Ireland delays EU deal with Israel on data transfers

Thirdfox · 03-09-2010 10:42PM #1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11176926

bbc wrote:

Irish objections have delayed an EU deal to allow the transfer to Israel of personal data on EU citizens.

The Republic of Ireland linked its move to its concerns about the use of forged Irish passports in the killing of a top Hamas militant in Dubai in January - allegedly by Israeli agents.

A European Commission official told the BBC that objections to the proposed data deal had only come from Ireland.

Dublin says Israel must now tighten up its data protection laws...

I seem to recall people on this forum stating that not enough was done in the aftermath of the forged passports scandal.

Is this the right action to take? By the Irish government's accounts we were going to be a lone voice - it's interesting to note the the British and Germans didn't have any objections when their passports were also used.

jonsnow · 04-09-2010 01:32PM

I can't understand why we are the only EU country pointing out that the Israelis obviously cant be trusted with eu citizens sensitive information.I mean thats a given.

Overheal · 06-09-2010 12:08AM

Why do they need this?

Wertz · 07-09-2010 04:21PM

Thirdfox wrote: »

- it's interesting to note the the British and Germans didn't have any objections when their passports were also used.

The way I picked it up, the EU in general hadn't looked at the specfics of Israel's data protection systems and how this deal would have left them free to handle data accumulated from text/non electronic sources (in this case passports) as they pleased. Data isn't sufficiently protected by a standalone statute body in Israel in the same way that it is across most EU countries.
I think the other countries that the EU has dealt with on this issue haven't got Israel's system, but Israel was just assumed to have the same systems as everyone else, when it hasn't...

At least Ahern did something right this year; it's probably the case that they looked hard for something in this to find fault with over the Dubai fiasco...and they found it . I'm left thinking about a even a stopped clock being right twice a day though...

Wolfe Tone · 08-09-2010 12:20AM

Good move, the right one.

demonspawn · 08-09-2010 12:27AM

There are already two threads about this. The story was first reported over on the CT forum strangely enough. There's also thread in the EU forum. Three's a charm I guess.

Edit:

Richard tea wrote: »

Nah, we would need a scary terrorist attack in Europe to justify them in taking personal data. There was talk recently of the real Ira attacking mainland England. This would be enough for people to accept their personal data been put into an open market.

Maybe we will have to vote on it ( and keep voting until its passed )

Oh, that may have been why it was on the CT forum first.

Wolfe Tone · 08-09-2010 12:28AM

demonspawn wrote: »

There are already two threads about this. The story was first reported over on the CT forum strangely enough. There's also thread in the EU forum. Three's a charm I guess.

EU forum, fair enough... CT forum though? Hardly the same type of debate we aim for here in politics.

Ren2k7 · 08-09-2010 01:38AM

Overheal wrote: »

Why do they need this?

From the BBC article:

The EU already has data adequacy agreements with several countries outside the EU, including Argentina, Canada, Switzerland and the US.

The idea is to make the EU's international partners comply with the data protection standards that prevail inside the EU, speeding up transactions.

In the absence of such an agreement, each transfer of personal data has to be checked by the relevant country's data protection authority, to ensure that it is not leaked to a third party.

I assumed the original intention behind this agreement was based purely on economic grounds like the agreements inked with the countries mentioned above. By having increased data processing between the EU and Israel it was given that this would increase trade and investment between the two.

Of course, nobody told Brussels that Israel isn't like normal countries and sensitive data like this that was proposed to be transferred would undoubtedly have made it's way into the hands of the Israel security apparatus, regardless of whether it's data protection agency is independent or not.

demonspawn · 08-09-2010 01:42AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

EU forum, fair enough... CT forum though? Hardly the same type of debate we aim for here in politics.

Well, any speculation as to what the EU intend on doing with our personal data will probably be considered CT territory, especially as Israel are involved. Or maybe just users of the CT forums will be accused of discussing CT here. Who knows? I'm not really sure what there is to discuss as there's not much info about the situation...why the EU has our personal data, what they intend on doing with it, why Israel wants it etc. etc.

All I know is I'm not gonna touch this with a 10 foot pole as long as it's in politics.

Sykes · 08-09-2010 03:07PM

jonsnow wrote: »

I can't understand why we are the only EU country pointing out that the Israelis obviously cant be trusted with eu citizens sensitive information.I mean thats a given.

Because Ireland is at the forefront of spreading Israeli hatred in Europe. That's why you're the ONLY 'country' to oppose this.

This information is company-related stuff that every other European country shares.

Perhaps the extremist state of Ireland needs to look at itself before pointing fingers.

Israelis are finally waking up to the Irish problem. For too long they have been blinded by the multi-billion dollar P.R. campaign by Irish-Americans to create this myth that the Irish are just "loveable drunken rogues always up for a laugh". Instead of the extremist, racist and terrorist supporting state that Ireland is.

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/point/entry/ireland_not_exactly_a_friend

There has always been something slightly sinister in Ireland's attitude towards Israel. As Michael Weiss wrote recently in the New Criterion, "The sons and daughters of Eire are not generally known for their fondness of Jewish statehood." Even the occasional expression of admiration for the Jewish state's achievements often seems restrained. Ireland was one of the last countries of Western Europe to establish diplomatic relations with Israel.

Yet, when I think of the Emerald Isle, I would like to be able to think mainly of the late Connor Cruise O'Brien, that grand old Irish politician, writer, historian, academic and great friend of Israel, who wrote that "a signal of anti-Jewish bigotry is when your interlocutor feverishly turns Jews into Nazis and Arabs into Jews." O'Brien wrote an extensive history of Israel and Zionism, and when he died in 2008 at 91, The Telegraph described O'Brien as "the leading Irish intellectual of his generation."

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/point/entry/ireland_not_exactly_a_friend

wes · 08-09-2010 03:59PM

Sykes wrote: »

Israelis are finally waking up to the Irish problem. For too long they have been blinded by the multi-billion dollar P.R. campaign by Irish-Americans to create this myth that the Irish are just "loveable drunken rogues always up for a laugh". Instead of the extremist, racist and terrorist supporting state that Ireland is.

Your talking a lot of nonsense. There is a genuine concern in regards to Israel after the Dubai assassination. So whether you like it or not, there is a good reason for our government to delay this deal. Pulling the whole racism card, while completely ignoring the reasons why our government want the delay is an extremely poor and to be frank over used argument at this point.

Einhard · 08-09-2010 04:12PM

Sykes wrote: »

Because Ireland is at the forefront of spreading Israeli hatred in Europe. That's why you're the ONLY 'country' to oppose this.

No, I think it's because Israel are widely considered to have fabricated Irish passports to carry out an assassination.

I don't think anyone could call me anti-Israeli having read my posts on the issue here, and I have no problem with this move by Ireland. If people like you would learn to tone down the hysteria, the hyperbole and the melodrama, and realise that not every criticsim of israel is couched in hatred and anti-semitism, then maybe the moderate Israeli voices might have a better chance of being heard.

Sykes · 08-09-2010 05:34PM

Einhard wrote: »

No, I think it's because Israel are widely considered to have fabricated Irish passports to carry out an assassination.

"Widely-believed" is not the same as having proof.

For argument's sake if it was Israel, then they would be doing something that most nations engage in.

Assassinations are part of anti-terrorism apparatus used by all countries facing a terrorist threat.

I don't think anyone could call me anti-Israeli having read my posts on the issue here, and I have no problem with this move by Ireland. If people like you would learn to tone down the hysteria, the hyperbole and the melodrama, and realise that not every criticsim of israel is couched in hatred and anti-semitism, then maybe the moderate Israeli voices might have a better chance of being heard.

I find it laughable that an Irishman from a 'country' whose anti-Israel rhetoric makes Hezbollah blush, accuses me of being "hysterical".

Maybe you should listen to the words coming out of your fellow countrymen's mouths regarding Israel and Jews, before accusing supporters of Israel of being "hysterical".

The idea that the Irish are turning on Israel because of the passport incident is ludicrous. Your lot were at the forefront of European hatred towards Israel long before that. Your twisted logic that the 'palestinian' issue is a mirror of your bitter little conflict, is the reason why your country is so hostile.

Israel need not worry though. It's not like Ireland can fight or win any wars.

karma_ · 08-09-2010 05:42PM

Sykes wrote: »

"Widely-believed" is not the same as having proof.

For argument's sake if it was Israel, then they would be doing something that most nations engage in.

Assassinations are part of anti-terrorism apparatus used by all countries facing a terrorist threat.

I find it laughable that an Irishman from a 'country' whose anti-Israel rhetoric makes Hezbollah blush, accuses me of being "hysterical".

Maybe you should listen to the words coming out of your fellow countrymen's mouths regarding Israel and Jews, before accusing supporters of Israel of being "hysterical".

The idea that the Irish are turning on Israel because of the passport incident is ludicrous. Your lot were at the forefront of European hatred towards Israel long before that. Your twisted logic that the 'palestinian' issue is a mirror of your bitter little conflict, is the reason why your country is so hostile.

Israel need not worry though. It's not like Ireland can fight or win any wars.

Do you actually believe any of your own nonsense?

eamo12 · 08-09-2010 05:51PM

Again, we Irish pride ourselves on our pathological hatred of Israel which again is our only foreign policy where we actually act aggressively towards another nation. This,of course, endears us to muslim nations and liberal elites in the US and Europe.

I'm sure in order to show consistency, Michael Martin will bring forward proposals act against Russia? Thought not - they wouldn't dare.

Nodin · 08-09-2010 05:52PM

Sykes wrote: »

Because Ireland is at the forefront of spreading Israeli hatred in Europe. That's why you're the ONLY 'country' to oppose this.

Why is country in quotations?

demonspawn · 08-09-2010 05:57PM

eamo12 wrote: »

Again, we Irish pride ourselves on our pathological hatred of Israel which again is our only foreign policy where we actually act aggressively towards another nation. This,of course, endears us to muslim nations and liberal elites in the US and Europe.

I'm sure in order to show consistency, Michael Martin will bring forward proposals act against Russia? Thought not - they wouldn't dare.

Good point. Russia also has a bad habit of going into other countries and assassinating suspected "terrorists" and political figures. Human rights? Meh, who needs 'em?

Jumpy · 08-09-2010 05:58PM

Nodin wrote: »

Why is country in quotations?

Its in multiple forums he has posted on. I dont believe he thinks Ireland is a worthwhile country.
Strange that he only ever gets involved in discussions about Israel though isnt it.

eamo12 · 08-09-2010 06:11PM

demonspawn wrote: »

Good point. Russia also has a bad habit of going into other countries and assassinating suspected "terrorists" and political figures. Human rights? Meh, who needs 'em?

I'll guess your being sarcastic in which point you should educate yourself on the murders committed by Russia, epically against journalists who are are hostile to Putin. I'd love to see an Irish registered flotilla heading to Russia or to the Kurds in Turkey, or to Iran - would make the aid flotilla to Israel look like a Sunday picnic.

dermo88 · 08-09-2010 06:19PM

Next time if I ever inflict the ordeal of transit through Dubai (not that I ever intend transitting in the crossroads of the TURD world), I plan wearing a nice Israeli flag t-shirt, with "I love Mossad" in Arabic on it. I was in Phuket when the massacres happened, and met some Israeli lads. Had a good laugh.....heck, use my passport next time if you want. Mazeltov.

One less Hamas scum on the earth. I am happy. Their little terrorist statelet is the reason behind most of the nonsense on airlines these days, and the Arab countries, with more money, power and ability use it as a convenient scapegoat to attack Israel, and do nothing to assist the Palestinian people. Thats the way they want it, starting with the child molesting hypocritical gambling whiskey guzzling bisexual closet cases of the House of Saud. The day they hang from ropes in Riyadh, is the day the Muslim world gets freed.

Israel is not perfect, but in terms of human rights, respect for women, tolerance, its the best in the Middle East.

demonspawn · 08-09-2010 06:19PM

eamo12 wrote: »

I'll guess your being sarcastic in which point you should educate yourself on the murders committed by Russia, epically against journalists who are are hostile to Putin. I'd love to see an Irish registered flotilla heading to Russia or to the Kurds in Turkey, or to Iran - would make the aid flotilla to Israel look like a Sunday picnic.

What on Earth could possibly make the cold-blooded murder of at least nine human rights workers look like a picnic?

You're not gonna make too many friends in this forum with atrocious comments like that.

eamo12 · 08-09-2010 06:23PM

demonspawn wrote: »

What on Earth could possibly make the cold-blooded murder of at least nine human rights workers look like a picnic?

You're not gonna make too many friends in this forum with atrocious comments like that.

The video proves it was hardly 'cold blooded' was it?

On the other point about why someone put Ireland in quotes - it could be argued that this is apt, given the current state we're in.

demonspawn · 08-09-2010 06:24PM

dermo88 wrote: »

Don't worry, I am Irish, and I despise Hamas. Next time I transit through Dubai, I intend wearing a nice Israeli flag t-shirt, with "I love Mossad" in Arabic on it.

One less Hamas scum on the earth. I am happy. Their little terrorist statelet is the reason behind half the nonsense on airlines these days. I only wish it was turned to glass and glowed for 1,000 years.

Israel is not perfect, but in terms of human rights, respect for women, tolerance, its probably the best in the Middle East.

Jordan has the lowest risk of human rights violations in the Middle East and North Africa and one of the lowest in the world in a study performed by Maplecroft which used Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports to compile its human rights monitoring system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Jordan

Have a guess at what the ethnic majority is in Jordan.

I'll give you a hint, they're Palestinian. :rolleyes:

demonspawn · 08-09-2010 06:29PM

eamo12 wrote: »

The video proves it was hardly 'cold blooded' was it?

Which video is that? Is there a video I missed of human rights workers on the boats wearing balaclavas and carrying sub-machine guns?

On the other point about why someone put Ireland in quotes - it could be argued that this is apt, given the current state we're in.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Nodin · 08-09-2010 06:38PM

dermo88 wrote: »

Next time if I ever inflict the ordeal of transit through Dubai (not that I ever intend transitting in the crossroads of the TURD world), I plan wearing a nice Israeli flag t-shirt, with "I love Mossad" in Arabic on it. I was in Phuket when the massacres happened, and met some Israeli lads. Had a good laugh.....heck, use my passport next time if you want. Mazeltov.

One less Hamas scum on the earth. I am happy. Their little terrorist statelet is the reason behind most of the nonsense on airlines these days, and the Arab countries, with more money, power and ability use it as a convenient scapegoat to attack Israel, and do nothing to assist the Palestinian people. Thats the way they want it, starting with the child molesting hypocritical gambling whiskey guzzling bisexual closet cases of the House of Saud. The day they hang from ropes in Riyadh, is the day the Muslim world gets freed.

Israel is not perfect, but in terms of human rights, respect for women, tolerance, its the best in the Middle East.

...fairly racist...wrong re Hamas and airport security......

philologos · 08-09-2010 06:42PM

I'm broadly in support of the existence of Israel, but I think the Government is spot on on this one. If information is to be given there must be assurances on:
1) What Israel intends to use the data for?
2) That Mossad or Shin Bet will not have access to such data to use in operations.
3) What data is being offered to begin with?
We have the right to demand that information about our citizens isn't abused as it has been in the future, and Israel does have convincing to do in that respect.

eamo12 · 08-09-2010 06:56PM

I'm broadly in support of the existence of Russia, but I think the Government is spot on on this one. If information is to be given there must be assurances on:
1) What Russia intends to use the data for?
2) That Putin or KGB will not have access to such data to use in operations.
3) What data is being offered to begin with?
We have the right to demand that information about our citizens isn't abused as it has been in the future, and Russia does have convincing to do in that respect.

Hmmmm... doubt we'll ever see this memo in the dept. of foreign affairs.

Nodin · 08-09-2010 06:57PM

eamo12 wrote: »

I'm broadly in support of the existence of Russia, but I think the Government is spot on on this one. If information is to be given there must be assurances on:
1) What Russia intends to use the data for?
2) That Putin or KGB will not have access to such data to use in operations.
3) What data is being offered to begin with?
We have the right to demand that information about our citizens isn't abused as it has been in the future, and Russia does have convincing to do in that respect.

Theres no question of Russia getting access to that kind of information....

philologos · 08-09-2010 07:06PM

eamo12: With Israel having used faked Irish passports in a Mossad operation in Dubai in the last year, I think my questions are more than reasonable before permitting more liberties to Israel in respect to EU data.

The idea of data being logged so extensively is something that I personally amn't all that comfortable with to begin with, but what to do with data we already have logged is an important issue to get right.

Sykes · 08-09-2010 10:37PM

Nodin wrote: »

Why is country in quotations?

I don't recognise your 'country'.

Sykes · 08-09-2010 10:47PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm broadly in support of the existence of Israel,

This is typical of left wing Europeans and increasingly of the Irish terrorist supporting, racist entity.

Who are you exactly to 'broadly' support the existence of a country? who are you to sit there in some Nationalist Catholic stronghold in Ireland thousands of miles away from a country which has NOTHING to do with you - and debate about whether it should exist or not.

Who are YOU as an Irishman in a non-entity country with little world significance, to sit there and decide the fate of 7million people. Whether YOU and the rest of your Irish gang will allow the Jews to have a state.

No other country on earth has to listen to 'people' like you from 'countries' like Ireland debating whether they should be allowed to live or not. Debating whether they can have a country. Debating which bits they should and shouldn't live in.

No one sits and questions France's existence or that of the artificial Lebanon.

I have some advice for you and your fellow Israel/Jew obsessed Irish nationalists. Why don't you focus on your financially and morally bankrupt 'country'? why don't you focus on your backwards 'country' that's recently brought in blasphemy laws in complete contradiction to western development away from such medieval laws. Why don't you focus on your terrorist supporting nutcases, your massive racist problem, your massive noncing problem and treatment of women.

There's a lot in Ireland that needs fixing. So instead of sitting there obsessing over a country thousands of miles away which has sod all to do with you, why don't you take care of your own wretched 'country' that's only afloat due to EU subsidy.

Ireland delays EU deal with Israel on data transfers

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