4 Israelis shot dead - Peace talks in danger?

dlofnep

Hamas claimed responsibility for an attack which lead to the deaths of 4 Israelis, including a pregnant woman. Just as peace talks are about to begin. If Hamas wanted to show leadership with peace talks about to begin, they wouldn't have done this. Clearly, they had a different plan. A moronic move on their behalf, and they should be ashamed of themselves.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11148097

Any balance going into peace talks is now damaged IMO. I doubt anything significant can be achieved. Israel needs to take responsibility also for refusing to move on the illegal settlement issue, where this attack took place. Until the settlement issue is resolved - there will not be any peace. This is the reality of the situation.

I only fear that this attack will lead to more back and forth attacks, leading to deaths of more innocents.

Abbas & Netanyahu are meeting with Clinton & Obama this week. Obama appears to be optimistic in talks. George Mitchel stated "It's very important to create a sense that this has a definite concluding point. And we believe that it can be done," he added.

I think most people feel the same way. They have a year to reach an agreement. As always, the illegal settlement issue will probably be the deal maker or breaker. Israel will have to compromise on them. It is in their best interests to end their illegal settlements. It's safer for their citizens, and promotes a more peaceful environment.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

. Until the settlement issue is resolved - there will not be any peace. This is the reality of the situation.
.

And its a pity politicians don't share our view's on this, both here at home and abroad in Israel.

There was a similar attack only a few days ago, luckily these people were actually saved and brought to a place of safety by a Palestinian man - HERE.

Hopefully these attacks don't derail the talks, but tbh I've little faith in both the Israeli, and Palestinian leadership.

OhNoYouDidn't

terrible act, illegal settlers or not, you shouldn't be machine gunning a pregnant woman up full stop.

However, isn't it interesting that the first lethal attack against settlers in many many months is grounds to stall the peace talks. Not the near daily fatal attacks on Palestinian civilians.

Interesting that.

digme

since the isrealis shoot kids every day of the week i dont see why it makes news at all really... this peace process is bs they do it every year, give them back their country..

The Saint

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Not the near daily fatal attacks on Palestinian civilians.

Interesting that.

digme wrote: »

since the isrealis shoot kids every day of the week i dont see why it makes news at all really.

There is no need to exaggerate the situation in the OPT. There is no daily fatal attacks or kids shot at every day of the week, especially not in the West Bank where the situation regarding attacks has relatively been very low. Things are bad enough regarding other issues without exaggerating things and losing credibility.

Anyway, the people who did this are animals and hopefully this situation will not escalate the situation in the West Bank or derail talks (which I have little optimism in anyway).

OhNoYouDidn't

The Saint wrote: »

There is no need to exaggerate the situation in the OPT. There is no daily fatal attacks or kids shot at every day of the week, especially not in the West Bank where the situation regarding attacks has relatively been very low. Things are bad enough regarding other issues without exaggerating things and losing credibility.

Anyway, the people who did this are animals and hopefully this situation will not escalate the situation in the West Bank or derail talks (which I have little optimism in anyway).

I don't think thats fair. The OP is clealy pointing to a heirarchy of victimhood in the area. The illegal settlers and the locals are constantly having a pop at each other, and the death toll is very much stacked on the Palestinian side. This has no real impact and then when Hamas committ an attack on settlers, suddenly the peace process is in danger?

Thats a dangerous narrative.

Nodin

digme wrote: »

since the isrealis shoot kids every day of the week i dont see why it makes news at all really... this peace process is bs they do it every year, give them back their country..

Shooting unarmed civillian women - settlers or no - is beyond the pale.

RDM_83 again

Explain to me why its worse to shoot an unarmed civilian woman than an unarmed civilian man???

and if its a case of risk there has been a significant number of female suicide bombers

Nodin

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Explain to me why its worse to shoot an unarmed civilian woman than an unarmed civilian man???

Call me old fashioned.

Settler men are usually armed anyway.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

and if its a case of risk there has been a significant number of female suicide bombers

Not from the settler movement........

The Saint

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don't think thats fair. The OP is clealy pointing to a heirarchy of victimhood in the area. The illegal settlers and the locals are constantly having a pop at each other, and the death toll is very much stacked on the Palestinian side. This has no real impact and then when Hamas committ an attack on settlers, suddenly the peace process is in danger?

Thats a dangerous narrative.

I'm not arguing against this. What I'm saying is that there is no reason to state untruths to back up your arguement. There's no need for exaggeration. Things are bad enough in the West Bank.

Anyway, these killings cannot be justified. They are completely counter productive and it will be Palestinians who will bear the brunt of any escalation.

wes

The peace talks were already pretty much DOA as it stands, as Abbas said he would pull out if Netanyahu didn't renew the limited freeze in the West Bank. So the talks may very well end in a few days as its stands.

Of course, what Hamas done here was terrible, and completely wrong. While the peace talks seem very likely to fail, there is no need to make things any worse.

BlaasForRafa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

terrible act, illegal settlers or not, you shouldn't be machine gunning a pregnant woman up full stop.

However, isn't it interesting that the first lethal attack against settlers in many many months is grounds to stall the peace talks. Not the near daily fatal attacks on Palestinian civilians.

Interesting that.

give us some more details on the "near daily" fatal attacks on palestinian civilians.

dvpower

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

give us some more details on the "near daily" fatal attacks on palestinian civilians.

B'tselem collate the details of these.

I'd say 'near weekly' is a bit closer to the mark 'though, although with more than 6,000 in the last 10 years that averages at around two a day.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

RepublicanEagle

I think the way to resolve most of the problems, would be the unlikely situation if Jerusalem was created into an independent city state ruled by a council who represent all the communities.

RepublicanEagle

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Explain to me why its worse to shoot an unarmed civilian woman than an unarmed civilian man???

and if its a case of risk there has been a significant number of female suicide bombers

What about if the woman was pregnant, or do you think that does not matter since she is only carrying a "fetus"?

changes

The israelis normally always respond pretty heavily to these actions, way in excess of the number of their dead. So i wouldn't be surprised if 20 or more palistinians are killed in the coming days in some so called operation to flush out the perpetrators.

wes

Just a quick update on this:

West Bank attack overshadows new Middle East talks

Palestinian security forces have mounted a huge operation in the West Bank to catch the killers of four Israeli settlers shot on Tuesday.

Dozens of members of Hamas, which said it carried out the attack, have been arrested.

The killings came ahead of the first direct talks between Israeli and Palestinian leaders in two years.

Officials are gathering in Washington for discussions, before the Israeli and Palestinian leaders meet on Thursday.

US, Palestinian and Israeli officials have said they will not allow the attack, near Hebron, to undermine the talks.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon condemned the killings as a "blatant attempt" to undermine the upcoming negotiations.

Click here for full story

I do find the settlers response to be pretty funny, as they will restart construction on the West Bank, due to the fact that they have been violating the freeze for a while now in anyways.

Also, I do see the huge difference between the response of the PA to the murder of innocent Israeli's to Israelis response to similar incidents involving there own soldiers or settlers, where very often those responsible are let off with a slap on the wrist if that.

**edit**
Hopefully calmer heads on both sides will prevail, and that this doesn't turn into a tit for tat spiral of violence as it often does in this conflict.

RDM_83 again

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

What about if the woman was pregnant, or do you think that does not matter since she is only carrying a "fetus"?

Presumably for the people carrying out the attack this would be a bonus considering this is situation is different to a "normal" conflict as the settlers could be part of the armed occupation.
(not a new concept former soldiers were used by the romans to colonise newly conquered areas)

Do wonder about the motives of the attack at this time as far as I know there hasn't been many rocket attacks from gaza etc.

Archie D Bunker

wes wrote: »

Also, I do see the huge difference between the response of the PA to the murder of innocent Israeli's to Israelis response to similar incidents involving there own soldiers or settlers, where very often those responsible are let off with a slap on the wrist if that.

Well, we are yet to see if these arrests actually help in capturing the killers responsible, and what will happen to them if they are actually caught.
Personally I believe there is a much better chance that the killers responsible will be dealt with by the Israelis themselves.

At least now there is finally some joy and happiness in Gaza:

"About 3,000 people joined a rally in Gaza to celebrate the attack. Hamas military wing spokesman Abu Obeida was among them and told The Associated Press: "The Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100901/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_talks

Memnoch

Hamas are a bunch of idiots. When are they going to realise that they will never achieve anything with violence?

With that said the PA has cooperated as much as they can in trying to maintain peace yet illegal Israeli settlements on the west bank continue to stand and they planned to build more anyway.

Both Israel and the PA need to rise above Hamas and their actions to prove that there can be a peaceful solution to the situation. Though the right wing psychos in the Israeli government will likely just use this as an excuse to cripple a peace process they don't really have an interest in anyway.

OhNoYouDidn't

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Personally I believe there is a much better chance that the killers responsible will be dealt with by the Israelis themselves.

Crime didn't happen in Israel....

OhNoYouDidn't

Memnoch wrote: »

Hamas are a bunch of idiots. When are they going to realise that they will never achieve anything with violence?

With that said the PA has cooperated as much as they can in trying to maintain peace yet illegal Israeli settlements on the west bank continue to stand and they planned to build more anyway.

Both Israel and the PA need to rise above Hamas and their actions to prove that there can be a peaceful solution to the situation. Though the right wing psychos in the Israeli government will likely just use this as an excuse to cripple a peace process they don't really have an interest in anyway.

Voting for the moderate Fatah achieved nothing. So they voted for the more militany opposition. Not exactly a difficult thought process to follow.

Archie D Bunker

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Voting for the moderate Fatah achieved nothing. So they voted for the more militany opposition. Not exactly a difficult thought process to follow.

And they achieved so much more by voting for the militant opposition:rolleyes:

Memnoch

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Voting for the moderate Fatah achieved nothing. So they voted for the more militany opposition. Not exactly a difficult thought process to follow.

Yeah I get it. For peace to work you need BOTH sides.

My view on the rationale of the Israeli government is that they have no interest in peace. Yes they sustain casualties, but I think they see them as a necessary sacrifice to eventually wiping the palestinians off the face of the map.

So they are happy for any peace process to be scuppered and they are happy for the idiots in Hamas to keep doing what they are doing as it gives them excuse to retaliate and take more and more territory via the settlements.

But despite this, I think the only way the palestinians have any hope is through peaceful protest and non-violence.

Because any violent response just gives Netanyahoo and his cronies more opportunity to keep furthering their extremist agenda.

BlaasForRafa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Voting for the moderate Fatah achieved nothing. So they voted for the more militany opposition. Not exactly a difficult thought process to follow.

Voting for Fatah did NOT achieve nothing and this is the kind of lie that Hamas would like everyone to believe. The standard of living on the West Bank is higher now than it was before the last palestinian elections, Fatah have delivered significant economic and security benefits to the people of the west bank.

Sand

Fairly dispiriting, and a tragedy for the victims families whatever the political implications. That Hamas as an institution describes the killing of pregnant women as heroic simply displays their own moral degradation.

Hamas cant have been unaware of what the impact would be on the eve of the talks. Hopefully the participants interested in peace will remember that and take it as a spur to work to bring about a workable peace.

Memnoch

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Voting for Fatah did NOT achieve nothing and this is the kind of lie that Hamas would like everyone to believe. The standard of living on the West Bank is higher now than it was before the last palestinian elections, Fatah have delivered significant economic and security benefits to the people of the west bank.

Yet settlements on the West Bank still stand on occupied territory, with plans to build more.

OhNoYouDidn't

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Voting for Fatah did NOT achieve nothing and this is the kind of lie that Hamas would like everyone to believe. The standard of living on the West Bank is higher now than it was before the last palestinian elections, Fatah have delivered significant economic and security benefits to the people of the west bank.

It achieved nothing on the substantive and key issue for the Palestinians. The occupation and its deleterious spin offs.

Fatah talked and talked, nothing happened, a wall went up, illegal settlements got bigger and more frequent. So the Palestinians went for plan B as unfortunately Israel did not want peace with the moderates.

I'm not a big fan of Hamas, but I won't patronise the Palestinians free and fair choice of leaders like some will.

dlofnep

Sand wrote: »

Fairly dispiriting, and a tragedy for the victims families whatever the political implications. That Hamas as an institution describes the killing of pregnant women as heroic simply displays their own moral degradation.

Hamas cant have been unaware of what the impact would be on the eve of the talks. Hopefully the participants interested in peace will remember that and take it as a spur to work to bring about a workable peace.

Agreed. The fact that they are cheering on the death of a pregnant women is disturbing. It is really going to hinder any possible agreements that may have occurred otherwise. Although tbh, something tells me that no agreement will be reached either way. The issue of settlements is the deal-breaker that Israel isn't willing to budge on.

wes

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

Well, we are yet to see if these arrests actually help in capturing the killers responsible, and what will happen to them if they are actually caught.
Personally I believe there is a much better chance that the killers responsible will be dealt with by the Israelis themselves.

Well, at least the PA are trying to catch them.

Abu Mariam

The Saint wrote: »

There is no need to exaggerate the situation in the OPT. There is no daily fatal attacks or kids shot at every day of the week, especially not in the West Bank where the situation regarding attacks has relatively been very low. Things are bad enough regarding other issues without exaggerating things and losing credibility.

Anyway, the people who did this are animals and hopefully this situation will not escalate the situation in the West Bank or derail talks (which I have little optimism in anyway).

Look at this

wes

Abu Mariam wrote: »

Look at this

Those pictures aren't really helpful to the current discussion. I think everyone is aware of Israel's atrocities against Palestinians. At the end of the day both sides need stop there violence if there is to be any hope of peace.

The Saint

Abu Mariam wrote: »

Look at this

It seems you might have misread my post. I was stating the current situation in the West Bank, not the situation of Gaza in 2008-2009 which I'm fully aware of, is relatively quiet with low casualty rates. You can read my posts from around the time if you want to know what I have said on Gaza.

However, it is completely irrelivant to what I stated which is entirely accurate. That doesn't mean that the situation in the West Bank is good, it is not, but there are very low Palestinian casualties and there is little military activity being undertaken there.

Iwasfrozen

Abu, as another poster had pointed out, spamming pictures doesn't really help your case. We are all aware of some of the atrocities taking place against Palastinians in Israel. Also frankly some of them are a little to shocking for the politics board where children may be browsing.

The Saint

Another shooting attack in a similar fashion near Ramallah. Two people wounded. I can see Fatah clamping down hard on Hamas in the West Bank. You'd hope these people would just fcuk off and let peace talks advance. However, that's not in Hamas' interests.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/2-israelis-wounded-in-second-west-bank-shooting-attack-in-two-days-1.311583

Scofflaw

Abu Mariam wrote: »

Look at this

Abu Mariam, I've deleted your multiple photo posts. Please refrain from simply posting posts full of graphic images instead of discussing the issue. This is a discussion forum, not a "wall of shame". If you want to post a load of photos, please get a Flickr account and link to it.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Mahatma coat

everyone Knows that Israel is not interested in peace, Israel is interested in Ethnicaly cleansing the Palestinian territories so that it can create its great Single Jewish state.

What annoys me is that hamass are so utterly Sh!te at killing people, If they were able to Kill 5-10 illegal settlers a day EVERY DAY then Israel would have to sit up and pay attention, then maybe the settlers would comprehend the seriousness of their actions, then maybe sanity might eventually prevail in the area, Hamass need to up the ante if they want to be taken seriously. A situation needs to be created where the prevailing idea amongst Israelis is that the cost of settlements is too high, at the moment the only people dying in any real numbers are the Palestinians, once this changes and There are Daily Funeral processions wit a dozen coffins, maybe just maybe those in charge might get the message

Archie D Bunker

Mahatma coat wrote: »

everyone Knows that Israel is not interested in peace, Israel is interested in Ethnicaly cleansing the Palestinian territories so that it can create its great Single Jewish state.

What annoys me is that hamass are so utterly Sh!te at killing people, If they were able to Kill 5-10 illegal settlers a day EVERY DAY then Israel would have to sit up and pay attention, then maybe the settlers would comprehend the seriousness of their actions, then maybe sanity might eventually prevail in the area, Hamass need to up the ante if they want to be taken seriously. A situation needs to be created where the prevailing idea amongst Israelis is that the cost of settlements is too high, at the moment the only people dying in any real numbers are the Palestinians, once this changes and There are Daily Funeral processions wit a dozen coffins, maybe just maybe those in charge might get the message

We can only hope that Hamas doesn't follow your "logic".
Haven't the Palestinians suffered enough?

OhNoYouDidn't

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

We can only hope that Hamas doesn't follow your "logic".
Haven't the Palestinians suffered enough?

From a narrow strategic point of view, its flawless logic. Things can't really get much worse for them, playing nice has failed and the settlers have carte blanche to behave exactly how they want. Insterting some consequences into the equation might change behaviours or even stem the demand for the expansion of the illegal settlements. If you know abusing the locals might get you a bullet, you will think twice.

Morally, its a slightly different story.

BlaasForRafa

everyone Knows that Israel is not interested in peace, Israel is interested in Ethnicaly cleansing the Palestinian territories so that it can create its great Single Jewish state.

That statement shows how ignorant you are about the people of Israel. There is a wide range of opinion on the question of settlements and to make broad sweeping statements like that is just pure hyperbole.

What annoys me is that hamass are so utterly Sh!te at killing people, If they were able to Kill 5-10 illegal settlers a day EVERY DAY then Israel would have to sit up and pay attention, then maybe the settlers would comprehend the seriousness of their actions, then maybe sanity might eventually prevail in the area, Hamass need to up the ante if they want to be taken seriously. A situation needs to be created where the prevailing idea amongst Israelis is that the cost of settlements is too high, at the moment the only people dying in any real numbers are the Palestinians, once this changes and There are Daily Funeral processions wit a dozen coffins, maybe just maybe those in charge might get the message

So you WANT settlers to be killed eh? That certainly shows what side of the argument you come from, even amongst the most hardened of Israel or Palestinian supporters on this board I've never seen anyone actually WANT people to be killed.

Abu Mariam

Scofflaw wrote: »

Abu Mariam, I've deleted your multiple photo posts. Please refrain from simply posting posts full of graphic images instead of discussing the issue. This is a discussion forum, not a "wall of shame". If you want to post a load of photos, please get a Flickr account and link to it.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw
Is it really so shocking ?
Is it sooo painful just merely seeing them in pixels ? What about those seeing them in real ? How about experiencing the trauma as victims ?
What about the children??
Typical (projection-denial-reaction formation) coping strategies. Commonly seen when people deal with such traumatic distant events.
Overall, I respect your view and thank you for the advice re. Flickr account.

BlaasForRafa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

From a narrow strategic point of view, its flawless logic. Things can't really get much worse for them, playing nice has failed and the settlers have carte blanche to behave exactly how they want. Insterting some consequences into the equation might change behaviours or even stem the demand for the expansion of the illegal settlements. If you know abusing the locals might get you a bullet, you will think twice.

Wrong. The standard of living in the west bank has gone up and the people there have actually had a couple of years of relative peace there and it seems like they like it. Now Hamas come in with their Iranian supported political agenda and try to balls that up. What you advocate would only bring the West Bank down again and thats bad for ALL the people there.

As for the settlers, they seem like they have their way at the moment but that can be changed in an instant. Ariel Sharon got rid of the Gaza settlements at the stroke of a pen and that can be done again....if the deal is right.

BlaasForRafa

Abu Mariam wrote: »

Scofflaw
Is it really so shocking ?
Is it sooo painful just merely seeing them in pixels ? What about those seeing them in real ? How about experiencing the trauma as victims ?
What about the children??

Since you love pictures so much an all.

OhNoYouDidn't

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Wrong. The standard of living in the west bank has gone up and the people there have actually had a couple of years of relative peace there and it seems like they like it. Now Hamas come in with their Iranian supported political agenda and try to balls that up. What you advocate would only bring the West Bank down again and thats bad for ALL the people there.

As for the settlers, they seem like they have their way at the moment but that can be changed in an instant. Ariel Sharon got rid of the Gaza settlements at the stroke of a pen and that can be done again....if the deal is right.

Were aren't actually disagreeing. All Hamas are doing is reminding everyone that they exist and are capable of mounting operations in the West Bank. Is leverage.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Wrong. The standard of living in the west bank has gone up and the people there have actually had a couple of years of relative peace there and it seems like they like it. Now Hamas come in with their Iranian supported political agenda and try to balls that up. What you advocate would only bring the West Bank down again and thats bad for ALL the people there.

As for the settlers, they seem like they have their way at the moment but that can be changed in an instant. Ariel Sharon got rid of the Gaza settlements at the stroke of a pen and that can be done again....if the deal is right.

Its funny, but you are of course wrong...

The settlements are still going up and then there is the apartheid wall, and the Palestinians in the West Bank aren't doing as well as you claim:

From United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)


--SNIP--
Water – a fundamental child right
Water scarcity is among the most severe hardships in “Area C”, which covers 60 per cent of the West Bank, and where access to basic services is administered under Israeli planning laws. Palestinians in Refayeh / Deirat consume just 20 litres of water per person per day. To read more on food security and nutrition challenges particular to the vulnerable communities living in “Area C”, click on: http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF-oPt_April_Update.pdf
--SNIP--

I think the lack of something like water, which is a basic human right kind, is pretty bad, and show the utter failure thus far of talking to Israel.

and

OPT: West Bank Bedouins worse off than Gazans

Working with Israel has been a pretty big failure so far. The only people to have benefited have been some politicians.

Scofflaw

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Since you love pictures so much an all.

Since Abu Mariam has taken on board the point about the pictures, I can't help but regard this as a breach of the peace, on a topic which we all know frequently leads to trench warfare. Infractions for this sort of thing, therefore, will escalate rapidly.

moderately,
Scofflaw

The Saint

Mahatma coat wrote: »

What annoys me is that hamass are so utterly Sh!te at killing people, If they were able to Kill 5-10 illegal settlers a day EVERY DAY then Israel would have to sit up and pay attention, then maybe the settlers would comprehend the seriousness of their actions, then maybe sanity might eventually prevail in the area, Hamass need to up the ante if they want to be taken seriously. A situation needs to be created where the prevailing idea amongst Israelis is that the cost of settlements is too high, at the moment the only people dying in any real numbers are the Palestinians, once this changes and There are Daily Funeral processions wit a dozen coffins, maybe just maybe those in charge might get the message

OK, this post is just beyond me. How in the name of Jesus do you think this would be a good idea? Firstly, no one should be killed, not even settlers who I have contempt for, especially the ones around Hebron.

Secondly, what do you think would happen if Hamas conducted large scale attacks on settlers. I'll tell you and it is not what you have assumed. Firstly, there would be large scale retaliation by the settlers who are as nutty and probably better armed than Hamas. There would be IDF incursions in which there would be inevitable large scale Palestinian casualties.

It is not hard to see what would happen if what you say should take place did as you just have to look into the not too distant past to see it. So lets look at the second Intifada. Settlements doubled in size, the Palestinians got a great big garden wall, unfortunately this wall also takes 10% of their garden. They got roadblocks, checkpoints, earthmounds, roadgates, incursions, all of which was justified by the Israelis (largely spuriously in my opinion) in the name of security. Public attention was drawn away from this because of suicide and other attacks. Do you think Israeli would have largely gotten away with these measures if it didn't have something to deflect attention and point to? I'm not saying any of this was justified but it is a matter of fact. The Palestinians lost a massive amount during this time so what do you think would happen if a similar policy by Hamas was implemented. Do you think the Palestinians would gain or lose from such a situation?

The Palestinians have never had such a good standing in the international sphere in a long time. Conversely, Israel has not had such a bad standing in a long time. This creates leverage and pressure on the Israelis and makes them, not the Palestinians, look rejectionist. Do you think a settlement freeze would have taken place if there were continuous attacks in the West Bank? No there wouldn't, and there would be a hell of a lot more restrictions in place there.

Life is still sh1t in the West Bank now but it is a hell of a lot better than it was before. If you are pro-Palestinian you would not advocate a policy for an escalation of Hamas as it will be the Palestinians who will lose more. The settlers have god on their side and won't go anywhere but will only make then undertake more and more extreme action and it's pretty fcuked up already as it is.

It's easy to advocate a policy when you are not the one who will have to bear the consequences of it.

Mahatma coat

The Saint wrote: »

OK, this post is just beyond me. How in the name of Jesus do you think this would be a good idea? Firstly, no one should be killed, not even settlers who I have contempt for, especially the ones around Hebron.

Sorry I disagree, for the sake of the Majority who want peace SOME People need to be eliminated, I'm not advocating Wholesale slaughter byt any means, but 'Selective' targeting is already being done by one side.

Secondly, what do you think would happen if Hamas conducted large scale attacks on settlers. I'll tell you and it is not what you have assumed. Firstly, there would be large scale retaliation by the settlers who are as nutty and probably better armed than Hamas. There would be IDF incursions in which there would be inevitable large scale Palestinian casualties.

A couple of Decent large scale operations could sufficently shake up the Settlers belief that God wants them to be Cvnts, Israel as a nation supports these idiots as theres no REAL cost to them.

It is not hard to see what would happen if what you say should take place did as you just have to look into the not too distant past to see it. So lets look at the second Intifada. Settlements doubled in size, the Palestinians got a great big garden wall, unfortunately this wall also takes 10% of their garden. They got roadblocks, checkpoints, earthmounds, roadgates, incursions, all of which was justified by the Israelis (largely spuriously in my opinion) in the name of security. Public attention was drawn away from this because of suicide and other attacks. Do you think Israeli would have largely gotten away with these measures if it didn't have something to deflect attention and point to? I'm not saying any of this was justified but it is a matter of fact. The Palestinians lost a massive amount during this time so what do you think would happen if a similar policy by Hamas was implemented. Do you think the Palestinians would gain or lose from such a situation?

Israel talks about the High cost of Others Attackin them, There has to be an equally high cost fore them attacking others, Can things get much worse for the Palestinians??

The Palestinians have never had such a good standing in the international sphere in a long time. Conversely, Israel has not had such a bad standing in a long time. This creates leverage and pressure on the Israelis and makes them, not the Palestinians, look rejectionist. Do you think a settlement freeze would have taken place if there were continuous attacks in the West Bank? No there wouldn't, and there would be a hell of a lot more restrictions in place there.

Yeah cos thats done them wonders, it Stopped the settlements, Stopped the Big wall and the roadblocks, they have given back some of the land and made life easier for the Palestinians havent they, Oh wait:rolleyes:

Life is still sh1t in the West Bank now but it is a hell of a lot better than it was before. If you are pro-Palestinian you would not advocate a policy for an escalation of Hamas as it will be the Palestinians who will lose more. The settlers have god on their side and won't go anywhere but will only make then undertake more and more extreme action and it's pretty fcuked up already as it is.

It's easy to advocate a policy when you are not the one who will have to bear the consequences of it.

Hamass already advocate this policy, all I am advocating is that they actually Get Good at it, They are talkin the talk, but not walkin the walk

wes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Hamass already advocate this policy, all I am advocating is that they actually Get Good at it, They are talkin the talk, but not walkin the walk

I am going to have to disagree. Violence hasn't solved anything for either side as it stands. Right now Israel has managed to make themselves look extremely bad in the international community and the type of campaign that you advocate, while first and foremost morally wrong, would give Israel an excuse to kill a lot of innocent people. Both sides need to stop the violence for there to be peace, and this includes a complete and total freeze of all settlement activity (settlements are a violent activity) in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

While working with Israel has imho failed miserably, I think there are other non-violent methods that the Palestinians can use. Working with Israel has failed, so a campaign of civil disobedience and other peaceful forms of protests need to be used, and world wide BDS campaign is what is needed. There is no point in working with Israel, and hurting them financially is the best option, while Israel will probably react violently to such a campaign, it will make them look like monsters, and will essentially help the Palestinians achieve there aims.

BlaasForRafa

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Sorry I disagree, for the sake of the Majority who want peace SOME People need to be eliminated, I'm not advocating Wholesale slaughter byt any means, but 'Selective' targeting is already being done by one side.

This is one of the most disgusting posts on here. To actually advocate more murders is despicable, you probably think that the Omagh bombing helped the Irish peace process along going by your twisted logic.

Mahatma coat

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This is one of the most disgusting posts on here. To actually advocate more murders is despicable

What I am advocating is a Balance in the Scale of the Murders, I am advocating that Israels own stated defence policy be turned on them, And I am saying that The ILLEGAL SETTLERS need to be Forced from the Land, and forced off it in such a way that no one thinks about trying to steal land in the area for some time to come

you probably think that the Omagh bombing helped

the Irish peace process along going by your twisted logic.

IT may well have, the scale of thew atrocity meant that those who quietly said nothing about these atrocities couldnt sit on the fence, there was no Justification of it being an attack on an occupational force, or about gettin them to the negotiation table, it was pure and simple an act of cowardice and Ignorance, that helped to unify public opinion amongst the last of the Holdouts that peace was the only viable option