Seanie Fitz "on €188 a month"

Cyrus · 24-09-2010 07:47AM

Augmerson wrote: »

This kind of **** really gets to me. I was in the canteen in work today reading the papers and this was all across the frontpages. Does the media honestly expect us to believe this ****? What are they playing at, I don't know.

It's been said before. Seanie Fitz will get away with this. They all will. Nobody will be held accountable for a failure that we can't even fathom right now. Our country is crippled and they are standing on our backs laughing. There's no change. No opposition. Sometimes I just want to get a weapon, a gun, ****ing anything, and go out there and find these people that did this and let them have it, because it's the only kind of justice we will ever get.

your attitude is typical of a lot of the country, misdirected rage,

there is no point trying to get 'justice' we need to get the country out of this mess, what you are suggesting will do no good at all

djpbarry · 24-09-2010 07:55AM

Mr.Micro wrote: »

His position of power and unaccountability as the head of Anglo allowed him to do major damage.

Unaccountability? Was he not accountable to the Anglo board? Were they not in turn accountable to the shareholders? As for power, was absolute control of Anglo vested in Fitzpatrick? You don’t think perhaps the CEO (David Drumm), for example, might have had a significant input into the organisation's affairs?

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Nothing of course but be honoured and feted like all our other great men. Maybe even a whip round or a personal bailout?

Care to try again without the sarcasm? Genuine question – what should happen to Seán Fitzpatrick?

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Absolute rubbish, don't get ahead of yourself there, there are plenty of little sh*ts in Ireland does that mean they should all go to jail and you drawing such a conclusion is puerile.

At what point did I say you felt he should go to jail? You stated that you “could not care less about the little s*it”. Such a remark, coupled with the general tone of your posts on this thread, suggest to me that you do indeed care about what happens to Seán Fitzpatrick.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

That is just it long may it continue its what makes Ireland great and an example to others.

My point is that corruption is something that is endemic in Irish society (although, admittedly, there are many countries in the world with far greater problems in that regard) – it’s not like we’re talking about an isolated incident here.

djpbarry · 24-09-2010 07:55AM

Augmerson wrote: »

It's been said before. Seanie Fitz will get away with this.

Get away with what?

ei.sdraob · 24-09-2010 08:13AM

Cyrus wrote: »

your attitude is typical of a lot of the country, misdirected rage,

there is no point trying to get 'justice' we need to get the country out of this mess, what you are suggesting will do no good at all

If there is no investigation into causes and justice served for anyone breaking the law

then all of this will repeat again on a much larger scale

Biggins · 24-09-2010 08:13AM

djpbarry wrote: »

Get away with what?

Gross incompetence and/or negligence.
Possible financial antics which are not in line with banking regulations

To name just two, of which I'm sure there are many more.

bamboozle · 24-09-2010 08:23AM

simple solution to this transferring of assets ever happening again,
amend the finance bill to do the following;

a spouse can make 1 tax free transfer in their lifetime to their wife/husband to the tune of €500,000.
any subsequent transfers to a spouse be subject to 75% capital gains tax.

problem solved, Seanie and his ilk couldnt wiggle their way out of paying their debts.

we'd have to wait till FF left power for anything like this to occur as since '97 Bertie and co have made it a hobby of changin laws and creating loopholes to benefit their benifactors and to screw the state of tax revenues it should rightfully be earning.

Cyrus · 24-09-2010 08:45AM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

If there is no investigation into causes and justice served for anyone breaking the law

then all of this will repeat again on a much larger scale

the point has been made by myself and others, he is being investigated, as of yet he hasnt been proven guilty of breaking any law,

what law do you think he has broken and how did he break it?

Cyrus · 24-09-2010 08:46AM

Biggins wrote: »

Gross incompetence and/or negligence.

people are guilty of this every day in every job, what do you want to happen to them?

Cyrus · 24-09-2010 08:50AM

bamboozle wrote: »

we'd have to wait till FF left power for anything like this to occur as since '97 Bertie and co have made it a hobby of changin laws and creating loopholes to benefit their benifactors and to screw the state of tax revenues it should rightfully be earning.

why in gods name should the state be entitled to a transfer of assets between spouses?

you already have the scandalous situation where a child is charged with CAT on receipt of inheritance from their parents, you want to further tax people for transfer or assets that they have paid for with money that they already paid tax on?

well you will probably get your wish, from the polls labour are looking increasingly likley of being the majority party, as they will shy away from taking the unions on they will tax the 'super rich' (or anyone who earns over the average industrial wage) so much that there will no money left in the economy.

bamboozle · 24-09-2010 09:36AM

Cyrus wrote: »

why in gods name should the state be entitled to a transfer of assets between spouses?

you already have the scandalous situation where a child is charged with CAT on receipt of inheritance from their parents, you want to further tax people for transfer or assets that they have paid for with money that they already paid tax on?

well you will probably get your wish, from the polls labour are looking increasingly likley of being the majority party, as they will shy away from taking the unions on they will tax the 'super rich' (or anyone who earns over the average industrial wage) so much that there will no money left in the economy.

per my suggestion, a charge of CGT but with a once off transfer of €500k being tax free. It is clear that transferring assets between spouses has been a clear way of tax avoidance by Seanie, several NAMA property developers not to mention Ivor. hundreds of millions have been transferred property developers/bankers/politicians to wives over the last 2 years in a clear attempt to avoid paying debts & accurate tax assessment. This should not be tolerated.

Cyrus · 24-09-2010 09:49AM

bamboozle wrote: »

per my suggestion, a charge of CGT but with a once off transfer of €500k being tax free. It is clear that transferring assets between spouses has been a clear way of tax avoidance by Seanie, several NAMA property developers not to mention Ivor. hundreds of millions have been transferred property developers/bankers/politicians to wives over the last 2 years in a clear attempt to avoid paying debts & accurate tax assessment. This should not be tolerated.

im being pedantic but it would be CAT not CGT

why a ceiling of 500k, whats the relevance of that

Augmerson · 24-09-2010 09:54AM

Cyrus wrote: »

people are guilty of this every day in every job, what do you want to happen to them?

Sure but it usually doesn't end up costing the country millions of euro's.

jmayo · 24-09-2010 09:55AM

Cyrus wrote: »

your attitude is typical of a lot of the country, misdirected rage,

there is no point trying to get 'justice' we need to get the country out of this mess, what you are suggesting will do no good at all

And your attitude appears to be to let these guys slide as they did nothing wrong technically or at least according to our very lax corporate governance.

Ken Bates set up a dodgy bank in ireland in the 70s, it folded and no one was punished.
Patrick Gallagher set up dodgy bank in late 70s/early 80s and it folded leaving people out of pocket, nothing happened to him here due to his close ties with one cj haughey.
Yet he was jailed in Northern Ireland.

Joe Moore (another friend of ff) in late 70s/early 80s set up a quasi bank within PMPA which went burst and forced the Irish taxpayer to cough up and indeed all insurance pemiums had levy attached for that little bailout.
That wind up was finally finalised in 2005 22 years after going belly up.

ICI's London office was badly run and AIB forced government to bail it out. No one within AIB was punished and AIB was not sanctioned or forced to give shares to Irish taxpayers.

In the 90s it was found major Irish banks had coluded in tax evasion with non resident accounts.
No one with the banks were punished or huge fines were not levied.

Do you begin to see a trend yet ?

If people and organisations are not severly punished for this it will continue to happen.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

If there is no investigation into causes and justice served for anyone breaking the law

then all of this will repeat again on a much larger scale

Please see above.

djpbarry wrote: »

Get away with what?

In other jurisdictions he would be done for insider trading, misleading the stock markets and his shareholders.

Even in Ireland he would have been in breach of normal company law with reference to concelament of directors loans.
Of course it is argued it is different for a bank. :rolleyes:

Cyrus wrote: »

the point has been made by myself and others, he is being investigated, as of yet he hasnt been proven guilty of breaking any law,

what law do you think he has broken and how did he break it?

Ah shure good ould Ireland everything is investigated but funny enough we never seem to have any prosecutions. :rolleyes:
If bernie maddoff had been based here he would still be playing golf out in the Kclub.

bamboozle · 24-09-2010 10:24AM

jmayo wrote: »

And your attitude appears to be to let these guys slide as they did nothing wrong technically or at least according to our very lax corporate governance.

Ken Bates set up a dodgy bank in ireland in the 70s, it folded and no one was punished.
Patrick Gallagher set up dodgy bank in late 70s/early 80s and it folded leaving people out of pocket, nothing happened to him here due to his close ties with one cj haughey.
Yet he was jailed in Northern Ireland.

Joe Moore (another friend of ff) in late 70s/early 80s set up a quasi bank within PMPA which went burst and forced the Irish taxpayer to cough up and indeed all insurance pemiums had levy attached for that little bailout.
That wind up was finally finalised in 2005 22 years after going belly up.

ICI's London office was badly run and AIB forced government to bail it out. No one within AIB was punished and AIB was not sanctioned or forced to give shares to Irish taxpayers.

In the 90s it was found major Irish banks had coluded in tax evasion with non resident accounts.
No one with the banks were punished or huge fines were not levied.

Do you begin to see a trend yet ?

If people and organisations are not severly punished for this it will continue to happen.

Please see above.

In other jurisdictions he would be done for insider trading, misleading the stock markets and his shareholders.

Even in Ireland he would have been in breach of normal company law with reference to concelament of directors loans.
Of course it is argued it is different for a bank. :rolleyes:

Ah shure good ould Ireland everything is investigated but funny enough we never seem to have any prosecutions. :rolleyes:
If bernie maddoff had been based here he would still be playing golf out in the Kclub.

well it is the country where our former Taoiseach and Minister for Finance is yet to provide a tax clearance certificate since 2002, despite this being a requirement to sit in Dail Eireann.

Liam Byrne · 24-09-2010 10:30AM

Cyrus wrote: »

your attitude is typical of a lot of the country, misdirected rage,

there is no point trying to get 'justice'

Whyever not ?

djpbarry · 24-09-2010 10:30AM

jmayo wrote: »

In other jurisdictions he would be done for insider trading, misleading the stock markets and his shareholders.

I’m guessing these “other jurisdictions” would require that an investigation be carried out in order to establish whether or not wrongdoing has taken place? If not, then I don’t think we should be following their example.

jmayo wrote: »

Even in Ireland he would have been in breach of normal company law with reference to concelament of directors loans.

How about we let the Bureau of Fraud Investigation do their job on that front and we’ll see what comes of it.

jmayo wrote: »

Ah shure good ould Ireland everything is investigated but funny enough we never seem to have any prosecutions. :rolleyes:
If bernie maddoff had been based here he would still be playing golf out in the Kclub.

Questions about Madoff’s business practices were raised back in the late 90’s, yet he was only sentenced to prison last year (and that was only after he confessed to wrongdoing).

Cyrus · 24-09-2010 10:36AM

jmayo wrote: »

And your attitude appears to be to let these guys slide as they did nothing wrong technically or at least according to our very lax corporate governance.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Whyever not ?

you have both missed my point,

again if some has not been prosecuted for doing something illegal, nothing is going to happen to them, either fitzpatrick broke an actual law with a custodial sentence attached or he didnt

if he didnt he wont go to jail, im not sure what other kind of 'justice' people think they are going to get.

also there are far too many people using someone like him as a scapegoat for their own problems, because we all love someone to blame and its easier to sit around a pub drinking blaming someone else for losing your job that doing something about it yourself

Cyrus · 24-09-2010 10:36AM

Augmerson wrote: »

Sure but it usually doesn't end up costing the country millions of euro's.

oh really, heard of the civil service?

Laminations · 24-09-2010 10:47AM

Cyrus wrote: »

if he didnt he wont go to jail, im not sure what other kind of 'justice' people think they are going to get.

The type of justice that says if you owe €100 million which is now on the taxpayers shoulders that you dont continue to live in luxury claiming to be oh so broke. Justice would be Sean Fitzpatrick living in a council flat, buying clothes from Guineys or Pennys and taking public transport.

A man in his position, with his debts, shouldn't be allowed to live off his wife, they are benefits in kind paid for by a wife who was syphoned Fitzpatricks money to protect it from his creditors.

Justice is broke meaning broke

markpb · 24-09-2010 10:52AM

Cyrus wrote: »

again if some has not been prosecuted for doing something illegal, nothing is going to happen to them, either fitzpatrick broke an actual law with a custodial sentence attached or he didnt. if he didnt he wont go to jail, im not sure what other kind of 'justice' people think they are going to get.

That's not entirely true. White collar crime laws are very difficult to prove and very hard use to convict someone with. It takes a lot of time, manpower and money to make that happen and the government have to drive that. They cannot directly impede a criminal investigation but it can underfund the agencies tasked with enforcing them. The ODCE publicly said two years ago that his agency was under-funded and would not be able to enforce the law.

Irish Independent wrote:

In April 2005, the New York Times wrote of the "light hand" of corporate regulation that encouraged such people to gravitate to these shores: "Dublin has become known in the insurance industry as something of the Wild West of European finance".

Over the past five years, Paul Appleby and his small number of staff have sought to clean things up. Like a dose of Domestos to corporate germs? Well, given the size of the ODCE, more like a wipe from a cloth slightly dampened by Dettol. Mr Appleby has just 36 employees, including six gardai.

Mr Appleby applied for 20 more staff, including four gardai. This request seems based in logic, requesting people with particular skills for specific jobs that need doing. In the Dail, Bertie Ahern became waspish. "It is not that Mr Appleby's work is not considered important . . . it is a question of prioritising the placement of staff. He has 36, so it seems extraordinary that he could want another 20." The fact that the staff are needed to get the job done seems irrelevant. "One would not receive such an increase in any department," huffed Bertie. "He will have to wait his turn."

The old belief that someone is innocent until proven guilty is patently untrue if the government deliberately stops agencies like the ODCE from taking a case against them.

hinault · 24-09-2010 10:54AM

Cyrus wrote: »

you have both missed my point,

again if some has not been prosecuted for doing something illegal, nothing is going to happen to them, either fitzpatrick broke an actual law with a custodial sentence attached or he didnt

if he didnt he wont go to jail, im not sure what other kind of 'justice' people think they are going to get.

also there are far too many people using someone like him as a scapegoat for their own problems, because we all love someone to blame and its easier to sit around a pub drinking blaming someone else for losing your job that doing something about it yourself

Anglo Irish bank contravened whole sections of the Companies Act and as former CEO and Chairman, Seanie is responsible for these violations.

Seanie had a fiduciary duty to ensure that Anglo Irish bank complied with all sections of the Companies Act.

The evidence is clearly there : failure to disclose directors loans, creation of share support scheme and the purchase of shares to inflate the share price of a public company, misrepresentation of the company balance sheet at yearend by not disclosing funds transfers from IL&P.
It is up to the authorities (Gardai/DPP) to provide proof of violations and for them to bring charges.

I think the question is, is there a conspiracy not to charge Seanie?
I would be very surprised if he isn't charged at some point because the violations are clear.
What is less transparent is whether there is the political will to see him charged.

I understand peoples anger - in any other jurisdiction Fiztpatrick and the rest of the charlatans would have been arrested and charged at this point.
No question whatsoever.

Biggins · 24-09-2010 11:00AM

Cyrus wrote: »

people are guilty of this every day in every job, what do you want to happen to them?

For a start, be held accountable or is that too much to ask!
All I've read so far is excuses!
What do you want? Do you want just to let him walk? Whats your solution!

bullpost · 24-09-2010 11:21AM

Unfortunately in this case Anglos problems have become everyone's problem.
The scale of it, a 40billion euro sinkhole in the economy, will affect everyone who lives in Ireland for a generation.

Be interested to hear what it is you think I can do about a problem of this magnitude myself?

Cyrus wrote: »

also there are far too many people using someone like him as a scapegoat for their own problems, because we all love someone to blame and its easier to sit around a pub drinking blaming someone else for losing your job that doing something about it yourself

Laminations · 24-09-2010 11:25AM

Cyrus wrote: »

im not sure what other kind of 'justice' people think they are going to get.

They call this justice in some countries

public-lashing-iran-795241.jpg&t=1

Cyrus · 24-09-2010 11:27AM

Biggins wrote: »

For a start, be held accountable or is that too much to ask!
All I've read so far is excuses!
What do you want? Do you want just to let him walk? Whats your solution!

i want people to show some sort of common sense, if he has done something illegal and is prosecuted he will goto jail, if he hasnt he wont,

people are looking for someone to blame and they want to see sean fitzpatrick in jail without knowing why he should goto jail

Cyrus · 24-09-2010 11:29AM

bullpost wrote: »

Unfortunately in this case Anglos problems have become everyone's problem.
The scale of it, a 40billion euro sinkhole in the economy, will affect everyone who lives in Ireland for a generation.

Be interested to hear what it is you think I can do about a problem of this magnitude myself?

nothing, we should all give up and hopefully everything will sort itself out,

or people can work hard, rebuild the economy and improve the situation

Laminations wrote: »

They call this justice in some countries

is that what we want here? in those same countries they have honour killings for women too

Biggins · 24-09-2010 11:31AM

Cyrus wrote: »

i want people to show some sort of common sense, if he has done something illegal and is prosecuted he will goto jail, if he hasnt he wont,

people are looking for someone to blame and they want to see sean fitzpatrick in jail without knowing why he should go to jail

You still haven't answered my questions, just offered more lecturing and platitudes.
The questions stand.

Laminations · 24-09-2010 11:32AM

Cyrus wrote: »

i want people to show some sort of common sense, if he has done something illegal and is prosecuted he will goto jail, if he hasnt he wont,

people are looking for someone to blame and they want to see sean fitzpatrick in jail without knowing why he should goto jail

Most people make the distinction between doing something illegal and the wider category of doing something wrong. Now while you may argue that for the illegal part we need to wait for the gardai and DPP and courts to make and try a case but are you trying to argue that Fitzpatrick has done nothing wrong?

Laminations · 24-09-2010 11:34AM

@ Cyrus

Fitzpatrick owes millions. This is personal debt that is now on the taxpayer. Do you think it is just or fair that he lives in a mansion and is by no means poor while he owes all this money and while his creditors turn to the taxpayer?

Cyrus · 24-09-2010 11:37AM

Biggins wrote: »

You still haven't answered my questions, just offered more lecturing and platitudes.
The questions stand.

i have said what i want, for the investigations to take their course,

im sick of overhearing people with no clue (im not referring to posters in this thread by the way) about what has happened looking for someone to be sent to jail, if you ask them why they can offer no answer,

people want to blame someone for ruining the country, it seems fitzpatrick fits the bill for most, however it isnt really his fault, altho the anglo situation has made things a lot worse,

there is a lot to be admired about what he did and what he achieved, at the same time the practices of the board of his bank over the past 5 years were shameful.

Laminations wrote: »

Most people make the distinction between doing something illegal and the wider category of doing something wrong. Now while you may argue that for the illegal part we need to wait for the gardai and DPP and courts to make and try a case but are you trying to argue that Fitzpatrick has done nothing wrong?

where did i argue that, or are you making things up

Seanie Fitz "on €188 a month"

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