Ireland delays EU deal with Israel on data transfers

Thirdfox

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11176926

bbc wrote:

Irish objections have delayed an EU deal to allow the transfer to Israel of personal data on EU citizens.

The Republic of Ireland linked its move to its concerns about the use of forged Irish passports in the killing of a top Hamas militant in Dubai in January - allegedly by Israeli agents.

A European Commission official told the BBC that objections to the proposed data deal had only come from Ireland.

Dublin says Israel must now tighten up its data protection laws...

I seem to recall people on this forum stating that not enough was done in the aftermath of the forged passports scandal.

Is this the right action to take? By the Irish government's accounts we were going to be a lone voice - it's interesting to note the the British and Germans didn't have any objections when their passports were also used.

jonsnow

I can't understand why we are the only EU country pointing out that the Israelis obviously cant be trusted with eu citizens sensitive information.I mean thats a given.

Overheal

Why do they need this?

Wertz

Thirdfox wrote: »

- it's interesting to note the the British and Germans didn't have any objections when their passports were also used.

The way I picked it up, the EU in general hadn't looked at the specfics of Israel's data protection systems and how this deal would have left them free to handle data accumulated from text/non electronic sources (in this case passports) as they pleased. Data isn't sufficiently protected by a standalone statute body in Israel in the same way that it is across most EU countries.
I think the other countries that the EU has dealt with on this issue haven't got Israel's system, but Israel was just assumed to have the same systems as everyone else, when it hasn't...

At least Ahern did something right this year; it's probably the case that they looked hard for something in this to find fault with over the Dubai fiasco...and they found it . I'm left thinking about a even a stopped clock being right twice a day though...

Wolfe Tone

Good move, the right one.

demonspawn

There are already two threads about this. The story was first reported over on the CT forum strangely enough. There's also thread in the EU forum. Three's a charm I guess.

Edit:

Richard tea wrote: »

Nah, we would need a scary terrorist attack in Europe to justify them in taking personal data. There was talk recently of the real Ira attacking mainland England. This would be enough for people to accept their personal data been put into an open market.

Maybe we will have to vote on it ( and keep voting until its passed )

Oh, that may have been why it was on the CT forum first.

Wolfe Tone

demonspawn wrote: »

There are already two threads about this. The story was first reported over on the CT forum strangely enough. There's also thread in the EU forum. Three's a charm I guess.

EU forum, fair enough... CT forum though? Hardly the same type of debate we aim for here in politics.

Ren2k7

Overheal wrote: »

Why do they need this?

From the BBC article:

The EU already has data adequacy agreements with several countries outside the EU, including Argentina, Canada, Switzerland and the US.

The idea is to make the EU's international partners comply with the data protection standards that prevail inside the EU, speeding up transactions.

In the absence of such an agreement, each transfer of personal data has to be checked by the relevant country's data protection authority, to ensure that it is not leaked to a third party.

I assumed the original intention behind this agreement was based purely on economic grounds like the agreements inked with the countries mentioned above. By having increased data processing between the EU and Israel it was given that this would increase trade and investment between the two.

Of course, nobody told Brussels that Israel isn't like normal countries and sensitive data like this that was proposed to be transferred would undoubtedly have made it's way into the hands of the Israel security apparatus, regardless of whether it's data protection agency is independent or not.

demonspawn

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

EU forum, fair enough... CT forum though? Hardly the same type of debate we aim for here in politics.

Well, any speculation as to what the EU intend on doing with our personal data will probably be considered CT territory, especially as Israel are involved. Or maybe just users of the CT forums will be accused of discussing CT here. Who knows? I'm not really sure what there is to discuss as there's not much info about the situation...why the EU has our personal data, what they intend on doing with it, why Israel wants it etc. etc.

All I know is I'm not gonna touch this with a 10 foot pole as long as it's in politics.

Sykes

jonsnow wrote: »

I can't understand why we are the only EU country pointing out that the Israelis obviously cant be trusted with eu citizens sensitive information.I mean thats a given.

Because Ireland is at the forefront of spreading Israeli hatred in Europe. That's why you're the ONLY 'country' to oppose this.

This information is company-related stuff that every other European country shares.

Perhaps the extremist state of Ireland needs to look at itself before pointing fingers.

Israelis are finally waking up to the Irish problem. For too long they have been blinded by the multi-billion dollar P.R. campaign by Irish-Americans to create this myth that the Irish are just "loveable drunken rogues always up for a laugh". Instead of the extremist, racist and terrorist supporting state that Ireland is.

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/point/entry/ireland_not_exactly_a_friend

There has always been something slightly sinister in Ireland's attitude towards Israel. As Michael Weiss wrote recently in the New Criterion, "The sons and daughters of Eire are not generally known for their fondness of Jewish statehood." Even the occasional expression of admiration for the Jewish state's achievements often seems restrained. Ireland was one of the last countries of Western Europe to establish diplomatic relations with Israel.

Yet, when I think of the Emerald Isle, I would like to be able to think mainly of the late Connor Cruise O'Brien, that grand old Irish politician, writer, historian, academic and great friend of Israel, who wrote that "a signal of anti-Jewish bigotry is when your interlocutor feverishly turns Jews into Nazis and Arabs into Jews." O'Brien wrote an extensive history of Israel and Zionism, and when he died in 2008 at 91, The Telegraph described O'Brien as "the leading Irish intellectual of his generation."

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/point/entry/ireland_not_exactly_a_friend

wes

Sykes wrote: »

Israelis are finally waking up to the Irish problem. For too long they have been blinded by the multi-billion dollar P.R. campaign by Irish-Americans to create this myth that the Irish are just "loveable drunken rogues always up for a laugh". Instead of the extremist, racist and terrorist supporting state that Ireland is.

Your talking a lot of nonsense. There is a genuine concern in regards to Israel after the Dubai assassination. So whether you like it or not, there is a good reason for our government to delay this deal. Pulling the whole racism card, while completely ignoring the reasons why our government want the delay is an extremely poor and to be frank over used argument at this point.

Einhard

Sykes wrote: »

Because Ireland is at the forefront of spreading Israeli hatred in Europe. That's why you're the ONLY 'country' to oppose this.

No, I think it's because Israel are widely considered to have fabricated Irish passports to carry out an assassination.

I don't think anyone could call me anti-Israeli having read my posts on the issue here, and I have no problem with this move by Ireland. If people like you would learn to tone down the hysteria, the hyperbole and the melodrama, and realise that not every criticsim of israel is couched in hatred and anti-semitism, then maybe the moderate Israeli voices might have a better chance of being heard.

Sykes

Einhard wrote: »

No, I think it's because Israel are widely considered to have fabricated Irish passports to carry out an assassination.

"Widely-believed" is not the same as having proof.

For argument's sake if it was Israel, then they would be doing something that most nations engage in.

Assassinations are part of anti-terrorism apparatus used by all countries facing a terrorist threat.

I don't think anyone could call me anti-Israeli having read my posts on the issue here, and I have no problem with this move by Ireland. If people like you would learn to tone down the hysteria, the hyperbole and the melodrama, and realise that not every criticsim of israel is couched in hatred and anti-semitism, then maybe the moderate Israeli voices might have a better chance of being heard.

I find it laughable that an Irishman from a 'country' whose anti-Israel rhetoric makes Hezbollah blush, accuses me of being "hysterical".

Maybe you should listen to the words coming out of your fellow countrymen's mouths regarding Israel and Jews, before accusing supporters of Israel of being "hysterical".

The idea that the Irish are turning on Israel because of the passport incident is ludicrous. Your lot were at the forefront of European hatred towards Israel long before that. Your twisted logic that the 'palestinian' issue is a mirror of your bitter little conflict, is the reason why your country is so hostile.

Israel need not worry though. It's not like Ireland can fight or win any wars.

karma_

Sykes wrote: »

"Widely-believed" is not the same as having proof.

For argument's sake if it was Israel, then they would be doing something that most nations engage in.

Assassinations are part of anti-terrorism apparatus used by all countries facing a terrorist threat.


I find it laughable that an Irishman from a 'country' whose anti-Israel rhetoric makes Hezbollah blush, accuses me of being "hysterical".

Maybe you should listen to the words coming out of your fellow countrymen's mouths regarding Israel and Jews, before accusing supporters of Israel of being "hysterical".

The idea that the Irish are turning on Israel because of the passport incident is ludicrous. Your lot were at the forefront of European hatred towards Israel long before that. Your twisted logic that the 'palestinian' issue is a mirror of your bitter little conflict, is the reason why your country is so hostile.

Israel need not worry though. It's not like Ireland can fight or win any wars.

Do you actually believe any of your own nonsense?

eamo12

Again, we Irish pride ourselves on our pathological hatred of Israel which again is our only foreign policy where we actually act aggressively towards another nation. This,of course, endears us to muslim nations and liberal elites in the US and Europe.

I'm sure in order to show consistency, Michael Martin will bring forward proposals act against Russia? Thought not - they wouldn't dare.

Nodin

Sykes wrote: »

Because Ireland is at the forefront of spreading Israeli hatred in Europe. That's why you're the ONLY 'country' to oppose this.

Why is country in quotations?

demonspawn

eamo12 wrote: »

Again, we Irish pride ourselves on our pathological hatred of Israel which again is our only foreign policy where we actually act aggressively towards another nation. This,of course, endears us to muslim nations and liberal elites in the US and Europe.

I'm sure in order to show consistency, Michael Martin will bring forward proposals act against Russia? Thought not - they wouldn't dare.

Good point. Russia also has a bad habit of going into other countries and assassinating suspected "terrorists" and political figures. Human rights? Meh, who needs 'em?

Jumpy

Nodin wrote: »

Why is country in quotations?

Its in multiple forums he has posted on. I dont believe he thinks Ireland is a worthwhile country.
Strange that he only ever gets involved in discussions about Israel though isnt it.

eamo12

demonspawn wrote: »

Good point. Russia also has a bad habit of going into other countries and assassinating suspected "terrorists" and political figures. Human rights? Meh, who needs 'em?

I'll guess your being sarcastic in which point you should educate yourself on the murders committed by Russia, epically against journalists who are are hostile to Putin. I'd love to see an Irish registered flotilla heading to Russia or to the Kurds in Turkey, or to Iran - would make the aid flotilla to Israel look like a Sunday picnic.

dermo88

Next time if I ever inflict the ordeal of transit through Dubai (not that I ever intend transitting in the crossroads of the TURD world), I plan wearing a nice Israeli flag t-shirt, with "I love Mossad" in Arabic on it. I was in Phuket when the massacres happened, and met some Israeli lads. Had a good laugh.....heck, use my passport next time if you want. Mazeltov.

One less Hamas scum on the earth. I am happy. Their little terrorist statelet is the reason behind most of the nonsense on airlines these days, and the Arab countries, with more money, power and ability use it as a convenient scapegoat to attack Israel, and do nothing to assist the Palestinian people. Thats the way they want it, starting with the child molesting hypocritical gambling whiskey guzzling bisexual closet cases of the House of Saud. The day they hang from ropes in Riyadh, is the day the Muslim world gets freed.

Israel is not perfect, but in terms of human rights, respect for women, tolerance, its the best in the Middle East.

demonspawn

eamo12 wrote: »

I'll guess your being sarcastic in which point you should educate yourself on the murders committed by Russia, epically against journalists who are are hostile to Putin. I'd love to see an Irish registered flotilla heading to Russia or to the Kurds in Turkey, or to Iran - would make the aid flotilla to Israel look like a Sunday picnic.

What on Earth could possibly make the cold-blooded murder of at least nine human rights workers look like a picnic?

You're not gonna make too many friends in this forum with atrocious comments like that.

eamo12

demonspawn wrote: »

What on Earth could possibly make the cold-blooded murder of at least nine human rights workers look like a picnic?

You're not gonna make too many friends in this forum with atrocious comments like that.

The video proves it was hardly 'cold blooded' was it?

On the other point about why someone put Ireland in quotes - it could be argued that this is apt, given the current state we're in.

demonspawn

dermo88 wrote: »

Don't worry, I am Irish, and I despise Hamas. Next time I transit through Dubai, I intend wearing a nice Israeli flag t-shirt, with "I love Mossad" in Arabic on it.

One less Hamas scum on the earth. I am happy. Their little terrorist statelet is the reason behind half the nonsense on airlines these days. I only wish it was turned to glass and glowed for 1,000 years.

Israel is not perfect, but in terms of human rights, respect for women, tolerance, its probably the best in the Middle East.

Jordan has the lowest risk of human rights violations in the Middle East and North Africa and one of the lowest in the world in a study performed by Maplecroft which used Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports to compile its human rights monitoring system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Jordan

Have a guess at what the ethnic majority is in Jordan.

I'll give you a hint, they're Palestinian. :rolleyes:

demonspawn

eamo12 wrote: »

The video proves it was hardly 'cold blooded' was it?

Which video is that? Is there a video I missed of human rights workers on the boats wearing balaclavas and carrying sub-machine guns?

On the other point about why someone put Ireland in quotes - it could be argued that this is apt, given the current state we're in.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Nodin

dermo88 wrote: »

Next time if I ever inflict the ordeal of transit through Dubai (not that I ever intend transitting in the crossroads of the TURD world), I plan wearing a nice Israeli flag t-shirt, with "I love Mossad" in Arabic on it. I was in Phuket when the massacres happened, and met some Israeli lads. Had a good laugh.....heck, use my passport next time if you want. Mazeltov.

One less Hamas scum on the earth. I am happy. Their little terrorist statelet is the reason behind most of the nonsense on airlines these days, and the Arab countries, with more money, power and ability use it as a convenient scapegoat to attack Israel, and do nothing to assist the Palestinian people. Thats the way they want it, starting with the child molesting hypocritical gambling whiskey guzzling bisexual closet cases of the House of Saud. The day they hang from ropes in Riyadh, is the day the Muslim world gets freed.

Israel is not perfect, but in terms of human rights, respect for women, tolerance, its the best in the Middle East.

...fairly racist...wrong re Hamas and airport security......

philologos

I'm broadly in support of the existence of Israel, but I think the Government is spot on on this one. If information is to be given there must be assurances on:
1) What Israel intends to use the data for?
2) That Mossad or Shin Bet will not have access to such data to use in operations.
3) What data is being offered to begin with?
We have the right to demand that information about our citizens isn't abused as it has been in the future, and Israel does have convincing to do in that respect.

eamo12

I'm broadly in support of the existence of Russia, but I think the Government is spot on on this one. If information is to be given there must be assurances on:
1) What Russia intends to use the data for?
2) That Putin or KGB will not have access to such data to use in operations.
3) What data is being offered to begin with?
We have the right to demand that information about our citizens isn't abused as it has been in the future, and Russia does have convincing to do in that respect.


Hmmmm... doubt we'll ever see this memo in the dept. of foreign affairs.

Nodin

eamo12 wrote: »

I'm broadly in support of the existence of Russia, but I think the Government is spot on on this one. If information is to be given there must be assurances on:
1) What Russia intends to use the data for?
2) That Putin or KGB will not have access to such data to use in operations.
3) What data is being offered to begin with?
We have the right to demand that information about our citizens isn't abused as it has been in the future, and Russia does have convincing to do in that respect.

Theres no question of Russia getting access to that kind of information....

philologos

eamo12: With Israel having used faked Irish passports in a Mossad operation in Dubai in the last year, I think my questions are more than reasonable before permitting more liberties to Israel in respect to EU data.

The idea of data being logged so extensively is something that I personally amn't all that comfortable with to begin with, but what to do with data we already have logged is an important issue to get right.

Sykes

Nodin wrote: »

Why is country in quotations?

I don't recognise your 'country'.

Sykes

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm broadly in support of the existence of Israel,

This is typical of left wing Europeans and increasingly of the Irish terrorist supporting, racist entity.

Who are you exactly to 'broadly' support the existence of a country? who are you to sit there in some Nationalist Catholic stronghold in Ireland thousands of miles away from a country which has NOTHING to do with you - and debate about whether it should exist or not.

Who are YOU as an Irishman in a non-entity country with little world significance, to sit there and decide the fate of 7million people. Whether YOU and the rest of your Irish gang will allow the Jews to have a state.

No other country on earth has to listen to 'people' like you from 'countries' like Ireland debating whether they should be allowed to live or not. Debating whether they can have a country. Debating which bits they should and shouldn't live in.

No one sits and questions France's existence or that of the artificial Lebanon.

I have some advice for you and your fellow Israel/Jew obsessed Irish nationalists. Why don't you focus on your financially and morally bankrupt 'country'? why don't you focus on your backwards 'country' that's recently brought in blasphemy laws in complete contradiction to western development away from such medieval laws. Why don't you focus on your terrorist supporting nutcases, your massive racist problem, your massive noncing problem and treatment of women.

There's a lot in Ireland that needs fixing. So instead of sitting there obsessing over a country thousands of miles away which has sod all to do with you, why don't you take care of your own wretched 'country' that's only afloat due to EU subsidy.

karma_

Sykes wrote: »

This is typical of left wing Europeans and increasingly of the Irish terrorist supporting, racist entity.

Who are you exactly to 'broadly' support the existence of a country? who are you to sit there in some Nationalist Catholic stronghold in Ireland thousands of miles away from a country which has NOTHING to do with you - and debate about whether it should exist or not.

Who are YOU as an Irishman in a non-entity country with little world significance, to sit there and decide the fate of 7million people. Whether YOU and the rest of your Irish gang will allow the Jews to have a state.

No other country on earth has to listen to 'people' like you from 'countries' like Ireland debating whether they should be allowed to live or not. Debating whether they can have a country. Debating which bits they should and shouldn't live in.

No one sits and questions France's existence or that of the artificial Lebanon.

I have some advice for you and your fellow Israel/Jew obsessed Irish nationalists. Why don't you focus on your financially and morally bankrupt 'country'? why don't you focus on your backwards 'country' that's recently brought in blasphemy laws in complete contradiction to western development away from such medieval laws. Why don't you focus on your terrorist supporting nutcases, your massive racist problem, your massive noncing problem and treatment of women.

There's a lot in Ireland that needs fixing. So instead of sitting there obsessing over a country thousands of miles away which has sod all to do with you, why don't you take care of your own wretched 'country' that's only afloat due to EU subsidy.

LOL

philologos

Sykes wrote: »

This is typical of left wing Europeans and increasingly of the Irish terrorist supporting, racist entity.

OK. It appears I have some splainin' to do. :pac:

Sykes wrote: »

Who are you exactly to 'broadly' support the existence of a country? who are you to sit there in some Nationalist Catholic stronghold in Ireland thousands of miles away from a country which has NOTHING to do with you - and debate about whether it should exist or not.

I mean is, I think that Israel in its current character is for the most part a freedom loving State. I feel that the Jewish people have the right to live there in freedom from hostile neighbours. Indeed, I believe they also have the moral responsibility to secure the rights of the Palestinian and Israeli Arab population living within its borders. This is what I mean by broadly supporting Israel's continued right of existence. Effectively what I am saying is that I for the most part hold a favourable view towards Israel. I do allow room for criticism however.

Sykes wrote: »

Who are YOU as an Irishman in a non-entity country with little world significance, to sit there and decide the fate of 7million people. Whether YOU and the rest of your Irish gang will allow the Jews to have a state.

You've misinterpreted what I've said. By "continued right to exist" I mean generally the right to defend itself from attack.

Sykes wrote: »

No other country on earth has to listen to 'people' like you from 'countries' like Ireland debating whether they should be allowed to live or not. Debating whether they can have a country. Debating which bits they should and shouldn't live in.

This is a discussion forum.

Sykes wrote: »

No one sits and questions France's existence or that of the artificial Lebanon.

I don't question the existence of Israel either clearly for my post.

Sykes wrote: »

I have some advice for you and your fellow Israel/Jew obsessed Irish nationalists. Why don't you focus on your financially and morally bankrupt 'country'? why don't you focus on your backwards 'country' that's recently brought in blasphemy laws in complete contradiction to western development away from such medieval laws. Why don't you focus on your terrorist supporting nutcases, your massive racist problem, your massive noncing problem and treatment of women.

1. I'm not a nationalist in that I'm not strongly patriotic.
2. The only comment I've made is that I am actually a broad supporter of Israel's continued existence which is hardly anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist even.
3. I'm not supportive of the Irish blasphemy law.
4. I'm not a racist.
5. I'm not supportive of any mistreatment of women.
6. I think that Israel is the freest nation in the Middle East in respect to civil liberties.
7. That said, Israel needs to clear up human rights issues in respect to the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

As for terrorist supporting nutcases. Personally, I think that Hamas are a threat that should have never been allowed to seize control of the Gaza Strip. I would rather that groups such as Islamic Jihad, Hamas, would be out of the picture. Part of getting them out of the picture is also by social change in respect to how Israel deals with the average Palestinian, as well as military / police operations in order to lessen the influence of Hamas. This won't be dealt with entirely by such operations however. The Palestinian people must not be incentivised to join such groups to begin with.

Sykes wrote: »

There's a lot in Ireland that needs fixing. So instead of sitting there obsessing over a country thousands of miles away which has sod all to do with you, why don't you take care of your own wretched 'country' that's only afloat due to EU subsidy.

What are you talking about?

You've clearly not read any of my posts on the State of Israel, you've just gone and totally ignored my stance on Israel.

All I've said is that we shouldn't be giving private information about Irish citizens to Israel unless we can be assured that they won't be abused by Israeli secret services for operations both within Israel and outside of Israel (Mossad & Shin Bet)

Edit: I support amicable relations between Ireland and Israel in the future in respect to trade and in respect to foreign policy provided that Israel are willing to play with other nations equally in turn.

Ren2k7

eamo12 wrote: »

I'm broadly in support of the existence of Russia, but I think the Government is spot on on this one. If information is to be given there must be assurances on:
1) What Russia intends to use the data for?
2) That Putin or KGB will not have access to such data to use in operations.
3) What data is being offered to begin with?
We have the right to demand that information about our citizens isn't abused as it has been in the future, and Russia does have convincing to do in that respect.


Hmmmm... doubt we'll ever see this memo in the dept. of foreign affairs.

eamo12, the reason why Ireland is pursuing this matter is because Israel used faked Irish passports in the murder of another person in a third country, the UAE. If it had been any other country that had carried out an assassination using Irish passports then the Irish state would have pursued the matter with equal vigour, and yes if it were Russia that had carried out this crime then Ireland would have dealt with Russia in much the same fashion.

BTW, if Ireland hated Israel so much then why is bilateral relations between the two countries generally cordial. Here is a piece from the Israeli Ministry of Industry, Trade and Labor with regards to Israel - Ireland Trade Relations:

The Ireland-Israel commercial relationship dates back to the foundation of the State of Israel. In terms of bilateral trade, growth has been steadily increasing as the two economies have developed.

In 1988 Israel exports to Ireland were valued at 23.5 million USD, while Irish exports to Israel were valued at 32.8 million USD. A decade later, Israeli exports to Ireland amounted to 196 million USD, while Irish exports amount to 230 Million USD. Today Irish exports are 344 million and Israeli exports are approaching 200 million USD.

The bulk of Israel's exports to Ireland are mainly in the category of machinery and electronics, rubber and plastics, chemicals, textiles and optical/medical and related equipment. Other exports include gems and fruit and vegetables.

Irish exports to Israel are similar and seem to reflect the overall trade relationship in higher value goods. Irish exports are mainly in the sectors of machinery and electronics, chemicals, textiles and/or related articles, foodstuffs & beverages and optical/medical and related equipment.

While Ireland and Israel are considered to be high-tech economies, the policies, and path to achieving their respective successes are quite different. Many bilateral visits by officials from Ireland and Israel have taken place in order to study aspects of economic policy and growth in the counterpart's country. These visits often involved Ministers, officials across a broad spectrum of ministries, Chief scientists, academics and business / related journalists. Several trade delegations were also organized.

Broadly speaking - the key to Ireland's economic success is not one factor but a combination of many, (some of which are often overlooked) such as; long term planning in the area of education, growing and young workforce, the ability to attract and retain foreign investment and a low corporate tax regime. Other factors include Ireland's stability, geographical location (particularly in relation to the US), and the fact that Ireland is an English speaking country and is in a favorable time zone vis-à-vis the USA.

Certain economic agreements support Israel's trade relationship with Ireland - primarily the Free Trade Agreement between Israel and the EU (and USA) and a bilateral agreement on Double taxation was concluded in 1995 between the two states, which further facilitated the economic affairs between the countries. As the level of tourism grew an air transport agreement was drafted. The agreement has yet to be signed due to commercial considerations of certain carriers.

Another agreement that exists between the countries and which reflects another element of their hi-tech focus is the 1999 Memorandum of Understanding on Industrial Research and Development Cooperation. This agreement was borne out of the belief that Israel and Ireland, two countries that effectively moved from agricultural bases to become hi-tech economies - could benefit from collaboration. While some took the view that Israel and Ireland were competitors, primarily due to their respective endeavors to attract foreign high-tech companies - such as Intel and IBM, others took the view that there was much to be gained from collaboration and joint ventures. Indeed it is true to say that as opposed to simply exporting to each others relatively small populations, both countries have similar and much larger export markets.

The view that Ireland and Israel should collaborate and excel in at their respective strengths (it is usually suggested that Israel excels in R&D and Ireland in marketing and market penetration) was reinforced by the fact that there was activity between Irish and Israeli partners under the EU framework and other programs.

Tourism between Ireland and Israel is an area that has been relatively stable over the years but which has also seen dramatic fluctuations. In fact according to Ha'aretz newspaper, Ireland was the most popular destination for Israeli holidaymakers in 2000. In 2004, a peak number of Irish nationals visited Israel to attend the Ireland-Israel World cup qualifying match. While there is room to grow the level of bilateral tourism, there are seasonal direct flights between the two countries.

There are also increasing numbers of Israeli nationals coming to Ireland to work in hitch as well as Irish companies working in Israel.

A number of Israeli companies have established themselves in Ireland (in the fields of Software & Communications and Medical devices) in recent years and some Irish companies have also set up in Israel (in the fields of Pharma and software). In addition, there has been some investment by Irish companies in Israeli companies and vice versa - these have been mainly in the construction and hospitality sectors.

Source: http://www.moital.gov.il/NR/exeres/11E76928-6E01-4067-A49A-91172862977C.htm

To the few on this forum suggesting that Ireland is an enemy of Israel is absurd. Israel has the right to exist peacefully but when they go off and kill foreign nationals using Irish documentation then Ireland has the right to be critical and demand answers for this.

wes

Sykes wrote: »

Who are you exactly to 'broadly' support the existence of a country? who are you to sit there in some Nationalist Catholic stronghold in Ireland thousands of miles away from a country which has NOTHING to do with you - and debate about whether it should exist or not.

Ahem:

Sykes wrote: »

I don't recognise your 'country'.

Ren2k7

Sykes wrote: »

I have some advice for you and your fellow Israel/Jew obsessed Irish nationalists. Why don't you focus on your financially and morally bankrupt 'country'? why don't you focus on your backwards 'country' that's recently brought in blasphemy laws in complete contradiction to western development away from such medieval laws. Why don't you focus on your terrorist supporting nutcases, your massive racist problem, your massive noncing problem and treatment of women.

So let me get this straight (no pun intended), you hate us because:

• we have a Blasphemy law - which will be done away with next year hopefully
• that we support terrorists - we don't, you should have a look at Portlaoise Prison
• our alleged "massive (sic) racist problem" - you haven't seen my neighbourhood then, plenty of diversity around here and no problems
• and treatment of women - our last two Presidents were/are women)

BUT you then say we have a "massive noncing problem". I presume by noncing you mean the gay community in Ireland. Hmm, so you accuse us of being a theocratic, terrorist supporting, racist, sexist society but that we're not homophobic enough.

RIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGHHHHHHHTTTTTT!!!!

Glassheart

Sykes wrote: »

This is typical of left wing Europeans and increasingly of the Irish terrorist supporting, racist entity.

Who are you exactly to 'broadly' support the existence of a country? who are you to sit there in some Nationalist Catholic stronghold in Ireland thousands of miles away from a country which has NOTHING to do with you - and debate about whether it should exist or not.

Who are YOU as an Irishman in a non-entity country with little world significance, to sit there and decide the fate of 7million people. Whether YOU and the rest of your Irish gang will allow the Jews to have a state.

No other country on earth has to listen to 'people' like you from 'countries' like Ireland debating whether they should be allowed to live or not. Debating whether they can have a country. Debating which bits they should and shouldn't live in.

No one sits and questions France's existence or that of the artificial Lebanon.

I have some advice for you and your fellow Israel/Jew obsessed Irish nationalists. Why don't you focus on your financially and morally bankrupt 'country'? why don't you focus on your backwards 'country' that's recently brought in blasphemy laws in complete contradiction to western development away from such medieval laws. Why don't you focus on your terrorist supporting nutcases, your massive racist problem, your massive noncing problem and treatment of women.

There's a lot in Ireland that needs fixing. So instead of sitting there obsessing over a country thousands of miles away which has sod all to do with you, why don't you take care of your own wretched 'country' that's only afloat due to EU subsidy.

You're a blabbering idiot.

Are you a UVF supporter? Tell the truth.

philologos

^^ All I know was I didn't know what hit me! :pac:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Ren2k7 wrote: »

So let me get this straight (no pun intended), you hate us because:

• we have a Blasphemy law - which will be done away with next year hopefully
• that we support terrorists - we don't, you should have a look at Portlaoise Prison
• our alleged "massive (sic) racist problem" - you haven't seen my neighbourhood then, plenty of diversity around here and no problems
• and treatment of women - our last two Presidents were/are women)

BUT you then say we have a "massive noncing problem". I presume by noncing you mean the gay community in Ireland. Hmm, so you accuse us of being a theocratic, terrorist supporting, racist, sexist society but that we're not homophobic enough.

RIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGHHHHHHHTTTTTT!!!!

nonce means paedophile, doesn't it?

Sykes

Jakkass wrote: »

OK. It appears I have some splainin' to do. :pac:


This is what I mean by broadly supporting Israel's continued right of existence. Effectively what I am saying is that I for the most part hold a favourable view towards Israel. I do allow room for criticism however.

I know what you meant, pal.

I'm saying you can stick your "broad support". I can just see you, Paddy O'shea sitting in your comfortable armchair away from incoming rockets, suicide bombers and gunmen - stroking your chin. Hmmm "I think....yeah....I think that Israel should have a right to exist. Yeah, go on then...we'll let them exist."

Who are you to sit there and discuss whether 7+ million people should exist or not? whether they should be ethnically cleansed or not.

How very sodding generous you are Mr O'shea of Ireland, to 'broadly' support these people a right to live. How very sodding generous of you indeed.

The Israelis are sitting with baited breath waiting to see what else you "broadly support" with regards to their existence.

You've misinterpreted what I've said. By "continued right to exist" I mean generally the right to defend itself from attack.

What???? the Jews have a right to defend themselves? what is this madness??? wow, you're really spreading the generosity about tonight.

Thanks for that. I don't see any debate about whether Italians are allowed to defend themselves or Spanish. I think it's taken for granted. The Jews however need the permission of the left wing Europeans and the Nationalist Irish of course.

Maybe you can allocate them a set amount of ammo or something.

All I've said is that we shouldn't be giving private information about Irish citizens to Israel unless we can be assured that they won't be abused by Israeli secret services for operations both within Israel and outside of Israel (Mossad & Shin Bet)

It's commerce information, not DNA and Passport numbers.

Glassheart

Jakkass wrote: »

^^ All I know was I didn't know what hit me! :pac:

Well you seem to be on the same side as him.The only trouble is that you're Irish.

wes

Sykes wrote: »

Who are you to sit there and discuss whether 7+ million people should exist or not? whether they should be ethnically cleansed or not.

Again:

Sykes wrote: »

I don't recognise your 'country'.

Your own words show up your own argument, and I find it funny that you are attacking a poster who is pretty supportive of Israel........ I wonder why that is?

karma_

wes wrote: »

Again:


Your own words show up your own argument, and I find it funny that you are attacking a poster who is pretty supportive of Israel........

I don't think 'it' gets irony.

Ren2k7

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

nonce means paedophile, doesn't it?

Hmm, maybe that was what he was getting at. Nonce can mean gay in a lot of places. He's still a prat mind you.

philologos

Glassheart wrote: »

Well you seem to be on the same side as him.The only trouble is that you're Irish.

Well, it's all off topic to the issue, which is that of course Ireland should say to Israel given the passport issue that they want assurances before they are willing to do this. I'm surprised that no other EU state including the other countries involved in the passport issue spoke out on it.

Sykes

wes wrote: »

Again:


Your own words show up your own argument, and I find it funny that you are attacking a poster who is pretty supportive of Israel........ I wonder why that is?

I don't recognise your backwater because of your views with regards to Israel, and Britain.

His so-called support for Israel was pathetic in its delivery and odious due to the fact he had pondered whether Israel should exist and then so kindly agreed they should.

That's like me holding a sword over your head and wondering whether I should spare your miserable life.

No other country has to listen to 'people' like you and your buddy discussing whether they should be allowed to live or not. Like it's a game of tossing a coin or something.

Do you expect Israelis to thank you for your generous offer to allow them to live?

Einhard

Oh God, can you not just go away Sykes you tedious little troll you?! Please? Do us all a favour? You dislike the Irish, and I'm pretty sure most posters aren't exactly enamoured with you, so you'd be doing us all a favour.

wes

Sykes wrote: »

I don't recognise your backwater because of your views with regards to Israel, and Britain.

So, your no better than those you condemn, who don't really exist on this thread either btw.

Sykes wrote: »

His so-called support for Israel was pathetic in its delivery and odious due to the fact he had pondered whether Israel should exist and then so kindly agreed they should.

Your talking nonsense Jakkass explained himself very clearly, and it sure as hell isn't what you claiming.

Sykes wrote: »

That's like me holding a sword over your head and wondering whether I should spare your miserable life.

Absurd comparison, for something no one actually said.

Sykes wrote: »

No other country has to listen to 'people' like you and your buddy discussing whether they should be allowed to live or not. Like it's a game of tossing a coin or something.

What interesting is that no such discussion took place on this thread.... and you already made it clear you don't recognize Ireland. So pretty basic hypocrisy at work at best. Honestly, its seems you have an issue with Irish people, more than anything else, and have given up actually discussing what has actually been said or address any points in regards to the topic at hand, and instead go off on a rant, instead of addressing the points brought up by people on here.

Sykes wrote: »

Do you expect Israelis to thank you for your generous offer to allow them to live?

Again, you are making things up. No such argument were made by anyone. Your claims have no basis at all.....

demonspawn

Einhard wrote: »

Oh God, can you not just go away Sykes you tedious little troll you?! Please? Do us all a favour? You dislike the Irish, and I'm pretty sure most posters aren't exactly enamoured with you, so you'd be doing us all a favour.

No, let him keep going. He's simply revealing the true face of Zionism. People need to know what Zionists actually believe and he's doing a great job in showing us.

Jumpy

Sykes wrote: »

Do you expect Israelis to thank you for your generous offer to allow them to live?

They had better damn well thank us if they ever want votes in the Eurovision.

Nil pwa for you there boyo.

Nodin

Sykes wrote: »

I don't recognise your backwater because of your views with regards to Israel, and Britain.

Sort of takes the wind out of your sails on Hamas then, doesn't it?