515 are looking for DJs

seannash · 18-08-2010 02:21PM

Android 666 wrote: »

I don't dj so for me its not a problem but its the same argument that is being bandied about in all the creative sectors from photography to songwriting to advertising to graphic design and the problem is is that you can't eat passion. If you want to be exploited that's fair enough but you shouldn't expect everyone else to feel the same way and to encourage the exploitation of people is a bit of a no no in my books. I think brian has summed it up pretty succinctly in his post there.

its not the same as photography,graphic design etc

djing is fun and alot less work than any of the jobs listed above.
were not encouraging people to shortchange themselves but this is there choice.dont make them feel foolish for wanting to do it.
how about all those people in recording studios doing work exerience for no money are they being shafted?

seriously if fabric asked me to come and play i wouldnt be quizzing them on how much ill be getting.

how do you get to carnegie hall?
practice practice practice(and then ask how much youll be getting paid for the gig)

this will be some peoples carnegie hall and money shouldnt be a deciding factor in experiencing something they might remember for the rest of there lives

if it leads to further gigs talk figures and if you get paid on the night, bonus.

ianuss · 18-08-2010 02:30PM

My 2 cents on the issue;

I dj for my own pleasure, I mean, I'm not looking to make a career, I'm not even trying to obtain small paid gigs or anything like that. And while I, like others, would probably be quite happy to play a one-off warm-up slot in somewhere like Tripod for nothing. IMO It becomes a problem when the slot is not a one-off.

If it's a one-off opportunity being afforded to local talent, then I think it's ok to not pay them. Cos you're giving them experience and a bit of exposure. The difficulty arises when you have the same dj's playing regularly, contributing to the success of a night, offering their services for nothing. By accepting this, these dj's are screwing themselves, and their colleagues out of income (which doesn't even have to be much, just give them some fookin $$'s). Gear is expensive, buying music is expensive, transport costs, lugging equipment around is a pain in the arse etc.......just offer the dj some compensation for their time and effort.

Elevator · 18-08-2010 02:45PM

the one thing everyone has to remember is the djs will be putting together their sweet mixes and sending them off,

tripod will pick the ones they like above the others and possibly try to find out have you much of a network around you thru fb, myspace etc and offer people a slot on the basis that they are good and will probably bring lots of your mates

if you don't look for even €50 or a nice even €100 for that then it's consentual exploitation

seannash · 18-08-2010 02:51PM

Elevator wrote: »

the one thing everyone has to remember is the djs will be putting together their sweet mixes and sending them off,

tripod will pick the ones they like above the others and possibly try to find out have you much of a network around you thru fb, myspace etc and offer people a slot on the basis that they are good and will probably bring lots of your mates

if you don't look for even €50 or a nice even €100 for that then it's consentual exploitation

just because you have 3000 friends on facebook does not mean you have a following.

you dont have to advertise it,tell mates or bring anyone if you dont want to.

just a question but is there any circumstances where playing the venue as a once off outweighs the need to get paid?

also you thanked ianuss's post but hes basically saying what me and copeyhagen have been saying

Android 666 · 18-08-2010 03:18PM

seannash wrote: »

its not the same as photography,graphic design etc

djing is fun and alot less work than any of the jobs listed above.
were not encouraging people to shortchange themselves but this is there choice.dont make them feel foolish for wanting to do it.

Some people get the same feeling of pleasure from taking a photograph as someone else would spinning a record and I would class both as creative pursuits and both can be as hard as you want to make them. I never intended to make anyone feel foolish I was just trying to show what can happen when people start playing for free all the time

seannash wrote: »

how about all those people in recording studios doing work exerience for no money are they being shafted?

In a word, yeah. The practice of using unpaid interns has become rife in the design industry and it's one I'm not fond of. But at the moment there are plenty of people out there to exploit and that's what studios are doing. Doesn't make it right in my book.

seannash wrote: »

seriously if fabric asked me to come and play i wouldnt be quizzing them on how much ill be getting.

Unless you're an established artist what are the chances of Fabric ringing you so I think that's a moot point. I think ianuss has pointed it out pretty

seannash wrote: »

how do you get to carnegie hall?
practice practice practice(and then ask how much youll be getting paid for the gig)

this will be some peoples carnegie hall and money shouldnt be a deciding factor in experiencing something they might remember for the rest of there lives

So let's say a pianist slowly builds a reputation over 20 years and eventually makes it to Carnegie Hall. Do you think its fair that he shouldn't be paid because of the 'privilege' he's been givinG?

seannash wrote: »

if it leads to further gigs talk figures and if you get paid on the night, bonus.

And if its a once off I don't really have a problem with it but if its continual exploitation I think that's a bit off. ianuss' point is probably the most accurate way of looking at it:

If it's a one-off opportunity being afforded to local talent, then I think it's ok to not pay them. Cos you're giving them experience and a bit of exposure. The difficulty arises when you have the same dj's playing regularly, contributing to the success of a night, offering their services for nothing. By accepting this, these dj's are screwing themselves, and their colleagues out of income

I suppose it all comes down to common sense in terms of where you draw the line.

seannash · 18-08-2010 03:28PM

Some people get the same feeling of pleasure from taking a photograph as someone else would spinning a record and I would class both as creative pursuits and both can be as hard as you want to make them. I never intended to make anyone feel foolish I was just trying to show what can happen when people start playing for free all the time

fair enough

In a word, yeah. The practice of using unpaid interns has become rife in the design industry and it's one I'm not fond of. But at the moment there are plenty of people out there to exploit and that's what studios are doing. Doesn't make it right in my book.

okay the design industry,whilst being a creative pursuit isnt the same as djing and any exploitation in it cant be used as an example for djing in my opinion.i was talking about interns in recording studios where they are learning skills.

Unless you're an established artist what are the chances of Fabric ringing you so I think that's a moot point. I think ianuss has pointed it out pretty

and the chance of tripod asking an unknown to dj is also very slim.ive never said continually dj for no money but for a once off its erfectly fine if its in a decnet venue that you want to play

So let's say a pianist slowly builds a reputation over 20 years and eventually makes it to Carnegie Hall. Do you think its fair that he shouldn't be paid because of the 'privilege' he's been givinG?

yes we all known in actuality he will be paid but i used carnegie hall as an example of a venue people would love to play in,much like tripod would be a big deal for an unknown dj to play.

as a side, i saw an oprah show where she granted a wish for someone to play carnegie hall.im pretty sure the performer didnt get paid

And if its a once off I don't really have a problem with it but if its continual exploitation I think that's a bit off. ianuss' point is probably the most accurate way of looking at it:

If it's a one-off opportunity being afforded to local talent, then I think it's ok to not pay them. Cos you're giving them experience and a bit of exposure. The difficulty arises when you have the same dj's playing regularly, contributing to the success of a night, offering their services for nothing. By accepting this, these dj's are screwing themselves, and their colleagues out of income

I suppose it all comes down to common sense in terms of where you draw the line.

definitely agree,if its a continued gig payment should be discussed but as a once off money shouldnt be a deciding factor in my opinion

Jev/N · 18-08-2010 03:30PM

seannash wrote: »

you dont have to advertise it,tell mates or bring anyone if you dont want to.

I won't get into this but with these promoters, yes you do.

seannash · 18-08-2010 03:34PM

Jev/N wrote: »

I won't get into this but with these promoters, yes you do.

no you dont,if they tell you you have to you still dont have to do it.its your choice.

if you dont get the gig as a result then you made the right decision.noone can force you to do it if you dont want to

also on the face of it this competiton is down to the mix you submit so telling people they will have to bring mates before anyone has been asked is steering people in the wrong direction.

if it turns out that you have to bring X amount of people then my advice would be to refuse.

until then its just a competition with the criteria as stated in the original post

Android 666 · 18-08-2010 03:37PM

seannash wrote: »

okay the design industry,whilst being a creative pursuit isnt the same as djing and any exploitation in it cant be used as an example for djing in my opinion.i was talking about interns in recording studios where they are learning skills.

Sorry I think you picked me up wrong - I was comparing the rise of the unpaid in design studios being the same the same as unpaid interns in recording studios and I was just trying to make the point that imo they were both being exploited.

Tbh, I think we are basically singing from the same hymn sheet on all the major points on this.

copeyhagen · 18-08-2010 03:48PM

think we can more or less sum it up with:

once off = fine

more than once off = not fine

hans aus dtschl · 18-08-2010 04:34PM

I have paid everyone I've ever had warm up, even if they've been local lads still learning how to mix.
If I ask someone to play a gig and we have no budget, the money comes from my pocket. Even a crate of beer, accommodation and a bit of food is looked upon fondly.
Does that make me a sucker?

You lot really make some strange arguments.

It's like this: if you ask me to play a gig, you should make it clear that there's no money involved and make it clear what I'll be expected to do.
But if there's no money involved, I'll be asking why you want me to play. If it's fun for me, cool, if not, I walk away.

copeyhagen · 18-08-2010 04:41PM

whered ya get the sucker part from?!

jimi_t2 · 18-08-2010 05:22PM

Supply > Demand

Otherwise they'd be paying people. Can't really see how people have gotten two pages of an argument out of this.

hans aus dtschl · 18-08-2010 05:30PM

seannash wrote: »

djing is fun and alot less work than any of the jobs listed above.
were not encouraging people to shortchange themselves but this is there choice.dont make them feel foolish for wanting to do it.

How about making people feel foolish for paying warmup dj's?

The photography/graphic design parallels are hugely significant here.

seannash · 18-08-2010 06:10PM

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

How about making people feel foolish for paying warmup dj's?

The photography/graphic design parallels are hugely significant here.

huh?

ive paid people to dj for me.i dont feel foolish.it was my decision.

if its 515's decision not to pay thats there choice and if its the djs choice to do it for free its theres.

even if you feel the photography/graphic design is similar its a seperate area.
to draw a better comparison try comparing it to an inexperienced band looking for a gig.there not worried about the payment they just want the experience.im sure if a good venue offered them a gig they would jump at the chance and not feel like there being exploited like so many have said

seannash · 18-08-2010 06:13PM

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

It's like this: if you ask me to play a gig, you should make it clear that there's no money involved and make it clear what I'll be expected to do.
But if there's no money involved, I'll be asking why you want me to play. If it's fun for me, cool, if not, I walk away.

so if its fun for the guy djing and no money is involved its cool for a one off?

thats basically what we have been saying and most people agree

brianc27 · 18-08-2010 08:44PM

theres always gonna be bedroom djs that would love to play in a big club and have no problem doing it for free and who can blame them, but thats not the point, the point is a place like tripod should be paying their djs, its the principle of it more then anything, something very shadey about a place of that size not throwing even a couple a quid to some warm up djs.

people think this its a great thing them looking for new djs but they are only doing it because theres a good number of heads around the place that will not go near them, as they know they wont get paid.

gsparx · 18-08-2010 11:59PM

brianc27 wrote: »

people think this its a great thing them looking for new djs but they are only doing it because theres a good number of heads around the place that will not go near them, as they know they wont get paid.

Has this been confirmed though? No one seems to know for sure.
I suppose 515 could come on here and publicly refute it.

bubble_wrap · 19-08-2010 12:06AM

gsparx wrote: »

Has this been confirmed though? No one seems to know for sure.
I suppose 515 could come on here and publicly refute it.

this is a joke, a once iconic club in Dublin holding nights like this and not paying the dj's, unbelievable!

brianc27 · 19-08-2010 04:59AM

gsparx wrote: »

Has this been confirmed though? No one seems to know for sure.
I suppose 515 could come on here and publicly refute it.

well thats what people around the place have being saying anyway, i'd say its true enough, if it wasn't im sure they'd have been on here (and other sites were this has come up) by now refuting it.

Is mise le key · 19-08-2010 08:43AM

My two cents,

If its a mash up Rave & everybody is in it for the music the DJ should be in it for the crowd & have no problem doing it without prior agreement with the organisers of payment but said organisers should then sort them out after out of decency.

If you have a well established operation that is clearly a business looking to maintain the prominent position in the city by scouting for new fresh talent but is making a prior agreement of no pay for the priviledge of playing in their club they should be given the two fingers by the DJ & regular punters to take them off their pedistal. Its an abuse of power really.

If your just DJ'ing for the craic then you dont need to grace the doors of Tripod for kicks! Surley a clandestine Rave (of which there are many) would be just as pleasing if its just for the love of the music & you dont need to allow a self serving greedy bastard enterprise like Tripod cream it on the back of enthusiastic new DJ's. (if its true they are not paying as a policy that is)

hans aus dtschl · 19-08-2010 09:32AM

seannash wrote: »

so if its fun for the guy djing and no money is involved its cool for a one off?

thats basically what we have been saying and most people agree

No, what I'm saying is that if the DJ decides a gig is worth playing for free, cool, that's their prerogative, and who can stop them, in fairness.
But I disagree with promoters EXPECTING the dj to play for free (because THEIR event is worth it or whatever). A very subtle difference, and for me, the best practice would be that the promoter makes it absolutely clear before any other negotiation that the gig will be unpaid.

Even though I've no working knowledge of 515/tripod, I'd be surprised at them if they didnt pay their warmup dj's even a token sum, given the prices they're paying for the bigger names.

brianc27 · 19-08-2010 08:32PM

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Even though I've no working knowledge of 515/tripod, I'd be surprised at them if they didnt pay their warmup dj's even a token sum, given the prices they're paying for the bigger names.

the less money they have to fork out for djs the more money the promoters take home.

electrogrimey · 20-08-2010 04:48PM

Elevator wrote: »

your time and effort has to be worth something right, when ya consider that even the cleaners get laid

It's a disgrace isn't it. Big promoters like this not even getting their warmup DJs a token blowjob.

My general rule is that if it's a set/club/set-up I'm going to enjoy, tunes I like playing, on good decks with good sound and a good crowd, I'd be happy to do it for beers. If I'm going to have to play chart **** I don't like, or play to an empty room, or play on awful gear, then I'd ask for something to make it worth my effort.

515 tripod · 01-09-2010 08:48PM

Hi guys,

There appears to be a little bit of confusion in this thread. Due to a hectic few weeks I haven't been on this site much so I am here now to clear things up.

First up this is not a DJ competition. We would like you to send over your DJ mixes, if they tick the boxes then we would like you to come and play for us. If none of the mixes tick the box then we will continue to use the DJs we always have. There are no shortage of DJs that want to and are happy to play at 515!

Second, the DJ slots going are not for the main stage. If we like your mix, you will be asked to come and play the back room. This is very much a work your way up from the bottom gig. If you have a problem with this, then best not send over your mixes. If all goes well over time, then there is nothing to say you wont be in the main room at some stage but at the same time there is no guarantee.

Third, there is no pay for this gig. When you have a following and feel there is demand for your talent with us then we can talk €'s. TO be honest, I was a bit shocked at some of the comments in this thread. I dont know any (up & coming/bedroom) DJ's, unless they have demand or are in some way established in the scene to ask for cash. I DJ and for years I never got paid. I was just happy to play. Maybe times have changed.....if this is the case, again....dont send over your mixes.

Fourth & Final, If we like your mix and you are asked to come and play then you must bring a certain amount of people on a reduced guestlist and you must do your share of getting the word out.
So if you bring people along and you work at getting the word out your playing ect then there is more of a chance of you coming up from the bottom.

Some people may not be happy with the arrangement but this is the way it is. So if you have any problems with the above, best not send over a mix.

Looking forward to seeing were this thread goes now

515

electrogrimey · 01-09-2010 09:14PM

515 tripod wrote: »

If you are asked to come and play then you must bring a certain amount of people on a reduced guestlist

Is getting people to the club not the promoter's job, not the DJ's? When you book international DJs do you tell them they can't play unless they have 30 people on the cheaplist? It's the promoter's job to get people there, and the DJ's job to entertain the people there.

515 tripod wrote: »

if you bring people along and you work at getting the word out your playing ect then there is a chance of you coming up from the bottom.

Should a DJ not rise to the top because they are a good DJ, not because they're a good promoter?

What we're taking about in this thread is pretty much summed up in this thread:

http://www.inthemix.com.au/features/47502/Is_the_promoter_DJ_killing_our_club_scene

I've no problem with not getting paid for gigs, I don't think a DJ who hasn't got a release should expect to get paid. Telling DJs they can't play if they don't bring enough people is ridiculous though.

IrishOlly · 01-09-2010 09:24PM

515 tripod wrote: »

Hi guys,

There appears to be a little bit of confusion in this thread. Due to a hectic few weeks I haven't been on this site much so I am here now to clear things up.

First up this is not a DJ competition. We would like you to send over your DJ mixes, if they tick the boxes then we would like you to come and play for us. If none of the mixes tick the box then we will continue to use the DJs we always have. There are no shortage of DJs that want to and are happy to play at 515!

Second, the DJ slots going are not for the main stage. If we like your mix, you will be asked to come and play the back room. This is very much a work your way up from the bottom gig. If you have a problem with this, then best not send over your mixes. If all goes well over time, then there is nothing to say you wont be in the main room at some stage but at the same time there is no guarantee.

Third, there is no pay for this gig. When you have a following and feel there is demand for your talent with us then we can talk €'s. TO be honest, I was a bit shocked at some of the comments in this thread. I dont know any (up & coming/bedroom) DJ's, unless they have demand or are in some way established in the scene to ask for cash. I DJ and for years I never got paid. I was just happy to play. Maybe times have changed.....if this is the case, again....dont send over your mixes.

Fourth & Final, If we like your mix and you are asked to come and play then you must bring a certain amount of people on a reduced guestlist and you must do your share of getting the word out.
So if you bring people along and you work at getting the word out your playing ect then there is more of a chance of you coming up from the bottom.

Some people may not be happy with the arrangement but this is the way it is. So if you have any problems with the above, best not send over a mix.

Looking forward to seeing were this thread goes now

515

Kudos for coming on and letting people know exactly where they stand.

Basically what it boils down to is djs will be expected to play for free, promote the gig, bring people and if they are LUCKY might get to play in the blessed confides of the Tripod!!

If people can't read between the lines of what this is then good luck to them.

The whole ''be lucky to get a gig'' ethos is complete crap. Its got nothing to do wit their ''following'' as was referred to. If you bring down 30 people to that club and they pay on average 5 quid in then you should be getting paid. Simple as because you are making the promoter money.

Not to be bad but look at the lineup for 515 vs Trainwreck. Randomers. Whats the point. Its just exploitation of people who don't have enough talent to produce music and will never get anywhere djiing. Wether you like it or not its the constant conveyor belt of desperate djs who will continue to make places like Pod money.

If the promoter can't even be bothered to give a token 20 euro then good luck. Stay well clear because as most people who have dealt with 515 will tell you. You'll get burned in the end.

515 tripod · 01-09-2010 09:43PM

IrishOlly wrote: »

Kudos for coming on and letting people know exactly where they stand.

if they are LUCKY might get to play in the blessed confides of the Tripod!!

* Thats not really how we feel about it, but by all means if you would like to play in the Tripod, send over a mix and we will see what we can do, if your style ect suits ours.

''be lucky to get a gig'' ethos is complete crap.

** Again not our ethos more like bring something to the table with you!

Not to be bad but look at the lineup for 515 vs Trainwreck.

*** This was a summer time arrangement while 515 shared the POD with Trainwreck until the winter line-ups kicked and we moved back to the Tripod

.

I cant do the whole muti-qoute thing so this is my best shot.

515 tripod · 01-09-2010 09:51PM

electrogrimey wrote: »

Is getting people to the club not the promoter's job, not the DJ's? When you book international DJs do you tell them they can't play unless they have 30 people on the cheaplist? It's the promoter's job to get people there, and the DJ's job to entertain the people there.

Should a DJ not rise to the top because they are a good DJ, not because they're a good promoter?

What we're taking about in this thread is pretty much summed up in this thread:

http://www.inthemix.com.au/features/47502/Is_the_promoter_DJ_killing_our_club_scene

I've no problem with not getting paid for gigs, I don't think a DJ who hasn't got a release should expect to get paid. Telling DJs they can't play if they don't bring enough people is ridiculous though.

I didnt see your post first...

Ah, I find it amazing that an up and coming DJ would expect a gig to be delivered to there face. Whats wrong with asking them to pull there weight a little. I defo did for years when I was starting off DJing and looking for gigs.

About the international acts bringing people along with them.....come on now. They are established and people come to see them.

515 tripod · 01-09-2010 10:26PM

electrogrimey wrote: »

http://www.inthemix.com.au/features/47502/Is_the_promoter_DJ_killing_our_club_scene

Thats a great read, brings up some great points!

As for booking sales people more so than DJs, we get more than one mix of potential DJs and do a bit of research, most of them time the DJs dont even know we do. We aren't looking for a massive amount of DJs fast, we are looking for the proper fit.

We aren't interested in DJs(Dancers more like it) that got Traktor a few months ago and now looking for stardom. We try or best to stay well clear of that!

Its unfortunate that some really good DJs wont get a shot because they can't bring people but this is the way things are at the minute.

By the sounds of that article its not just an Irish problem! It appears to have had a snowball effect!

515 are looking for DJs

Comments