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Distinguishing biblical metaphor from reality

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Comments

  • #152
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So why if the Genesis story was to teach some truth, does it have demonstrably false information?

    Why, if it was divinely inspired, would it not contain some semblance to reality?
    God must have know how the universe formed, and there's no reason for the people he was beaming the words to not to understand a simplistic or dumbed down version.

    It's almost as if the story was entirely made up as pre-scientific explanation for the universe.....


  • #153
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    King Mob wrote: »
    So why if the Genesis story was to teach some truth, does it have demonstrably false information?

    Why, if it was divinely inspired, would it not contain some semblance to reality?
    God must have know how the universe formed, and there's no reason for the people he was beaming the words to not to understand a simplistic or dumbed down version.

    It's almost as if the story was entirely made up as pre-scientific explanation for the universe.....

    Thank you, I think this is the important question regarding genesis, and
    pretty much every parable that uses significant detail to illustrate it's
    points. Everyone understands the concept of storytelling but when you
    make up details that are so basically wrong you'd be likely to call the
    storyteller a bull∫hitter. Arguing that they are conveying a point is fine,
    no matter how immoral it is, but when most of the details are a joke why
    does that give the whole story itself any validity? I mean it, it really &
    truly seems to me that the only reason is the authority of scholars telling
    us that they are speaking in allegories about something deeper.

    I'm afraid the answer to this question is going to be bat∫hit crazy but
    I'll ask anyway...


  • #154
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Ezekiel 16 is monstrous, absolute filth :mad:
    Talk about maniacal maliciousness... :mad:
    There is nothing moral whatsoever in that story, I can see how people
    would think they are justified in killing prostitutes reading that, and it's
    very similar to the Islamic mandates for stoning adulteresses. Is that
    the morality you speak of?

    This is just another example of the terror of religion, receiving authoritarian
    mandate to terrorize prostitutes. I mean Yahwew is punishing her in this
    story! If a man feels neglected by his wife who is cheating on him he has
    every right to make her suffer, he takes on Yahwew's role as he learned
    was apt as a child. Sick stuff in that book, sick stuff...

    Still, a parable, or masha, about god picking on a prostitute says nothing
    about the first chapter of genesis. I've alread explained to you, and still
    see no contradiction after reading your post, that the only similarity
    between what the bible says and what science says is that the earth &
    the sun were created, beyond that the details differ dramatically.

    Why are you still explaining the concept of a parable to me when I
    understand. I understand this is a f'ing parable - obviously!!!!

    If I say that the colour blue is made of some colour-aether in a poem
    that's fine, especially if I'm talking about the various aether's I see in
    life & that's the theme of my poem. You have to understand this
    basic fact, what I'm saying is not science. My poem is not okay with
    science because we've figured out the quantum properties of the
    electromagnetic spectrum & know how light occurs.

    The thing is, it doesn't matter to me if my poem is in accord with
    science because that's not the goal of my poem - just as the religious
    parable is not supposed to be in accord with science. I get that, for the
    3rd or 4th time I get that. However, and I'll repeat, all I've said to you is
    to hold off on telling us your parables are in accord with science because
    they clearly are not. The story was written before we knew this stuff
    about the solar system, you agree? Biblical literalists use this parable of
    yours to explain the origin of life & it's clearly wrong. They are making a
    claim about reality that doesn't stand up to the evidence.

    Do you see why I'm calling you out on this trivial, uninteresting point?
    Just don't tell us it's alright with science, it isn't, just as my poem about
    aether isn't nor is my raping of Yeat's Innisfree. That's all I'm trying to
    say you don't need to throw manaical biblical verses at me while repeating
    what a child knows about allegory & storytelling, okay?

    This is ridiculously off topic but I have to say it. Stop pressing return to go down to the next line, the browser does it automatically. What's more, the browser does it automatically based on the resolution of each person's desktop, so while your paragraphs might look normal on your weirdly small desktop, they look odd for everyone else.

    Thank you.


  • #155
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Malty_T wrote: »
    He managed to read Ayn Rand's book so I'd imagine he'll have no trouble here.:D

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-L6rEm0rnY


    link


  • #156
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Zillah wrote: »
    This is ridiculously off topic but I have to say it. Stop pressing return to go down to the next line, the browser does it automatically. What's more, the browser does it automatically based on the resolution of each person's desktop, so while your paragraphs might look normal on your weirdly small desktop, they look odd for everyone else.

    Thank you.

    I'm happy with the way my writing appears, I don't mean to be annoying but
    I'd prefer to write this way.


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  • #157
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    I'm happy with the way my writing appears, I don't mean to be annoying but
    I'd prefer to write this way.

    Your formating style doesn't bother me at all SW, but I have often wondered. Why? Is there any specific reason? Is it just how they come out on your machine or is it a purposeful thing?


  • #158
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    I'm happy with the way my writing appears, I don't mean to be annoying but
    I'd prefer to write this way.

    Well I guess if everyone starts writing this way, it will become unnoticeable
    eventually. I mean, I need to write this one extra sentence just to have enough
    content to make the paragraph appear similar to sponsoredwalk's unique writing
    style. :)


  • #159
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Well I guess if everyone starts writing this way, it will become unnoticeable
    eventually. I mean, I need to write this one extra sentence just to have enough
    content to make the paragraph appear similar to sponsoredwalk's unique writing
    style. :)

    Haha! I'm such a trendsetter :p I just prefer it, thats all.


  • #160
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Haha! I'm such a trendsetter :p I just prefer it, thats all.

    Ahh Goddamit!! You quoted me before I could put in the comma.:mad:


  • #161
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    Why is it that nobody can articulate the nonsense of Genesis being metaphorical?
    It's easy. Here goes; why would an all powerful god, all knowing God risk, for even one minute, the possibility of future peoples misrepresenting or misunderstanding his essentially sacred and incredibly all important words?

    "How shall I word this this? Literally or metaphorically? Which is more watertight...I know half and half! A good old parable it is then...now no one will know what the hell it is I was really saying and they'll fight over the meaning...oh I am cruel creator it must be said...get the popcorn this is going to be good!":)

    Response:
    No Steve, the Masha was a popular form of story expression at the time therefore the creator decided to communicate his message through that medium so it actually makes perfect sense. The fact that you don't understand this is really due to your inadequacy in ancient Hebrew.
    Also I might add, that it is only through the deciphering of the parable that the true lesson of Gods words are understood and therefore more readily assimilated into human understanding. This may be confusing at first but if you have faith and go with it, it really makes sense.

    Call:
    But why not just a simple non contentious documentation of his will; why the need to embrace primitive story forms when these words were going to be all he had for the rest of eternity? I mean surely you can see that the potential for misunderstanding and misinterpretation is immense?

    Response:
    Look, God works in mysterious ways right. He Can do what he wants. Certainly some poorly educated sod like you is not going to hit upon some flaw that the Almighty might possess. Also I already answered this; it is only by looking past the words and extracting the meaning do we really learn the lesson that the Almighty was setting out.

    Call:
    But who is responsible for the ultimate definitions then, I mean who do I listen to. The new theologians or old? The literealists or the metaphor hunters? I'm so confused; there are so many potential messages?

    Repeat until either a hardened atheist or brain numbed believer.


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  • #162
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Whoever interprets the story in a way that it speaks to your background
    & cultural upbringing, they are the ones you should listen to, (provided
    they have a degree in Attic, Doric & Homeric Greek) :D


  • #163
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    Why is it that nobody can articulate the nonsense of Genesis being metaphorical?
    It's easy. Here goes; why would an all powerful god, all knowing God risk, for even one minute, the possibility of future peoples misrepresenting or misunderstanding his essentially sacred and incredibly all important words?.

    Because human culture does not exist in a vacuum. Every culture throughout history has its own ways of communicating truths. We should not be so arrogant as to expect all communication to be geared to 21st Century western prejudices.

    Christianity is essentially a historical faith. It is rooted in historical events and human experiences of God. This is one reason for its tremendous popularity. It is rooted in other peoples' experiences in the real world, and therefore it speaks to billions of people today in their experiences in the real world.
    But why not just a simple non contentious documentation of his will; why the need to embrace primitive story forms when these words were going to be all he had for the rest of eternity? I mean surely you can see that the potential for misunderstanding and misinterpretation is immense
    You fundamentally misunderstand the point of the Bible. It is not a legal document written to purely impart information.

    Christianity is about a relationship with God. And, as with all relationships, we use songs, poetry and stories to build our relationships. This is why most non-western cultures use stories and art to communicate truth rather than plain prose. I appreciate that concept may be difficult to understand to those wedded to ideas of western superiority and cultural imperialism. It probably also causes problems for those who have difficulty in sustaining lasting relationships in life.
    But who is responsible for the ultimate definitions then, I mean who do I listen to. The new theologians or old? The literealists or the metaphor hunters? I'm so confused; there are so many potential messages?
    Like most things in life, if the truth is important to you then you seek for it. Sorry if thats upsetting for those who prefer a cut and dried ideology.


  • #164
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    PDN wrote: »
    I appreciate that concept may be difficult to understand to those wedded to ideas of western superiority and cultural imperialism. It probably also causes problems for those who have difficulty in sustaining lasting relationships in life.

    But what about those of us who know about the world, who've read up on
    anthropology & know of Edward Said's thesis on Orientalism etc...
    (If you don't know, Said spoke of exactly what you've written).
    Resorting to such a statement as the one you had to in the above
    quote is just a cop out, it still doesn't answer anything we've said.
    All you've done is what stevejazzx predicted, refer to some obscure
    authoritarian reason for why we can't understand, be it a lack of
    understanding ancient Greek or an assumption that we are big Western
    imperialist gluttons with failing marriages that are caused by the decline
    in morality in society. It's a big joke & I'm not going to allow you to
    fall back on this, nothing you've said has given any validity to the fact
    that these parables are full of incorrect statements & logical fallacies.
    The book needn't be a legal document, however the claim is that this
    book is the word of god so you'd think it would get some basic stuff
    right, just something. However as we can quickly repeat, it falls
    through... Why should anyone believe the overarching things the book
    claims when it can't even get the basic "materialistic" statements in the
    book to be half correct??? :confused:


  • #165
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Why should anyone believe the overarching things the book
    claims when it can't even get the basic "materialistic" statements in the
    book to be half correct??? :confused:

    Because, as has been pointed to you ad nauseam, the details in a parable are not materialistic statements.

    The fact that you choose to ignore that and keep banging on with this nonsense is specious and evidence of a closed mind. Why should I waste my time indulging you?


  • #166
    FionnMatthew
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭FionnMatthew


    J C wrote: »
    FionnMatthew wrote:
    What would it take to convince you it was wrong? The smoking gun?
    ... as far as I see all of the evidence and logic stacks up in favour of the Genesis account!!!
    You didn't answer the question. Answer the question.


  • #167
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    PDN wrote: »
    Because, as has been pointed to you ad nauseam, the details in a parable are not materialistic statements.

    The fact that you choose to ignore that and keep banging on with this nonsense is specious and evidence of a closed mind. Why should I waste my time indulging you?

    Why aren't the details in the parable supposed to be materialistic
    statements? This is a parable about the creation of life, why would they
    give us incorrect statements in the parable? Why wouldn't they give us
    the correct details instead of a made up parable? As I've said this isn't a
    trivial document like a legal statement, this is the bible ffs...


  • #168
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    One claim of religion is the emptiness of a materialistic outlook of the world.
    It would seem religion actually knows very little of what a materialistic
    outlook is like seeing as it's main book can't even provide the correct details
    on how material came into being in the main book...


  • #169
    FionnMatthew
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭FionnMatthew


    As an out and out atheist, I'm beginning to get a little weary of how completely everyone here arguing with PDN is missing the point of cosmogonical literature, and yes, that means you too, J C.

    Read Hesiod, towards which your judgment is less likely to be clouded by worries of how to best argue against Christians. Or read Tolkien's Music of the Ainur.

    It really helps if you understand what a mythos does. The metaphorical mode aims at conveying something so vast it cannot be related literally, at harnessing the awe and imaginative powers of the listeners, to provide a cosmogony worthy of the universe as it is experienced, to provide a story awe-inspiring enough to be taken seriously.

    In a certain sense, the language in which stories are told of our own cosmological 'beginnings,' the big bang, which presupposes temporal sequence, assumes a viewpoint which requires spatial location, can only ever metaphorically approach the unthinkable abstractions and scale of the actual event. They are often told to inspire the same amount of awe, because the words fall short, and doubtless their authors rightly decide that only harnessing that awe can convey the awesome truth of that event. But it's still approaching metaphor. Only really astrophysicists understand it in anything else.

    Can we please get off Genesis? I was talking about the sense in which gay christians will claim that the Leviticus remarks on homosexuality are "metaphorical." (I've heard that at least twice.)


  • #170
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Of course I understand myth. The point I'm making is that this isn't simply
    myth this is supposed to be the Bible, the word of God, and this book is
    the source of most of Christendom yet it can't get basic facts about
    the material world it disdains so much correct. Why should anyone
    believe the claims in this book over the others? Genesis is the very beginning
    of the book describing the beginnings of life but it's just so wrong in so
    many ways that it's too bad to ignore, I mean even if you're one
    of those old earthers who'll argue each day was LLLLLOOOOONNNNNGGGG
    you still have to explain why the earth was around with plants for a whole
    LLLOOOONNNNNNGGGGGGG-ass day without a sun to keep 'em going...
    The only validity is that we've grown up being told this book is the one.

    Why, if this is such an all-powerful god as JC continually tells us,
    would He mess up the details in his allegory. I mean if I string a
    bunch of words together about quantum physics & tell you it's an allegory
    to the plot in the film Desperado you'd get away as quickly as possible...
    Here we have a bunch of incorrect statements that aim to give us the
    feeling that god created life yet he can't even get the chronology to fit
    the true way it happened, let alone account for photosynthesis.

    If every story is just an allegory or a representation of some meaning they
    are trying to impart why should we believe it if the stories they are
    stringing together are so hateful, so mean, so incorrect with respect to
    reality & the source of so much hate?

    If they are messing up all of these trivial facts why didn't they mess up
    the resurrection, or the virgin birth too? I mean these statements are
    claimed to be true yet they contradict science so deeply it's shocking,
    how can we continue to lie to ourselves as a species with things like this
    when there is so much here for us to worship?

    I'll take the raindrops falling off leaves :cool:


  • #171
    FionnMatthew
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭FionnMatthew


    To clarify, I don't look on Genesis as much different to Hesiod's Theogony, but that isn't really a diminutive view, because I think both are indispensable insights into the literary imagination of ancient civilizations, and valiant attempts at understanding a mind-boggling universe that at the time completely transcended the scope of human imagination. The same eloquence and poetry runs through them as runs through the ordinary language of popularizers of modern cosmology.

    The difference is that modern cosmologists are better placed to do it more accurately.

    But the argument might go that if God wanted to speak to his creation, he probably wouldn't be able to do it in a way that they understood except through metaphor. Because every story is nonidentical with the events it describes, sacrifices something to the need to communicate, and if communication is the aim, you'd be a crappy popularizer of your own authorship of the world if you tried to tell your children about it in the total language that conveys every vast concept in its full vastness, and loses nothing, and can not be thought by finite beings. etc.

    I don't believe any of this, but it's part of the literary imagination that you have to credit the ancients with some verve in the way they did it.

    I offer Borges as a meagre way of making the point:
    JUAN, 1, 14
    No sera menos un enigma esta hoja
    que las de Mis libros sagrados
    ni aquellas otras que repiten
    las bocas ignorantes,
    creyéndolas de un hombre, no espejos
    oscuros del Espíritu.
    Yo que soy el Es, el Fue y el Será
    vuelvo a condescender al lenguaje,
    que es tiempo sucesivo y emblema.

    Quien juega con un niño juega con algo
    cercano y misterioso;
    yo quise jugar con Mis hijos.
    Estuve entre ellos con asombro y ternura.
    Por obra de una magia
    nací curiosamente de un vientre.
    Viví hechizado, encarcelado en un cuerpo
    y en la humildad de un alma.
    Conocí la memoria,
    esa moneda que no es nunca la misma.
    Conocí esperanza y el temor,
    esos dos rostros del incierto futuro.
    Conocí la vigilia, el sueño, los sueños,
    la ignorancia, la carne,
    los torpes laberintos de la razón,
    la amistad de los hombres,
    la misteriosa decoción de los perros.
    Fui amado, compredido, alabado y pendí de una cruz.
    Bebí la copa hasta las heces.
    Vi por Mis ojos lo que nunca había visto:
    la noche y sus estrellas.
    Conocí lo pullido, lo arenoso, lo desparejo, lo áspero,
    el sabor de la miel y de la manzana,
    el agua en la garganta de la sed,
    el peso de un metal en la palma,
    la voz humana, el rumor de unos pasos sobre la hierba,
    el olor de la lluvia en Galilea,
    el alto grito de los pájaros.
    Concocí también la amargura.
    He encomendado esta escritura a un hombre cualquiera;
    no sera nunca lo que quiero decir,
    no dejará de ser su reflejo.
    Desde Mi eternidad caen estos signos.
    Que otro, no el que es ahora su amanuense, escriba el poema.
    Mañana sere un tigre entre los tigres
    y predicaré Mi ley a su selva,
    o un gran árbol en Asia.
    A veces pienso con nostalgia
    en el olor de esa carpintería.





    trans:


    JOHN 1:14
    This page will be no less a riddle
    than those of My holy books
    or those others repeated
    by ignorant mouths
    believing them the handiwork of a man,
    not the Spirit’s dark mirrors.
    I who am the Was, the Is, and the Is To Come
    again condescend to the written word,
    which is time in succession and no more than an emblem.

    Who plays with a child plays with something
    near and mysterious;
    wanting once to play with My children,
    I stood among them with awe and tenderness.
    I was born of a womb
    by an act of magic.
    I lived under a spell, imprisoned in a body,
    in the humbleness of a soul.
    I knew memory,
    that coin that’s never twice the same.
    I knew hope and fear,
    those twin faces of the uncertain future.
    I knew wakefulness, sleep, dreams,
    ignorance, the flesh,
    reason’s roundabout labyrinths,
    the friendship of men,
    the blind devotion of dogs.
    I was loved, understood, praised, and hung from a cross.
    I drank My cup to the dregs.
    my eyes saw what they had never seen-
    night and its many stars.
    I knew things smooth and gritty, uneven and rough,
    the taste of honey and apple,
    water in the throat of thirst,
    the weight of metal in the hand,
    the human voice, the sound of footsteps on the grass,
    the smell of rain in Galilee,
    the cry of birds on high.
    I knew bitterness as well.
    I have entrusted the writing of these words to a common man;
    they will never be what I want to say
    but only their shadow.
    These signs are dropped from My eternity.
    let someone else write the poem, not he who is now its scribe.
    Tomorrow I shall be a great tree in Asia,
    or a tiger among tigers
    preaching My law to the tiger’s woods.
    Sometimes homesick, I think back
    on the smell of that carpenter’s shop.


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  • #172
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Go back and read Ezekiel chapter 16 & tell me that's beautiful :p
    I agree with what you said, that it was an attempt to understand the
    universe, but that gives it no credence today. It gives none of the claims
    in the book any credence. If god wanted his message heard why didn't
    he give it to all people of all languages? How many people have died
    throughout history because those Western Imperialists didn't conquer their
    remote area of the world in time to spread the good word (along with
    disease, death & destruction)     ? He chose to focus on a fairly poor & illiterate part
    of the world, (Hitchens conveys it better :p) rather than give his allegories to the
    people that could spread them. Just another dead end in this quest
    to understand the absolute madness behind this question.

    Why you'd choose to believe allegories & parables whose details are a
    complete farce when the answers are under your nose is beyond me...
    Another thing that shocks me is how anyone can revere a book that
    contains a chapter such as Ezekiel 16, let alone claim this is the word
    of an almighty god. Just another dead end in this quest to understand the
    absolute madness behind this question.


  • #173
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    vibe666 wrote: »
    okay, so all sin is a grevious offence in gods eyes? hmmm, i wonder where we got all this sin from? oh yeah, according to your book that would be the sin that was forced upon all mankind for eternity BY GOD in the first place.

    where's the free will in that exactly? :confused:
    ... sin wasn't force upon Mankind by God ... it was freely chosen by one Man and one Woman on the 'advice' of Satan ... that God didn't mean what He said.
    vibe666 wrote: »
    how about the free will to not have sin forced on us in the first place? we (apparently) don't have any choice but to be sinners because that's how he made us and now we have to beg his forgiveness for the sin he gave us or he sends us off to burn in hell? :confused:

    this free will stuff is freaking awesome, i love it. :rolleyes:
    Like I have said ... God didn't Create us sinful ... we did that ourselves!!!
    ... and now He has to save us from ourselves ... while maintaining His perfect love, mercy and justice ... truly we have one awesome God here!!!!

    ... if you think that free will is awesome ... you should meet God !!!
    vibe666 wrote: »
    how's this for an alternative idea? i'll just live my life as normal and if it turns out that god is real and he appears to me when i die, i'll just ask for forgiveness then. i'm pretty sure i'll mean it too if there's the threat of eternal hellfire and damnation as the alternative so i should be all set and won't have wasted my life sitting in boring churches or praying or any of that other crap.
    ... unfortunately, when you die you will have entered the spirit realm ... and your fate will be sealed ... that is why Satan and his demons are already condemned to an eternity in Hell.
    Mankind sinned while in the flesh ... and each of us must un-do our sin while still in the flesh!!!
    vibe666 wrote: »
    in the meantime though, i'm just going to stick with trying to live a good life just because it's the right thing to do, not because of the threat of eternal damnation if i don't.
    ... there are many Un-saved people within the churches with a similar attitude ... but the mistake they are making is that no Man can Save him/herself through good works ... only God and Saved Christians have the power to forgive sin ... and, even then, only when the person being forgiven is repententent and asks for forgiveness and believes on Jesus Christ.


  • #174
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Galvasean wrote: »
    If God truly is all loving he's hardly gonna send someone to helll for all eternity just because they werent convinced of his existence, despite them living a very good life.
    ... justice demands that He does ... because no man can undo sin through good works ... just like he cannot restore life to someone he has killed by performing good works for the rest of your life.

    ... that's just the way it is baby!!!:)
    Galvasean wrote: »
    (so... how about that Origin of Specious Nonsense book huh?)
    ... oh yes ... that devastating book on the complete invalidity of evolution written by an ordinary Dub ... using ordinary common sense language!!!!

    ... sounds like the launch was great crack!!!

    ... Robin even parted with EUR 15 and bought a copy!!!:pac:

    ... for 'research' purposes ... and I suppose you got him to sign it for your granny!!!!:)

    ... don't worry Robin ... your secret admiration for JM is safe with me!!!


  • #175
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    J C wrote: »
    only God and Saved Christians have the power to forgive sin ... and, even then, only when the person being forgiven is repententent and asks for forgiveness and believes of Jesus Christ.

    To be saved from this fate and restore the thetan is the Scientologist's basic
    goal. The thetan thus shares features with the atman of Hindu mythology.
    Dianetic training is the tool through which the Scientologist progresses
    towards the "Clear" state, winning gradual freedom from the reactive mind,
    and acquiring certainty of his or her reality as a spiritual being, or thetan.
    link


  • #176
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    wrote:
    Originally Posted by Galvasean
    If God truly is all loving he's hardly gonna send someone to helll for all eternity just because they werent convinced of his existence, despite them living a very good life.

    PDN
    It's nice to see you agreeing with at least one point of Christian doctrine..
    ... where is that in Christian Doctrine?

    ... if the person doesn't know ... or doesn't have the mental capacity to decide to be Saved ... then God's justice will be sufficient to Save them ... but the 'goodness' of their life is as 'filthy rags' to God ... and will not Save them.

    Mk 10:17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
    18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.


  • #177
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    and secondly, does this mean you can get away with anything as long as you ask for forgiveness?

    does anyone else think hell sounds awesome? I mean lets face it, everything fun is a sin, Im sure its been unionised since the bible was written so id imagine working conditions have improved at the lake of fire, and no christians.


  • #178
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Newaglish wrote: »
    If that's the case, then why bother praying, going to church etc.?
    ... you do so ... not to be Saved ... but to worship and thank the awesome Creator God who Saved you!!!

    ... its a practice session for what you will be doing in Heaven, actually!!!


  • #179
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Hey, if a God exists I hope it's like the one I just described.
    He is beyond your wildest dreams!!!!


  • #180
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    King Mob wrote: »
    So why if the Genesis story was to teach some truth, does it have demonstrably false information?

    Why, if it was divinely inspired, would it not contain some semblance to reality?
    God must have know how the universe formed, and there's no reason for the people he was beaming the words to not to understand a simplistic or dumbed down version.

    It's almost as if the story was entirely made up as pre-scientific explanation for the universe.....
    You would have a very good point ... if Genesis did have demonstrably false information ... but it doesn't!!!


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  • #181
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    vibe666 wrote: »
    so john may ah? bit of a crackpot by the sounds of him.

    robin, did you get to read any of the book yet, or did you just give up and set fire to it already? :D
    ... I didn't think that Atheists were into medieval book burning ... but I guess ... the more things change ... the more they stay the same.

    BTW Saved Christians do not burn other people's books ... they are too confident in the truth of their own position to be bothered by other peoples error!!!


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