God did not create the universe...

Jakkass wrote: »

I never said that the gods were irrelevant, I said that your point was irrelevant. I explained why. Not because one shouldn't consider the Greek panthenon of gods but rather because it would be premature unless one actually believes that a Creator is possible.

It is evident that atheists and agnostics don't or at least have difficulty in doing so.

Wibbs wrote: »

Well, yes and no. If the universe for example is infinite and collapses and expands(and with no time existing in between these events) then it doesnt require a finite beginning. That notion only exists within the universe itself, if you live on the very skin of the multidimensional bubble. Overall causality is not required except within the universe itself. So a pantheist God would be pretty much all the things ascribed to the concept. No beginning, no end, the alpha and omega(or A to Z, we've come on a bit ). It would "know" everything, every scrap of quantum information of itself. That's infinitely bigger than man in cloud handing out boils and manna(though it could still do that).

Actually it doesnt. It does present a damn good theory about how the universe grew after the first picoseconds of its existence and up to today. It does not tell us anything of how that universe arose in the first place. It tells us there was a seed and that a complex plant grew from that seed, its says nada about where or what that seed was.

Even the stuff after the plant grew has well dodgy holes in it that require a bit of slight of hand mathematically to make it work. Inflation in the early universe being one. "Oh we need inflation to explain stuff, but we mostly ignore the serious lack of reason why it should inflate in the first effin place, without any "outside" source".

Matter V anti matter. Why was there an imbalance? Why didnt one obliterate the other 100%? It should have.

Why is the universe way emptier than it ought to be based on our maths and theories? "Oh right Joe, we'll invent "dark matter"". Really? Oh yea great stuff that. You have two apples in one hand and two apples in the other. How many apples do you have in both? Four. Sorry no I only see one. Ahh thats because the other three are invisible you silly boy". Ehhhhh...nope.

Then they found the universe was speeding up in it's current expansion. Ah jaysus ted WTF? So lets bring in "dark energy" to even up the books. You are having an effin laugh at this stage son would be the objective take. Even the "evidence" for dark matter and energy is tiny, I mean effin miniscule. Even if the evidence is correct its out by a huge amount. Do you realise how much matter and energy the theories say is missing off the books? We're talking in the high 80% IIRC(if not higher) of all the matter and energy they expect to see with current theories. If your accountant gave you those figures you'd set teh dogs on him or her. Unless you worked for Anglo of course. Hmmm.....

Like I said science will throw in its own version of magic wands from time to time too. They can abstract out an explanation and if questioned are not too far away from religion in saying "ah but its beyond your understanding and very complex". Not too far away from "god moves in mysterious ways" with added equations. In one way I hope God does exist and if so hope to meet same and if I do I'll say "fair play mate, good to finally meet you. Great job on the oul universe. Mountains are bloody brilliant. And Stars? You are the man! And BTW you have one helluva sense of humour as far as leaving all sorts of red herrings all over the place. Is the universe some sort of IQ test, cos I'm bollocksed on the first question. Multiple choice would have been nice". True though it so depends on which angle you come from. If expansion and balancing our matter and gravity and all the other tweaks went on, then hands full wouldnt be in it. Plus, just because I gather ingredients, mix them and stick it in an oven at regulo 5, it doesnt mean I'm interfering in the raising of the dough in the baking process. Why not? It doesnt mean "he" created science. Thats the same philosophical trap the theists get into. Again like the baking analogy. I plan a cake, I set the stage for a cake, the cake arises from the environment I create. I dont create the cake from point zero. But without me the flour remains in grains of wheat in the field. Now widen that out and narrow that down from the micro to the macro over 15 billion years plus. That could be one helluva cooking lesson. Now I have myself seeing Jamie Oliver on the roof of the sistine chapel.:eek::pac: