Proposal for concerted protest

hinault

I hope the moderators here will allow me to repost an idea expressed
by a contributor to Dr Constantin Gudgiev's site True Economics
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/
I was asked to post an suggestion.

A contributor, nosheep, has posted a suggestion that depositors should on a pre-agreed date withdraw an amount which they can afford from one of the 6 State guaranteed banks and lodge the withdrawal to An Post or some other entity - as a symbol of our unhappiness with the goverments management of the financial crisis engulfing this country (see here)
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/08/economics-25810-s-horrific-cost-of.html

This peaceful expression of our opposition to the goverment policy concerning NAMA/recapitalisation, might just make the politicians listen if enough people take part.


Would you be willing to take part in such a demonstration?

ideas/suggestions are welcome.

hmmm

The government knows how unpopular it is.

Mister men

I went to an anti govenment march few months back. Believe it or not only between 1000-1500 people even bothered turning up. I applaud any effort made to protest the present governments mishandling of the economy but alas the vast majority of Irish people just don't care enough about this country to bother protesting.

Count Dooku

Why?
Nobody will see protest, because media will hide it again as they did it with 12/09/09 protest






Another danger is that left wing looneys will try to steal all attention, as it was 19/09

Brussels Sprout

Better than sitting on my hands-I'm in!

demonspawn

Another popular proposal was to roll up all the bankers in expensive carpets and beat them with shillelaghs. I prefer that proposal tbh as I really have no money to take out of the bank.

rightwingdub

demonspawn wrote: »

Another popular proposal was to roll up all the bankers in expensive carpets and beat them with shillelaghs. I prefer that proposal tbh as I really have no money to take out of the bank.

I'd prefer to line the bankers up aginst a wall like they do in china for corruption.

nosheep

I am the original poster on Dr. Gurdgiev's blog.

The purpose is not to show how unpopular the Government is. That is already clear. The purpose is to show that we citizens still have some power to object to the situation. We may have no vote or influence with the politicians or the bank management. We may be very angry and feel there is nothing we can do. But every day we continue to prop up these disastourous banks (and implicity the politicans) by leaving our hard-earned cash on deposit with them. Why do we do this?

Imagine if the Government and the banks thought that all deposit money could be withdrawn by a concerted action by the people! I'm not saying we do this, just that we make a symbolic withdrawl of even just Euro 10. It is not important the total cash amount for this first action. What is important is the amount of withdrawls that are made at the same time. This is where the power can be displayed. Most people would at least have 10 Euro that they can withdraw. I know that I have 4 accounts in the "Guarantee-6" banks, thankfully each with more than 10 Euro. I'm sure others will have more than one account too. The cash can be re-invested in An Post, or one's local Credit Union, a foreign-owned bank or even oneself. So it doesn't cost anything, only the time to make the transfer. With Intertnet banking, this can be all set up in advance.

A concerted effort is do-able with as I said pre-prepared Internet transactions, Twitter, Facebook, texting, etc. We will need a pre-defined reference on transactions, so there is a record in the banks of the protest. We will also need to totalise the transactions for our own measurements, obviously without names or account numbers. All possible in today's Internet age.

I'm not hung up on the amount or the date. Actually, it has been pointed out to me that the 10-10-10 is actually a Sunday, so that would be problematic , but also I think that would be too late.

Today's events with the Bond markets mean that the country is rapidly running out of time. If we citizens do nothing, we are accepting our sentence of 10-20 years of miserable economic existance. I have lived through the 80's, one third of my class emigrated and never returned. This time, it will be far worse and I may be one of them, but not without doing something first.

So, please give this some serious thought.

MrDarcy

nosheep wrote: »

Today's events with the Bond markets mean that the country is rapidly running out of time. If we citizens do nothing, we are accepting our sentence of 10-20 years of miserable economic existance.

I disagree completely. We need a default in this country. The private sector is being hammered into obliviation. The public sector as always are being protected by powerful vested interest unions. We simply cannot afford to continue running a country in the manner that we are currently doing. Serious cuts need to be made in the public sector, both in terms of the numbers employed in there and the remuneration of those who are not surplus to requirements. The only way I can see us getting the necessary changes made now is to let someone else come over here and make the changes for us. The selfish greedy bsatards who hide behind PS unions who have been pandered to, accommodated and continually protected here while hundreds of thousands of people either languish on the dole hopelessly or else leave the country, this is where the austerity needs to be focussed on. We haven't the nuts to give them a dose of reality here so let's welcome in some other organisation that'll take care of our business for us.

RichardAnd

MrDarcy wrote: »

I disagree completely. We need a default in this country. The private sector is being hammered into obliviation. The public sector as always are being protected by powerful vested interest unions. We simply cannot afford to continue running a country in the manner that we are currently doing. Serious cuts need to be made in the public sector, both in terms of the numbers employed in there and the remuneration of those who are not surplus to requirements. The only way I can see us getting the necessary changes made now is to let someone else come over here and make the changes for us. The selfish greedy bsatards who hide behind PS unions who have been pandered to, accommodated and continually protected here while hundreds of thousands of people either languish on the dole hopelessly or else leave the country, this is where the austerity needs to be focussed on. We haven't the nuts to give them a dose of reality here so let's welcome in some other organisation that'll take care of our business for us.

I agree that an outside body is needed to sort out the public sector. If it were left to the departments themselves to cut numbers by 20%, you would find the "lads" keep their jobs while the single mothers and quiet hard workers get the chop.

demonspawn

The following is a film about how people in other countries deal with their corrupt politicians and greedy bankers. Symbolic demonstrations and peaceful protests don't work. Why? Because the people you're trying to reach don't give a flying f**k about you or what you think. They just want you to keep working, keep paying your taxes, keep consuming.

Please watch the whole film if you have time, it's a real eye opener.

nosheep

I personally agree that we need to default on much of Anglo's debt, we may even have to default on Soverign debt. And there is merit in what you say about Public Service costs. But waiting/wishing for someone else to solve our problems is irresponsible. In fact, this is what has gotten us into this mess, by us citizens not being responsible in how our country is run.

We allowed, by dis-interest, laziness, ignorance, self-interest or whatever reasons, the current Fianna Fail led Governement to be elected not once, not twice, but three times. It is time for us to start taking back control of this republic, and get Government by the people for the people. Not by corrupt/incompetent politicans for selfish vested interests.

There is a story told about the Intel founders, in the early days, when they were facing multiple problems. One suggested bringing in a consultant to help them. The other asked "What would they tell us?" "Well, they would say do A, B and C" was the reply. So the other founder said "Let's not bring in the consultant, and do A, B and C anyway". And they did.

We already know what A B and C is. Why should we wait for someone else to tell us? Let us begin to take control, let's start with our money deposited with the banks. And by doing so, we will let the politicians and the vested interest entities know that we are no longer willing to accept their way.

MrDarcy

RichardAnd wrote: »

I agree that an outside body is needed to sort out the public sector. If it were left to the departments themselves to cut numbers by 20%, you would find the "lads" keep their jobs while the single mothers and quiet hard workers get the chop.

I don't know why people are so terrified of a default. I'm sick of taking the hit and I'm not taking any more austerity. I'm not seeing people in the private sector emmigrating en mass, ending up on the dole with no hope of employment, some people not even being able to feed themselves or their families, while the folks down in tax office or the Dept of Social & Family affairs decide that because their pay gets bumped back down to 600 Euro a week AFTER deductions, that they will not answer the phones or turn off the fire alarms or whatever.

This whole thing has just gotten completely out of hand, it's so far beyond unacceptable that I'd welcome default. All those 500,000 people on the dole who lost their jobs and their prospects, their dignity, they all experienced what a default was when their employers ended up being insolvent and couldn't pay their bills as they fell due. That's what a default feels like, 500,000 people in the private sector felt it, many more know it's around the corner for them, but not a single public sector worker will face redundancy, voluntary or otherwise, as per the Croke Park Deal, yet we borrow 55 million a day to accommodate this sh*t.

hinault

nosheep wrote: »

I am the original poster on Dr. Gurdgiev's blog.

The purpose is not to show how unpopular the Government is. That is already clear. The purpose is to show that we citizens still have some power to object to the situation. We may have no vote or influence with the politicians or the bank management. We may be very angry and feel there is nothing we can do. But every day we continue to prop up these disastourous banks (and implicity the politicans) by leaving our hard-earned cash on deposit with them. Why do we do this?

Imagine if the Government and the banks thought that all deposit money could be withdrawn by a concerted action by the people! I'm not saying we do this, just that we make a symbolic withdrawl of even just Euro 10. It is not important the total cash amount for this first action. What is important is the amount of withdrawls that are made at the same time. This is where the power can be displayed. Most people would at least have 10 Euro that they can withdraw. I know that I have 4 accounts in the "Guarantee-6" banks, thankfully each with more than 10 Euro. I'm sure others will have more than one account too. The cash can be re-invested in An Post, or one's local Credit Union, a foreign-owned bank or even oneself. So it doesn't cost anything, only the time to make the transfer. With Intertnet banking, this can be all set up in advance.

A concerted effort is do-able with as I said pre-prepared Internet transactions, Twitter, Facebook, texting, etc. We will need a pre-defined reference on transactions, so there is a record in the banks of the protest. We will also need to totalise the transactions for our own measurements, obviously without names or account numbers. All possible in today's Internet age.

I'm not hung up on the amount or the date. Actually, it has been pointed out to me that the 10-10-10 is actually a Sunday, so that would be problematic , but also I think that would be too late.

Today's events with the Bond markets mean that the country is rapidly running out of time. If we citizens do nothing, we are accepting our sentence of 10-20 years of miserable economic existance. I have lived through the 80's, one third of my class emigrated and never returned. This time, it will be far worse and I may be one of them, but not without doing something first.

So, please give this some serious thought.

We need to send a signal - a clear signal - to the politicians and bankers that we do have power and that we can exercise that power.

I will participate in this symbollic gesture.

Let's agree a date and publicise a date when account holders in guaranteed State banks withdraw money on that given date for their account, and not relodge to another State-backed guaranteed bank.
(spend the money, or put it under the mattress, or put it on a horse, just dont relodge the money to one of the bailed out banks).

the more people we can get to do this, the better.

I think it's an excellent idea.

Remember money talks!:)

nosheep

hinault wrote: »

Let's agree a date and publicise a date when account holders in guaranteed State banks withdraw money on that given date for their account, and not relodge to another State-backed guaranteed bank.

I think we need to do this just before the Dail resumes, so that we get maximum exposure with the protest/results, and it's not forgotten before the debates start. That would be 27/28 September. I think the Monday (27 September) would be a good day.

I think a simple name would be good, like "10Euro" day. www.10euro.ie and www.10euroday.ie are available. I'll look at registering tomorrow (today). We will need email, youtube, facebook, twitter etc. so that we hit all the channels. We'll also need to hit the traditional media like newspapers, radio, even TV, but closer to the event.

Anyone with expertise in any of the above? All help, however small, would be appreciated.

hinault

nosheep wrote: »

I think we need to do this just before the Dail resumes, so that we get maximum exposure with the protest/results, and it's not forgotten before the debates start. That would be 27/28 September. I think the Monday (27 September) would be a good day.

I think a simple name would be good, like "10Euro" day. www.10euro.ie and www.10euroday.ie are available. I'll look at registering tomorrow (today). We will need email, youtube, facebook, twitter etc. so that we hit all the channels. We'll also need to hit the traditional media like newspapers, radio, even TV, but closer to the event.

Anyone with expertise in any of the above? All help, however small, would be appreciated.

OK, Monday 27th September 2010 is "10 Euro Day".

I have several contacts in the media and I will spread the word there.
Will do put this idea on to my Facebook page too and will email all my contacts.

Let's see where this takes us!

nosheep

hinault wrote: »

OK, Monday 27th September 2010 is "10 Euro Day".

I have several contacts in the media and I will spread the word there.
Will do put this idea on to my Facebook page too and will email all my contacts.

Let's see where this takes us!

That's great! I'll work on the infrastructure stuff this morning.

We'll need some way of recording how many people make the protest of the 10 euro withdrawl. I'm thinking of something like a mobile text poll, where they just text a number when they've done their thing. It has to be easy, simple, and probably free for them to use. We'll also want to be able to see the results, i.e. the number of people making the protest, as it happens. The main thing is we can show how much support we got.

We may want to do a trial run with a limited group of people the week before, so that we can iron out any problems.

I've not done this before, so anyone else's wisdom would be appreciated at this stage...

nosheep

From a comment by 'The Nit' on the blog referred to in #1 above:

"It by seems to me that it will be the property tax that will provide the best chance to make a stance on fiscal issues. I can't imagine people being happy about being taxed on their main asset, especially if it is underwater by 10% or more.
PAYE is an automatic deduction for those on salaries, so its not as if one could effectively organize the non-payment of income tax, but this problem does not apply to property tax since it will be up to us to get assessed and file the necessary payments. This tax, if introduced in the manner in which I assume it will be, provides the best chance for fiscal resistance."

I am delighted that more and more people are contemplating some form of activism. How

However, I have a few points to make about a property tax protest:

1. Property Tax will probably not become law until mid-December at the earliest, and payment not due for quite a while after that. This will be way too late in my opinion to influence anything.
2. While I have no problems with individuals taking responsibility and deciding to withhold payment and essentially break the law, I cannot put my name to advocating others to do it.
3. By breaking the law, we weaken our argument and give the Government the upper hand. Many people will think twice about going up against the Collector General, who always wins.
4. I prefer to tackle the problem as close as possible to the source, i.e . the banking bail-out. We're supporting the banks and their bail-out by leaving our cash deposits with them. Let's let them know we don't have to do this.

MrDarcy

nosheep wrote: »

That's great! I'll work on the infrastructure stuff this morning.

We'll need some way of recording how many people make the protest of the 10 euro withdrawl. I'm thinking of something like a mobile text poll, where they just text a number when they've done their thing. It has to be easy, simple, and probably free for them to use. We'll also want to be able to see the results, i.e. the number of people making the protest, as it happens. The main thing is we can show how much support we got.

We may want to do a trial run with a limited group of people the week before, so that we can iron out any problems.

I've not done this before, so anyone else's wisdom would be appreciated at this stage...

I admire your hands on approach but I imagine the point is lost on hundreds of thousands of people on state benefit who in all probability have sweet f*ck all in the bank to withdraw...

Laminations

MrDarcy wrote: »

I admire your hands on approach but I imagine the point is lost on hundreds of thousands of people on state benefit who in all probability have sweet f*ck all in the bank to withdraw...

They are not losing or spending any money here, they would just be moving 10 euros, I think this is the best idea I've seen so far for a protest against the banking bailout strategy of this government.

I'm in

nosheep

Lamination, Thanks for the clarification, and the support. Maybe we need something like a 'pledge', where we can take some contact details and remind people closer to the date that we need their help.

OK, just an update on progress.

I've set up a blog (http://10euroday.blogspot.com)
We've also got an email (10euroday@gmail.com )
and twitter account (http://twitter.com/10euroday)

I'm trying to set up a facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/10euroDay) but having difficulty getting visible on the web.
Hinault, maybe you can help here?

The IE domsain www.10euroday.ie requires a signed document about the 10 Euro Day "organisation", so this might take a while. We might have to look at www.10euroday.org.

Brussels Sprout

Probably too late at this stage but would it be better to make it an irregular amount such as 10 euro and 10 cent. That way it won't be mixed up with regular punters who are withdrawing a tenner on that day anyway.

RichardAnd

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Probably too late at this stage but would it be better to make it an irregular amount such as 10 euro and 10 cent. That way it won't be mixed up with regular punters who are withdrawing a tenner on that day anyway.

That is a good idea but as you can't draw irregular amounts from ATM machines, it would require people to actually go into the bank which is a hassle. Thus, less people would be inclined to take part.

MrDarcy

RichardAnd wrote: »

That is a good idea but as you can't draw irregular amounts from ATM machines, it would require people to actually go into the bank which is a hassle. Thus, less people would be inclined to take part.

What's the deal with a 10 Euro amount though??? If you have 1,000 Euro on deposit and you decide to take 10 Euro out or 10.10 Euro out, by leaving the other 9,990 Euro or 9989.90 Euro in there on deposit you are only making a statement on yourself and your acceptance of the bank and your view that you trust the bank to mind your money.

If alternatively you want to make a real statement that you don't trust the bank or the government which is bailing out the bank, then take all your f*cking money out and say it loud and clear. Do up a letter asking for your account to be closed, and post that up on a central website, explaining your actions and the cause of your actions. Taking 10 Euro out of your bank account while leaving any other amount in there is only making an idiot out of yourself in my opinion...

Colonel Sanders

MrDarcy wrote: »

What's the deal with a 10 Euro amount though??? If you have 1,000 Euro on deposit and you decide to take 10 Euro out or 10.10 Euro out, by leaving the other 9,990 Euro or 9989.90 Euro in there on deposit you are only making a statement on yourself and your acceptance of the bank and your view that you trust the bank to mind your money.

If alternatively you want to make a real statement that you don't trust the bank or the government which is bailing out the bank, then take all your f*cking money out and say it loud and clear. Do up a letter asking for your account to be closed, and post that up on a central website, explaining your actions and the cause of your actions. Taking 10 Euro out of your bank account while leaving any other amount in there is only making an idiot out of yourself in my opinion...

Maybe a little more strongly worded than I'd put it but somewhat agree

All my savings are with banks covered by deposit guarantees other than the Irish governments. I have a current account with PTSB but rarely have much in it

hinault

nosheep wrote: »

Lamination, Thanks for the clarification, and the support. Maybe we need something like a 'pledge', where we can take some contact details and remind people closer to the date that we need their help.

OK, just an update on progress.

I've set up a blog (http://10euroday.blogspot.com)
We've also got an email (10euroday@gmail.com )
and twitter account (http://twitter.com/10euroday)

I'm trying to set up a facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/10euroDay) but having difficulty getting visible on the web.
Hinault, maybe you can help here?

The IE domsain www.10euroday.ie requires a signed document about the 10 Euro Day "organisation", so this might take a while. We might have to look at www.10euroday.org.

No Sheep,

I'm not on Facebook but I know someone who is and I've asked them to set up 10Euroday page.

nosheep

MrDarcy wrote: »

What's the deal with a 10 Euro amount though??? If you have 1,000 Euro on deposit and you decide to take 10 Euro out or 10.10 Euro out, by leaving the other 9,990 Euro or 9989.90 Euro in there on deposit you are only making a statement on yourself and your acceptance of the bank and your view that you trust the bank to mind your money.

By taking the 10 Euro, what we're saying is that we're able and willing to take the 9,990 Euro or 9989.90 whenever we want, if the banking strategy does not change.

MrDarcy wrote: »

If alternatively you want to make a real statement that you don't trust the bank or the government which is bailing out the bank, then take all your f*cking money out and say it loud and clear. Do up a letter asking for your account to be closed, and post that up on a central website, explaining your actions and the cause of your actions. Taking 10 Euro out of your bank account while leaving any other amount in there is only making an idiot out of yourself in my opinion...

This action is open to everyone, and I get the feeling that many on this forum have limited their funds with the banks. That's good, we need to get an awful lot more people thinking about why they've left their hard-earned cash with one of the Guarantee-6 banks.

But as I answered in another thread, it would be at least irresponsible and possibly dangerous to advocate taking all the cash out of the banks in a coordinated and synchronised move. It could spark a "run" on one or more of the banks, or at least have a number of unknown consequences. This is why we're going for the symbolic but widespread withdrawal of the 10 Euro.

Pete_Cavan

nosheep wrote: »

Imagine if the Government and the banks thought that all deposit money could be withdrawn by a concerted action by the people! I'm not saying we do this, just that we make a symbolic withdrawl of even just Euro 10.

This would annoy the government but only because it would make Irish bonds less attractive to the international markets meaning they are harder to sell and we would raise less moeny. Investors will omly invest their money stable countries, would you lend your money to a reckless person? We havent rocked the boat too much so far, we havent seen large scale strikes like in Greece and Spain, and the international market seems pleased that we have taken the austeritys measures so well (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/ireland-one-piigs-club-member-seeking-eviction/article1519556/).

This is proven by the fact that today the sale of Irish bonds were oversubscribed despite the fact that our credit rating was cut just two days ealier (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-borrowing-costs-fall-in-euro600m-sale-of-bills-2312616.html). As a result we have sold 25 per cent of the bonds we need for this year, compared with 9 per cent for Spain. We are weathering the storm quite well, according to international banks such as Deutsche Bank who recently encouraged investors to sell securities in Spain and buy Irish ones instead (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0118/breaking31.html).

I am not defending the government, and your protest is imaginative and fair play for making such an effort, but withdrawing the money could cause the bond market to lose faith in us making in hard and more expensive for us to borrow money. So you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

zielarz

Organize a proper bank run and I will support it. In my opinon you will achieve nothing, it's better to organize a real run and make those banks bankrupt. At least the government will stop bailing them out with our money.

nosheep

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This would annoy the government but only because it would make Irish bonds less attractive to the international markets meaning they are harder to sell and we would raise less moeny. Investors will omly invest their money stable countries, would you lend your money to a reckless person? We havent rocked the boat too much so far, we havent seen large scale strikes like in Greece and Spain, and the international market seems pleased that we have taken the austeritys measures so well (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/ireland-one-piigs-club-member-seeking-eviction/article1519556/).

This is proven by the fact that today the sale of Irish bonds were oversubscribed despite the fact that our credit rating was cut just two days ealier (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-borrowing-costs-fall-in-euro600m-sale-of-bills-2312616.html). As a result we have sold 25 per cent of the bonds we need for this year, compared with 9 per cent for Spain. We are weathering the storm quite well, according to international banks such as Deutsche Bank who recently encouraged investors to sell securities in Spain and buy Irish ones instead (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0118/breaking31.html).

I am not defending the government, and your protest is imaginative and fair play for making such an effort, but withdrawing the money could cause the bond market to lose faith in us making in hard and more expensive for us to borrow money. So you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Pete, Thanks for the comments. MrDarcy reckons no impact (to put it mildly) and you suspect the bond markets could rocket. So we're probably pitching at the right level.

Seriously, the bond sale today was for short term debt, hard to read into the figures for that. The real test is in September, when there will be 30 billion Euro up for grabs. My own view is that what we're doing with Anglo and the rubbish we're getting from the others/NAMA is the cause of the uncertainty. They are worried the figures are far worse than the Governemt know, and that we are at risk to have a Soverign default. If Anglo was allowed fold/negotiate default, the markets would not like it but eventually stabilise. That's why we need to force a change.

hinault

Just taking up Sheeps point, September 2010 will see a lot of other sovereign debt being rolled over.

Several other European countries are due to to rollover sovereign debt, so I wonder what the appetite would be for Irish bonds compared to say French bonds being auctioned in September 2010?
That's when we will see how the markets really view this country's bonds.

I will reiterate it again : the purpose of this protest is to send a message to the govt and the bankers.
It's a peacable protest and as such the objective is to try to persuade the govt and bankers not to be spending billions on banks like Anglo.

The billions earmarked to be poured in to Anglo will never be repaid.

Pete_Cavan

hinault wrote: »

Just taking up Sheeps point, September 2010 will see a lot of other sovereign debt being rolled over.

Several other European countries are due to to rollover sovereign debt, so I wonder what the appetite would be for Irish bonds compared to say French bonds being auctioned in September 2010?
That's when we will see how the markets really view this country's bonds.

I will reiterate it again : the purpose of this protest is to send a message to the govt and the bankers.
It's a peacable protest and as such the objective is to try to persuade the govt and bankers not to be spending billions on banks like Anglo.

The billions earmarked to be poured in to Anglo will never be repaid.

I agree that September will be the real test but I still dont think having a go at the banks in protest at the government is the right way to go about it. Personally I think they were right to save Anglo, letting them fail would have disastrous consequences on our already decimated banking system. It would have pushed up the interest rates banks borrow at which would have made things worse for bank customers as the higher cost would have been passed onto us. I say I am in favour of saving Anglo based on the information we had at the time. Looking back with what we know now maybe they should have been let go but they didnt tell us the full extent of the bad debts so I think the right call was made at the time. We are in too deep to stop now. We are long past the point of no return. Also the international markets seem pleased that we are carrying the burden ourselves, for the time being at least. I agree Irish bonds wont be as attractive as French bonds but they will be a hell of a lot more attractive than Spanish or Italian bonds. Hopefully we will soon be dropped from the PIIGS, they can afford to lose an I and its looking more likely to be us than Italy.

Regardless of how I feel about Anglo, I fail to see how this will achieve anything positive.

Scarab80

Before you protest don't you think you should set out what course of action you advodate in relation to the banking system? Expressing your unhappiness with government policy is all very well but without advocating an alternative solution doesn't it just amount to rabble rabble rabble? No to more bailouts might be a nice slogan but it doesn't really translate into policy.

Are you advocating a default on the guarantee? If so what about Irish despoiters and investors not covered by the DGS? How will this affect our soverign debt situation? How would it be received by Europe?

If you are not advocating a default on the guarantee but non-extension, what level of creditors are available for loss sharing after 29/9/10 once the CIFS scheme lapses (that is what creditors are not covered by the ELG scheme but have debt maturities beyond 29/9?). Should any bank be saved if they face a liquidity shortage in the absense of a guarantee?

Do you advocate nationalisation of the banks? How much would this cost and which banks do you nationalise?

What about NAMA?

Incidentally absent government support ATMs would stop working well before depositers could take all of their money out of the banks. Also An Post is state guaranteed.

RealityCheck

hinault wrote: »

Just taking up Sheeps point, September 2010 will see a lot of other sovereign debt being rolled over.

Several other European countries are due to to rollover sovereign debt, so I wonder what the appetite would be for Irish bonds compared to say French bonds being auctioned in September 2010?
That's when we will see how the markets really view this country's bonds.

Is it not the rollover of bank debt as oppossed to sovereign debt that eveyone is worried about? I think in the region of 30bn is due for the banks to rolloever. If they have to depend on the ECB then things are'nt good.

Denerick

Instead of protesting you could write a convincing essay advising the government how to rectify the economic situation. We could all get together and agree to make prudent economic choices from now on, learning from our past mistakes. We could challenge the entire political system on what they really believe - not populist soundbytes.

Scrap that. Thats hard work. Lets go out, protest, feel good about ourselves, and then head back to the pub to have a good old whinge with all the other <insert insulting word here>.

hinault

Scarab80 wrote: »

Before you protest don't you think you should set out what course of action you advodate in relation to the banking system? Expressing your unhappiness with government policy is all very well but without advocating an alternative solution doesn't it just amount to rabble rabble rabble? No to more bailouts might be a nice slogan but it doesn't really translate into policy.

Are you advocating a default on the guarantee? If so what about Irish despoiters and investors not covered by the DGS? How will this affect our soverign debt situation? How would it be received by Europe?

If you are not advocating a default on the guarantee but non-extension, what level of creditors are available for loss sharing after 29/9/10 once the CIFS scheme lapses (that is what creditors are not covered by the ELG scheme but have debt maturities beyond 29/9?). Should any bank be saved if they face a liquidity shortage in the absense of a guarantee?

Do you advocate nationalisation of the banks? How much would this cost and which banks do you nationalise?

What about NAMA?

Incidentally absent government support ATMs would stop working well before depositers could take all of their money out of the banks. Also An Post is state guaranteed.

For the record you and I have exchanged views on the topic of the bank bailout and Anglo in particular.
We agreed to disagree - after you made some
scurrilous comments.

I don't expect you to support any demonstration against current goverment policy

Denerick

hinault wrote: »

For the record you and I have exchanged views on the topic of the bank bailout and Anglo in particular.
We agreed to disagree - after you made some
scurrilous comments.

I don't expect you to support any demonstration against current goverment.

He's asking you whether it is better to reason and co-operate within the body politic in order to facilitate a solution or if its better to have endless protest cycles, led by populists with no understanding of the nuanced and difficult issues we are facing.

In short, anger is not a governing strategy.

hinault

Denerick wrote: »

He's asking you whether it is better to reason and co-operate within the body politic in order to facilitate a solution or if its better to have endless protest cycles, led by populists with no understanding of the nuanced and difficult issues we are facing.

In short, anger is not a governing strategy.

"No understanding of the nuanced and difficult issues that we're facing".:D:D

Denerick

hinault wrote: »

"No understanding of the nuanced and difficult issues that we're facing".:D:D

Have you anything worthwhile to say?

Do you know what cognitive dissonance means?

hinault

Denerick wrote: »

Have you anything worthwhile to say?

Do you know what cognitive dissonance means?

Not when posters come out with patronising bull**** such as

"No understanding of the nuanced and difficult issues that we're facing".

nosheep

Scarab80 wrote: »

Before you protest don't you think you should set out what course of action you advodate in relation to the banking system? Expressing your unhappiness with government policy is all very well but without advocating an alternative solution doesn't it just amount to rabble rabble rabble? No to more bailouts might be a nice slogan but it doesn't really translate into policy.

The short answer is I don't know what the best strategy is. I DO know that the current one has failed. With fifth class arithmetic, anyone can see that the rising costs of the bail-outs are rendering the nation's balance sheet impossible.

What I want to say is STOP, and THINK it out again. There are a lot of smarter people than I who the Government can call on to decide on the alternative.

But first we have to say to them STOP!

Scarab80

hinault wrote: »

For the record you and I have exchanged views on the topic of the bank bailout and Anglo in particular.
We agreed to disagree - after you made some
scurrilous comments.

I don't expect you to support any demonstration against current goverment policy

I am in favour of whatever policy minimises the cost to the taxpayer in the long run, the frustrating thing about this country is that the technicalities of how this can be achieved are never examined or discussed in any detail.

I assume you guys have some interest and knowledge in economics and finance so I would expect that if you are motivated to launch a protest you would at least know what it is you are disagreeing with and what you want to happen.

Otherwise it's just another Eirigi/SWP protest under another banner.

hinault

Scarab80 wrote: »

I am in favour of whatever policy minimises the cost to the taxpayer in the long run, the frustrating thing about this country is that the technicalities of how this can be achieved are never examined or discussed in any detail.

I assume you guys have some interest and knowledge in economics and finance so I would expect that if you are motivated to launch a protest you would at least know what it is you are disagreeing with and what you want to happen.

Otherwise it's just another Eirigi/SWP protest under another banner.

As I said we exchanged views about the viability of the strategy adopted by the goverment to the bailout previously.

You and I disagreed on the approach taken by the govt.

I really would prefer that this thread not be threadjacked.
Thanks.

amacca

hinault wrote: »

As I said we exchanged views about the viability of the strategy adopted by the goverment to the bailout previously.

You and I disagreed on the approach taken by the govt.

I really would prefer that this thread not be threadjacked.
Thanks.

I'm not hijacking the thread (not that you've accused me of it) but I would have reservations about this plan for partly selfish reasons (I have small amount of savings in these institutions but they are important to me) and for the reason that another poster mentioned I'm not sure how it might achieve your objective (preventing more cash going into Anglo?) but if it does it could be at the risk of many peoples hard earned savings. If you managed to co-ordinate enough people to withdraw even the symbolic amount of €10 this could destabilise institutions where many of your fellow citizens still have savings ....given the negative media attention it would draw .. run on banks etc.

last thing we need is irish citizens attacking their own banks imo but perhaps I'm to fearful.


We have embarked (been forced) down this foolish path when in my opinion at least it seems clear that that Anglo and INBS should have been quarantined with just a deposit guarantee.

the thing system to be teetering on the brink to some extent --- the bailout stinks -- but there are some silver linings for at least some citizens -- we dont have a daily withdrawal limit on atms and people still have or have access to their savings and many families still do have some savings.

there must be a better way (admittedly I cant think of one right now)....to me this is a plan that could hurt the undeserving more then those that deserve to feel the pain....for that matter how reversible is it really given that ecb complicit to some extent in our strategy ... the damage seems to be more or less done...this should have been stopped long ago

maybe its a spineless view but I think I have a point.

hinault

amacca wrote: »

I'm not hijacking the thread but I would have reservations about this plan for partly selfish reasons (I have small amount of savings in these institutions but they are important to me) and for the reason that another poster mentioned I'm not sure how it might achieve your objective (preventing more cash going into Anglo?) but if it does it could be at the risk of many peoples hard earned savings. If you managed to co-ordinate enough people to withdraw even the symbolic amount of €10 this could destabilise institutions where many of your fellow citizens still have savings ....given the negative media attention it would draw .. run on banks etc.

last thing we need is irish citizens attacking their own banks imo but perhaps I'm to fearful.

We have embarked (been forced) down this foolish path when in my opinion at least it seems clear that that Anglo and INBS should have been quarantined with just a deposit guarantee.

the thing system to be teetering on the brink to some extent --- the bailout stinks -- but there are some silver linings for at least some citizens -- we dont have a daily withdrawal limit on atms and people still have or have access to their savings and many families still do have some savings.

there must be a better way (admittedly I cant think of one right now)....to me this is a plan that could hurt the undeserving more then those that deserve to feel the pain....for that matter how reversible is it really given that ecb complicit to some extent in our strategy ... the damage seems to be more or less done...this should have been stopped long ago

maybe its a spineless view but I think I have a point.

You say that the last thing we need is Irish citizens attacking our own banks.
I can see the point that you're making.

But what about the banks attacking the Irish citizens?

Think about the banks attacking the citizens of this country.
For example, what about the "offshore bank scandal" in the 1980/90's ?
These same banks in an attemot to defraud this State of tax, deliberately created offshore bank account for Irish citizens to hide assets and to deprive the exchequer of income.
Bank overcharges scandal : remember when they deliberately overcharged Irish citizens?
Or what about the lies the bank told to Brian Lenihan about the state of their loanbook?
The banks claimed that impairments were relatively small? Who's having to recapitalise the difference between the loanbook value and the realisable value?
How many times have the banks increased their bank charges and their variable interest rates since Sept 2008?

The Irish banks have lied, and lied repeatedly, to the majority of the citizens of this country since at least 1980's.

I will reiterate it again : by withdrawing a symbolic amount from our banks, we will be at least sending a message that we oppose the
strategy adopted by the politicians and bankers.
By withdrawing a relatively small amount in a coordinated way, we're not imperilling the entire Irish banking structure but we are making a stand.
If we were really out to destroy our banks, we would advocate wholesale withdrawal of all savings.
We're not out to destroy our banks.

amacca

hinault wrote: »

You say that the last thing we need is Irish citizens attacking our own banks.
I can see the point that you're making.

But what about the banks attacking the Irish citizens?

Think about the banks attacking the citizens of this country.
For example, what about the "offshore bank scandal" in the 1980/90's ?
These same banks in an attemot to defraud this State of tax, deliberately created offshore bank account for Irish citizens to hide assets and to deprive the exchequer of income.
Bank overcharges scandal : remember when they deliberately overcharged Irish citizens?
Or what about the lies the bank told to Brian Lenihan about the state of their loanbook?
The banks claimed that impairments were relatively small? Who's having to recapitalise the difference between the loanbook value and the realisable value?
How many times have the banks increased their bank charges and their variable interest rates since Sept 2008?

The Irish banks have lied, and lied repeatedly, to the majority of the citizens of this country since at least 1980's.

And I understand the point you're making (I think) these f##kers need to be called to heel, put on a short leash and reminded what they are required to do in this economy

but

its a symbiotic relationship.......they ultimately will need us and a very significant proportion of the citizens of this country at least very much need them...not just to supply credit but to keep savings safe and accessible

(...I say ultimately because they were dysfunctional and if they weren't receiving support they would have paid the ultimate price for their mistakes long before now)

therefore I think now is not the time to do anything that could destabilise these banks...there is just...imo anyway...too much at stake....

Its just a pity that if we do manage to dig ourselves out of this hole I believe the banks will continue to do this....

so perhaps protests should take the form of never again...we want assurances that banks will be controlled properly in the future, no bonuses for short term performance ever be let creep in again etc etc

I would be fearful that if your plan is successful, even withdrawing a small amount could have the same result as if everyone withdrew all their savings...................................................to me its a sensationalist headline writers wet dream.....................................eg: Der Spiegel: Pixie irish withdraw funds from their own banks en masse....Figaro:Les Irlandaise...elle sont stupide...cest incroyable......ils se tirent dans le pied en sabotant leurs propres banques ... ils font les grecs ressembler à einstein...etc etc

I think the right and just intention of your protest could be completely lost in the misreporting and fallout of its more serious unintended consequences

Denerick

hinault wrote: »

Not when posters come out with patronising bull**** such as

"No understanding of the nuanced and difficult issues that we're facing".

Its patronising because its true. Protestors suffer from a hive mentality and don't care about governance or finding solutions. Organised political anger may be a necessary prop for any Democratic Republic, but it does not find solutions, and that above all else is what I care about.

hinault

Denerick wrote: »

Its patronising because its true.

It is patronising and it is bull****.

Denerick wrote: »

Organised political anger may be a necessary prop for any Democratic Republic, but it does not find solutions, and that above all else is what I care about.

And sitting there and sagely nodding ones head in agreement as we're delivered to hell in a handcart, works?

I think we should agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Denerick

What do you hope to achieve by protesting? To make the governing policy unworkable? To be replaced with what, exactly. outline your suggested policy changes.

We're on a precipice as it is, protesting serves absolutely no purpose other than send a message to the government (That they already know)

You can dismiss something by calling it bull****, but reality works in mysterious ways. You can never escape it.

Brussels Sprout

Denerick wrote: »

Instead of protesting you could write a convincing essay advising the government how to rectify the economic situation.

I assume your tongue was firmly in your cheek when writing this.

The_Thing

It's too little, too late.

Unless there's public hangings of those responsible you're wasting your time.