cut.

Liam Byrne

KerranJast wrote: »

Lead up to General Election 2007 - two main issues - shoddy health service & Berties lies

What was the only issue at the ballot box and the one that got FF back in AGAIN? Joe and Mary Soap wanted a tax cut.

....one that said-same Ahern had told them was fully affordable because the boom was getting boomier.

Slick50

Drumpot wrote: »

Its funny , the concept of delusion and passing the book seems to be always associated with the politician.y. But our electorate have let us down in that we have not even got a credible alternative that gives anybody confidence.(even just an alternative).

It is difficult to have constructive debate with someone who starts with the premiss that everyone else is prejudiced, ignorant and incapable of reasoned debate. It is hardly suprising that you have been accused of being a FF spin doctor, when you are peddling the party bull****e.

Is it reasonable to presume that everybody in the country took out loans beyond their means?


How will we ever have moral politicians, when fine moral people like you won't bother to run for office?

I find it sickening when I am told we are all to blame, and we're all in this together. Sure, we are all in it together, but not because of collective decissions. Why is it so important to convince the electorate that we are all to blame, other than to deflect from ascertaining who are the real culprits. I believe the real culprits to be the heads of banking in this country, with the collusion of our government. I dare say, not with any malice, but equally without judgement.

Our banks relaxed their own criteria for lending, and got involved in a crazy frenzie of fighting for a bigger share of a boiling market. They were blinded by greed, because they were paying themselves huge bonuses based on how much money they could lend out. Our government appointed financial regulator, stood by and did nothing, WHY.?

Developers were doing booming business, you cannot blame them for making hay while the sun was shining. If the banks were keeping proper control on lending, house prices could not have spiralled the way they did. It was the banks that were fuelling the boom in land prices too, financing the astronomical prices that were being payed for land, by lending to the developers. They justified this by the astronomical prices that could be got for each house, financed by the banks.

The government was happy to let things role, they were rolling in more money than they new what to do with, in stamp duty. They were warned back in 2001 by the ECB that they were running the economy on unsustainable tax takes, based on the building boom. Numerous economists warned them of pending doom, but all warnings were ignored. It was even suggested that the doom mongers should commit suicide.

I find it galling for people to turn around when the **** hits the fan, and tell us that it is our collective fault. If the banks had kept reasonable control on lending, people could still have bought houses, just not at the rediculous prices they were forced to. And they were forced, if you delayed getting your foot on the property ladder, by even a few months, you would wind up paying another ten, fifteen, twenty or more thousands extra for the same property. It is wrong to condemn people for wanting to buy their own property, wether it be to live in themselves, or begin a family. It is a perfectly legitimate goal in life, why should you spend your life paying somebody elses mortgage.

Our economy has been ruined by relatively few, and they should be held to account, and punished. But it appears they will be allowed to go their merry way with their ill gotten gains. I find this is the hardest part of our "tough medicine" to swallow.