Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Charlie McCreevy - Architect of the Crash?

  • 08-09-2010 07:12AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭


    While Bertie and Brian Cowan are rightly given a large amount of political responsibility for the absolute mess we are in I wonder will economic historians in time identify the period that Charlie McCreevy was in charge of the finance portfolio as the time when the rot really took off.

    Fianna Fail policies have been too populist on many occasions in the past, e.g. 1977 manifesto. However, McCreevy encouraged the expansionary policies and allowed it to go unchecked more than anyone in the past. I remember him being warned by the EU that we were expanding too quickly. His answer was an arrogant reply that we were a "Special Case" . Even my non economic background told me that we were a special case in reverse. We would always have to perform better, more efficiently and continue to do so because of our periferal location.

    Add to the above McCreevy's mantra of "I have it so I'll spend it" and his development of the Decentralisation programme and we have an ex minister that should not be treated kindly by the economic historians.

    Also, if we had a forward thinking Minister, the taxes earned could have been spent on a pulic sector redundancy and efficiency programme to leave us in a more competitive position when the boom eventually stopped.

    Opinions?


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    I don't think we've had too many ministers in any capacity who've not spent what they had and wasted plenty while they are at it, but my understanding of the Ahern-McCreevy relationship is that McCreevy would come round to Bertie before the budget, give him a copy, go for a walk, come back, get Bertie's suggestions and include his pet projects, and take the budget back.

    So yes, he had a massive influence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,950 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    Charlie McCreevy - Architect of the Crash?

    yes

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Charlie McCreevy - Architect of the Crash?

    No.

    He did not sit down and design the crash. But if the economy was a car then he was negligent in failing to design in seat belts and airbags.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭Callan57


    For a guy who had something to say about everything for years & a self proclaimed oracle who couldn't keep his trap shut suddenly he's remarkably silent ... maybe Haughey was right to keep him on the backbenches :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭liammur


    Callan57 wrote: »
    For a guy who had something to say about everything for years & a self proclaimed oracle who couldn't keep his trap shut suddenly he's remarkably silent ... maybe Haughey was right to keep him on the backbenches :mad:

    Will go down as the worst finance minister in our history. Some of his decisions were truly incomprehensible.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,633 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Overconfidence in their own abilities rather than understanding it was more like a cork bobbing held up in the choppy waves of the world economy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Not THE architect - a member of the FIRM of architects of the crash.

    Maybe one of the senior members though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭dixiefly


    EU finally finally finally starting to deal with this guy. He resisted well founded advice from the EU to keep the lid on the property sector when he was Finance minister and started the ball rolling (imo anyway) that has eventually landed us where we are today. At the bottom of the article is a summary of his earnings not counting the many thousands he gleaned in expenses over the years.

    How the f**k do these guys justify the multiple pensions and still have the audacity to sit on these boards?

    McCreevy resigns from bank board
    ARTHUR BEESLEY, European Correspondent

    Thu, Oct 07, 2010

    Former European commissioner Charlie McCreevy has resigned from the board of a new British banking firm after an EU ethics committee found a conflict of interest with his work as commissioner in charge of financial regulation.

    Mr McCreevy stepped down from the board NBNK Investments last night on foot of a negative opinion from the committee, which was established by the Commission to assess his employment by the firm.

    This is first time that a former member of the EU executive has had to resign a directorship since the current system for overseeing the work of retired commissioners was introduced in 2003.

    NBNK Investments was set up during the summer by former Lloyds chairman Lord Levine to pursue acquisition opportunities in the British banking sector. As institutions seek to recover from the financial crash, some large players are selling assets to comply with EU competition rulings.

    According to its website, the NBNK’s proposition is to build “a new and substantial UK bank”, primarily through acquisition.

    As internal markets commissioner, Mr McCreevy was the originator of new legislation to set up a new pan-European system of financial regulation

    NBNK took a £50 million (€57.86 million) stock market listing on the Alternative Investment Market in London with funding from investors including Aviva, FC Management, Invesco and Och-Ziff Capital Management.

    Amid criticism of the former Minister for Finance's directorship earlier this week, the company said the former internal markets commissioner would have a “less substantial” board role until the first anniversary of his retirement from the Commission in February. It also said he would not receive director's fees in that period.

    A spokesman for NBNK Investments acknowledged Mr McCreevy’s departure but said he was not in a position to ask the former commissioner whether he had any comment on the committee’s ruling.

    In a statement, the company said Mr McCreevy resigned from the board with immediate effect in order to fully comply with his obligations as a former member of the Commission.

    "When Mr Charles McCreevy was approached initially to join the board of NBNK Investments, he notified the European Commission authorities as required," the statement said.

    "Following a dialogue with the European Commission it has not been possible to find a way in which Mr McCreevy can continue with his directorship of NBNK in a manner compatible with his standard responsibilities as a former European Commissioner."

    The statement went on to say that the board respected and understood his position.

    Mr McCreevy's appointment to the company prompted criticism in the European Parliament, where generous "transition" allowances he and many of his former commission colleagues receive have met with a frosty reception.

    Labour MEP Nessa Childers welcomed the committee’s ruling. “The manner in which this decision was made is further proof of the power of the directly elected European Parliament under the Lisbon Treaty,” she said. “I am hopeful that this will send out a strong signal that the Commission has ended its laissez-faire attitude to the post-Commission employment of its former members."

    The ethics committee, which reported in recent days, was the second to examine Mr McCreevy's work since he left the commission.

    Last May, another committee cleared his membership of the Ryanair board but said he could not advise the airline on any case involving its business which came before the EU executive’s internal markets division when he was commissioner.

    Mr McCreevy's remuneration from Ryanair would be deducted from his €11,150 per month “transition allowance”. He also receives an annual ministerial pension of €74,746 and a €52,213 pension for having served as a TD.
    © 2010 irishtimes.com


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭Dob74


    dixiefly wrote: »
    While Bertie and Brian Cowan are rightly given a large amount of political responsibility for the absolute mess we are in I wonder will economic historians in time identify the period that Charlie McCreevy was in charge of the finance portfolio as the time when the rot really took off.

    Fianna Fail policies have been too populist on many occasions in the past, e.g. 1977 manifesto. However, McCreevy encouraged the expansionary policies and allowed it to go unchecked more than anyone in the past. I remember him being warned by the EU that we were expanding too quickly. His answer was an arrogant reply that we were a "Special Case" . Even my non economic background told me that we were a special case in reverse. We would always have to perform better, more efficiently and continue to do so because of our periferal location.

    Add to the above McCreevy's mantra of "I have it so I'll spend it" and his development of the Decentralisation programme and we have an ex minister that should not be treated kindly by the economic historians.

    Also, if we had a forward thinking Minister, the taxes earned could have been spent on a pulic sector redundancy and efficiency programme to leave us in a more competitive position when the boom eventually stopped.

    Opinions?



    +1

    Cutting taxes and raising spending from 1997 to 2004 is the reason we are in this mess.
    Never mind he is the architect of our light touch regulation.

    The main problem with Mcceevy is that the media loved him and egged him on. he just couldn't make the tough decisions always a give away budget.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭dixiefly


    I am not sure if there is anything that can be done to make this guy accountable. He wasnt the only one but seems to have been fundamental to the policies that , in so many ways, left us in this mess.

    The whole area of competitiveness is just as much a cause of our problems at the moment.We allowed our costs to rise and rise to the extent that man companies that were happy to stay in Ireland found that their costs were inexorably rising that they found other places to go. Of course some would have gone anyway but we should have been doing everything possible to keep their costs down. Charlie didnt care if a well routed manufacturing company was lost once it was replaced by a call centre or more construction jobs.

    Then there is Decentralisation - how many Civil Servants were given promotions just to decentralise? And then some didnt have to? How many were given big promotions just to go into some of the many quangos that were formed.

    There was always the possibility that the bankers would do what they did for short term gain....if they were let.
    The regulator was weak and was influenced wrongly by Government policy.
    Bertie's excuse was that he was dealing with northern ireland etc etc nd had charlie minding the ship.

    I would like to see an interview with Charlie in which the hard questions are asked, not that it will change anything.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    On the list of culprits for the crash i'd have McCreevy down the list well behind Bertie and Biffo.

    When McCreevey became minister for Finance in 1997 he was pretty clear in how he went about his post, he didnt listen to anyone especially Bertie and was somewhat prudent/sensible in his expenditure always matching expenditure growth with economic growth annually. Legend has it the morning of a budget he'd drop over to St. Lukes give Bertie his budget speech and go for a 30 min walk while Bertie got a chance to frantically absorb it.
    It all changed for McCreevey when he was put under severe party pressure to increase expenditure prior to the 2002 election, it was at this point govt expenditure ballooned out of control, expenditure in the first half of 2002 was up something like 22% in a cynical effort by PJ Mara & Bertie to buy another election.

    Thereafter there was a power shift in FF and Charlie knew he wasnt getting the support for his measures as Bertie was caving into every request from every minister, union, local td's etc.
    In a final act to release the public purse strings Bertie sent McCreevy off to Brussels and replaced him with the consistantly poorly performing minister that was Cowan. Cowan caved into Bertie's every request and govt expenditure went crazy.

    However McCreevy did introduce several tax breaks that solely benefitted the very wealthy/FF donators and was also responsible for the utter sham that was decentralisation. While the grants giving to the horse industry under his reign were ridiculous.

    I'm not saying Charlie was without blame, i'm not a fan of his but the architect for the crash in my opinion was Bertie with his twin obsessions in govt to firstly plan towards winning the next election and secondly his consistant ability to cave in to every demand made by unions, ministers, td's etc to increase expenditure.
    i'd nearly say the only person who Bertie denied extra cash was the Director of Corporate Enforcement who's request for extra cash/staff was rejected.

    Honerable mention to Harney who oversaw the creation of the HSE and the billions of euro's is sucks out of our economy to little benefit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,231 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    McCreevy, Ahern, Cowen, Harney, etc etc.

    Who voted for them all? Who has tolerated their corruption?

    WE HAVE! The Irish electorate is responsible for the mess we are in because we as a people, at any time, could have said "hang on a minute, isn't it a bit imprudent to be cutting taxes to the bone whilst increasing spending and encouraging inappropriate development all over the country?"....but we didn't, we couldn't get enough of the sh!te...loved it when we opened the property supplements to see our shoebox, badly built house was now "worth" a cool half-mil, laughed at Johnny Foreigner for their higher taxes, tendency to rent affordable accomodation rather than buy, shunned their advice about our overheating economy and ran to the ballot box with FF 123 already scribbled on our balllots.....WE are the architects of our own downfall and I am sick and tired of people blaming one sector or the other.

    The only issue now outstanding to me is this: do we learn from this catastrophe and begin to demand more from our politicians (who make the decisions about our lives!) or do we carry on tolerating bad governmnent?

    How many people, despite all the sh!t that has gone down in the last couple of years, have actually contacted their TD to say "hey, this is not good enough". Very, very few I believe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭itsalltrue


    would agree that he played a part but his one saving grace is he put aside the €20 billion in the national pension fund. If that wasn't there IMF would have been here 18 months ago


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    murphaph wrote: »
    McCreevy, Ahern, Cowen, Harney, etc etc.

    Who voted for them all? Who has tolerated their corruption?

    WE HAVE! The Irish electorate is responsible for the mess we are in because we as a people, at any time, could have said "hang on a minute, isn't it a bit imprudent to be cutting taxes to the bone whilst increasing spending and encouraging inappropriate development all over the country?"....but we didn't, we couldn't get enough of the sh!te...loved it when we opened the property supplements to see our shoebox, badly built house was now "worth" a cool half-mil, laughed at Johnny Foreigner for their higher taxes, tendency to rent affordable accomodation rather than buy, shunned their advice about our overheating economy and ran to the ballot box with FF 123 already scribbled on our balllots.....WE are the architects of our own downfall and I am sick and tired of people blaming one sector or the other.

    The only issue now outstanding to me is this: do we learn from this catastrophe and begin to demand more from our politicians (who make the decisions about our lives!) or do we carry on tolerating bad governmnent?

    How many people, despite all the sh!t that has gone down in the last couple of years, have actually contacted their TD to say "hey, this is not good enough". Very, very few I believe.

    not everyone voted for FF, not everyone bought into the property hype, yet everyone is paying for the ridiculous decisions made by 3 successive FF lead governments.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,231 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    bamboozle wrote: »
    not everyone voted for FF, not everyone bought into the property hype, yet everyone is paying for the ridiculous decisions made by 3 successive FF lead governments.
    I'm one of those people who realised it was all going to end in tears and stopped voting for FF. I however accept that we live in a democracy (an imperfect one, but a democracy nonetheless) whereby enough of my fellow Irish citizens DID believe on the bullsh!t and lapped it up and now we are all going to pay.

    There's absolutely no point in arguing that "I didn't vote for FF" because enough people did.

    Edit: I think it is more accurate to say (as an engineer I look for root cause) that the problems were caused by the Irish electorate's democractic (and in my view flawed) decision to return FF to power time and time again. So, given that, we all have to pay for our fellow citizens poor judgement, not for FF's.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭kevteljeur


    "Democracy is a device that insures we shall be governed no better than we deserve."
    - George Bernard Shaw

    Some of those quotes really stand the test of time.



    k


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 922 ✭✭✭trishasaffron


    Personally I identify McGreedy as the/one of the chief architects of the ecomomic disaster.

    Not only did I never ever vote for him but I tried in any way I could to vote against him! Still in many people's eyes "we're all reponsible" ........no we aren't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,231 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Personally I identify McGreedy as the/one of the chief architects of the ecomomic disaster.

    Not only did I never ever vote for him but I tried in any way I could to vote against him! Still in many people's eyes "we're all reponsible" ........no we aren't.
    Did you buy into any of the BS though? Did you take out credit for a new car maybe? Or perhaps bought an overpriced house? Did you always keep your money in your pocket when you felt something was too expensive for what it was, or did you just buy that bagel and coffee for lunch @ 6 or 7 Euro a pop?

    Celtic Tiger Ireland....if only more people had brought ham sandwiches to work and fewer had sipped overpriced cafe lattes from O'Brien's.

    Very few people kept a cool head during those times. I myself am guilty of buying sh!t that quite frankly, I just didn't need. Luckily for me I am in only modest debt (mortgage is managable but still too much for what I have to show for it).

    I have learned a hell of a lot about the deficiency of the Irish psyche since leaving the place. Germans won't part with a red cent unless they think they are getting value for money. That's probably why so many discount supermarkets come from here...

    We have a lot to learn in Ireland if we are to avoid the same thing happening all over again in 20 years and I am not at all convinced that people have learned anything from this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Mr McCreevy's remuneration from Ryanair would be deducted from his €11,150 per month “transition allowance”. He also receives an annual ministerial pension of €74,746 and a €52,213 pension for having served as a TD.

    Does he really receive a ministerial and a td pension at the same time? Are all ministers entitled to get both pensions?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    murphaph wrote: »
    I'm one of those people who realised it was all going to end in tears and stopped voting for FF.
    What years did you vote for them? Personally I've never voted for them and I'm tired of being included in this "we" business. Unless you have been elected in some way you should restrict yourself to "I" as in "I voted for Fianna Fail", "I did not realise what was going on" etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,131 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    i saw interviews with his colleagues in the EU, and the impression i got between the lines was, they think he's a drunk, smartass, gambling paddy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Essexboy


    This post has been deleted.

    You are ignoring the fact that between the years of 2000 and 2003 McCreevy boosted public spending by 48pc while cutting income tax.
    And in 2002, Mary Harney (yes, Mary Harney) slammed the Central Bank for its 'failure...to fully and effectively oversee and regulate the banking sector'.
    McCreevy rejected this. If he had acted on the Ansbacher report who knows where we would be today.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,246 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    2003 Budgetary Figures:

    Total Government Expenditure in 2003 (Table 1):

    43.045 billion 36.4% of GNP.

    Total Government Revenue in 2003 (Table 4 of below link):

    41.082 billion 34.7% GNP

    Now lets see what the situation was in 2009:

    Total Government Expenditure in 2009 (Table 1):

    75.762 billion 57.7% GNP

    Total Government Revenue in 2009 (Table 4):

    46.916 billion 35.7% GNP

    So in the years after McCreevys departure, spending was increased by 80% over the 2003 figure in just 6 short years, whilst revenue remained static.

    Essentially, McCreevys budget was fairly balanced and in line with increasing wealth - even in the depths of this depression, the state is able to raise revenue to cover McCreevys spend and run a significant surplus. If we were still spending what McCreevy spent, we would not have a fiscal crisis. Additional revenue raised in from 2003 onwards was by and large transaction tax based (capital gains, indirect taxes, stamp duty, etc), with at best modest growth in direct taxation on income.

    The point where budgets tipped from generous but sustainable to recklessly out of control was with the reign of Cowen, when Bertie had no opposition from an strong, independant Minister for Finance.

    So was McCreevy responsible for the banking crisis? Was he asleep at the wheel whilst the Irish banks lent like madmen? Well no. In 2004, Irish banks were lending out about 125% of GNP. This was a high figure by historic standards in Ireland (historic norm was 75% GNP) but in line with international norms.

    Irish bank lending (and thus the property bubble and the risk in the model) took off like a rocket in the Cowen years, with total lending by Q1 2009 rising to 320% GNP.

    McCreevy is not an angel, he was a politician, and he often worked to a politicial agenda more than an idealistically economic liberal agenda (the decentralisation scam) but he is a lighting rod for the hatred of the lazy media, public sector and trade unions in this country. They despise him because 1 - He was at least open to liberal concepts 2 - He was an abrasive character, who enjoyed winding them up. Fianna Fail dont have any problem with this - they hate McCreevy too because he wouldnt increase spending as fast as they wanted.

    However, Cowen and Bertie were the people most responsible for the fiscal disaster we find ourselves in, and both they and the public sector workers in the regulators are at responsible for the lack of regulation over the banking sector from 2004 onwards when the property bubble surged.

    I am curious though. I often see many different variations of a quote assigned to Charlie McCreevy. It runs something like "When I have money, I will spend it. When I dont, I wont". I have been unable to ever find the source or context of this statement.

    Anyone able to point me to the source interview or speech?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    dixiefly wrote: »
    Then there is Decentralisation
    How many ghost housing estates built to house the staff being 'ear-marked' for the various towns? And, of the property sold off to finance the project, how much of the related loans are now in Nama?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭Poly


    murphaph wrote: »
    Germans won't part with a red cent unless they think they are getting value for money. That's probably why so many discount supermarkets come from here...
    they must love giving their money to us!

    Murph, what does the average German think of our situation?
    they must be fairly pee'd off, can't blame them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Essexboy


    McCreevy was the main architect of IFSRA and the revised banking regulation system
    Alarm bells rang while he was still Minister for Finance, but he did nothing eg after the Faldor scam at AIB in 2004 "McCreevy added that IFSRA was the competent authority and that it had been set up under "robust legislation" and was now carrying out a thorough investigation."
    http://www.rte.ie/business//2004/0528/aib.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    McCreevy was the architect, but in 2004 when he realised the foundations of the skyscraper he had designed were unstable, he went to the CEO of the company. The CEO (Bertie) ignored these warnings and rather than listen to the man who knew more about the design than anyone on the planet, he sacked him.

    If McCreevy had remained Minister For Finance not only would we not be in this mess, we would probably be one of the only countries in the world largely unaffected by the financial crisis, up there with Canada and Australia.

    So in a complicated roundup; McCreevy was technically responsible for the design, but when he attempted to correct the subsidence, evident to him in 2004, Bertie sent him off to Brussels for fear he might "upset the apple tart".


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭rumour


    Sand wrote: »
    So was McCreevy responsible for the banking crisis? Was he asleep at the wheel whilst the Irish banks lent like madmen? Well no. In 2004, Irish banks were lending out about 125% of GNP. This was a high figure by historic standards in Ireland (historic norm was 75% GNP) but in line with international norms.

    Irish bank lending (and thus the property bubble and the risk in the model) took off like a rocket in the Cowen years, with total lending by Q1 2009 rising to 320% GNP.

    McCreevy is not an angel, he was a politician, and he often worked to a politicial agenda more than an idealistically economic liberal agenda (the decentralisation scam) but he is a lighting rod for the hatred of the lazy media, public sector and trade unions in this country. They despise him because 1 - He was at least open to liberal concepts 2 - He was an abrasive character, who enjoyed winding them up. Fianna Fail dont have any problem with this - they hate McCreevy too because he wouldnt increase spending as fast as they wanted.

    However, Cowen and Bertie were the people most responsible for the fiscal disaster we find ourselves in, and both they and the public sector workers in the regulators are at responsible for the lack of regulation over the banking sector from 2004 onwards when the property bubble surged.
    Finally some balance here. I have never voted FF ad hold no candle for them but it is again symtomatic of how screwed up this country is when they cannot distinguish facts.
    Was it not MCCreevy that took away te tax breaks for developers only to find himselfforced to do a u-turn and then dismissed to europe.


Advertisement
Advertisement