While we're posting years-old articles on Palestine and Israel...

speedboatchase · 01-09-2010 10:01AM #1

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4522465.stm

Killed for the family's honour

By Orla Guerin
BBC News, Ramallah

There is growing concern among Palestinian human rights workers after the killings of at least six young women in recent months. The murders are described in some quarters as "honour killings". The victims are usually accused of behaving improperly and bringing shame upon their families. Orla Guerin has been piecing together some of the victims' stories.

Ramallah map

She was last seen at half past two on a Saturday afternoon looking down from a window in her family's apartment.

They live on a main road, in a building that houses an ice-cream shop. Outside a religious procession was making its way through the streets.

Someone walking in that procession, who knew her face and her troubles, glanced up and saw her.

Less than two hours later, she was dead - her skull crushed - reportedly by blows from an iron bar.

Her name was Faten. She was 22-years-old, a Palestinian Christian from the West Bank city of Ramallah.

After her lifeless body was found, her father and an aunt were taken into custody.

Faten had fallen in love with a young man called Samer, a Muslim, from Jericho. Her family disapproved of her choice.

Faten decided to use an ancient formula for resolving disputes, known in Arabic as 'Tanebeh'
In the last desperate weeks of her life, Faten knew a death sentence was hanging over her head, and she tried hard to escape it.

She attempted to elope, but did not get far and was sent home, to face the wrath of her relatives.

Some reports say beatings from family members resulted in a broken pelvis. Others that she sustained the injury when she jumped from a third floor window.

---There's more in the above article, but it makes for pretty gruesome reading. Ironically, this is the same Palestine Irish feminists clamour for :rolleyes:

Sanjuro · 01-09-2010 10:04AM

Yeah, that's pretty horific and indefensable, but-

speedboatchase wrote: »

Ironically, this is the same Palestine Irish feminists clamour for :rolleyes:

What?!

King Felix · 01-09-2010 10:15AM

A story from 2005. Why?

speedboatchase · 01-09-2010 10:19AM

King Felix wrote: »

A story from 2005. Why?

We have a thread in After Hours where people are up in arms (quite rightly if it had happened recently) over an IDF soldier being acquitted for shooting a child. This is the exact same story Jonathan Ross re-tweeted on Twitter yesterday - which is where I assume the OP got it. However, the article is from 2005 so it's just an example of people going off on another Pro-Palestine rant on a completely outdated articlle. So here's an Anti-Palestine story from 2005 to redress the balance

speedboatchase · 01-09-2010 10:21AM

Sanjuro wrote: »

Yeah, that's pretty horific and indefensable, but-

What?!

A huge amount of Irish feminists and homosexuals are bizarrely, heavily in favour for a Palestinian state, even though such a state would grant them and like-minded individuals little to zero rights under Sharia Law

King Felix · 01-09-2010 10:22AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

We have a thread in After Hours where people are up in arms (quite rightly if it had happened recently) over an IDF soldier being acquitted for shooting a child. This is the exact same story Jonathan Ross re-tweeted on Twitter yesterday - which is where I assume the OP got it. However, the article is from 2005 so it's just an example of people going off on another Pro-Palestine rant on a completely outdated articlle. So here's an Anti-Palestine story from 2005 to redress the balance

Oh. Hadn't realised. I just assumed it was a fresh story from there.

I didn't really spot any pro-palestinian rants in there though.

Just a few rants about murdering a child.

speedboatchase · 01-09-2010 10:24AM

King Felix wrote: »

Oh. Hadn't realised. I just assumed it was a fresh story from there.

I didn't really spot any pro-palestinian rants in there though.

Just a few rants about murdering a child.

Anti-Israel more than pro-palestinian, apologies. As I said, I could never and would never defend that soldier but a bit of perspective is needed - it was in 2005 and I'm sure there are more relevant matters to discuss than something which is so emotive it can do nothing but stoke anti-israel flames in the forum. Emotive or not, it's still a five-year old article, which is my point

Augmerson · 01-09-2010 10:30AM

WWW.GIYUS.ORG.

Sanjuro · 01-09-2010 10:35AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

A huge amount of Irish feminists and homosexuals are bizarrely, heavily in favour for a Palestinian state, even though such a state would grant them and like-minded individuals little to zero rights under Sharia Law

I don't think anybody's sexual orientation warrants special mention in the whole Israel Palestine debate. But since you bring it up, maybe homosexuals and feminists relate to the persecution of a minority. The lack rights afforded the Palestinians and being treated like third class citizens. You can relate to somebody's position without having to agree with their politics.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 01-09-2010 10:37AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

As I said, I could never and would never defend that soldier but a bit of perspective is needed - it was in 2005 and I'm sure there are more relevant matters to discuss than something which is so emotive it can do nothing but stoke anti-israel flames in the forum. Emotive or not, it's still a five-year old article, which is my point

But the child is still dead, when with a little cop on she could be alive.

The soldier is most likely still on active service as he's druze and not Jewish.

And the land where the land was killed is still under occupation and illegally settled.

But other than that I get where your going.

There's always a presumption of guilt when Israeli matter's are brought up for discussion, and innocence when its the Palestinians. And I do believe a lot of people are blinded by their hatred of anything Israeli.

It gets tiring, and more than a little childish when you see the same 3 or 4 people posting up anti-Israeli B/S time after time, only to join each other in a **** circle of 'thanks' to each other.

Oh, you could get going on with this discussion - sharia law in Gaza and The West Bank, human rights abuses by Hamas etc to their own people, corruption in the ranks of Hamas & Fatah and create a one man mega thread - there's enough evidence out there showing honour killings & the results of kangaroo courts in Gaza.

So, lets get going.

Red Hand · 01-09-2010 10:51AM

Please, lets not get bogged down with semetics.

I mean semantics.

Nodin · 01-09-2010 11:21AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

A huge amount of Irish feminists and homosexuals are bizarrely, heavily in favour for a Palestinian state, even though such a state would grant them and like-minded individuals little to zero rights under Sharia Law

Just as a matter of interest...why do you think a Palestinian state would be under Sharia law?

Nodin · 01-09-2010 11:23AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

........ something which is so emotive it can do nothing but stoke anti-israel flames in the forum.......

Didn't think of it that way. Maybe he was right to start the thread after all.

Kasabian · 01-09-2010 11:33AM

I don't think any article can be outdated , they remain relevant as do history books.

Nodin · 01-09-2010 11:38AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

A huge amount of Irish feminists and homosexuals are bizarrely, heavily in favour for a Palestinian state, even though such a state would grant them and like-minded individuals little to zero rights under Sharia Law

You realise that she was killed by her christian family.....?

Sanjuro · 01-09-2010 11:39AM

Kasabian wrote: »

I don't think any article can be outdated , they remain relevant as do history books.

Yeah, and when we don't progress from that history, we end up with the Israel Palestine situation.

Kasabian · 01-09-2010 11:42AM

Sanjuro wrote: »

Yeah, and when we don't progress from that history, we end up with the Israel Palestine situation.

I get you but history should always remain relevant.

I can't learn from tomorrow's mistakes.

Noreen1 · 01-09-2010 11:53AM

More horror stories from that region!:eek:

If there is one thing that stands out in these particular cases, it is the fact that the culture/tradition in Palestine is violently anti-feminist. (Note the fact that these vile dishonourable killings were carried out by supposed Christian and Muslim families.)

The question is, how on earth can such such a disgusting mindset still exist in this day and age?
I rather suspect that poverty plays a vary large part, and if that proves to be the case, surely it is even greater proof that that region needs a massive injection of funding.

I, for one, am seriously wondering how many of the Human rights issues we debate so often on Boards might be resolved by proper Humanitarian aid, with adequate education programmes?

What do other Boards users think?

Noreen

Nodin · 01-09-2010 11:55AM

Funding will do SFA if theres no sustainable economy. When the place develops a higher standard of living and education it'll change, and not before.

prinz · 01-09-2010 12:04PM

Nodin wrote: »

Funding will do SFA if theres no sustainable economy. When the place develops a higher standard of living and education it'll change, and not before.

+1. Throwing money at the problem will not change anything in the long term. The people themselves need to change/ or at least want that change.

Noreen1 · 01-09-2010 12:32PM

Nodin wrote: »

Funding will do SFA if theres no sustainable economy. When the place develops a higher standard of living and education it'll change, and not before.

Agreed. The point I was trying to make, though, (albeit badly) is that massive amounts of funding will be required to establish a sustainable economy, with a decent infrastructure and system of education.

These incidents, whether in Palestine or elsewhere, make me despair at the amount of money that is spent on warfare throughout the world. Think of what it costs Israel to defend its borders, for one example! Then think about what could be achieved if the same amount of money was spent on establishing a decent quality of life for people in Gaza.

I'm not suggesting that defence forces aren't necessary - of course they are. I'm just sickened that so much money/resources go into killing what are too often innocent civilians - while that money could be put to better use building up a decent quality of life for ordinary people, which would do so much more for the cause of Peace and Human rights.

In that sense, are these poor women as much victims of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as those who are killed in a conflict situation?
ie. If Palestine had a sustainable, reasonably affluent economy, would these "tribal" customs still exist? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't.

It just seems to me that Poverty is the main cause of Human rights violations, and since poverty is almost a guaranteed end product of warfare, then many of the worlds problems could be better eliminated by combating poverty than by any other means - especially warfare.

Noreen

Nodin · 01-09-2010 12:54PM

Rather unfortunately Israel is bent on an expansionist ideal, which makes it nessecarily view Palestinians as children of a lesser god. Palestinians - having been denied legal recourse via the UN - retaliate with violence, which is often badly conceived and counter-productive. Given the failure of the US to crack the whip hand over Israel, I see little changing.

Terry · 01-09-2010 01:00PM

On the subject of old articles, does anyone have a story about Israel from 1946?

Nodin · 01-09-2010 01:06PM

Terry wrote: »

On the subject of old articles, does anyone have a story about Israel from 1946?

I have one from 1949......It proves fuck all about fuck all really, so fits in with the theme of the thread....

For 54 years the fate of a young Bedouin girl who disappeared in the Negev desert was relegated to rumour and a single entry in the diary of David Ben-Gurion, the prime minister of the fledgling Israeli state.

"It was decided and carried out: they washed her, cut her hair, raped her and killed her," he wrote.

After that the case became one of the state's earliest secrets, and no more than hearsay passed between soldiers.
Now the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz has used previously classified army documents to reveal the full story of what Mr Ben-Gurion called a "horrific atrocity".

In August 1949, an army unit stationed at Nirim in the Negev shot an Arab man and captured a Bedouin girl with him. Her name and age remain unknown, but she was probably in her mid-teens.
In the following hours she was taken from the hut and forced to shower naked in full view of the soldiers. Three of the men then raped her.

After the Sabbath meal the platoon commander, identified by Ha'aretz as a man called Moshe who had served in the British army during the second world war, proposed a vote on what should be done with her.
One option was to put her to work in the outpost's kitchen.
Most of the 20 or so soldiers present voted for the alternative by chanting: "We want to fuck ". The commander organised a rota for groups of his men to gang rape the girl over the next three days. Moshe and one of his sergeants went first, leaving the girl unconscious. Next morning, she complicated matters by protesting about her treatment. Moshe told one of his sergeants to kill her.

She was forced into a patrol vehicle with several soldiers, two carrying shovels, and they drove off into the dunes. When the girl realised what was about to happen she tried to run, but only made it a few paces before she was shot by a Sergeant Michael. Her body was buried in a grave less than a foot deep.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/nov/04/israel1

Terry · 01-09-2010 01:10PM

Nodin wrote: »

I have one from 1949......It proves fuck all about fuck all really, so fits in with the theme of the thread....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/nov/04/israel1

I was being facetious. Israel didn't exist in 1946.

Sefirah · 01-09-2010 01:38PM

Noreen1 wrote: »

Agreed. The point I was trying to make, though, (albeit badly) is that massive amounts of funding will be required to establish a sustainable economy, with a decent infrastructure and system of education.

These incidents, whether in Palestine or elsewhere, make me despair at the amount of money that is spent on warfare throughout the world. Think of what it costs Israel to defend its borders, for one example! Then think about what could be achieved if the same amount of money was spent on establishing a decent quality of life for people in Gaza.

I'm not suggesting that defence forces aren't necessary - of course they are. I'm just sickened that so much money/resources go into killing what are too often innocent civilians - while that money could be put to better use building up a decent quality of life for ordinary people, which would do so much more for the cause of Peace and Human rights.

In that sense, are these poor women as much victims of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as those who are killed in a conflict situation?
ie. If Palestine had a sustainable, reasonably affluent economy, would these "tribal" customs still exist? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't.

It just seems to me that Poverty is the main cause of Human rights violations, and since poverty is almost a guaranteed end product of warfare, then many of the worlds problems could be better eliminated by combating poverty than by any other means - especially warfare.

Noreen

Same rubbish as always that Israel is somehow to blame for the barbaric acts taking place within the Palestinian community- I ask you- if it is poverty and not Islam or the Palestinians' tribalistic culture which propagates such horrendous treatment of women which is to blame, then why are honour killings still carried out by these people when they reach the affluent west and don't have such a problem?
Just a FRACTION of what's out there:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-11-29-honor-killings-in-the-US_N.htm
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/08/10/honor_killing_comes_to_the_us/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1201625/Cheating-wife-face-honour-killing-acid-poured-lovers-throat.html
http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/2250-UK-Muslim-Honor-Killing-Wife-Daughters-Burned-Alive.html
http://www.christian.org.uk/news/christian-girl-fears-muslim-honour-killing-in-us-state/
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/honor_killings_islam_misogyny/
Just another attempt to point the finger at Israel for problems the Palestinians themselves created

Nodin · 01-09-2010 01:50PM

Sefirah wrote: »

Same rubbish as always that Israel is somehow to blame for the barbaric acts taking place within the Palestinian community-

Has anybody actually blamed Israel for what happened in the OP...?

Nodin · 01-09-2010 01:51PM

Terry wrote: »

I was being facetious. Israel didn't exist in 1946.

True. Ye got me.

Sefirah · 01-09-2010 03:34PM

Nodin wrote: »

Has anybody actually blamed Israel for what happened in the OP...?

Weak attempt to avoid the issue- I quoted a specific post which blatantly accused Israel of being responsible for the barbaric actions of the Palestinians. If you're not able to find a suitable response, then don't bother answering, but trying to de-legitimise what I said isn't doing anything for you

Einhard · 01-09-2010 03:44PM

Kasabian wrote: »

I don't think any article can be outdated , they remain relevant as do history books.

They remain relevent as history books, not as current affairs pieces years after the fact.

wes · 01-09-2010 04:06PM

Sefirah wrote: »

Weak attempt to avoid the issue- I quoted a specific post which blatantly accused Israel of being responsible for the barbaric actions of the Palestinians. If you're not able to find a suitable response, then don't bother answering, but trying to de-legitimise what I said isn't doing anything for you

You highlighted the following in your above post:

Noreen1 wrote: »

In that sense, are these poor women as much victims of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as those who are killed in a conflict situation?
ie. If Palestine had a sustainable, reasonably affluent economy, would these "tribal" customs still exist? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't.

The blame is being put on the "Israeli/Palestinian conflict", and not as you mistakenly claim on Israel. So you are very much mistaken.

While we're posting years-old articles on Palestine and Israel...

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