If social welfare is cut should tax be increased too?

feicim · 08-09-2010 08:22PM #1

In the interests of sharing the pain, if social welfare is cut should tax be increased too.

For example should a say 5% cut in social welfare me matched with a 5% tax on take home pay for workers?

There are some people calling for social welfare cuts, but is it fair to place all of the burden on this section of society?

For all the complaining about how future generations are going to be paying x amount of extra tax (to fund current massive deficit) ... there has been no income tax or vat increases. ie no additional burden for workers.

The burden for workers is being laid off. Once this horrible fate has met them, it seems then they are fair game for further income cuts.

The country needs to take drastic action, but I think it should be across the board with workers paying additional taxes not just cutting social welfare payments.

Cutting expenditure is one element, raising the government tax-take is another.

richardbradley · 08-09-2010 08:28PM

agree that everyone should share the pain but what do you think the income levy is if it isnt a tax? Vat rises have been proven not to work as they just suppress consumer spending by the same amount. As there has been two years of deflation, and wages have reduced, a small cut in welfare is fair game but all will get some pain i think.

bbam · 08-09-2010 08:33PM

feicim wrote: »

. there has been no income tax or vat increases. ie no additional burden for workers.

AHemmm... the income levi or the pensions levi
And I don't support any cut in dole..

bbam · 08-09-2010 08:34PM

bbam wrote: »

AHemmm... the income levi or the pensions levi
And I don't support any cut in dole..

Ya beat me to it... and god my spelling is crap :rolleyes:

feicim · 08-09-2010 08:36PM

bbam wrote: »

AHemmm... the income levi or the pensions levi
And I don't support any cut in dole..

Oops. Sorry I forgot about those income cuts.

Probably best not to open that can of worms!

jimmycrackcorm · 08-09-2010 08:47PM

feicim wrote: »

In the interests of sharing the pain, if social welfare is cut should tax be increased too.

For example should a say 5% cut in social welfare me matched with a 5% tax on take home pay for workers?

There are some people calling for social welfare cuts, but is it fair to place all of the burden on this section of society?

Is it fair for taxpayers to subsidise social welfare?
It's all right to say that workers pay PRSI so that they can get the benefit of that if they subsequently become unemployed but why should those who haven't contributed not get cut?

feicim · 08-09-2010 08:51PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Is it fair for taxpayers to subsidise social welfare?

It probably is fair to be honest, because if they don't who will?

Maybe you would prefer we were like a 3rd world country whose poor has to rely on foreign aid handouts? Maybe goal or concern could set up an Irish aid camp?

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It's all right to say that workers pay PRSI so that they can get the benefit of that if they subsequently become unemployed but why should those who haven't contributed not get cut?

Dunno. Maybe so they aren't forced to starve or break into your house, or mug you?

timespast · 08-09-2010 08:55PM

Social Welfare cuts have been introduced........ earlier in the year.

Cookie_Monster · 08-09-2010 09:21PM

Tax needs to be upped but rather than raise the percentage, the bands should be re-jigged to include more people lower down and a third higher rate band. Or maybe lower the 20% to 12/15% but lower the credits right down to include everyone earning.

The dole and other welfare benefit such as rent allowance etc need to be heavily cut. the high levels of these are artificially propping up prices in many areas. Rent cannot really fall anymore as the gov funds it so highly for example. The cost of living is only really going to fall is the dole and minimum are both cut by significant amounts. Look at it here compared to the North, it is stupidly high.

feicim · 08-09-2010 09:39PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The dole and other welfare benefit such as rent allowance etc need to be heavily cut. the high levels of these are artificially propping up prices in many areas.

Can you explain why they need to be heavily cut? Any cuts will be money taken out of the economy... cue more shrinking... spiralling job losses.

I think that rent allowance should be done away with as I'm sure the state is the de facto owner of many fine new properties around the country.

While on a cutting spree...

abolish seanad, president, private gov jets / helicopters. Give the dail a fixed budget to work with, one suitable for a country on skid row (no more blank cheques).

Cookie_Monster · 08-09-2010 10:06PM

feicim wrote: »

Can you explain why they need to be heavily cut? Any cuts will be money taken out of the economy... cue more shrinking... spiralling job losses.

because people feel better off on benefit than 25k a year jobs
because the country cannot afford the level its at

Count Dooku · 09-09-2010 06:16AM

feicim wrote: »

Can you explain why they need to be heavily cut? Any cuts will be money taken out of the economy... cue more shrinking... spiralling job losses.

Reduction of home take through high taxes will have the same effect on economy

Count Dooku · 09-09-2010 06:25AM

feicim wrote: »

Maybe you would prefer we were like a 3rd world country whose poor has to rely on foreign aid handouts? Maybe goal or concern could set up an Irish aid camp?

The only difference between third world countries and Ireland is that nearly bankrupt baNAMA republic of Ireland is borrowing money for 0.7% of GDP overseas aid

dan_d · 09-09-2010 08:30AM

feicim wrote: »

Can you explain why they need to be heavily cut? Any cuts will be money taken out of the economy... cue more shrinking... spiralling job losses.

I think that rent allowance should be done away with as I'm sure the state is the de facto owner of many fine new properties around the country.

While on a cutting spree...

abolish seanad, president, private gov jets / helicopters. Give the dail a fixed budget to work with, one suitable for a country on skid row (no more blank cheques).

I agree with all your suggestions - except the first one. Where do we get this idea that cutting benefits will be money taken out of the economy? That doesn't make even the remotest sense. The spending power of those on the dole is not spending power as such. It's bill-paying power mostly. It's not like social welfare receivers (and I am one:() are out bouying up retail sales by going on shopping sprees every week.

The dole should be cut. Has to be cut. But I don't think it's as simple as cut it outright...I think the cuts should be sliding, according to the number of years a person is on the dole, and that cash given out is reduced and replaced with vouchers, the longer you are on it. (makes it less attractive for those who are basically scrounging)

changes · 09-09-2010 11:34AM

feicim wrote: »

In the interests of sharing the pain, if social welfare is cut should tax be increased too.

For example should a say 5% cut in social welfare me matched with a 5% tax on take home pay for workers?

I think social welfare should be cut and changed bacause it is too generous and particularly be cut drastically for long termers (2 yrs +).

But workers should not be taxed an extra 5% just because social welfare is cut.

Also, more people should be brought into the tax net and a 3rd rate of tax should be imposed on any earnings above 50K imo.

Fighting Irish · 09-09-2010 12:14PM

feicim wrote: »

In the interests of sharing the pain, if social welfare is cut should tax be increased too.

For example should a say 5% cut in social welfare me matched with a 5% tax on take home pay for workers?

There are some people calling for social welfare cuts, but is it fair to place all of the burden on this section of society?

That section of society is the most looked after

bbam · 09-09-2010 12:16PM

changes wrote: »

I think social welfare should be cut and changed bacause it is too generous and particularly be cut drastically for long termers (2 yrs +).

I'm not sure this is the time to cut social welfare at all... there are many families out there where the primary earner will be 2 years out of work and genuinely looking for work, that would be punnishing them because an elite few screwed up our economy on top of a global down-turn

changes wrote: »

But workers should not be taxed an extra 5% just because social welfare is cut.

Please don't think you won't be paying more tax... over the next two years we will pay more and more tax, it may not be called a tax but you will pay it... It's called widening of the tax base.. Water charges, rates, property tax, septic tank liscencing... some or all are on the way

changes wrote: »

Also, more people should be brought into the tax net and a 3rd rate of tax should be imposed on any earnings above 50K imo.

Great idea, probably €75K would be more like it, don't think it will happen in the next budget but in the one after that... also remember we had this in the past but the FF+PD government eliminated it, huge mistake!

feicim · 09-09-2010 12:55PM

Fighting Irish wrote: »

That section of society is the most looked after

(I'd say the golden circle banks, big business men and politicians are the best looked after)

Social welfare recipients may be next alright. Why do you think that is?

Your post sounds like mé-féinism. (eg. Moi tax munny goin' to the bleedin' scroungers dey geh enough de lazy baxterds. Woi do oi haf to wurk? Not fair. I hates dem. Giv dem a few butter vouchers and a kick up de hole.)

Fighting Irish · 09-09-2010 01:09PM

feicim wrote: »

(I'd say the golden circle banks, big business men and politicians are the best looked after)

Social welfare recipients may be next alright. Why do you think that is?

Your post sounds like mé-féinism. (eg. Moi tax munny goin' to the bleedin' scroungers dey geh enough de lazy baxterds. Woi do oi haf to wurk? Not fair. I hates dem. Giv dem a few butter vouchers and a kick up de hole.)

I'm on the dole

feicim · 09-09-2010 01:18PM

@ fighting irish. I retract my me-feinism statement.

snaps · 12-09-2010 03:57PM

Social welfare payments get cut or reduced??? Ok take this scenerio which im sure is very common around Ireland at the moment. The last 13 years ive worked my socks off for a wage of 30-45k a year, All my money pumped into a house now, lost my job last year and been on social welfare since. My outgoings a month is around 900€ (Thats just mortgage, electric, phone), Ive no sky tv or other luxuries but do have a car which now has come to the point of coming off the road as i cant afford to run it. Im down to shopping for all the reduced items in the supermarkets and freezing them to re use later. I dont go to the pub anymore like i used to. I had 25k of savings 20 months ago and now have 12k.

I am currently getting 196€ a week, which doesnt even cover my outgoings, i have used 13k of savings keeping food on table, bills paid, car on the road.

Im now in the situation where the social welfare are saying ive ran out of PRSI payments so have to re apply for job seekers allowance (So i get a break in my benifits), apparently its only a year on year allowance regarding PRSI, so if youve worked 25 years like me, that means nothing.

We are now coming into winter, heating oil is 74c a litre compared to 49c this time last year. Electricity prices are getting higher from this month, so to me things are getting even worse. Luckily ive got a trailer load of timber to burn on the fire for free, but im sure the government will soon tax that too.

The only good thing about my situation is that i live by myself and dont have a family, heaven knows what it would be like for a family now.

johnnyskeleton · 12-09-2010 05:52PM

snaps wrote: »

Social welfare payments get cut or reduced??? Ok take this scenerio which im sure is very common around Ireland at the moment. The last 13 years ive worked my socks off for a wage of 30-45k a year, All my money pumped into a house now, lost my job last year and been on social welfare since. My outgoings a month is around 900€ (Thats just mortgage, electric, phone), Ive no sky tv or other luxuries but do have a car which now has come to the point of coming off the road as i cant afford to run it. Im down to shopping for all the reduced items in the supermarkets and freezing them to re use later. I dont go to the pub anymore like i used to. I had 25k of savings 20 months ago and now have 12k.

I am currently getting 196€ a week, which doesnt even cover my outgoings, i have used 13k of savings keeping food on table, bills paid, car on the road.

Im now in the situation where the social welfare are saying ive ran out of PRSI payments so have to re apply for job seekers allowance (So i get a break in my benifits), apparently its only a year on year allowance regarding PRSI, so if youve worked 25 years like me, that means nothing.

We are now coming into winter, heating oil is 74c a litre compared to 49c this time last year. Electricity prices are getting higher from this month, so to me things are getting even worse. Luckily ive got a trailer load of timber to burn on the fire for free, but im sure the government will soon tax that too.

The only good thing about my situation is that i live by myself and dont have a family, heaven knows what it would be like for a family now.

Have you applied for the mortgage interest suppliment scheme? Might save a few quid on the outgoings.

Arnold Layne · 12-09-2010 08:32PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because people feel better off on benefit than 25k a year jobs
because the country cannot afford the level its at

That was a soundbite from Ff indicating cuts are on the way. Its absolute bollocks! I was made redundant last February: did not receive money that was owed to me in lieu of notice (I worked for one of those bleeding heart SME's).

I am married with 2 kids under the age of 4, wife working part time, and I got 300 euro a week. Not enough to pay the mortgage, let alone bills.

Because I was on JSB, I could not qualify for all the benefits that those on JSA get. Nowhere near the €25K being spouted about by those with TD & Ministerial pensions that are over the said amount.

If the country cannot afford to pay the amounts in welfare, then they should look at cutting the benefits of those that are habitual "dole-heads", i.e those that can get over €35000 from the system and who have never contibuted one cent. The Government can also look at reducing the cost of living; which they have shown their "competence" by raising fuel bills, etc.

Stop reading the indo & Sindo and take a look at the state of the country we're leaving in.

As the Manic Street Preachers sang; If you tolerate this, then your chilldren will be next!!

Automan · 12-09-2010 10:56PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because people feel better off on benefit than 25k a year jobs
because the country cannot afford the level its at

What BS, so why are there 15,000 people applying for 500 jobs in DAA with yearly wages around the 25,000 mark?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/15000-applicants-compete-for-500-new-jobs-at-airport-2326077.html

hmmm · 12-09-2010 11:26PM

It's unfair that someone who has worked all their life and ends up on the dole should get paid only the same basic rate as someone who has never bothered working a day in their life. Workers who lose their job should be paid a % of their former salary on the dole, reducing as time goes by so they have time to adjust. The dole for shysters should be reduced or preferably eliminated.

nadir · 13-09-2010 02:00AM

Totally agree with hmmm , people who get laid off after extended employment (2+ years) should get 80% or so of their salary for the first three months , 50% for the next 3 months, and so forth.
People who don't work (bar people with medical disabilities of course) should basically get only food stamps and some form of decent shelter and absolutely minimum or no cash.

Count Dooku · 13-09-2010 06:41AM

Automan wrote: »

What BS, so why are there 15,000 people applying for 500 jobs in DAA with yearly wages around the 25,000 mark?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/15000-applicants-compete-for-500-new-jobs-at-airport-2326077.html

Because it were secure jobs in state owned company
In private sector it is different
More than 500 chase 120 jobs at fashion store

dvpower · 13-09-2010 12:59PM

hmmm wrote: »

It's unfair that someone who has worked all their life and ends up on the dole should get paid only the same basic rate as someone who has never bothered working a day in their life. Workers who lose their job should be paid a % of their former salary on the dole, reducing as time goes by so they have time to adjust. The dole for shysters should be reduced or preferably eliminated.

There used to be a pay related benefit but it was done away with a long time ago. Shame.

4.—The weekly rate of pay-related benefit payable to a person at any time shall be an amount equal to forty per cent. of the part (if any) of his reckonable weekly earnings for the relevant income tax year that exceeds £14 but does not exceed such limit as stands prescribed for the time being subject to such conditions as may be prescribed to restrict by reference to those earnings the total amount of benefit payable under the Acts to the person in respect of any week.

Automan · 13-09-2010 05:10PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Because it were secure jobs in state owned company
In private sector it is different
More than 500 chase 120 jobs at fashion store

What a terrible example.
If you read the article you linked to you would see that the jobs were only announced:

"More than 120 jobs will be created with the opening of a flagship store for fashion chain New Look -- but there are already five applicants chasing each sales position on offer."

Still another 2 months to go:

"It is due to open in early November and recruitment is under way, with the company already having received more than 500 applications for the sales positions via its website."

As time gets closer to the application cutoff point there will be a lot more people applying for the job.

The original point made by Cookie_Monster suggested that nobody would apply for these jobs because every one gets 25,000 euros a year on the social:rolleyes:

theg81der · 13-09-2010 05:20PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because people feel better off on benefit than 25k a year jobs
because the country cannot afford the level its at

Name one? It doesn`t matter how many times people tell a lie it`s still a lie. No one who has joined the dole cues in the last 2/3 years would turn €25000 down NOBODY!

13-09-2010 05:25PM

Just let them cut Welfare.

500,000 Angry people finding it already hard to survive through no fault of their own!

Watch suicides rise.
Watch crime rise.
Watch poverty rise.
Watch more people fail in paying their debts.
Watch more money taken out of the economy.
Watch tax revenues fall.
Watch unemployment rise.

Green shoots, turned a corner blah blah blah.

If social welfare is cut should tax be increased too?

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