Have you ever being affected by suicide?

Handsome Bob · 30-08-2010 09:40AM

From the point of view of the individual who has lost someone to suicide, there really is no worse feeling that you can have in life than the feeling that you failed a dear friend who commited suicide. That your friend was afraid to "burden" you because they feared that you wouldn't understand or react insensitively.

I know someone who never said a word to anyone about what he was going through. That to know him, you wouldn't have thought for a second that he was struggling with life. The bloke literally had everything to live for as well (and I mean that, I'm not being wisheywashy here). Then one morning he just ended it all. He didn't even leave a note to explain why he was doing it. He just did it, and no-one knows why, and never will.

All of those who were close to him will never get past that, that feeling that they failed a loved one, and they will never get some kind of closure because they don't have a clue why he did it. Not a breeze.

I would never dream to accuse someone, who has so much pain in their life that they are driven to end it, of selfishness. God, as Dudess said, you can't begin to comprehend the nightmarish despair someone must be going through to end their life.

But I think we all need to learn from this awful epidemic that affects so many people. Particularly when it comes to young men and why they feel they can't talk about what they are going through with a close friend or family member. I mean it's an indictment on all of us and society as a whole when a close loved one would rather throw themselves off the top of a building than just sit down and admit to another male that they are struggling. It's just incredibly, incredibly sad.

kev9100 · 30-08-2010 09:58AM

Yes, and it was a tragedy.

GavRedKing · 30-08-2010 10:02AM

Yup, close family member last year, was only 15 as well.

It was a shock to say the least.

enda1 · 30-08-2010 10:18AM

Never known anyone to kill themselves.

Hopefully no one I know or will come to know will take this route without very good reason! (by good reason I mean something like terminal cancer or something).

DingosAteMyBaby · 30-08-2010 11:27AM

Minstrel27 wrote: »

So you have a complete understanding on how someone thinks when they feel suicide is the only way out. Rational thought is long gone out the window at that stage.

I wouldn't say complete understanding but I definitey have some understanding. Again, I will repeat myself in saying that I would never condemn someone for feeling like commiting suicide is there only. I'm saying that if they understood the devastation there death caused, they probably wouldn't do it.

When I remember my friend my first thought isn't "Oh what a selfish bastard", but sometimes I do get angry. I saw so many people blame themselves after his death and that is something that will hang over them the rest of their live. Questions like "Why didn't I see the signs?", "What if I had called over to him that night?" will haunt them. There will never be closure for us as we will never find out why he did it.

At the end of the day, it is a choice and could be prevented. Obviously for a lot of people it doesn't feel like they have a choice and it's the only option for them. I know that is how my friend must have felt, but I wish that he had tried to talk to someone no matter how hard it was or no matter how pointless it would have seemed to him. Despite what he was feeling at the time, he had many things to live for and so many people in his life that loved him.

So yes I think it is a selfish act. It causes a lifetimes worth of pain to so many people and could, in most cases be prevented. It is tragic and my heart breaks for people who feel like there is no other option to end their life. But most of them don't realise that by ending their pain and suffering, they are inadvertently causing an infinite amount of pain to those they leave behind.

Dudess · 30-08-2010 11:40AM

In my opinion, calling it selfish is selfish in and of itself as it displays such a lack of understanding and thought and empathy in relation to the pain the person was going through - it doesn't take their feelings/experiences into consideration. I can understand anger and lashing out though, but to see it in terms as simple as "It's selfish to do that to the people left behind" doesn't seem fair.
It is an awful thing to do to a family, but not necessarily selfish in intent, and borne out of such horrific suffering.

Novella · 30-08-2010 11:57AM

I have never known anyone who has committed suicide, but have I been affected by it? Yes. Tbph, I've attempted it. Do I think suicide is selfish? No, I don't. I really don't. If people who have killed themselves felt anything like I did, I imagine they figured that no one would really be too bothered by their death. In fact, I was convinced that I was just a huge burden on everyone and I genuinely thought that if I wasn't around, everyone would be happier and have an easier life.

When you feel so badly that ending your life seems like a viable solution, or the only solution, it is close to impossible to see positivity anywhere. In the depths of depression, your mind simply twists each and every scenario into a negative one.

Calling anyone selfish for committing suicide does demonstrate a huge lack of understanding, imo. It's hardly surprising that so many people feel that they can't talk about feeling suicidal etc.

qwytre · 30-08-2010 12:18PM

Novella wrote: »

Calling anyone selfish for committing suicide does demonstrate a huge lack of understanding, imo.

I think there is a lot of truth in that. You cannot understand someones decision to commit suicide if you haven't experienced the causes that make somone choose that option.

Having said that I don't think it is always black and white. No doubt sometimes it is a selfish decision but not always.

jessiejam · 30-08-2010 12:24PM

I've known a few, not close friends. Horrible aftermath.

I feel its more a selfless act than anything.

These poor souls feel they are a burden on others and want to take that burden away. How is that selfish?

If you think about it, it takes some serious balls to do it.

I'm not saying its a good thing or anything of the sort, but people who are driven, for what ever reason to take there own lives, only want to stop the pain.

Handsome Bob · 30-08-2010 12:27PM

jessiejam wrote: »

These poor souls feel they are a burden on others and want to take that burden away. How is that selfish?

It's not selfish, just misguided, and a clear sign of mental instability. No offence intended to anyone.

DingosAteMyBaby · 30-08-2010 12:27PM

Dudess wrote: »

In my opinion, calling it selfish is selfish in and of itself as it displays such a lack of understanding and thought and empathy in relation to the pain the person was going through - it doesn't take their feelings/experiences into consideration. I can understand anger and lashing out though, but to see it in terms as simple as "It's selfish to do that to the people left behind" doesn't seem fair.
It is an awful thing to do to a family, but not necessarily selfish in intent, and borne out of such horrific suffering.

Oh I would never say it was a deliberate act of selfishness or selfish in intent and I know that there is more important things going on in their mind at the time than the repurcussions to those left behind. Like I said I would never chastise someone for feeling this way, it is unbearable torture and I do completely empathise with them.

I'm not trying to come across as a horrible person or attack those who feel or have felt this way. Selfish is not the first word that comes to mind when I think of suicide. It was a small part of my original post.

Novella wrote: »

I have never known anyone who has committed suicide, but have I been affected by it? Yes. Tbph, I've attempted it. Do I think suicide is selfish? No, I don't. I really don't. If people who have killed themselves felt anything like I did, I imagine they figured that no one would really be too bothered by their death. In fact, I was convinced that I was just a huge burden on everyone and I genuinely thought that if I wasn't around, everyone would be happier and have an easier life.

When you feel so badly that ending your life seems like a viable solution, or the only solution, it is close to impossible to see positivity anywhere. In the depths of depression, your mind simply twists each and every scenario into a negative one.

Calling anyone selfish for committing suicide does demonstrate a huge lack of understanding, imo. It's hardly surprising that so many people feel that they can't talk about feeling suicidal etc.

To quote my previous post:

DingosAteMyBaby wrote: »

It's not a stupid statement. In my opinion it's definitely a selfish act. From my own personal experience, seeing and living with the pain it causes friends and family, it's just horrible. It's something that we will never get over.

A few years ago I suffered from depression and was, for a brief period, suicidal. It didn't cross my mind how it would affect any of the people I love I just wanted out. Luckily I managed to get help before doing anything stupid and after experiencing firsthand the pain of losing someone to suicide, I would never contemplate again.

So yes it's definitely selfish in my eyes. I'm not saying that people who are suicidal or have taken their own life are selfish pricks or anything, I know they felt like there was no escape and that it was their only choice but I know if my friend had seen the devastation caused by his death he would never, ever have done it.

I used to cut myself, spend days alone in my room just lying in bed and after a while I became convinced that no-one cared about me or loved me or would miss me if I died. I barely talked to anyone, I ate my meals at quickly and quietly and retreated back to my room. When my mom started getting worried that I never left my room, I would pretend to meet up with friends but really I would just wander around on my own for a couple of hours, sometimes I would get drunk. It got worse and worse every day and it felt like I would never get better, never feel happy again. Until one night I called my friend and confessed everything. I don't what triggered it or how I suddenly got the courage to talk about it but I did. That was 3 years ago and thankfully I got the help I needed before I did anything stupid.

So I do understand. While I was never at the point where I was 100% determined to end my life, I have experienced some of what people go through.

qwytre · 30-08-2010 12:27PM

jessiejam wrote: »

If you think about it, it takes some serious balls to do it.

I am not sure its an act taken out of courage, more out of despair and the lowest point someone can be at.

jessiejam · 30-08-2010 12:33PM

qwytre wrote: »

I am not sure its an act taken out of courage, more out of despair and the lowest point someone can be at.

I didn't use the word courage, as i agree with you, i wouldn't say its couragous. I'm not sure there is a word to describe what i mean. I know i wouldn't have the balls to do it anyway.

Handsome Bob · 30-08-2010 12:36PM

jessiejam wrote: »

I didn't use the word courage, as i agree with you, i wouldn't say its couragous. I'm not sure there is a word to describe what i mean. I know i wouldn't have the balls to do it anyway.

It's not about having the balls though. You "not having the balls" to do it is a clear sign that you are, in all likeliness, mentally healthy. Whereas the other sign of the coin would be a clear indication that someone is in a very, very bad place mentally.

charlie1966 · 30-08-2010 12:39PM

I've only been affected by suicide in a good way. I did what was necessary for someone to get the help that the person needed after an attempt. I told the persons parents when siblings were unsure what to do. It all worked out for the best in the end. I don't think the person ever knew and probably never will, but that doesn't matter. My proudest moment after the birth of my kids.

I have never talked about it before and probably never again but it is something good I did that I can take to my grave.
My point is that even if you suspect someone needs help take it on yourself to get the ball rolling, don't wait for someone else.

Novella · 30-08-2010 12:43PM

jessiejam wrote: »

I didn't use the word courage, as i agree with you, i wouldn't say its couragous. I'm not sure there is a word to describe what i mean. I know i wouldn't have the balls to do it anyway.

It has nothing to do with "having the balls" to do it. It just becomes something that you want to do. To a person who has never experienced any mental instability etc., self harming might seem like an absurd thing to do and elicit thoughts of, "No way, that'd hurt!" but to others, self harming is a coping mechanism and the idea of it seems perfectly logical.

Maybe many people who do commit suicide are scared, but ime, the fear is more of not succeeding, not finding an escape as opposed to anything else and all of that tends to override any other kind of fear.

jessiejam · 30-08-2010 12:44PM

LZ5by5 wrote: »

It's not about having the balls though. You "not having the balls" to do it is a clear sign that you are, in all likeliness, mentally healthy. Whereas the other sign of the coin would be a clear indication that someone is in a very, very bad place mentally.

Hopefully I will remain that way. I do feel for those that are not in a good place mentally, I have seen first hand the destruction a serious mental illness causes and how depression can ruin and run every single thing in your life. A very close family member suffered from it all through my childhood. Made me more aware of the signs of mental illness than being afraid of it.
I think all kids should be taught about it as part of their schooling. To know that its not taboo anymore, the same as sexual ed was taboo a few years back. It may give them the communication and listening skills that one day might help them save a life, or even their own.

Handsome Bob · 30-08-2010 12:50PM

jessiejam wrote: »

I think all kids should be taught about it as part of their schooling. To know that its not taboo anymore, the same as sexual ed was taboo a few years back. It may give them the communication and listening skills that one day might help them save a life, or even their own.

That's a good idea, as I said earlier on it's society's problem moreso than the individual's. When someone would rather throw themselves underneath a train or off of a building rather than just admit to someone that they are struggling then there is something seriously wrong. We need to show people from an early age that illnesses such as depression are nothing to be ashamed of. It's imperative that stigmatisation is seriously tackled from a young age.

Boxoffrogs · 30-08-2010 01:02PM

My uncle committed suicide several years ago. He was suffering for years with Tinnitus, very severely and decided to end it all under a train. My family are very divided in their opinions, many won't even talk about it, in ways it's like he never existed.

I actually can't understand those that would condemn him for what he did, rather than him being the selfish one, wouldn't we be selfish for expecting him to live on in obvious suffering so that he didn't offend our sensibilities.

I understand why people can feel pain and regret when it comes to suicide but I rarely understand the anger felt.

who what when · 30-08-2010 01:03PM

Novella wrote: »

I have never known anyone who has committed suicide, but have I been affected by it? Yes. Tbph, I've attempted it. Do I think suicide is selfish? No, I don't. I really don't. If people who have killed themselves felt anything like I did, I imagine they figured that no one would really be too bothered by their death. In fact, I was convinced that I was just a huge burden on everyone and I genuinely thought that if I wasn't around, everyone would be happier and have an easier life.

When you feel so badly that ending your life seems like a viable solution, or the only solution, it is close to impossible to see positivity anywhere. In the depths of depression, your mind simply twists each and every scenario into a negative one.

Calling anyone selfish for committing suicide does demonstrate a huge lack of understanding, imo. It's hardly surprising that so many people feel that they can't talk about feeling suicidal etc.

I think so much can be learned from people like yourself. For the majority of the population suicide is a total mystery and by asking the right questions surely something can be learned about what drives a person to suicide. People like you can give some comfort to the bereaved relations of suicide victims and give them an insight into the possible thinking of the person.

Too often we look at people who have attempted suicide as attention seekers or whatever instead of saying, well that person was very close to being another statistic, what can we learn from them.

Personally i know 8 people who have killed themselves. They were of all ages, professions and totally different characters but one thing they all had in common was that they were male. And 7 of the 8 would have had alchohol problems or were drunk while they did it. Im not blaming alchohol by the way, im just saying it seems to come hand in hand!

Micky Dolenz · 30-08-2010 01:04PM

I have been affected and still am, reading back over this opens up wounds that will always hurt.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

It's not selfish, just misguided, and a clear sign of mental instability. No offence intended to anyone.

The mental health of our population is something that is grossly overlooked by us all. Anybody that wants to end their life and goes against all our natural instinct to survive has to be mentally unstable and in a very dark place.

I would not call anyone selfish as this feeds into the taboo, a taboo the family has to carry along with the raw bitter pain of losing a loved one. It would be hard to put yourself in the place of the victim, the feeling of loneliness and despair in the final moments of their lives must be overwhelming.

The Big Red Button · 30-08-2010 01:23PM

I'm very lucky in that I have never lost anyone close to me to suicide.

Dudess wrote: »

That said, I don't know whether there's anything wrong with sensitively telling a suicidal person the pain they will cause if they leave, and focusing on the things they have to live for, and there should be so much more emphasis on how there is help out there, no need to go it alone... even if the above proves fruitless in the end.

This reminds me of when I was twenty, and one of my closest friends was suffering from very bad depression ... had been, for a couple of years. She was getting treatment but at the time it didn't seem to be helping much, and she rang me one night on the verge of ending things. I got pretty angry with her and told her that she was not putting it on me, she was not going to make me live with being the last person she talked to and the person who failed to stop her from doing that and who had to tell everyone so. I convinced her to wait til the next day at least and then we'd talk.

I stayed up that night and wrote her a really long letter, I think it was about twelve A4 pages! I said a lot of things in that letter, but one thing I did was I went through, in painstaking detail, the exact effects that her suicide would have on each friend and family member - not just the immediate effects, but for years to come. I know her family well, so had a fair idea of what to write. Another thing I did was I arranged a dinner date for the two of us, three years from then, and I swore to her that she wouldn't regret staying around for it, that things would have improved incredibly by then.

The next year or so was very tough for her. I helped her any way I could. She did tell me, when things had settled down a bit, that any time she got really close to doing it, she read again what I had written about the effects of her going through with it would be. And she said that that's what stopped her.

I know that what I was doing was absolutely emotional blackmail, and not everyone would agree that I did the right thing. But you know, I don't care. She's one of my closest friends, and five years on she's one of the happiest people I know - great career, long-term relationship, a really lovely well-balanced person. She's still on medication for depression, but it's under control now. If what I did helped her even a little bit to stick around to become that person, then I don't care if it was the "right" or the "wrong" way to go about it - because it's what worked for her.

Novella · 30-08-2010 01:30PM

who what when wrote: »

I think so much can be learned from people like yourself. For the majority of the population suicide is a total mystery and by asking the right questions surely something can be learned about what drives a person to suicide. People like you can give some comfort to the bereaved relations of suicide victims and give them an insight into the possible thinking of the person.

Too often we look at people who have attempted suicide as attention seekers or whatever instead of saying, well that person was very close to being another statistic, what can we learn from them.

Personally i know 8 people who have killed themselves. They were of all ages, professions and totally different characters but one thing they all had in common was that they were male. And 7 of the 8 would have had alchohol problems or were drunk while they did it. Im not blaming alchohol by the way, im just saying it seems to come hand in hand!

You know, maybe too often all the people who commit suicide or attempt to need is a little attention, but they have no idea how to get it. I know I always felt like I wasn't worthy of attention, and tbh, I just had no idea who to turn to or what to say.

When you don't really understand what is wrong with you yourself, explaining it to another person is next to impossible... And being severely depressed, it's easy to think that no one actually cares about you anyway, or wants to help you... Or you can become convinced that there is nothing anyone can do or say to make things better.

The fact that the services for mental health are extremely lacking in this country does add to the issue, of course. Huge waiting lists, crippling costs. There's an ad on tv atm that highlights how time is critical to a person having a stroke. No one has stood up and said that time is also so important to a person who is depressed. The longer you are depressed, the harder it is to see light at the end of the tunnel.

I'm not sure what needs to be done to make people know that it is okay to admit to not being okay, but something needs to happen and it needs to happen soon.

30-08-2010 01:54PM

Dudess wrote: »

In my opinion, calling it selfish is selfish in and of itself as it displays such a lack of understanding and thought and empathy in relation to the pain the person was going through - it doesn't take their feelings/experiences into consideration. I can understand anger and lashing out though, but to see it in terms as simple as "It's selfish to do that to the people left behind" doesn't seem fair.
It is an awful thing to do to a family, but not necessarily selfish in intent, and borne out of such horrific suffering.

I never understood people who think it's selfish. Is it not more selfish to expect someone to live with an enormous amount of anguish just so they don't hurt other people? What about that person's feelings?

I think it doesn't help that so many people just brush depression and anxiety under the carpet. I know that several times in my life I've felt desperate and at rock bottom and tried to reach out to someone who just said 'ah pull yourself together, sure you have a grand life.' Expressing negative thoughts is seen as 'moaning', so I think people tend to keep it all inside and put on a brave face and that's a recipe for disaster. I've heard so many people say 'X had everything going for them' after someone committed suicide. Well, they obviously didn't, did they? You don't kill yourself for the laugh.

cynder · 30-08-2010 02:18PM

Edit:

cynder · 30-08-2010 02:23PM

Edit:

Novella · 30-08-2010 02:29PM

grindelwald wrote: »

TBH i didnt want attention, I WANTED TO BE DEAD.

I don't get this attention thing, how can they get the attention when there dead, after saying that some only half do it ( i knew a girl who did that, that must have been an attention thing).

I suppose at the end of the day its the frame of mind your in.

I didn't say want, I said need. I do think that people who are suicidal need attention, medical attention.

The Big Red Button · 30-08-2010 02:31PM

grindelwald wrote: »

TBH i didnt want attention, I WANTED TO BE DEAD.

I don't get this attention thing, how can they get the attention when there dead, after saying that some only half do it ( i knew a girl who did that, that must have been an attention thing).

I suppose at the end of the day its the frame of mind your in.

This girl you're referring to, just because she attempted suicide and wasn't successful in her attempt, it doesn't mean that you can brush it off as an "attention thing". I don't get the impression that you know her or her circumstances well enough to judge that - if indeed anyone has the right to make these judgements!

Every individual is different. Just because you felt a certain way doesn't mean that you can apply your frame of mind at the time to anyone else, and it doesn't mean that you can judge other people who have attempted suicide.

By the way, I don't think that Novella meant that people attempt suicide in an angsty attention-seeker way - it's far more complex than that. Often if someone does something as a cry for help, they're not even aware themselves that they need or want any help, or at least not for a long time afterwards.

thefishone · 30-08-2010 02:35PM

grindelwald wrote: »

. From then i built myself up something no one could do for me. Now 15 years later I'm a lot stronger, i think that i would be even stronger than the average Joe.

Well done. From my own point,my brother tried to kill himself twice,thought he was doing us all a favour and then a time came when he decided to get help and look to the future,he died in his sleep,from the damage he had done to
himself.

jessiejam · 30-08-2010 02:36PM

If they spent half as much money on mental health awareness and treatment clinics for young people, as they do on the RSA. This country would see the deaths of young people reduce, I have no doubt about it.

There are more deaths every year in this country by suicide than there are by RTA's
Some of those RTA's may be suicides too, who knows.

It all boils down to making kids at a young age understand that its ok for the brain to be sick as well as the body.

Have you ever being affected by suicide?

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