Proposal for concerted protest

hinault · 25-08-2010 07:42PM #1

I hope the moderators here will allow me to repost an idea expressed
by a contributor to Dr Constantin Gudgiev's site True Economics
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/
I was asked to post an suggestion.

A contributor, nosheep, has posted a suggestion that depositors should on a pre-agreed date withdraw an amount which they can afford from one of the 6 State guaranteed banks and lodge the withdrawal to An Post or some other entity - as a symbol of our unhappiness with the goverments management of the financial crisis engulfing this country (see here)
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/08/economics-25810-s-horrific-cost-of.html

This peaceful expression of our opposition to the goverment policy concerning NAMA/recapitalisation, might just make the politicians listen if enough people take part.

Would you be willing to take part in such a demonstration?

ideas/suggestions are welcome.

hmmm · 25-08-2010 07:49PM

The government knows how unpopular it is.

Mister men · 25-08-2010 07:59PM

I went to an anti govenment march few months back. Believe it or not only between 1000-1500 people even bothered turning up. I applaud any effort made to protest the present governments mishandling of the economy but alas the vast majority of Irish people just don't care enough about this country to bother protesting.

Count Dooku · 25-08-2010 08:04PM

Why?
Nobody will see protest, because media will hide it again as they did it with 12/09/09 protest

Another danger is that left wing looneys will try to steal all attention, as it was 19/09

Brussels Sprout · 25-08-2010 08:07PM

Better than sitting on my hands-I'm in!

demonspawn · 25-08-2010 08:10PM

Another popular proposal was to roll up all the bankers in expensive carpets and beat them with shillelaghs. I prefer that proposal tbh as I really have no money to take out of the bank.

rightwingdub · 25-08-2010 09:52PM

demonspawn wrote: »

Another popular proposal was to roll up all the bankers in expensive carpets and beat them with shillelaghs. I prefer that proposal tbh as I really have no money to take out of the bank.

I'd prefer to line the bankers up aginst a wall like they do in china for corruption.

nosheep · 25-08-2010 10:37PM

I am the original poster on Dr. Gurdgiev's blog.

The purpose is not to show how unpopular the Government is. That is already clear. The purpose is to show that we citizens still have some power to object to the situation. We may have no vote or influence with the politicians or the bank management. We may be very angry and feel there is nothing we can do. But every day we continue to prop up these disastourous banks (and implicity the politicans) by leaving our hard-earned cash on deposit with them. Why do we do this?

Imagine if the Government and the banks thought that all deposit money could be withdrawn by a concerted action by the people! I'm not saying we do this, just that we make a symbolic withdrawl of even just Euro 10. It is not important the total cash amount for this first action. What is important is the amount of withdrawls that are made at the same time. This is where the power can be displayed. Most people would at least have 10 Euro that they can withdraw. I know that I have 4 accounts in the "Guarantee-6" banks, thankfully each with more than 10 Euro. I'm sure others will have more than one account too. The cash can be re-invested in An Post, or one's local Credit Union, a foreign-owned bank or even oneself. So it doesn't cost anything, only the time to make the transfer. With Intertnet banking, this can be all set up in advance.

A concerted effort is do-able with as I said pre-prepared Internet transactions, Twitter, Facebook, texting, etc. We will need a pre-defined reference on transactions, so there is a record in the banks of the protest. We will also need to totalise the transactions for our own measurements, obviously without names or account numbers. All possible in today's Internet age.

I'm not hung up on the amount or the date. Actually, it has been pointed out to me that the 10-10-10 is actually a Sunday, so that would be problematic

, but also I think that would be too late.

Today's events with the Bond markets mean that the country is rapidly running out of time. If we citizens do nothing, we are accepting our sentence of 10-20 years of miserable economic existance. I have lived through the 80's, one third of my class emigrated and never returned. This time, it will be far worse and I may be one of them, but not without doing something first.

So, please give this some serious thought.

MrDarcy · 25-08-2010 11:04PM

nosheep wrote: »

Today's events with the Bond markets mean that the country is rapidly running out of time. If we citizens do nothing, we are accepting our sentence of 10-20 years of miserable economic existance.

I disagree completely. We need a default in this country. The private sector is being hammered into obliviation. The public sector as always are being protected by powerful vested interest unions. We simply cannot afford to continue running a country in the manner that we are currently doing. Serious cuts need to be made in the public sector, both in terms of the numbers employed in there and the remuneration of those who are not surplus to requirements. The only way I can see us getting the necessary changes made now is to let someone else come over here and make the changes for us. The selfish greedy bsatards who hide behind PS unions who have been pandered to, accommodated and continually protected here while hundreds of thousands of people either languish on the dole hopelessly or else leave the country, this is where the austerity needs to be focussed on. We haven't the nuts to give them a dose of reality here so let's welcome in some other organisation that'll take care of our business for us.

RichardAnd · 25-08-2010 11:27PM

MrDarcy wrote: »

I disagree completely. We need a default in this country. The private sector is being hammered into obliviation. The public sector as always are being protected by powerful vested interest unions. We simply cannot afford to continue running a country in the manner that we are currently doing. Serious cuts need to be made in the public sector, both in terms of the numbers employed in there and the remuneration of those who are not surplus to requirements. The only way I can see us getting the necessary changes made now is to let someone else come over here and make the changes for us. The selfish greedy bsatards who hide behind PS unions who have been pandered to, accommodated and continually protected here while hundreds of thousands of people either languish on the dole hopelessly or else leave the country, this is where the austerity needs to be focussed on. We haven't the nuts to give them a dose of reality here so let's welcome in some other organisation that'll take care of our business for us.

I agree that an outside body is needed to sort out the public sector. If it were left to the departments themselves to cut numbers by 20%, you would find the "lads" keep their jobs while the single mothers and quiet hard workers get the chop.

demonspawn · 25-08-2010 11:32PM

The following is a film about how people in other countries deal with their corrupt politicians and greedy bankers. Symbolic demonstrations and peaceful protests don't work. Why? Because the people you're trying to reach don't give a flying f**k about you or what you think. They just want you to keep working, keep paying your taxes, keep consuming.

Please watch the whole film if you have time, it's a real eye opener.

nosheep · 25-08-2010 11:36PM

I personally agree that we need to default on much of Anglo's debt, we may even have to default on Soverign debt. And there is merit in what you say about Public Service costs. But waiting/wishing for someone else to solve our problems is irresponsible. In fact, this is what has gotten us into this mess, by us citizens not being responsible in how our country is run.

We allowed, by dis-interest, laziness, ignorance, self-interest or whatever reasons, the current Fianna Fail led Governement to be elected not once, not twice, but three times. It is time for us to start taking back control of this republic, and get Government by the people for the people. Not by corrupt/incompetent politicans for selfish vested interests.

There is a story told about the Intel founders, in the early days, when they were facing multiple problems. One suggested bringing in a consultant to help them. The other asked "What would they tell us?" "Well, they would say do A, B and C" was the reply. So the other founder said "Let's not bring in the consultant, and do A, B and C anyway". And they did.

We already know what A B and C is. Why should we wait for someone else to tell us? Let us begin to take control, let's start with our money deposited with the banks. And by doing so, we will let the politicians and the vested interest entities know that we are no longer willing to accept their way.

MrDarcy · 25-08-2010 11:44PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

I agree that an outside body is needed to sort out the public sector. If it were left to the departments themselves to cut numbers by 20%, you would find the "lads" keep their jobs while the single mothers and quiet hard workers get the chop.

I don't know why people are so terrified of a default. I'm sick of taking the hit and I'm not taking any more austerity. I'm not seeing people in the private sector emmigrating en mass, ending up on the dole with no hope of employment, some people not even being able to feed themselves or their families, while the folks down in tax office or the Dept of Social & Family affairs decide that because their pay gets bumped back down to 600 Euro a week AFTER deductions, that they will not answer the phones or turn off the fire alarms or whatever.

This whole thing has just gotten completely out of hand, it's so far beyond unacceptable that I'd welcome default. All those 500,000 people on the dole who lost their jobs and their prospects, their dignity, they all experienced what a default was when their employers ended up being insolvent and couldn't pay their bills as they fell due. That's what a default feels like, 500,000 people in the private sector felt it, many more know it's around the corner for them, but not a single public sector worker will face redundancy, voluntary or otherwise, as per the Croke Park Deal, yet we borrow 55 million a day to accommodate this sh*t.

hinault · 26-08-2010 12:03AM

nosheep wrote: »

I am the original poster on Dr. Gurdgiev's blog.

The purpose is not to show how unpopular the Government is. That is already clear. The purpose is to show that we citizens still have some power to object to the situation. We may have no vote or influence with the politicians or the bank management. We may be very angry and feel there is nothing we can do. But every day we continue to prop up these disastourous banks (and implicity the politicans) by leaving our hard-earned cash on deposit with them. Why do we do this?

Imagine if the Government and the banks thought that all deposit money could be withdrawn by a concerted action by the people! I'm not saying we do this, just that we make a symbolic withdrawl of even just Euro 10. It is not important the total cash amount for this first action. What is important is the amount of withdrawls that are made at the same time. This is where the power can be displayed. Most people would at least have 10 Euro that they can withdraw. I know that I have 4 accounts in the "Guarantee-6" banks, thankfully each with more than 10 Euro. I'm sure others will have more than one account too. The cash can be re-invested in An Post, or one's local Credit Union, a foreign-owned bank or even oneself. So it doesn't cost anything, only the time to make the transfer. With Intertnet banking, this can be all set up in advance.

A concerted effort is do-able with as I said pre-prepared Internet transactions, Twitter, Facebook, texting, etc. We will need a pre-defined reference on transactions, so there is a record in the banks of the protest. We will also need to totalise the transactions for our own measurements, obviously without names or account numbers. All possible in today's Internet age.

I'm not hung up on the amount or the date. Actually, it has been pointed out to me that the 10-10-10 is actually a Sunday, so that would be problematic , but also I think that would be too late.

Today's events with the Bond markets mean that the country is rapidly running out of time. If we citizens do nothing, we are accepting our sentence of 10-20 years of miserable economic existance. I have lived through the 80's, one third of my class emigrated and never returned. This time, it will be far worse and I may be one of them, but not without doing something first.

So, please give this some serious thought.

We need to send a signal - a clear signal - to the politicians and bankers that we do have power and that we can exercise that power.

I will participate in this symbollic gesture.

Let's agree a date and publicise a date when account holders in guaranteed State banks withdraw money on that given date for their account, and not relodge to another State-backed guaranteed bank.
(spend the money, or put it under the mattress, or put it on a horse, just dont relodge the money to one of the bailed out banks).

the more people we can get to do this, the better.

I think it's an excellent idea.

Remember money talks!:)

nosheep · 26-08-2010 12:48AM

hinault wrote: »

Let's agree a date and publicise a date when account holders in guaranteed State banks withdraw money on that given date for their account, and not relodge to another State-backed guaranteed bank.

I think we need to do this just before the Dail resumes, so that we get maximum exposure with the protest/results, and it's not forgotten before the debates start. That would be 27/28 September. I think the Monday (27 September) would be a good day.

I think a simple name would be good, like "10Euro" day. www.10euro.ie and www.10euroday.ie are available. I'll look at registering tomorrow (today). We will need email, youtube, facebook, twitter etc. so that we hit all the channels. We'll also need to hit the traditional media like newspapers, radio, even TV, but closer to the event.

Anyone with expertise in any of the above? All help, however small, would be appreciated.

hinault · 26-08-2010 08:49AM

nosheep wrote: »

I think we need to do this just before the Dail resumes, so that we get maximum exposure with the protest/results, and it's not forgotten before the debates start. That would be 27/28 September. I think the Monday (27 September) would be a good day.

I think a simple name would be good, like "10Euro" day. www.10euro.ie and www.10euroday.ie are available. I'll look at registering tomorrow (today). We will need email, youtube, facebook, twitter etc. so that we hit all the channels. We'll also need to hit the traditional media like newspapers, radio, even TV, but closer to the event.

Anyone with expertise in any of the above? All help, however small, would be appreciated.

OK, Monday 27th September 2010 is "10 Euro Day".

I have several contacts in the media and I will spread the word there.
Will do put this idea on to my Facebook page too and will email all my contacts.

Let's see where this takes us!

nosheep · 26-08-2010 09:29AM

hinault wrote: »

OK, Monday 27th September 2010 is "10 Euro Day".

I have several contacts in the media and I will spread the word there.
Will do put this idea on to my Facebook page too and will email all my contacts.

Let's see where this takes us!

That's great! I'll work on the infrastructure stuff this morning.

We'll need some way of recording how many people make the protest of the 10 euro withdrawl. I'm thinking of something like a mobile text poll, where they just text a number when they've done their thing. It has to be easy, simple, and probably free for them to use. We'll also want to be able to see the results, i.e. the number of people making the protest, as it happens. The main thing is we can show how much support we got.

We may want to do a trial run with a limited group of people the week before, so that we can iron out any problems.

I've not done this before, so anyone else's wisdom would be appreciated at this stage...

nosheep · 26-08-2010 10:15AM

From a comment by 'The Nit' on the blog referred to in #1 above:

"It by seems to me that it will be the property tax that will provide the best chance to make a stance on fiscal issues. I can't imagine people being happy about being taxed on their main asset, especially if it is underwater by 10% or more.
PAYE is an automatic deduction for those on salaries, so its not as if one could effectively organize the non-payment of income tax, but this problem does not apply to property tax since it will be up to us to get assessed and file the necessary payments. This tax, if introduced in the manner in which I assume it will be, provides the best chance for fiscal resistance."

I am delighted that more and more people are contemplating some form of activism. How

However, I have a few points to make about a property tax protest:

Property Tax will probably not become law until mid-December at the earliest, and payment not due for quite a while after that. This will be way too late in my opinion to influence anything.
While I have no problems with individuals taking responsibility and deciding to withhold payment and essentially break the law, I cannot put my name to advocating others to do it.
By breaking the law, we weaken our argument and give the Government the upper hand. Many people will think twice about going up against the Collector General, who always wins.
I prefer to tackle the problem as close as possible to the source, i.e . the banking bail-out. We're supporting the banks and their bail-out by leaving our cash deposits with them. Let's let them know we don't have to do this.

MrDarcy · 26-08-2010 11:19AM

nosheep wrote: »

That's great! I'll work on the infrastructure stuff this morning.

We'll need some way of recording how many people make the protest of the 10 euro withdrawl. I'm thinking of something like a mobile text poll, where they just text a number when they've done their thing. It has to be easy, simple, and probably free for them to use. We'll also want to be able to see the results, i.e. the number of people making the protest, as it happens. The main thing is we can show how much support we got.

We may want to do a trial run with a limited group of people the week before, so that we can iron out any problems.

I've not done this before, so anyone else's wisdom would be appreciated at this stage...

I admire your hands on approach but I imagine the point is lost on hundreds of thousands of people on state benefit who in all probability have sweet f*ck all in the bank to withdraw...

Laminations · 26-08-2010 11:30AM

MrDarcy wrote: »

I admire your hands on approach but I imagine the point is lost on hundreds of thousands of people on state benefit who in all probability have sweet f*ck all in the bank to withdraw...

They are not losing or spending any money here, they would just be moving 10 euros, I think this is the best idea I've seen so far for a protest against the banking bailout strategy of this government.

I'm in

nosheep · 26-08-2010 01:01PM

Lamination, Thanks for the clarification, and the support. Maybe we need something like a 'pledge', where we can take some contact details and remind people closer to the date that we need their help.

OK, just an update on progress.

I've set up a blog (http://10euroday.blogspot.com)
We've also got an email (10euroday@gmail.com )
and twitter account (http://twitter.com/10euroday)

I'm trying to set up a facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/10euroDay) but having difficulty getting visible on the web.
Hinault, maybe you can help here?

The IE domsain www.10euroday.ie requires a signed document about the 10 Euro Day "organisation", so this might take a while. We might have to look at www.10euroday.org.

Brussels Sprout · 26-08-2010 04:05PM

Probably too late at this stage but would it be better to make it an irregular amount such as 10 euro and 10 cent. That way it won't be mixed up with regular punters who are withdrawing a tenner on that day anyway.

RichardAnd · 26-08-2010 04:48PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Probably too late at this stage but would it be better to make it an irregular amount such as 10 euro and 10 cent. That way it won't be mixed up with regular punters who are withdrawing a tenner on that day anyway.

That is a good idea but as you can't draw irregular amounts from ATM machines, it would require people to actually go into the bank which is a hassle. Thus, less people would be inclined to take part.

MrDarcy · 26-08-2010 04:57PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

That is a good idea but as you can't draw irregular amounts from ATM machines, it would require people to actually go into the bank which is a hassle. Thus, less people would be inclined to take part.

What's the deal with a 10 Euro amount though??? If you have 1,000 Euro on deposit and you decide to take 10 Euro out or 10.10 Euro out, by leaving the other 9,990 Euro or 9989.90 Euro in there on deposit you are only making a statement on yourself and your acceptance of the bank and your view that you trust the bank to mind your money.

If alternatively you want to make a real statement that you don't trust the bank or the government which is bailing out the bank, then take all your f*cking money out and say it loud and clear. Do up a letter asking for your account to be closed, and post that up on a central website, explaining your actions and the cause of your actions. Taking 10 Euro out of your bank account while leaving any other amount in there is only making an idiot out of yourself in my opinion...

Colonel Sanders · 26-08-2010 05:40PM

MrDarcy wrote: »

What's the deal with a 10 Euro amount though??? If you have 1,000 Euro on deposit and you decide to take 10 Euro out or 10.10 Euro out, by leaving the other 9,990 Euro or 9989.90 Euro in there on deposit you are only making a statement on yourself and your acceptance of the bank and your view that you trust the bank to mind your money.

If alternatively you want to make a real statement that you don't trust the bank or the government which is bailing out the bank, then take all your f*cking money out and say it loud and clear. Do up a letter asking for your account to be closed, and post that up on a central website, explaining your actions and the cause of your actions. Taking 10 Euro out of your bank account while leaving any other amount in there is only making an idiot out of yourself in my opinion...

Maybe a little more strongly worded than I'd put it but somewhat agree

All my savings are with banks covered by deposit guarantees other than the Irish governments. I have a current account with PTSB but rarely have much in it

hinault · 26-08-2010 05:45PM

nosheep wrote: »

Lamination, Thanks for the clarification, and the support. Maybe we need something like a 'pledge', where we can take some contact details and remind people closer to the date that we need their help.

OK, just an update on progress.

I've set up a blog (http://10euroday.blogspot.com)
We've also got an email (10euroday@gmail.com )
and twitter account (http://twitter.com/10euroday)

I'm trying to set up a facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/10euroDay) but having difficulty getting visible on the web.
Hinault, maybe you can help here?

The IE domsain www.10euroday.ie requires a signed document about the 10 Euro Day "organisation", so this might take a while. We might have to look at www.10euroday.org.

No Sheep,

I'm not on Facebook but I know someone who is and I've asked them to set up 10Euroday page.

nosheep · 26-08-2010 06:24PM

MrDarcy wrote: »

What's the deal with a 10 Euro amount though??? If you have 1,000 Euro on deposit and you decide to take 10 Euro out or 10.10 Euro out, by leaving the other 9,990 Euro or 9989.90 Euro in there on deposit you are only making a statement on yourself and your acceptance of the bank and your view that you trust the bank to mind your money.

By taking the 10 Euro, what we're saying is that we're able and willing to take the 9,990 Euro or 9989.90 whenever we want, if the banking strategy does not change.

MrDarcy wrote: »

If alternatively you want to make a real statement that you don't trust the bank or the government which is bailing out the bank, then take all your f*cking money out and say it loud and clear. Do up a letter asking for your account to be closed, and post that up on a central website, explaining your actions and the cause of your actions. Taking 10 Euro out of your bank account while leaving any other amount in there is only making an idiot out of yourself in my opinion...

This action is open to everyone, and I get the feeling that many on this forum have limited their funds with the banks. That's good, we need to get an awful lot more people thinking about why they've left their hard-earned cash with one of the Guarantee-6 banks.

But as I answered in another thread, it would be at least irresponsible and possibly dangerous to advocate taking all the cash out of the banks in a coordinated and synchronised move. It could spark a "run" on one or more of the banks, or at least have a number of unknown consequences. This is why we're going for the symbolic but widespread withdrawal of the 10 Euro.

Pete_Cavan · 26-08-2010 07:05PM

nosheep wrote: »

Imagine if the Government and the banks thought that all deposit money could be withdrawn by a concerted action by the people! I'm not saying we do this, just that we make a symbolic withdrawl of even just Euro 10.

This would annoy the government but only because it would make Irish bonds less attractive to the international markets meaning they are harder to sell and we would raise less moeny. Investors will omly invest their money stable countries, would you lend your money to a reckless person? We havent rocked the boat too much so far, we havent seen large scale strikes like in Greece and Spain, and the international market seems pleased that we have taken the austeritys measures so well (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/ireland-one-piigs-club-member-seeking-eviction/article1519556/).

This is proven by the fact that today the sale of Irish bonds were oversubscribed despite the fact that our credit rating was cut just two days ealier (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-borrowing-costs-fall-in-euro600m-sale-of-bills-2312616.html). As a result we have sold 25 per cent of the bonds we need for this year, compared with 9 per cent for Spain. We are weathering the storm quite well, according to international banks such as Deutsche Bank who recently encouraged investors to sell securities in Spain and buy Irish ones instead (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0118/breaking31.html).

I am not defending the government, and your protest is imaginative and fair play for making such an effort, but withdrawing the money could cause the bond market to lose faith in us making in hard and more expensive for us to borrow money. So you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

zielarz · 26-08-2010 07:22PM

Organize a proper bank run and I will support it. In my opinon you will achieve nothing, it's better to organize a real run and make those banks bankrupt. At least the government will stop bailing them out with our money.

nosheep · 26-08-2010 07:45PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This would annoy the government but only because it would make Irish bonds less attractive to the international markets meaning they are harder to sell and we would raise less moeny. Investors will omly invest their money stable countries, would you lend your money to a reckless person? We havent rocked the boat too much so far, we havent seen large scale strikes like in Greece and Spain, and the international market seems pleased that we have taken the austeritys measures so well (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/ireland-one-piigs-club-member-seeking-eviction/article1519556/).

This is proven by the fact that today the sale of Irish bonds were oversubscribed despite the fact that our credit rating was cut just two days ealier (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-borrowing-costs-fall-in-euro600m-sale-of-bills-2312616.html). As a result we have sold 25 per cent of the bonds we need for this year, compared with 9 per cent for Spain. We are weathering the storm quite well, according to international banks such as Deutsche Bank who recently encouraged investors to sell securities in Spain and buy Irish ones instead (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0118/breaking31.html).

I am not defending the government, and your protest is imaginative and fair play for making such an effort, but withdrawing the money could cause the bond market to lose faith in us making in hard and more expensive for us to borrow money. So you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Pete, Thanks for the comments. MrDarcy reckons no impact (to put it mildly) and you suspect the bond markets could rocket. So we're probably pitching at the right level.

Seriously, the bond sale today was for short term debt, hard to read into the figures for that. The real test is in September, when there will be 30 billion Euro up for grabs. My own view is that what we're doing with Anglo and the rubbish we're getting from the others/NAMA is the cause of the uncertainty. They are worried the figures are far worse than the Governemt know, and that we are at risk to have a Soverign default. If Anglo was allowed fold/negotiate default, the markets would not like it but eventually stabilise. That's why we need to force a change.

hinault · 26-08-2010 07:57PM

Just taking up Sheeps point, September 2010 will see a lot of other sovereign debt being rolled over.

Several other European countries are due to to rollover sovereign debt, so I wonder what the appetite would be for Irish bonds compared to say French bonds being auctioned in September 2010?
That's when we will see how the markets really view this country's bonds.

I will reiterate it again : the purpose of this protest is to send a message to the govt and the bankers.
It's a peacable protest and as such the objective is to try to persuade the govt and bankers not to be spending billions on banks like Anglo.

The billions earmarked to be poured in to Anglo will never be repaid.

Proposal for concerted protest

Comments