Would you like to see EU Military Bases in Ireland?

Corsendonk · 21-09-2010 02:04AM #1

So would you like to see EU forces based in Ireland to help defend the EU border. So a military airbase in Shannon, German and Swedish Leopards training in the Curragh etc?

As part of Lisbon Treaty member states have agreed to come to the aid of a member state under attack but future planning may envisage deployment of mixed member state forces to the border areas and Irish defence spending is inadequate to defend our skies and seas of a major section of the EU border alone. I know the tricky topic of British forces will be raised.

OS119 · 21-09-2010 08:20AM

Corsendonk wrote: »

So would you like to see EU forces based in Ireland to help defend the EU border. So a military airbase in Shannon, German and Swedish Leopards training in the Curragh etc?

As part of Lisbon Treaty member states have agreed to come to the aid of a member state under attack but future planning may envisage deployment of mixed member state forces to the border areas and Irish defence spending is inadequate to defend our skies and seas of a major section of the EU border alone. I know the tricky topic of British forces will be raised.

the simple answer you'll get from the Germans and Swedish is that Irish defence spening should be raised to be comsenurate with the threat (however you choose to define it), the idea that Irish defence spending doesn't cover Irish security needs isn't a 'set in stone' objective reality like the depth of the Atlantic or the distance between Dublin and Cork, its just a political issue that the public and the politicians they elect conive in.

you post also raises the issue of 'an attack on one is an attack on all' - does that mean that, should the situation required it, an Irish mech Inf battlegroup should be stationed on the Polish/Belorussian border - or is this just one-way traffic?

Corsendonk · 21-09-2010 12:10PM

OS119 wrote: »

you post also raises the issue of 'an attack on one is an attack on all' - does that mean that, should the situation required it, an Irish mech Inf battlegroup should be stationed on the Polish/Belorussian border - or is this just one-way traffic?

Of course european military units should be moved around to encourage cooperation among them for one, and it may be just as simple as bulking up navel and air operations here with fellow EU member states forces. Constant cripe here is that the Irish military expenditure is so low, its never going to be sufficient for navel and air operations unless anyone is planning a coup soon to divert a substantial amount of GDP into arms deals.

mgmt · 21-09-2010 01:23PM

Hell No.

OS119 · 21-09-2010 04:25PM

Corsendonk wrote: »

Of course european military units should be moved around to encourage cooperation among them for one, and it may be just as simple as bulking up navel and air operations here with fellow EU member states forces. Constant cripe here is that the Irish military expenditure is so low, its never going to be sufficient for navel and air operations unless anyone is planning a coup soon to divert a substantial amount of GDP into arms deals.

sorry, i don't get you - European militaries do co-operate to improve interoperability, they try doctrines/training/equipment out against a military that might do things differently, they 'work-up' units together so they could work together in an operational setting, and they slot forces together to create a 'whole' thats bigger than the sum of the constituant parts. they primarily do it through NATO, though its also done bi/multi-laterally - there isn't a need for the EU to get involved as well.

why should other states go the hassle and expence of putting naval and air assets in Ireland, primarily for the benefit of Ireland, just because Ireland doesn't want to pay for its own assets? you seem to be suggesting that its a reality that other EU states just have to get used to within a context of EU mutual defence - the problem is that there isn't an EU mutual defence, there's an obligation to provide support, and the nature of that support is to be determined by each state. it could be an Armoured Division, but it could also just be 50 litres of diesel and some warm words - and both cover the definition of 'support' as stated in the treaty.

The Highwayman · 21-09-2010 08:27PM

No

vulcan57 · 21-09-2010 09:33PM

Yes please:D

Fratton Fred · 21-09-2010 09:39PM

vulcan57 wrote: »

Yes please:D

maybe they could rotate airforces, so you can work on your photo album:D

OS119 · 22-09-2010 08:15AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

maybe they could rotate airforces, so you can work on your photo album:D

thats how NATO operates in the Baltic states and Iceland. good blueprint...

ETA: the easiest, and probably most immediately profitable for both sides, exercise would be an Air Defence Exercise - designate location 'X' as target, array the RBS70's and other systems around it (air-mobility exercise thrown in?) and ask the RAF to whack it. Ireland gets to do a 'real world' test of its systems - as well as a 'no notice, go now - i don't give a shit if its 5pm' exercise, the RAF gets to play with an air defence system its not tried before and do some low-level flying in a new environment, and nobody needs move any equipment or personnel outside their borders.

win win.

Steyr · 22-09-2010 05:21PM

tac foley wrote: »

A more full explanation of that comment would be appreciated, especially for those on this forum who actually live in the north or on the mainland of UK.

tac

I believe he is referrering to Northern Ireland and its History and the English Forces History in Ireland.

Pretty obvious really IMO.

OS119 · 22-09-2010 06:40PM

the man has a point...

Steyr · 22-09-2010 06:44PM

OS119 wrote: »

the man has a point...

He does indeed, but it was totally obvious that some elements of Irish "Society" would find them unwelcome.

tac foley · 22-09-2010 06:53PM

As this thread has a [slight] chance of being turned into something felt as distasteful in some quarters I have deleted my posts from it and will take no further part in it.

tac

Steyr · 22-09-2010 07:02PM

tac foley wrote: »

As this thread has a [slight] chance of being turned into something felt as distasteful in some quarters I have deleted my posts from it and will take no further part in it.

tac

No need to really this has been dragged thru the "mud" enough, I for one would welcome EU Bases in Ireland no matter who they are. Its possibly the way its heading anyway a United States Of Europe, we already have an EU Battle Group so why the hell not.

The Highwayman · 22-09-2010 07:05PM

Steyr wrote: »

possibly the way its heading anyway a United States Of Europe

And your ok with that?

OS119 · 22-09-2010 07:09PM

tac foley wrote: »

As this thread has a [slight] chance of being turned into something felt as distasteful in some quarters I have deleted my posts from it and will take no further part in it.

tac

and now i look like i'm agreeing with the bloke who raised the issue, not the bloke who indicated that it was ridiculous!

personally, in a vain attempt to get the thread back on track, i'd love to see Ireland invite other EU states to exercise in Ireland - and for Irish units to exercise abroad - it would be good for the DF to host a French expeditionary air wing (and to do all that AirLand training that the DF miss out on), it would be excellent training for a Joint UK/Irish naval task force to conduct anti-piracy exercises off the west coast, and it would be a massive boost for an Irish infantry coy and an AD battery to deploy by C-130 and C-17 to Benbecula for an AirLand exercise...

even without any kind of mutual defence treaty, the mere fact of Ireland involving itself in such exercises would send a stiff message, and it would have a significant, and positive, training impact on the whole of the DF.

Steyr · 22-09-2010 07:10PM

The Highwayman wrote: »

And your ok with that?

Why not? The Majority of us ( European Nations ) already have a Single Currency its seems to be going in that direction.

The Highwayman · 22-09-2010 07:57PM

Steyr wrote: »

Why not? The Majority of us ( European Nations ) already have a Single Currency its seems to be going in that direction.

Wow, I really dont know how to respond to that. I guess your just another one of the sheeple. Voted yes to Lisbon did you?

OS119 · 22-09-2010 08:11PM

The Highwayman wrote: »

Wow, I really dont know how to respond to that. I guess your just another one of the sheeple.

pretty dismissive, no?

nice attitude, i'm sure lots of people will see that and think 'hmm... there's a guy who really knows his stuff and brings a lot to the table'.

not.

The Highwayman · 22-09-2010 08:52PM

OS119 wrote: »

pretty dismissive, no?

nice attitude, i'm sure lots of people will see that and think 'hmm... there's a guy who really knows his stuff and brings a lot to the table'.

not.

'Not'? The 1990's called they want their comeback returned :rolleyes:

Dismissive maybe, shocked yes.

If someone does not see the problems in sleepwalking head first into a euro-super state then I dont see how I can help them. Are you of the same opinion there is nothing to worry about it?

The constant erosion of our civil rights and liberties as well as the disappearance of our nationhood is something very close to my heart and something I keep up to date with.

Here are 2 videos you should look at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLGu-dTH6i4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWSYMpuCFaQ&feature=related

OS119 · 22-09-2010 10:01PM

are you going to contribute coherently to this thread, or are you just going to post rants and links?

Steyr · 22-09-2010 11:03PM

The Highwayman wrote: »

Wow, I really dont know how to respond to that. I guess your just another one of the sheeple. Voted yes to Lisbon did you?

How so? Whats wrong with wanting a United Europe all contributing for eachother?

BrianD · 23-09-2010 08:23PM

Firstly, Ireland's so called neutrality has always been a sham motivated solely by not entering into a military alliance involving the UK while they are present in the six counties of northern Ireland. We didn't stand up to fight fascist tyranny in the second world war and we smugly relied on the might of NATO to provide our defences during the cold war.

If we are a part of Europe and benefit from the EU then we should be willing to defend it or contribute to it's defence. At the same time, I don't know whether providing military bases here is required apart from agreed access in times of need. While this may seem to contradict the above, there should not be pressure on us to spend the percentages of GDP that other nations within the EI spend on the military. SOme of these nations are motivated by greater plans then the defence of the EU.

Gray · 24-09-2010 12:42AM

Just who would we need to defend the EU border against?

Due to our geographic location there are very few country's capable of launching an invasion here & I can't think why they would.

concussion · 24-09-2010 09:30AM

This little rock would be a pretty sweet place to postion air assets and build up troop numbers for a push into Europe. Good sea-ports, several large airports, numerous airfields, nothing but ocean to the north and west and feck all the locals can do about stopping you.

tac foley · 24-09-2010 10:08AM

concussion wrote: »

This little rock would be a pretty sweet place to postion air assets and build up troop numbers for a push into Europe. Good sea-ports, several large airports, numerous airfields, nothing but ocean to the north and west and feck all the locals can do about stopping you.

And THAT is just about the best summation of the rationale behind the need to invade and occupy Ireland that I've seen in years. Every point is valid.

tac

BrianD · 24-09-2010 02:00PM

concussion wrote: »

This little rock would be a pretty sweet place to postion air assets and build up troop numbers for a push into Europe. Good sea-ports, several large airports, numerous airfields, nothing but ocean to the north and west and feck all the locals can do about stopping you.

I think at this stage, Ireland is strategically useless to anyone but its allies.

If you have Ireland as part of your alliance then we area very useful. If you don't then the effort required to secure Ireland militarily would outweigh any benefits. There is practically nobody who could invade us with ease - apart from our near neighbours.

Plus in the past 100 years nobody has attempted in any meaningful way and one could argue that we expelled the one world power that did occupy us.

Gray · 25-09-2010 02:08PM

BrianD wrote: »

I think at this stage, Ireland is strategically useless to anyone but its allies.

If you have Ireland as part of your alliance then we area very useful. If you don't then the effort required to secure Ireland militarily would outweigh any benefits. There is practically nobody who could invade us with ease - apart from our near neighbours.

Exactly the point I was trying to make

Most of the country's who have the ability to invade are NATO/EU members & are the one's we would be having joint bases/exercises with anyway.

The only other potential candidate would be Russia in a return to a Cold War situation. I'm pretty sure that NATO have plans covering that unlikely scenario & we would get help whether we asked for it or not.

In the long run further EU integration could well lead to an EU army rather than national ones but not any time soon.

eia340600 · 25-09-2010 03:19PM

BrianD wrote: »

Firstly, Ireland's so called neutrality has always been a sham motivated solely by not entering into a military alliance involving the UK while they are present in the six counties of northern Ireland. We didn't stand up to fight fascist tyranny in the second world war and we smugly relied on the might of NATO to provide our defences during the cold war.

This is exactly the point.They defended us against nothing.Any increased expenditure in the military would be money wasted to defend ourselves against a non-existent threat.

BrianD wrote: »

SOme of these nations are motivated by greater plans then the defence of the EU.

That, to me, is a perfectly good reason not to be involved in any "EU Army" operations.

DylanJM · 25-09-2010 08:51PM

This is exactly the point.They defended us against nothing.Any increased expenditure in the military would be money wasted to defend ourselves against a non-existent threat.

I wouldn't say the threat is non existent. The odds of another large scale conflict breaking out during this centuary are pretty high I reckon. I mean if that's your attitude we might as well disband our entire defence force, "'cos the threat's non existent"

eia340600 · 25-09-2010 09:27PM

DylanJM wrote: »

I wouldn't say the threat is non existent. The odds of another large scale conflict breaking out during this centuary are pretty high I reckon. I mean if that's your attitude we might as well disband our entire defence force, "'cos the threat's non existent"

A conflict that we would be involved with?I think not.

I wouldn't call for the disbandment of our Armed Forces completely.They have a role in UN peace keeping missions and assist with issues on a national level such as emergencys, like floods, and helping the Gardaí to maintain order.

Would you like to see EU Military Bases in Ireland?

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