4 Israelis shot dead - Peace talks in danger?

dlofnep · 01-09-2010 06:29AM #1

Hamas claimed responsibility for an attack which lead to the deaths of 4 Israelis, including a pregnant woman. Just as peace talks are about to begin. If Hamas wanted to show leadership with peace talks about to begin, they wouldn't have done this. Clearly, they had a different plan. A moronic move on their behalf, and they should be ashamed of themselves.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11148097

Any balance going into peace talks is now damaged IMO. I doubt anything significant can be achieved. Israel needs to take responsibility also for refusing to move on the illegal settlement issue, where this attack took place. Until the settlement issue is resolved - there will not be any peace. This is the reality of the situation.

I only fear that this attack will lead to more back and forth attacks, leading to deaths of more innocents.

Abbas & Netanyahu are meeting with Clinton & Obama this week. Obama appears to be optimistic in talks. George Mitchel stated "It's very important to create a sense that this has a definite concluding point. And we believe that it can be done," he added.

I think most people feel the same way. They have a year to reach an agreement. As always, the illegal settlement issue will probably be the deal maker or breaker. Israel will have to compromise on them. It is in their best interests to end their illegal settlements. It's safer for their citizens, and promotes a more peaceful environment.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 01-09-2010 06:42AM

dlofnep wrote: »

. Until the settlement issue is resolved - there will not be any peace. This is the reality of the situation.
.

And its a pity politicians don't share our view's on this, both here at home and abroad in Israel.

There was a similar attack only a few days ago, luckily these people were actually saved and brought to a place of safety by a Palestinian man - HERE.

Hopefully these attacks don't derail the talks, but tbh I've little faith in both the Israeli, and Palestinian leadership.

OhNoYouDidn't · 01-09-2010 09:56AM

terrible act, illegal settlers or not, you shouldn't be machine gunning a pregnant woman up full stop.

However, isn't it interesting that the first lethal attack against settlers in many many months is grounds to stall the peace talks. Not the near daily fatal attacks on Palestinian civilians.

Interesting that.

digme · 01-09-2010 10:10AM

since the isrealis shoot kids every day of the week i dont see why it makes news at all really... this peace process is bs they do it every year, give them back their country..

The Saint · 01-09-2010 10:45AM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Not the near daily fatal attacks on Palestinian civilians.

Interesting that.

digme wrote: »

since the isrealis shoot kids every day of the week i dont see why it makes news at all really.

There is no need to exaggerate the situation in the OPT. There is no daily fatal attacks or kids shot at every day of the week, especially not in the West Bank where the situation regarding attacks has relatively been very low. Things are bad enough regarding other issues without exaggerating things and losing credibility.

Anyway, the people who did this are animals and hopefully this situation will not escalate the situation in the West Bank or derail talks (which I have little optimism in anyway).

OhNoYouDidn't · 01-09-2010 11:03AM

The Saint wrote: »

There is no need to exaggerate the situation in the OPT. There is no daily fatal attacks or kids shot at every day of the week, especially not in the West Bank where the situation regarding attacks has relatively been very low. Things are bad enough regarding other issues without exaggerating things and losing credibility.

Anyway, the people who did this are animals and hopefully this situation will not escalate the situation in the West Bank or derail talks (which I have little optimism in anyway).

I don't think thats fair. The OP is clealy pointing to a heirarchy of victimhood in the area. The illegal settlers and the locals are constantly having a pop at each other, and the death toll is very much stacked on the Palestinian side. This has no real impact and then when Hamas committ an attack on settlers, suddenly the peace process is in danger?

Thats a dangerous narrative.

Nodin · 01-09-2010 11:14AM

digme wrote: »

since the isrealis shoot kids every day of the week i dont see why it makes news at all really... this peace process is bs they do it every year, give them back their country..

Shooting unarmed civillian women - settlers or no - is beyond the pale.

RDM_83 again · 01-09-2010 11:22AM

Explain to me why its worse to shoot an unarmed civilian woman than an unarmed civilian man???

and if its a case of risk there has been a significant number of female suicide bombers

Nodin · 01-09-2010 11:27AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Explain to me why its worse to shoot an unarmed civilian woman than an unarmed civilian man???

Call me old fashioned.

Settler men are usually armed anyway.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

and if its a case of risk there has been a significant number of female suicide bombers

Not from the settler movement........

The Saint · 01-09-2010 11:33AM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don't think thats fair. The OP is clealy pointing to a heirarchy of victimhood in the area. The illegal settlers and the locals are constantly having a pop at each other, and the death toll is very much stacked on the Palestinian side. This has no real impact and then when Hamas committ an attack on settlers, suddenly the peace process is in danger?

Thats a dangerous narrative.

I'm not arguing against this. What I'm saying is that there is no reason to state untruths to back up your arguement. There's no need for exaggeration. Things are bad enough in the West Bank.

Anyway, these killings cannot be justified. They are completely counter productive and it will be Palestinians who will bear the brunt of any escalation.

wes · 01-09-2010 12:29PM

The peace talks were already pretty much DOA as it stands, as Abbas said he would pull out if Netanyahu didn't renew the limited freeze in the West Bank. So the talks may very well end in a few days as its stands.

Of course, what Hamas done here was terrible, and completely wrong. While the peace talks seem very likely to fail, there is no need to make things any worse.

BlaasForRafa · 01-09-2010 12:48PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

terrible act, illegal settlers or not, you shouldn't be machine gunning a pregnant woman up full stop.

However, isn't it interesting that the first lethal attack against settlers in many many months is grounds to stall the peace talks. Not the near daily fatal attacks on Palestinian civilians.

Interesting that.

give us some more details on the "near daily" fatal attacks on palestinian civilians.

dvpower · 01-09-2010 01:52PM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

give us some more details on the "near daily" fatal attacks on palestinian civilians.

B'tselem collate the details of these.

I'd say 'near weekly' is a bit closer to the mark 'though, although with more than 6,000 in the last 10 years that averages at around two a day.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

RepublicanEagle · 01-09-2010 02:18PM

I think the way to resolve most of the problems, would be the unlikely situation if Jerusalem was created into an independent city state ruled by a council who represent all the communities.

RepublicanEagle · 01-09-2010 02:22PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Explain to me why its worse to shoot an unarmed civilian woman than an unarmed civilian man???

and if its a case of risk there has been a significant number of female suicide bombers

What about if the woman was pregnant, or do you think that does not matter since she is only carrying a "fetus"?

changes · 01-09-2010 02:28PM

The israelis normally always respond pretty heavily to these actions, way in excess of the number of their dead. So i wouldn't be surprised if 20 or more palistinians are killed in the coming days in some so called operation to flush out the perpetrators.

wes · 01-09-2010 03:17PM

Just a quick update on this:

West Bank attack overshadows new Middle East talks

Palestinian security forces have mounted a huge operation in the West Bank to catch the killers of four Israeli settlers shot on Tuesday.

Dozens of members of Hamas, which said it carried out the attack, have been arrested.

The killings came ahead of the first direct talks between Israeli and Palestinian leaders in two years.

Officials are gathering in Washington for discussions, before the Israeli and Palestinian leaders meet on Thursday.

US, Palestinian and Israeli officials have said they will not allow the attack, near Hebron, to undermine the talks.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon condemned the killings as a "blatant attempt" to undermine the upcoming negotiations.

Click here for full story

I do find the settlers response to be pretty funny, as they will restart construction on the West Bank, due to the fact that they have been violating the freeze for a while now in anyways.

Also, I do see the huge difference between the response of the PA to the murder of innocent Israeli's to Israelis response to similar incidents involving there own soldiers or settlers, where very often those responsible are let off with a slap on the wrist if that.

**edit**
Hopefully calmer heads on both sides will prevail, and that this doesn't turn into a tit for tat spiral of violence as it often does in this conflict.

RDM_83 again · 01-09-2010 03:29PM

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

What about if the woman was pregnant, or do you think that does not matter since she is only carrying a "fetus"?

Presumably for the people carrying out the attack this would be a bonus considering this is situation is different to a "normal" conflict as the settlers could be part of the armed occupation.
(not a new concept former soldiers were used by the romans to colonise newly conquered areas)

Do wonder about the motives of the attack at this time as far as I know there hasn't been many rocket attacks from gaza etc.

Archie D Bunker · 01-09-2010 03:42PM

wes wrote: »

Also, I do see the huge difference between the response of the PA to the murder of innocent Israeli's to Israelis response to similar incidents involving there own soldiers or settlers, where very often those responsible are let off with a slap on the wrist if that.

Well, we are yet to see if these arrests actually help in capturing the killers responsible, and what will happen to them if they are actually caught.
Personally I believe there is a much better chance that the killers responsible will be dealt with by the Israelis themselves.

At least now there is finally some joy and happiness in Gaza:

"About 3,000 people joined a rally in Gaza to celebrate the attack. Hamas military wing spokesman Abu Obeida was among them and told The Associated Press: "The Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100901/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_talks

Memnoch · 01-09-2010 04:00PM

Hamas are a bunch of idiots. When are they going to realise that they will never achieve anything with violence?

With that said the PA has cooperated as much as they can in trying to maintain peace yet illegal Israeli settlements on the west bank continue to stand and they planned to build more anyway.

Both Israel and the PA need to rise above Hamas and their actions to prove that there can be a peaceful solution to the situation. Though the right wing psychos in the Israeli government will likely just use this as an excuse to cripple a peace process they don't really have an interest in anyway.

OhNoYouDidn't · 01-09-2010 04:02PM

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Personally I believe there is a much better chance that the killers responsible will be dealt with by the Israelis themselves.

Crime didn't happen in Israel....

OhNoYouDidn't · 01-09-2010 04:03PM

Memnoch wrote: »

Hamas are a bunch of idiots. When are they going to realise that they will never achieve anything with violence?

With that said the PA has cooperated as much as they can in trying to maintain peace yet illegal Israeli settlements on the west bank continue to stand and they planned to build more anyway.

Both Israel and the PA need to rise above Hamas and their actions to prove that there can be a peaceful solution to the situation. Though the right wing psychos in the Israeli government will likely just use this as an excuse to cripple a peace process they don't really have an interest in anyway.

Voting for the moderate Fatah achieved nothing. So they voted for the more militany opposition. Not exactly a difficult thought process to follow.

Archie D Bunker · 01-09-2010 04:28PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Voting for the moderate Fatah achieved nothing. So they voted for the more militany opposition. Not exactly a difficult thought process to follow.

And they achieved so much more by voting for the militant opposition:rolleyes:

Memnoch · 01-09-2010 05:15PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Voting for the moderate Fatah achieved nothing. So they voted for the more militany opposition. Not exactly a difficult thought process to follow.

Yeah I get it. For peace to work you need BOTH sides.

My view on the rationale of the Israeli government is that they have no interest in peace. Yes they sustain casualties, but I think they see them as a necessary sacrifice to eventually wiping the palestinians off the face of the map.

So they are happy for any peace process to be scuppered and they are happy for the idiots in Hamas to keep doing what they are doing as it gives them excuse to retaliate and take more and more territory via the settlements.

But despite this, I think the only way the palestinians have any hope is through peaceful protest and non-violence.

Because any violent response just gives Netanyahoo and his cronies more opportunity to keep furthering their extremist agenda.

BlaasForRafa · 01-09-2010 05:54PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Voting for the moderate Fatah achieved nothing. So they voted for the more militany opposition. Not exactly a difficult thought process to follow.

Voting for Fatah did NOT achieve nothing and this is the kind of lie that Hamas would like everyone to believe. The standard of living on the West Bank is higher now than it was before the last palestinian elections, Fatah have delivered significant economic and security benefits to the people of the west bank.

Sand · 01-09-2010 06:00PM

Fairly dispiriting, and a tragedy for the victims families whatever the political implications. That Hamas as an institution describes the killing of pregnant women as heroic simply displays their own moral degradation.

Hamas cant have been unaware of what the impact would be on the eve of the talks. Hopefully the participants interested in peace will remember that and take it as a spur to work to bring about a workable peace.

Memnoch · 01-09-2010 06:10PM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Voting for Fatah did NOT achieve nothing and this is the kind of lie that Hamas would like everyone to believe. The standard of living on the West Bank is higher now than it was before the last palestinian elections, Fatah have delivered significant economic and security benefits to the people of the west bank.

Yet settlements on the West Bank still stand on occupied territory, with plans to build more.

OhNoYouDidn't · 01-09-2010 06:31PM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Voting for Fatah did NOT achieve nothing and this is the kind of lie that Hamas would like everyone to believe. The standard of living on the West Bank is higher now than it was before the last palestinian elections, Fatah have delivered significant economic and security benefits to the people of the west bank.

It achieved nothing on the substantive and key issue for the Palestinians. The occupation and its deleterious spin offs.

Fatah talked and talked, nothing happened, a wall went up, illegal settlements got bigger and more frequent. So the Palestinians went for plan B as unfortunately Israel did not want peace with the moderates.

I'm not a big fan of Hamas, but I won't patronise the Palestinians free and fair choice of leaders like some will.

dlofnep · 01-09-2010 08:03PM

Sand wrote: »

Fairly dispiriting, and a tragedy for the victims families whatever the political implications. That Hamas as an institution describes the killing of pregnant women as heroic simply displays their own moral degradation.

Hamas cant have been unaware of what the impact would be on the eve of the talks. Hopefully the participants interested in peace will remember that and take it as a spur to work to bring about a workable peace.

Agreed. The fact that they are cheering on the death of a pregnant women is disturbing. It is really going to hinder any possible agreements that may have occurred otherwise. Although tbh, something tells me that no agreement will be reached either way. The issue of settlements is the deal-breaker that Israel isn't willing to budge on.

wes · 01-09-2010 08:06PM

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Well, we are yet to see if these arrests actually help in capturing the killers responsible, and what will happen to them if they are actually caught.
Personally I believe there is a much better chance that the killers responsible will be dealt with by the Israelis themselves.

Well, at least the PA are trying to catch them.

Abu Mariam · 01-09-2010 08:17PM

The Saint wrote: »

There is no need to exaggerate the situation in the OPT. There is no daily fatal attacks or kids shot at every day of the week, especially not in the West Bank where the situation regarding attacks has relatively been very low. Things are bad enough regarding other issues without exaggerating things and losing credibility.

Anyway, the people who did this are animals and hopefully this situation will not escalate the situation in the West Bank or derail talks (which I have little optimism in anyway).

Look at this

4 Israelis shot dead - Peace talks in danger?

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