To all the Anti-Nationalists here....

Big Mouth · 13-09-2010 10:13PM #1

As so many are you on here are , so I pose the question what should the people of Northern (and indeed in the Republic of) Ireland have done in the 60's, 70's, 80's?

Since you all critictize Gerry Adams, Bobby Sands etc so much I am interested to know what would you have done and what do you think you would have achieved by now?

Honestly, would you have stood by as Catholic people were victims of such injustices in Northern Ireland? Would you have joined the Armed Struggle? Would you have protested in Civil Rights marches?

Over to you......and lets try keep on topic please!

Liam Byrne · 13-09-2010 10:34PM

Big Mouth wrote: »

Would you have stood by as Catholic people were victims of such injustices in Northern Ireland?

No.

Big Mouth wrote: »

Would you have joined the Armed Struggle?

No.

Big Mouth wrote: »

Would you have protested in Civil Rights marches?

Possibly, as long as they weren't hijacked by the violent thugs.

Then again, I'm not really "anti-Nationalist"; people are entitled to their beliefs.

I'm just anti-murder, and I detest when people involved in stuff like that claim my support.

Eliot Rosewater · 13-09-2010 10:35PM

Big Mouth wrote: »

Honestly, would you have stood by as Catholic people were victims of such injustices in Northern Ireland?

I'd have joined the peaceful protests for equal rights. When those rights were won I'd have settled down and tried to make the most of my life by going to college and finding some interesting hobbies. I certainly wouldn't have blamed all the malcontent in my life on abstract notions such as the "nation" into which I was born.

I deal in tangible happiness, like having nice friends and doing enjoyable things. There is no happiness to be won from a united Ireland because it doesn't actually affect you, excepting the colour of the post boxes and the insignia on letters from the tax man. I don't know why people buy into nationalism of this kind because there's nothing tangible to be gained from it.

If the two countries on this island are ever united it will be fascinating to watch the response of nationalists. Suddenly they'll realise, "wait, this won't actually change my life".

KeithAFC · 13-09-2010 10:41PM

Big Mouth wrote: »

As so many are you on here are , so I pose the question what should the people of Northern (and indeed in the Republic of) Ireland have done in the 60's, 70's, 80's?

Since you all critictize Gerry Adams, Bobby Sands etc so much I am interested to know what would you have done and what do you think you would have achieved by now?

Honestly, would you have stood by as Catholic people were victims of such injustices in Northern Ireland? Would you have joined the Armed Struggle? Would you have protested in Civil Rights marches?

Over to you......and lets try keep on topic please!

I think these questions could be asked for both sides.

lugha · 13-09-2010 10:52PM

Big Mouth wrote: »

Honestly, would you have stood by as Catholic people were victims of such injustices in Northern Ireland? Would you have joined the Armed Struggle? Would you have protested in Civil Rights marches?

A response using force to the oppression of catholics would be very difficult to criticize.
However, what we eventually got was a bunch of lads assuming the right to speak for all of us and asserting that they were the true government of Ireland.
Plus a willingness on their part to kill the guardians of this state in some of their "fundraising" in the republic.
Can I ask you, why didn't they stick to being a force to address the wrong-doings done to catholics?

Big Mouth · 13-09-2010 10:55PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think these questions could be asked for both sides.

No they could not. They were the oppressed people not the other way around, don't even try to make it seem as the two peoples were in any way equal.

I don't recall any Protestant civil rights marches or hundreds of people in East Belfast being victims of internment.

@ Liam Byrne - I wonder who you would have called violent thugs if you had of marched on Bloody Sunday?

baby and crumble · 13-09-2010 11:01PM

I never post in here, but I saw the title on the front page...

Why is this always brought to catholic vs protestant? Just wondering. Lots of southern protestants are as irish as irish can be, if you want to put it that way, and lots of northern catholics want to keep Northern Ireland part of Britain.

Just saying.

Big Mouth · 13-09-2010 11:02PM

lugha wrote: »

A response using force to the oppression of catholics would be very difficult to criticize.
However, what we eventually got was a bunch of lads assuming the right to speak for all of us and asserting that they were the true government of Ireland.
Plus a willingness on their part to kill the guardians of this state in some of their "fundraising" in the republic.
Can I ask you, why didn't they stick to being a force to address the wrong-doings done to catholics?

I don't support the IRA now. They are irrelevant in my eyes.
I do however understand their creation and their objectives in the 60's, 70's and 80's. When has anyone on here supported or cordoned the P/R/C IRA activities in the last 15 years?

You are talking about scumbags who may have been in the IRA and are just thugs who would have jumped to join any violent orginization, however, the IRA as a body were well supported by lots of people in the North and South in the period I'm referring too. Why do you think that is?

Permabear · 13-09-2010 11:04PM

This post has been deleted.

PomBear · 13-09-2010 11:09PM

it's funny how us in the South are easy to say this this yet the Nationalist community (who have experienced Republicanism first hand) in the six counties have continually pledged their support to Republicanism

Big Mouth · 13-09-2010 11:13PM

@ Liam Byrne, DonegalFella and others with fair weather atitudes

I take it you didn't support Nelson Mandela and the ANC as these were considered terrorists by apartheid South Africa and were "violent thugs" too?

timespast · 13-09-2010 11:16PM

In fairness all of this belongs in the past...... the one's who continually go on about the past are the one's who wish to drag SF down.

It's been 15 years and SF are a left wing party who have made major gains in the North and hope to do so in the rest of Ireland.

How about turning it onto Labour/ Democratic Left/ Workers Party/ Official SF?

We've more important things to be worrying about.

Liam Byrne · 13-09-2010 11:16PM

Big Mouth wrote: »

@ Liam Byrne - I wonder who you would have called violent thugs if you had of marched on Bloody Sunday?

What is "had of" supposed to mean ?

ballsymchugh · 13-09-2010 11:21PM

zoegh wrote: »

I never post in here, but I saw the title on the front page...

Why is this always brought to catholic vs protestant? Just wondering. Lots of southern protestants are as irish as irish can be, if you want to put it that way, and lots of northern catholics want to keep Northern Ireland part of Britain.

Just saying.

good point, and plenty of protestants marched in the civil rights demonstrations also.

Liam Byrne · 13-09-2010 11:24PM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

good point, and plenty of protestants marched in the civil rights demonstrations also.

I remember even as a teenager wondering why the news reports focussed on what religion the victims were.

To me it made no sense.

OK, so those involved may say "yaaay, another prod dead", but for most of the violence which targetted civilians, who's to know what religion they were ?

I mean, of the 28 murdered in Omagh, who knows ( or cares ) what religion they were ?

amacachi · 13-09-2010 11:25PM

Big Mouth wrote: »

@ Liam Byrne, DonegalFella and others with fair weather atitudes

I take it you didn't support Nelson Mandela and the ANC as these were considered terrorists by apartheid South Africa and were "violent thugs" too?

I wouldn't have the same view (though few of the lads in the ANC were as perfect as history seems to be trying hard to paint them). It's very easy looking from the future and from the outside but after the mid 70s the armed republican movement stopped being much to do with republicanism for most people. What people seem to forget is that the civil rights marches were about what they were called, they had nothing to do with nationalism. Unfortunately it evolved as these things tend to, from civil rights to nationalism (sometimes separatist) to an excuse for thugs to make money. Just look at the so-called republicans now, drugs and contraband seems to be mainly what they do. While contraband has been a mainstay since early enough the drugs are proof that it's thuggery and money that are all they're about.
My dad went on marches in the late 60s and was just lucky he wasn't at the one that they decided to open fire at. He came down here and was treated like **** by a lot of the so-called republicans (anti-brits) down here (and by the Gardaí for that matter), so he knows and I know somewhat how empty the support of a lot of the so-called dissidents is.

The movement went the wrong way in my opinion but I blame the minority who steered it towards making money rather than the early masses who felt that it was their only option.

amacachi · 13-09-2010 11:27PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK, so those involved may say "yaaay, another prod dead", but for most of the violence which targetted civilians, who's to know what religion they were ?

Those same lads would be the first to give out about northerners coming this side of the border as well.

Liam Byrne · 13-09-2010 11:40PM

amacachi wrote: »

Those same lads would be the first to give out about northerners coming this side of the border as well.

.....while probably driving over the same border to buy their cheap booze and diesel!

lugha · 13-09-2010 11:41PM

Big Mouth wrote: »

You are talking about scumbags who may have been in the IRA and are just thugs who would have jumped to join any violent orginization

No, I am taking about PIRA.

Big Mouth wrote: »

@ Liam Byrne, DonegalFella and others with fair weather atitudes

I take it you didn't support Nelson Mandela and the ANC as these were considered terrorists by apartheid South Africa and were "violent thugs" too?

Ah, Nelson! He hasn't made an appearance here in a while! :pac:

Once again, with feeling. The black South Africans (who did not have a vote) had the support of the majority of the people they claimed to represent. PIRA, demonstrably, could only claim the support of a tiny minority of the people they claimed to represent.

If there was a party advocating a peaceful solution (a la SDLP) which drew the support of the majority of blacks, but were ignored by the ANC, then perhaps the comparisment might be fair.

PomBear · 13-09-2010 11:52PM

lugha wrote: »

No, I am taking about PIRA.

Ah, Nelson! He hasn't made an appearance here in a while! :pac:

Once again, with feeling. The black South Africans (who did not have a vote) had the support of the majority of the people they claimed to represent. PIRA, demonstrably, could only claim the support of a tiny minority of the people they claimed to represent.

If there was a party advocating a peaceful solution (a la SDLP) which drew the support of the majority of blacks, but were ignored by the ANC, then perhaps the comparisment might be fair.

Ever hear of Gerrymandering? Support for Republicanism could not be represented fully as democracy and therefore demographic voting statistics were extremely flawed

lugha · 13-09-2010 11:55PM

PomBear wrote: »

Ever hear of Gerrymandering? Support for Republicanism could not be represented fully as democracy and therefore demographic voting statistics were extremely flawed

Are you claiming that Sinn Fein had greater support than the SDLP?

Not that it matters. They certainly did not have the support of us down here.

View · 14-09-2010 12:04AM

Big Mouth wrote: »

As so many are you on here are , so I pose the question what should the people of Northern (and indeed in the Republic of) Ireland have done in the 60's, 70's, 80's?

Since you all critictize Gerry Adams, Bobby Sands etc so much I am interested to know what would you have done and what do you think you would have achieved by now?

Honestly, would you have stood by as Catholic people were victims of such injustices in Northern Ireland? Would you have joined the Armed Struggle? Would you have protested in Civil Rights marches?

Over to you......and lets try keep on topic please!

Wtf, is an anti-Nationalist?

Do you mean someone who wouldn't have supported the campaign of the IRA at the time?

Lest anyone forget, one of the (other) stated aims of that campaign involved the overthrow of the democratically elected government of (the Republic of) Ireland.

PomBear · 14-09-2010 12:08AM

lugha wrote: »

Are you claiming that Sinn Fein had greater support than the SDLP?
Not that it matters. They certainly did not have the support of us down here.

Yes.

Well Sinn Féin did not take their seats, voting did not see their candidates make a difference, Nationalist didn't vote and when they didn't vote their constituency was gerrymandered. Ofcourse SF had more.

Liam Byrne · 14-09-2010 12:10AM

PomBear wrote: »

Yes.

Well Sinn Féin did not take their seats, voting did not see their candidates make a difference, Nationalist didn't vote and when they didn't vote their constituency was gerrymandered. Ofcourse SF had more.

What ?????

So you're making the assumption that anyone who didn't vote was automatically an SF supporter ?

And also claiming that they stopped voting because SF didn't take their seats, even though they knew in advance that SF wouldn't take their seats ?

PomBear · 14-09-2010 12:33AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What ?????

So you're making the assumption that anyone who didn't vote was automatically an SF supporter ?

And also claiming that they stopped voting because SF didn't take their seats, even though they knew in advance that SF wouldn't take their seats ?

No i'm saying many Republicans did not vote as they saw it to be useless.

Very few SF voters would vote as for the reason above, those that did saw their vote Gerrymandered. Also, SDLP capitalised on this as they would flaunt themselves as a party to get things done politically, not many fell into this trap.

lugha · 14-09-2010 12:38AM

PomBear wrote: »

No i'm saying many Republicans did not vote as they saw it to be useless.

Very few SF voters would vote as for the reason above, those that did saw their vote Gerrymandered. Also, SDLP capitalised on this as they would flaunt themselves as a party to get things done politically, not many fell into this trap.

So how did Seamus Mallon manage to become deputy first minister?

PomBear · 14-09-2010 12:59AM

lugha wrote: »

So how did Seamus Mallon manage to become deputy first minister?

Yes SDLP were the higher party then, have I not explained why this was?

Pat D. Almighty · 14-09-2010 02:16AM

Thread has gone off topic, as predicted. There are many threads on this forum discussing the pros/cons & merits/demerits of militant republicanism. I'll answer the OPs questions in the context of the beginning of the troubles.

Big Mouth wrote: »

Honestly, would you have stood by as Catholic people were victims of such injustices in Northern Ireland?

No, I certainly would not. I am not a Catholic, but any sort of oppressive injustice and sectarianism sickens me.

Big Mouth wrote: »

Would you have joined the Armed Struggle?

It depends what age I was. If I was a teenager, in my naivety, I probably would have. If it was kicking off at the age I am now, then probably not, but I'd get involved in the party political side of republican activism.

Big Mouth wrote: »

Would you have protested in Civil Rights marches?

Certainly.

KeithAFC · 14-09-2010 07:07AM

Big Mouth wrote: »

No they could not. They were the oppressed people not the other way around, don't even try to make it seem as the two peoples were in any way equal.

I don't recall any Protestant civil rights marches or hundreds of people in East Belfast being victims of internment.

@ Liam Byrne - I wonder who you would have called violent thugs if you had of marched on Bloody Sunday?

There was many protestants which went on the Civil rights march. You just insulted them.

gurramok · 14-09-2010 07:57AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So you're making the assumption that anyone who didn't vote was automatically an SF supporter ?

Alot of the electorate which didn't vote in working class nationalist areas would have been like this.
This did happen up till the 90's in certain areas(mostly working class). That election machine called SF went on a voter registration push in their strongholds and this along with demographics helped push up their vote since then.

gurramok · 14-09-2010 08:03AM

lugha wrote: »

Are you claiming that Sinn Fein had greater support than the SDLP?
Not that it matters. They certainly did not have the support of us down here.

There was no 'Troubles' down here so the population was not directly affected by national identity or civil oppression as they had won their freedom and hence voted for other parties with a non-militant ethos.

Its no co-incidence that the majority of the electorate up north vote for parties where national identity is important in their decision making (SF & DUP).

To all the Anti-Nationalists here....

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