Criminals paying for their sins . .

Drumpot · 30-08-2010 10:04PM #1

Just watched a couple of programmes of "America's hardest prisons" and it made me think that we really do have things wrong here (I know , I know, where do we start) in terms of the prison system. .

There's a prison in texas where it costs more to feed the police dogs then the inmates. They pride theirselves on keeping the cost of prisoners down. . For example , they use disgarded food not used to feed the prisoners. They dress them in pink.

I know that there are issues with overcrowding and Im sure there are people who would say that the prisons of this country are no walk in the park, but they arent supposed to be. It is time that prison in Ireland was as much about "hard time" for the real bad criminals, as it is supposed to be about rehabilitation. .

Some people might argue the deterrant debate .. Who cares if its not a deterrent, if it saves the taxpayer money and makes inmates uncomfortable in their stay then it cant be that bad.

Is it the case that there are too many bleeding heart liberals who feel its more important to protect the rights of somebody who showed complete disregard for the law (and the rest of us), then try to save the hard strapped taxpayers money from being used to keep these guys in some sort of comfort ?

Hard time should be hard time (because lets be honest, the real criminals never spend enough time behind bars in Ireland!), why cant we make it more difficult to relax in prison . .

starbelgrade · 30-08-2010 10:06PM

Another lock 'em up thread.

Great.

Can't wait for the next one.

lugha · 30-08-2010 10:07PM

Why does no one ever say "bleeding heart liberals, gone mad" ?

JONJO THE MISER · 30-08-2010 10:07PM

Very simple build a super prision on a island off the coast of Mayo, vet everyone that goes in and out, you wont find many scumbags throwing drugs over the fence then will ya.

mikemac · 30-08-2010 10:08PM

Sheriff Joe Arpaio, America's Toughest Sheriff

The man is a shameless self promotor, sure that's what he called his book.
Certainly not a modest man :rolleyes:

But has a lot of the same ideas of you OP, he is on youtube also.

It costs millions or even tens of millions to build a prison.
Not hard to save money when your prisoners live in tents and realy, are you proposing a tent city in Ireland?

whadabouchasir · 30-08-2010 10:09PM

Drumpot wrote: »

, why cant we make it more difficult to relax in prison . .

I think the U.S army tried this in a prison in Iraq,can't remember if it worked or not though.

galwayrush · 30-08-2010 10:10PM

Our current system definitely does not work.:rolleyes:

Liam Byrne · 30-08-2010 10:11PM

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Very simple build a super prision on a island off the coast of Mayo, vet everyone that goes in and out, you wont find many scumbags throwing drugs over the fence then will ya.

Why Mayo ? Why not Spike Island off Cork ?

Oh yeah - we tried that and the bleeding heart liberals put paid to it.

Drumpot · 30-08-2010 10:13PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Sheriff Joe Arpaio, America's Toughest Sheriff

The man is a shameless self promotor, sure that's what he called his book.
Certainly not a modest man :rolleyes:

But has a lot of the same ideas of you OP, he is on youtube also.

It costs millions or even tens of millions to build a prison.
Not hard to save money when your prisoners live in tents and realy, are you proposing a tent city in Ireland?

Nah .. I was just throwing out some suggestions . . There is the idea that people on the dole do some work for their welfare, fair enough. . Why cant there be some creative thinking regarding the people who have taken from society ?

Doesnt it cost 100k a year or so per criminal to the state ? Dont have the stats, so will be corrected . . Just seeing if people have any other stories of ways of saving the state money while making it proper hard time and possibly teaching these people a lesson (with a carrot and stick approach). .

Would I want to see a tent City in Ireland ? Dont really care much if it saves the taxpayer money . . In essence, my view on hardcore criminals (killers, rapists etc) is F - U . . You dont deserve the consideration . .

Pete M. · 30-08-2010 10:13PM

What if they're atheists?

They wouldn't give a crap about their sins then would they now hah?

And they're already building the prison off Mayo, the gas refinery is a cover :eek:

But seriously though, they couldn't build it off Mayo.
What about the health & safety of the inmates?

strobe · 30-08-2010 10:15PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Just watched a couple of programmes of "America's hardest prisons" and it made me think that we really do have things wrong here (I know , I know, where do we start) in terms of the prison system. .

There's a prison in texas where it costs more to feed the police dogs then the inmates. They pride theirselves on keeping the cost of prisoners down. . For example , they use disgarded food not used to feed the prisoners. They dress them in pink.

I know that there are issues with overcrowding and Im sure there are people who would say that the prisons of this country are no walk in the park, but they arent supposed to be. It is time that prison in Ireland was as much about "hard time" for the real bad criminals, as it is supposed to be about rehabilitation. .

Some people might argue the deterrant debate .. Who cares if its not a deterrent, if it saves the taxpayer money and makes inmates uncomfortable in their stay then it cant be that bad.

Is it the case that there are too many bleeding heart liberals who feel its more important to protect the rights of somebody who showed complete disregard for the law (and the rest of us), then try to save the hard strapped taxpayers money from being used to keep these guys in some sort of comfort ?

Hard time should be hard time (because lets be honest, the real criminals never spend enough time behind bars in Ireland!), why cant we make it more difficult to relax in prison . .

Recidivism rate in USA = 60% http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/rpr94.htm

Recidivism rate in Ireland = 49% http://www.coe.int/t/dg3/pompidou/Source/Activities/Justice/JohnnyConnollyspresentation_en.pdf

Go away silly person.

mikemac · 30-08-2010 10:17PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Why Mayo ? Why not Spike Island off Cork ?

Oh yeah - we tried that and the bleeding heart liberals put paid to it.

I don't remember protests demanding that Spike Island be closed? Did they happen?

From what I remember there was a fire in a wing and it closed shortly afterwards.
Plus there were serious riots there

Have you a link to where the bleeding heart liberals managed to get Spike Island closed, I'm interested to learn more, can't find anything in google searches

Drumpot · 30-08-2010 10:35PM

strobe wrote: »

Recidivism rate in USA = 60% http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/rpr94.htm

Recidivism rate in Ireland = 49% http://www.coe.int/t/dg3/pompidou/Source/Activities/Justice/JohnnyConnollyspresentation_en.pdf

Go away silly person.

How do your links (one not working Einstein) prove that making things harder for prisoners in this country will result in an increase in reoffending ?

So if we have a lower reoffending rate then the US, its obviously the way we treat the criminals while they are incarcerated ? Couldnt possibly be anything else ? Differant laws, differant states penal systems, differant ability to prosecute criminals . . Ah yes, 2 + 2 = whatever answer you want it to be . . :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

desertcircus · 30-08-2010 10:41PM

Or maybe, just maybe, treating prisoners worse than dogs makes them less interested in trying to become part of that society again once they're released and more likely to commit crime again.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/12/hard_time_and_r.html

Prof.Badass · 30-08-2010 10:48PM

strobe wrote: »

Recidivism rate in USA = 60% http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/rpr94.htm

Recidivism rate in Ireland = 49% http://www.coe.int/t/dg3/pompidou/Source/Activities/Justice/JohnnyConnollyspresentation_en.pdf

Go away silly person.

You have to also bear in mind that proportionally speaking the usa has a way higher prison population.

Drumpot wrote: »

How do your links (one not working Einstein) prove that making things harder for prisoners in this country will result in an increase in reoffending ?

So if we have a lower reoffending rate then the US, its obviously the way we treat the criminals while they are incarcerated ? Couldnt possibly be anything else ? Differant laws, differant states penal systems, differant ability to prosecute criminals . . Ah yes, 2 + 2 = whatever answer you want it to be . .

Because humans have egos and cannot be beaten into submission the way some people think they can (see: humans are not cattle). Treat them like **** and it will decrease their chances of wanting to become contributing members of society, they'll want to get revenge to soothe their wounded pride.
I'm not saying prisons should be like palaces but you shouldn't be going out of your way to deliberately degrade prisoners. Anyone with a basic understanding of human psychology should be able to see how that would be counter-productive.

See, the arguments you propose are not born out any rational ideas on what's best for society, they're born out of an emotional, evolutionary desire to dominate your enemies and make them suffer. The problem is emotions cannot be trusted. They often lead to bad decisions.

Also, I very much doubt irish prisons are half as nice as posters like yourself make them out to be.

Drumpot · 30-08-2010 10:57PM

desertcircus wrote: »

Or maybe, just maybe, treating prisoners worse than dogs makes them less interested in trying to become part of that society again once they're released and more likely to commit crime again.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/12/hard_time_and_r.html

Where did I say "treat them like dogs" ? I said make it hard for them . . Whats wrong with them not enjoying prison ?

Would Ireland have the same gang and racial re-offences that would most definitely be more prevelant in the U.S ?

Whats wrong with making them work for their release ? If anything not working and choosing to find easier ways of making money has led them not to appreciate "a hard days work" . . Surely to integrate into society, it makes more sense to aclimatise them to the more "normal" accepted way of making money (9-5 work etc) . . Why not even reward those who show an acceptance to the rehabilitation ?

People who refuse should get longer sentances and harsher treatment unless a psychologist is convinced that the "softly softly" approach would make a differance. . .

Restlessness and discontent are the first necessities of progress.

scientific1982 · 30-08-2010 11:08PM

I think for violent crimes like rape, murder and gbh, prisoners should be made to work hard labour and any renumeration should be paid to the victims. Im a liberal but my liberalism ends with violence against other people.

Prof.Badass · 30-08-2010 11:19PM

The problem with making prisoners work is the risk of it causing a legal system that sends too many people to jail and for too long because the government could do with more workers.

Bring private companies into it and **** would really start to get bad. This case doesn't involve prisoners doing labour, but it shows what can happen when people start to gain from other people being incarcerated;

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/23/pennsylvania.corrupt.judges/

Drumpot · 30-08-2010 11:19PM

Prof.Badass wrote: »

You have to also bear in mind that proportionally speaking the usa has a way higher prison population.

Because humans have egos and cannot be beaten into submission the way some people think they can (see: humans are not cattle). Treat them like **** and it will decrease their chances of wanting to become contributing members of society, they'll want to get revenge to soothe their wounded pride.
I'm not saying prisons should be like palaces but you shouldn't be going out of your way to deliberately degrade prisoners. Anyone with a basic understanding of human psychology should be able to see how that would be counter-productive.

See, the arguments you propose are not born out any rational ideas on what's best for society, they're born out of an emotional, evolutionary desire to dominate your enemies and make them suffer.

Also, I very much doubt irish prisons are half as nice as posters like yourself make them out to be.

How nice did I say Irish Prisons were ? Please elaborate where I said they were in anyway nice?

Where did I say degrade prisoners ? Oh, I mentioned "they dress them in pink" . . Yeh, me oh my . . How awful is that . .

The whole point of prison is that you do time for your crime . . You are not supposed to feel like part of society while encarserated . . You are supposed to feel ashamed and feel remorseful. .

Your arguments are not necessarily based on whats best for society either,. You presume that rehabilitation methods are the obvious (only) answer and give us a link of a US and Irish paper on reoffenders and presume its down to prisoner treatment. Then somebody else posts a link that says harsh prisoner treatment has not actually been properly proven either way, but that one test carried out suggests that harsher prison environments do not make for a reduction in reoffenders. .

But what constitutes "harsh treatment" ? What constitutes "degrading"?

From a psychological point of view, there will always be a percentage of people who will reoffend irrespective of how society treats them . . The very fact we dont have the death penalty (which I think should be allowed for certain unquestionable reoffenders - rapists, killers etc with no remorse) in itself is a sign that society is weak on punishment. .

You said yourself "humans have egos and cannot be beaten into submisson", thats true. But some humans cant be rehabilitated either and many criminals choose not to be . . Im all for carrot and stick approach. . If a criminal shows a willingness to try and rehabilitate, by all means, give them some of the luxuries that others dont deserve . .

There doesnt seem to be much of a "reward" system from what I have heard (anicdotdal yes, I am open to correction with factual data that proves otherwise) in the Irish penal system. Hell, people get a huge percentage off their sentance irrespective of their behaviour or cooperation with regards to rehabilitation. .

Doublin · 30-08-2010 11:22PM

desertcircus wrote: »

Or maybe, just maybe, treating prisoners worse than dogs makes them less interested in trying to become part of that society again once they're released and more likely to commit crime again.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/12/hard_time_and_r.html

100% spot on.

sponsoredwalk · 30-08-2010 11:39PM

Isn't there a thread on voting for an extreme right-wing party in AH you
should be posting this in instead?

sponsoredwalk · 30-08-2010 11:42PM

Prof.Badass wrote: »

The problem with making prisoners work is the risk of it causing a legal system that sends too many people to jail and for too long because the government could do with more workers.

Bring private companies into it and **** would really start to get bad. This case doesn't involve prisoners doing labour, but it shows what can happen when people start to gain from other people being incarcerated;

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/23/pennsylvania.corrupt.judges/

In America this is what they've already done, the prison system complex.

I'd google all the evidence but I'm not in the mood

Basically the U.S. Prison system is a whole profit-making industry and
judges, or police, (I forget) have been found to be getting people into
prison due to shady deals with the industry. Google be thy friend in this
game of serious internetz...

EDIT: If I'd bothered to read the link I quoted I would have seen that
you've already found some evidence of this LMAO! Boy a weird night,
second thread I've done something like this

Jeboa Safari · 30-08-2010 11:45PM

I'd definitely support toughening up the prison system. Hard labour, and an island prison. Maybe some sort of other labour for less severe crimes

Drumpot · 30-08-2010 11:45PM

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Isn't there a thread on voting for an extreme right-wing party in AH you
should be posting this in instead?

How is it extreme right wing party ideals ?

Saying we should make prisoners do proper time is automatically assumed to mean "make them live like dogs" and degrade them beyond belief . .

Wouldnt want to think the world has gone PC mad . . :rolleyes::rolleyes:

sponsoredwalk · 30-08-2010 11:54PM

Yes, we wouldn't want to offend the "pc brigade" that I keep reading about

This is a terrible idea, toughening up prison systems, because we're not
out for blood we're out to rehabilitate, aren't we? I thought this was a
modern society in which we, the West, were pure arbiters of what's right.
If this is the case then why are we calling for more extreme punishment
when harsh punishment has not been a sufficient reason for people to
stop commiting crime?

Is there a link between poverty & crime? Hmm...

Is there a link between repeat offences and poverty? Hmm Hmm...

What do we want to do about it? Make 'em work harder while in prison,
that'll solve our problems :rolleyes:

We need to get to the source of the leak, not try to fix things with faulty
patchwork. History shows how crime rates decline when people's
living standards come up. If you really care about lowering crime why
don't you want to fix the real causes of why people commit crime?

I think you're just out for blood here, no offence, but calling on prisons
making things harder for their inmates is not going to solve the problems.
Tell us the repeat offences rates in the U.S. again, you're model of a
criminal-correcting system?

Einhard · 31-08-2010 12:00AM

What on earth has dressing inmates in pink got to do with a) justice, and b) saving costs?

pvt6zh395dqbrj · 31-08-2010 12:05AM

When my hero, Michael Scofield, was in Prison to rescue his brother. It wasn't easy. He had to endure come-ons from T-Bag who was a gay rapist, and he got his toe cut off. Also he got burned but thats only because he was trying to break out and I like to think that's a metaphor for prison life. He also had good times, he made friends with a doctor and helped the warden impress his wife. All in all I like to think Michael learned some things in Prison.

If I ever have to go to prison, I'll think of him

Drumpot · 31-08-2010 12:07AM

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Yes, we wouldn't want to offend the "pc brigade" that I keep reading about

This is a terrible idea, toughening up prison systems, because we're not
out for blood we're out to rehabilitate, aren't we? I thought this was a
modern society in which we, the West, were pure arbiters of what's right.
If this is the case then why are we calling for more extreme punishment
when harsh punishment has not been a sufficient reason for people to
stop commiting crime?

Is there a link between poverty & crime? Hmm...

Is there a link between repeat offences and poverty? Hmm Hmm...

What do we want to do about it? Make 'em work harder while in prison,
that'll solve our problems :rolleyes:

We need to get to the source of the leak, not try to fix things with faulty
patchwork. History shows how crime rates decline when people's
living standards come up. If you really care about lowering crime why
don't you want to fix the real causes of why people commit crime?

I think you're just out for blood here, no offence, but calling on prisons
making things harder for their inmates is not going to solve the problems.
Tell us the repeat offences rates in the U.S. again, you're model of a
criminal-correcting system?

I dont think sitting in a prison for 24 hours a day for x years is much rehabilitation. . Whatever about the merits of making them work for their crimes (that you appear to feel is "faulty patchwork"), how does letting them sit there for their term do anybody any benefit ? In fact how does not making them work for their food help them get used to integrating back into society ?

That aside, your presumption is that this kind of psychology can be applied to the more hardened criminals . .

You put two and two together and appear to have pretty much gotten a sort of shawshank redemption image in your head. . Please quote my more "extreme punishments" ? ? I reffered to using food that is edible but not brand spanking new and dressing the prisoners in pink (didnt necessarily suggest the pink clothes, mentioned it as a differant form of discipline).

Einhard · 31-08-2010 12:09AM

Drumpot wrote: »

Whats wrong with them not enjoying prison ?

Nobody enjoys prison! An inmate's liberty is entirely taken away. He can't make decisions for himself. He can't decide what he wants for breakfast. He can't even decide when he'll have breakfast. He sees his family by appointment once a month. He talks to his kids through a glass partition. In some Irish prisons he can't even take a shit at night and flush the toilet afterwards. The whole point of prison is the deprivation of liberty. That's the punishment. There's no need to start degrading an inmate just so some people can satisfy a vindictive streak.

sponsoredwalk · 31-08-2010 12:14AM

Oh my god I totally missed that point about dressing prisoners in pink

This conversation just lost all of it's seriousness, I'm sorry.

If you think that's an acceptible form of punishment please take it to
the right-wing thread, unbelievable

I was going to ask you about

"I dont think sitting in a prison for 24 hours a day for x years is much rehabilitation. "

What would be an acceptible form of rehabilitation but I guess we all know
what your answer is :pac:

Drumpot · 31-08-2010 12:16AM

Haven Attractive Nation wrote: »

When my hero, Michael Scofield, was in Prison to rescue his brother. It wasn't easy. He had to endure come-ons from T-Bag who was a gay rapist, and he got his toe cut off. Also he got burned but thats only because he was trying to break out and I like to think that's a metaphor for prison life. He also had good times, he made friends with a doctor and helped the warden impress his wife. All in all I like to think Michael learned some things in Prison.

If I ever have to go to prison, I'll think of him

As I said in previous post, I mentioned it as a concept of discipline to begin debate . . Its hardly extreme form of torture. .

And I know some people believe that rehabilitation can only involve putting your arm around a poor unfortunate sole who had no other choice but to commit the crime, but one shoe does not fit all. . . Not just that, a society's commitement should be to the majority of the law abiding citizens. Yes people deserve a second chance. Yes, they deserve rehabilitation. Yes they deserve rewards for good behavior.

But if the report posted was true and accurate 50% of the criminals in this country reoffend and dont deserve such luxuries or the benefit of the doubt . . Im not talking about throwing them in a dark dungeon and feeding them piss and sh*t. . It seems that some people feel that everybody can be brought into society with time, love and understanding . ..

Criminals paying for their sins . .

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