If social welfare is cut should tax be increased too?

feicim

In the interests of sharing the pain, if social welfare is cut should tax be increased too.

For example should a say 5% cut in social welfare me matched with a 5% tax on take home pay for workers?

There are some people calling for social welfare cuts, but is it fair to place all of the burden on this section of society?

For all the complaining about how future generations are going to be paying x amount of extra tax (to fund current massive deficit) ... there has been no income tax or vat increases. ie no additional burden for workers.

The burden for workers is being laid off. Once this horrible fate has met them, it seems then they are fair game for further income cuts.

The country needs to take drastic action, but I think it should be across the board with workers paying additional taxes not just cutting social welfare payments.

Cutting expenditure is one element, raising the government tax-take is another.

richardbradley

agree that everyone should share the pain but what do you think the income levy is if it isnt a tax? Vat rises have been proven not to work as they just suppress consumer spending by the same amount. As there has been two years of deflation, and wages have reduced, a small cut in welfare is fair game but all will get some pain i think.

bbam

feicim wrote: »

. there has been no income tax or vat increases. ie no additional burden for workers.

AHemmm... the income levi or the pensions levi
And I don't support any cut in dole..

bbam

bbam wrote: »

AHemmm... the income levi or the pensions levi
And I don't support any cut in dole..

Ya beat me to it... and god my spelling is crap :rolleyes:

feicim

bbam wrote: »

AHemmm... the income levi or the pensions levi
And I don't support any cut in dole..

Oops. Sorry I forgot about those income cuts. Probably best not to open that can of worms!

jimmycrackcorm

feicim wrote: »

In the interests of sharing the pain, if social welfare is cut should tax be increased too.

For example should a say 5% cut in social welfare me matched with a 5% tax on take home pay for workers?

There are some people calling for social welfare cuts, but is it fair to place all of the burden on this section of society?

Is it fair for taxpayers to subsidise social welfare?
It's all right to say that workers pay PRSI so that they can get the benefit of that if they subsequently become unemployed but why should those who haven't contributed not get cut?

feicim

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Is it fair for taxpayers to subsidise social welfare?

It probably is fair to be honest, because if they don't who will?

Maybe you would prefer we were like a 3rd world country whose poor has to rely on foreign aid handouts? Maybe goal or concern could set up an Irish aid camp?

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It's all right to say that workers pay PRSI so that they can get the benefit of that if they subsequently become unemployed but why should those who haven't contributed not get cut?

Dunno. Maybe so they aren't forced to starve or break into your house, or mug you?

timespast

Social Welfare cuts have been introduced........ earlier in the year.

Cookie_Monster

Tax needs to be upped but rather than raise the percentage, the bands should be re-jigged to include more people lower down and a third higher rate band. Or maybe lower the 20% to 12/15% but lower the credits right down to include everyone earning.

The dole and other welfare benefit such as rent allowance etc need to be heavily cut. the high levels of these are artificially propping up prices in many areas. Rent cannot really fall anymore as the gov funds it so highly for example. The cost of living is only really going to fall is the dole and minimum are both cut by significant amounts. Look at it here compared to the North, it is stupidly high.

feicim

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The dole and other welfare benefit such as rent allowance etc need to be heavily cut. the high levels of these are artificially propping up prices in many areas.

Can you explain why they need to be heavily cut? Any cuts will be money taken out of the economy... cue more shrinking... spiralling job losses.

I think that rent allowance should be done away with as I'm sure the state is the de facto owner of many fine new properties around the country.

While on a cutting spree...

abolish seanad, president, private gov jets / helicopters. Give the dail a fixed budget to work with, one suitable for a country on skid row (no more blank cheques).

Cookie_Monster

feicim wrote: »

Can you explain why they need to be heavily cut? Any cuts will be money taken out of the economy... cue more shrinking... spiralling job losses.

because people feel better off on benefit than 25k a year jobs
because the country cannot afford the level its at

Count Dooku

feicim wrote: »

Can you explain why they need to be heavily cut? Any cuts will be money taken out of the economy... cue more shrinking... spiralling job losses.

Reduction of home take through high taxes will have the same effect on economy

Count Dooku

feicim wrote: »

Maybe you would prefer we were like a 3rd world country whose poor has to rely on foreign aid handouts? Maybe goal or concern could set up an Irish aid camp?

The only difference between third world countries and Ireland is that nearly bankrupt baNAMA republic of Ireland is borrowing money for 0.7% of GDP overseas aid

dan_d

feicim wrote: »

Can you explain why they need to be heavily cut? Any cuts will be money taken out of the economy... cue more shrinking... spiralling job losses.

I think that rent allowance should be done away with as I'm sure the state is the de facto owner of many fine new properties around the country.

While on a cutting spree...

abolish seanad, president, private gov jets / helicopters. Give the dail a fixed budget to work with, one suitable for a country on skid row (no more blank cheques).

I agree with all your suggestions - except the first one. Where do we get this idea that cutting benefits will be money taken out of the economy? That doesn't make even the remotest sense. The spending power of those on the dole is not spending power as such. It's bill-paying power mostly. It's not like social welfare receivers (and I am one:() are out bouying up retail sales by going on shopping sprees every week.

The dole should be cut. Has to be cut. But I don't think it's as simple as cut it outright...I think the cuts should be sliding, according to the number of years a person is on the dole, and that cash given out is reduced and replaced with vouchers, the longer you are on it. (makes it less attractive for those who are basically scrounging)

changes

feicim wrote: »

In the interests of sharing the pain, if social welfare is cut should tax be increased too.

For example should a say 5% cut in social welfare me matched with a 5% tax on take home pay for workers?

I think social welfare should be cut and changed bacause it is too generous and particularly be cut drastically for long termers (2 yrs +).

But workers should not be taxed an extra 5% just because social welfare is cut.

Also, more people should be brought into the tax net and a 3rd rate of tax should be imposed on any earnings above 50K imo.

Fighting Irish

feicim wrote: »

In the interests of sharing the pain, if social welfare is cut should tax be increased too.

For example should a say 5% cut in social welfare me matched with a 5% tax on take home pay for workers?

There are some people calling for social welfare cuts, but is it fair to place all of the burden on this section of society?

That section of society is the most looked after

bbam

changes wrote: »

I think social welfare should be cut and changed bacause it is too generous and particularly be cut drastically for long termers (2 yrs +).

I'm not sure this is the time to cut social welfare at all... there are many families out there where the primary earner will be 2 years out of work and genuinely looking for work, that would be punnishing them because an elite few screwed up our economy on top of a global down-turn

changes wrote: »

But workers should not be taxed an extra 5% just because social welfare is cut.

Please don't think you won't be paying more tax... over the next two years we will pay more and more tax, it may not be called a tax but you will pay it... It's called widening of the tax base.. Water charges, rates, property tax, septic tank liscencing... some or all are on the way

changes wrote: »

Also, more people should be brought into the tax net and a 3rd rate of tax should be imposed on any earnings above 50K imo.

Great idea, probably €75K would be more like it, don't think it will happen in the next budget but in the one after that... also remember we had this in the past but the FF+PD government eliminated it, huge mistake!

feicim

Fighting Irish wrote: »

That section of society is the most looked after

(I'd say the golden circle banks, big business men and politicians are the best looked after)

Social welfare recipients may be next alright. Why do you think that is?

Your post sounds like mé-féinism. (eg. Moi tax munny goin' to the bleedin' scroungers dey geh enough de lazy baxterds. Woi do oi haf to wurk? Not fair. I hates dem. Giv dem a few butter vouchers and a kick up de hole.)

Fighting Irish

feicim wrote: »

(I'd say the golden circle banks, big business men and politicians are the best looked after)

Social welfare recipients may be next alright. Why do you think that is?

Your post sounds like mé-féinism. (eg. Moi tax munny goin' to the bleedin' scroungers dey geh enough de lazy baxterds. Woi do oi haf to wurk? Not fair. I hates dem. Giv dem a few butter vouchers and a kick up de hole.)

I'm on the dole

feicim

@ fighting irish. I retract my me-feinism statement.

snaps

Social welfare payments get cut or reduced??? Ok take this scenerio which im sure is very common around Ireland at the moment. The last 13 years ive worked my socks off for a wage of 30-45k a year, All my money pumped into a house now, lost my job last year and been on social welfare since. My outgoings a month is around 900€ (Thats just mortgage, electric, phone), Ive no sky tv or other luxuries but do have a car which now has come to the point of coming off the road as i cant afford to run it. Im down to shopping for all the reduced items in the supermarkets and freezing them to re use later. I dont go to the pub anymore like i used to. I had 25k of savings 20 months ago and now have 12k.

I am currently getting 196€ a week, which doesnt even cover my outgoings, i have used 13k of savings keeping food on table, bills paid, car on the road.

Im now in the situation where the social welfare are saying ive ran out of PRSI payments so have to re apply for job seekers allowance (So i get a break in my benifits), apparently its only a year on year allowance regarding PRSI, so if youve worked 25 years like me, that means nothing.

We are now coming into winter, heating oil is 74c a litre compared to 49c this time last year. Electricity prices are getting higher from this month, so to me things are getting even worse. Luckily ive got a trailer load of timber to burn on the fire for free, but im sure the government will soon tax that too.

The only good thing about my situation is that i live by myself and dont have a family, heaven knows what it would be like for a family now.

johnnyskeleton

snaps wrote: »

Social welfare payments get cut or reduced??? Ok take this scenerio which im sure is very common around Ireland at the moment. The last 13 years ive worked my socks off for a wage of 30-45k a year, All my money pumped into a house now, lost my job last year and been on social welfare since. My outgoings a month is around 900€ (Thats just mortgage, electric, phone), Ive no sky tv or other luxuries but do have a car which now has come to the point of coming off the road as i cant afford to run it. Im down to shopping for all the reduced items in the supermarkets and freezing them to re use later. I dont go to the pub anymore like i used to. I had 25k of savings 20 months ago and now have 12k.

I am currently getting 196€ a week, which doesnt even cover my outgoings, i have used 13k of savings keeping food on table, bills paid, car on the road.

Im now in the situation where the social welfare are saying ive ran out of PRSI payments so have to re apply for job seekers allowance (So i get a break in my benifits), apparently its only a year on year allowance regarding PRSI, so if youve worked 25 years like me, that means nothing.

We are now coming into winter, heating oil is 74c a litre compared to 49c this time last year. Electricity prices are getting higher from this month, so to me things are getting even worse. Luckily ive got a trailer load of timber to burn on the fire for free, but im sure the government will soon tax that too.

The only good thing about my situation is that i live by myself and dont have a family, heaven knows what it would be like for a family now.

Have you applied for the mortgage interest suppliment scheme? Might save a few quid on the outgoings.

Arnold Layne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because people feel better off on benefit than 25k a year jobs
because the country cannot afford the level its at

That was a soundbite from Ff indicating cuts are on the way. Its absolute bollocks! I was made redundant last February: did not receive money that was owed to me in lieu of notice (I worked for one of those bleeding heart SME's).

I am married with 2 kids under the age of 4, wife working part time, and I got 300 euro a week. Not enough to pay the mortgage, let alone bills.

Because I was on JSB, I could not qualify for all the benefits that those on JSA get. Nowhere near the €25K being spouted about by those with TD & Ministerial pensions that are over the said amount.

If the country cannot afford to pay the amounts in welfare, then they should look at cutting the benefits of those that are habitual "dole-heads", i.e those that can get over €35000 from the system and who have never contibuted one cent. The Government can also look at reducing the cost of living; which they have shown their "competence" by raising fuel bills, etc.

Stop reading the indo & Sindo and take a look at the state of the country we're leaving in.

As the Manic Street Preachers sang; If you tolerate this, then your chilldren will be next!!

Automan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because people feel better off on benefit than 25k a year jobs
because the country cannot afford the level its at

What BS, so why are there 15,000 people applying for 500 jobs in DAA with yearly wages around the 25,000 mark?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/15000-applicants-compete-for-500-new-jobs-at-airport-2326077.html

hmmm

It's unfair that someone who has worked all their life and ends up on the dole should get paid only the same basic rate as someone who has never bothered working a day in their life. Workers who lose their job should be paid a % of their former salary on the dole, reducing as time goes by so they have time to adjust. The dole for shysters should be reduced or preferably eliminated.

nadir

Totally agree with hmmm , people who get laid off after extended employment (2+ years) should get 80% or so of their salary for the first three months , 50% for the next 3 months, and so forth.
People who don't work (bar people with medical disabilities of course) should basically get only food stamps and some form of decent shelter and absolutely minimum or no cash.

Count Dooku

Automan wrote: »

What BS, so why are there 15,000 people applying for 500 jobs in DAA with yearly wages around the 25,000 mark?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/15000-applicants-compete-for-500-new-jobs-at-airport-2326077.html

Because it were secure jobs in state owned company
In private sector it is different
More than 500 chase 120 jobs at fashion store

dvpower

hmmm wrote: »

It's unfair that someone who has worked all their life and ends up on the dole should get paid only the same basic rate as someone who has never bothered working a day in their life. Workers who lose their job should be paid a % of their former salary on the dole, reducing as time goes by so they have time to adjust. The dole for shysters should be reduced or preferably eliminated.

There used to be a pay related benefit but it was done away with a long time ago. Shame.

4.—The weekly rate of pay-related benefit payable to a person at any time shall be an amount equal to forty per cent. of the part (if any) of his reckonable weekly earnings for the relevant income tax year that exceeds £14 but does not exceed such limit as stands prescribed for the time being subject to such conditions as may be prescribed to restrict by reference to those earnings the total amount of benefit payable under the Acts to the person in respect of any week.

Automan

Count Dooku wrote: »

Because it were secure jobs in state owned company
In private sector it is different
More than 500 chase 120 jobs at fashion store

What a terrible example.
If you read the article you linked to you would see that the jobs were only announced:

"More than 120 jobs will be created with the opening of a flagship store for fashion chain New Look -- but there are already five applicants chasing each sales position on offer."

Still another 2 months to go:

"It is due to open in early November and recruitment is under way, with the company already having received more than 500 applications for the sales positions via its website."

As time gets closer to the application cutoff point there will be a lot more people applying for the job.

The original point made by Cookie_Monster suggested that nobody would apply for these jobs because every one gets 25,000 euros a year on the social:rolleyes:

theg81der

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because people feel better off on benefit than 25k a year jobs
because the country cannot afford the level its at

Name one? It doesn`t matter how many times people tell a lie it`s still a lie. No one who has joined the dole cues in the last 2/3 years would turn €25000 down NOBODY!

Just let them cut Welfare.

500,000 Angry people finding it already hard to survive through no fault of their own!

Watch suicides rise.
Watch crime rise.
Watch poverty rise.
Watch more people fail in paying their debts.
Watch more money taken out of the economy.
Watch tax revenues fall.
Watch unemployment rise.

Green shoots, turned a corner blah blah blah.

snaps

Another knock on effect as well, when your out of work, your at home. So household bills sky rocket.

Electricity bill is my next worry, another 5% levy on that now.

I wont be getting heating oil this winter as i just cannot afford it (Unless it comes down in price). Ive got a load of timber coming today from a generous man i know and is giving it too me for half the price (As ive helped him out before).

veritable

The problem for me comes down to the bank bailouts.

We should have let the banks fail. People would have lost lots of money, true. But how else can we learn? Maybe it will make people not trust banks with their money so easily. Risky behaviour would not be so common because depositors would hold the bosses to account as their money would be on the line.
Speaking of holding bankers to account. What has been happening over the past decade is this: profits have been privatised but losses are socialised. This is not acceptable. Private institutions should not be bailed out by govts. Bankers knew they could rely on the govt if times would get tough. Their cosy relationships told them there would be no penalty when risky behaviour ended in disaster.
Ireland is dealing with a banking disaster and a massive housing market crash simultaneously. to try to rectify both is killing us

dvpower

snaps wrote: »

Another knock on effect as well, when your out of work, your at home. So household bills sky rocket.

I'd have thought the opposite. More time to plan meals, cook stuff from scratch. No more paying for travel to work costs. No more buying sandwiches for lunch.

dvpower

Deleted User wrote: »

Just let them cut Welfare.

Cuts in social welfare I'd say are quite likely in the budget.

Also on the cards in the UK (where rates are lower than here already), where they seem to be targetting the long term unemployed and those on disability
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11325217

gurramok

theg81der wrote: »

Name one? It doesn`t matter how many times people tell a lie it`s still a lie. No one who has joined the dole cues in the last 2/3 years would turn €25000 down NOBODY!

Parents with kids would. The more kids you have the more money you get on welfare.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66188084&postcount=337

danbohan

snaps wrote: »

Another knock on effect as well, when your out of work, your at home. So household bills sky rocket.

Electricity bill is my next worry, another 5% levy on that now.

I wont be getting heating oil this winter as i just cannot afford it (Unless it comes down in price). Ive got a load of timber coming today from a generous man i know and is giving it too me for half the price (As ive helped him out before).

agh for goodness sake , if your that worried why dont you do something about getting a job somewhere in eu or beyond , i know 3 guys in their 60s gone to work in uk in construction sitting here feeling sorry for themselves ,

Nijmegen

I sound like a broken record when I keep dancing on this, but here I go again:

Let's have a proper system of sliding and scaling means testing, across the board!

In Ireland we have fault line positions. You get all or you get nothing. If your parents pass €1 over a limit you don't get a student grant. If you are a day under 23 you need less welfare than when you are a day over. Etc.

These lines do not take into account any realistic circumstances faced by individuals.

So how about instead we means test properly? On the dole I have seen people of 20 who really need the money, for themselves and their families, and people in their mid 20's who still live at home and spend all of their dole on complete crap, because it's pocket money rather than living wages.

I think we could both promote a fairer society and make savings in social welfare through proper means testing, as they have it in most other functioning welfare states like Germany, France, Sweden and so forth.

Here in Ireland the flat answer we get when talking about means testing is, "We can't." We're not capable? Christ. Give Germany a call, and ask them to second a few civil servants to us then.

Count Dooku

Nijmegen wrote: »

Let's have a proper system of sliding and scaling means testing, across the board!

Do you mean that public servants will have to work more? it is not possible and they will demand more wages and staff
We never will be able to afford it. We have dozens of useless overstaffed quango's but PS union never will allow to transfer lazy staff to places where hard work is required, unless it will be done voluntarily.
One in 10 getting more than fair share of benefits

ONE in 10 people investigated over dole payments as part of a social welfare probe were found to be receiving more benefits than they were entitled to.
A jobseeker's allowance fraud error survey, which looked at 1,000 random cases, revealed that 11pc of benefit recipients were getting more than they should have been.

The only choice for private sector is to minimize tax contributions, until public sector will start work efficiently
A lot of people, who doesn't deserve it will suffer, but there is no other choice to force public servants do what they suppose to do

Nijmegen

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that public servants will have to work more? it is not possible and they will demand more wages and staff
We never will be able to afford it. We have dozens of useless overstaffed quango's but PS union never will allow to transfer lazy staff to places where hard work is required, unless it will be done voluntarily.
One in 10 getting more than fair share of benefits

The only choice for private sector is to minimize tax contributions, until public sector will start work efficiently
A lot of people, who doesn't deserve it will suffer, but there is no other choice to force public servants do what they suppose to do

The one in ten is people deemed to be getting more than they should under current rules.

That doesn't mean that the remaining nine are getting their true fair share in real terms. Real terms being what they need to live on.

For example, a person on the dole living at home with parents. Why give them €196 or €150 when, per week the cost to feed them is less than €50.

Or why, when we have a kid at home getting €100 a week and the family is hard up... Don't we give that family more?

Seriously lads, we are long past needing a proper system.

I agree in part that the workers hold this back. But the politicians have no will to sell it either.

snaps

dvpower wrote: »

I'd have thought the opposite. More time to plan meals, cook stuff from scratch. No more paying for travel to work costs. No more buying sandwiches for lunch.

Heating/electric bills. tv is on more, house has to be heated more etc etc.

snaps

danbohan wrote: »

agh for goodness sake , if your that worried why dont you do something about getting a job somewhere in eu or beyond , i know 3 guys in their 60s gone to work in uk in construction sitting here feeling sorry for themselves ,

Why should i move?