This is why I think God exists.

use logic please · 24-08-2010 05:55PM #1

We humans are absolutely constrained by time and space as far as I know, we cannot think outside of these parameters as far as I know, so assuming that space and time are always constraints on everything, we reach a problem. The problem is this:

Where did everything in existence come from? It must have come from something.

Say it came from X1, then where did X1 come from? It must have come from something.

Say X1 came from X2, then where did X2 come from? It must have come from something.

Say X2 came from X3, then where did X3 come from? It must have come from something.

If we consider the sequence X1, X2, X3,... There must have been something, let's call it Xn, which created itself, if there wasn't such an Xn, then nothing would ever have managed to exist, because the sequence leading to the existence of what exists now would never have started. But we know that things exist, so there must have been some Xn which created itself, but now we have the problem that the notion of self-creation does not make sense for anything which is constrained by space and time like humans are constrained by space and time.

Now, in light of the fact that we have the above problem, the fact that things do exist can be explained only the creative action of some thing which is not constrained, as people are, by time and space. This thing which transcends time and space is God.

Atheists often ask questions of religious people which would require religious people to fully understand God, it is totally unreasonable to expect any human being, absolutely constrained by time and space, to fully understand this God which transcends time and space. That's been said before, but it makes sense.

I'm sure others have made similar arguments to this but this is how I explain my opinion.

MagicMarker · 24-08-2010 06:02PM

If you think Xn created itself, why can't X1 have created itself?

KidKeith89 · 24-08-2010 06:02PM

use logic please wrote: »

We humans are absolutely constrained by time and space as far as I know, we cannot think outside of these parameters as far as I know, so assuming that space and time are always constraints on everything, we reach a problem. The problem is this:

Where did everything in existence come from? It must have come from something.

Say it came from X1, then where did X1 come from? It must have come from something.

Say X1 came from X2, then where did X2 come from? It must have come from something.

Say X2 came from X3, then where did X3 come from? It must have come from something.

If we consider the sequence X1, X2, X3,... There must have been something, let's call it Xn, which created itself, if there wasn't such an Xn, then nothing would ever have managed to exist, because the sequence leading to the existence of what exists now would never have started. But we know that things exist, so there must have been some Xn which created itself, but now we have the problem that the notion of self-creation does not make sense for anything which is constrained by space and time like humans are constrained by space and time.

Now, in light of the fact that we have the above problem, the fact that things do exist can be explained only the creative action of some thing which is not constrained, as people are, by time and space. This thing which transcends time and space is God.

Atheists often ask questions of religious people which would require religious people to fully understand God, it is totally unreasonable to expect any human being, absolutely constrained by time and space, to fully understand this God which transcends time and space. That's been said before, but it makes sense.

I'm sure others have made similar arguments to this but this is how I explain my opinion.

Why does "existence" have to have been created or have a beginning point? You say that humans are constrained by time and space, which is true. But the extent of our logical mind also has constraints. The concept of "no beginning" is impossible to fathom because we look for patterns and logical sequences or whatever you wanna call it.

IamtheWalrus · 24-08-2010 06:03PM

"This thing which transcends time and space is God." - it's certainly possible and highly improbable.

use logic please · 24-08-2010 06:05PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

If you think Xn created itself, why can't X1 have created itself?

I think that the notion of "self creation" does not make sense in a setting constrained by the parameters of time and space.

use logic please · 24-08-2010 06:06PM

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

"This thing which transcends time and space is God." - it's certainly possible and highly improbable.

Why is it so improbable? You haven't constructed argument.

KidKeith89 · 24-08-2010 06:07PM

use logic please wrote: »

I think that the notion of "self creation" does not make sense in a setting constrained by the parameters of time and space.

How did "god" come into existence? What created him/her/it?

dlofnep · 24-08-2010 06:08PM

Who created God?

Ickle Magoo · 24-08-2010 06:08PM

You are forgetting the other option - we don't know what happened or what conditions existed prior to the big bang. I don't feel the need to insert whatever religion or deity into the equation, I'm happy with "I don't know and will assume natural causes unless it can be shown to involve the supernatural".

I'm also willing to say that there may well be your god transcending space and time but until such a point that he shows himself or you are able to show him to me, I have no reason to suppose he exists. I have no issue that religious people don't fully understand their god, given the lack of supporting evidence, the multitude of beliefs and the general fuzzy invisibility of it all, that's hardly surprising. Really, it's the fact they have as much supporting evidence as I have for unicorns is where it all goes awry.

simplistic2 · 24-08-2010 06:08PM

use logic please wrote: »

We humans are absolutely constrained by time and space as far as I know, we cannot think outside of these parameters as far as I know, so assuming that space and time are always constraints on everything, we reach a problem. The problem is this:

Where did everything in existence come from? It must have come from something.

Say it came from X1, then where did X1 come from? It must have come from something.

Say X1 came from X2, then where did X2 come from? It must have come from something.

Say X2 came from X3, then where did X3 come from? It must have come from something.

If we consider the sequence X1, X2, X3,... There must have been something, let's call it Xn, which created itself, if there wasn't such an Xn, then nothing would ever have managed to exist, because the sequence leading to the existence of what exists now would never have started. But we know that things exist, so there must have been some Xn which created itself, but now we have the problem that the notion of self-creation does not make sense for anything which is constrained by space and time like humans are constrained by space and time.

Now, in light of the fact that we have the above problem, the fact that things do exist can be explained only the creative action of some thing which is not constrained, as people are, by time and space. This thing which transcends time and space is God.

Atheists often ask questions of religious people which would require religious people to fully understand God, it is totally unreasonable to expect any human being, absolutely constrained by time and space, to fully understand this God which transcends time and space. That's been said before, but it makes sense.

I'm sure others have made similar arguments to this but this is how I explain my opinion.

It is illogical to assume that something came from nothing.

However it could make sense to assume there always was everything or the possibility of everything which is enough to eliminate the possibility of a single creator.

Max Power1 · 24-08-2010 06:10PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

If you think Xn created itself, why can't X1 have created itself?

Expanding on this point a bit.

Christians dismiss the big bang theory with "who started the big bang".

Who created god?
EDIT: As Dlofnep said!

Owen · 24-08-2010 06:10PM

Just because you don't understand everything about the Universe, doesn't mean you get to say 'God did it' to fill in the gaps*. It's that type of thinking that conjured up Banshees, Fairy Forts, Leprechauns and Astrology.

*Yes, I'm paraphrasing a comedian.

MagicMarker · 24-08-2010 06:10PM

use logic please wrote: »

I think that the notion of "self creation" does not make sense in a setting constrained by the parameters of time and space.

Time and space as we know it only began to exist at the moment of the big bang, we don't know what came prior to this.

smcgiff · 24-08-2010 06:11PM

KidKeith89 wrote: »

How did "god" come into existence? What created him/her/it?

God is beyond such trivialities as mere paradox *Hrmmmmpf*

krudler · 24-08-2010 06:12PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Who created God?

We did.

maximoose · 24-08-2010 06:12PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Really, it's the fact they have as much supporting evidence as I have for unicorns is where it all goes awry.

hear hear

simple blind faith/"prove he doesnt exist" is never going to win over the non believers

use logic please · 24-08-2010 06:14PM

KidKeith89 wrote: »

Why does "existence" have to have been created or have a beginning point? You say that humans are constrained by time and space, which is true. But the extent of our logical mind also has constraints. The concept of "no beginning" is impossible to fathom because we look for patterns and logical sequences or whatever you wanna call it.

You are right, our logical minds are constrained, but we have to work with the logic we have in order to gain understanding. Using my logic as well as I could, I came to my conclusion. Of course, the human mind can always be wrong on matters beyond its comprehension.

MagicMarker · 24-08-2010 06:17PM

use logic please wrote: »

You are right, our logical minds are constrained, but we have to work with the logic we have in order to gain understanding. Using my logic as well as I could, I came to my conclusion. Of course, the human mind can always be wrong on matters beyond its comprehension.

Logic is reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity, doesn't sound like you're using logic to me.

''Where knowledge ends, religion begins''

bnt · 24-08-2010 06:17PM

Thomas Aquinas used this argument - or one very much like it - as one of his "Five Ways". On Wikipedia it's called the First Cause argument:

"But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God."

The short answer to that: even if you assume some first cause, there's no reason to assume that it would have any of the qualities you associate with "God". Isaac Asimov had some fun with this concept in his short story The Last Question.

IamtheWalrus · 24-08-2010 06:19PM

use logic please wrote: »

Why is it so improbable? You haven't constructed argument.

You say there had to be a creator, which may be true. You say that that creator is God. I'm saying it is more likely to have been something natural. If we lived in a world where there was no such thing as religion, you wouldn't automatically look at the world and think 'Some all powerful being must have created this'.

liamw · 24-08-2010 06:19PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Who created God?

Well he did say that Xn created itself and that Xn was God.

The problem is, use_logic_please, is that you are saying everything has to have a cause, but then you are not applying that same logic at Xn. Why not? You're breaking your initial premise.

Your argument is well refuted here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_schick/bigbang.html

use logic please · 24-08-2010 06:20PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Who created God?

If someone created God, then they'd be God. I think God exists unconstrained by space and time, hence he wouldn't need a creator or anything to be "before him" since "before" is a concept which does not make sense in a setting where time is not a constraint. Maybe God "created itself," I don't know, I can't explain any situation which is unconstrained by space and time.

krudler · 24-08-2010 06:21PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Just because you don't understand everything about the Universe, doesn't mean you get to say 'God did it' to fill in the gaps*. It's that type of thinking that conjured up Banshees, Fairy Forts, Leprechauns and Astrology.

*Yes, I'm paraphrasing a comedian.

Oh come on now everyone knows leprechauns are extinct.

robindch · 24-08-2010 06:21PM

Almost a post a minute. Well done folks!

dlofnep · 24-08-2010 06:21PM

use logic please wrote: »

If someone created God, then they'd be God. I think God exists unconstrained by space and time, hence he wouldn't need a creator or anything to be "before him" since "before" is a concept which does not make sense in a setting where time is not a constraint. Maybe God "created itself," I don't know, I can't explain any situation which is unconstrained by space and time.

If something can create itself, why is there a need for a God?

use logic please · 24-08-2010 06:22PM

liamw wrote: »

Well he did say that Xn created itself and that Xn was God.

The problem is that you are saying everything has to have a cause, but then you are not applying that same logic at Xn. Why not? You're breaking your initial premise.

Your argument is well refuted here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_schick/bigbang.html

I'm saying that God can break what we can't break, he can exist unconstrained by space and time. I'll check that link.

liamw · 24-08-2010 06:24PM

use logic please wrote: »

I'm saying that God can break what we can't break, he can exist unconstrained by space and time. I'll check that link.

I think you're making a mistake by applying the limitations of human understanding (in terms of space and time) to the reality of the universe.

6. Everything that had a beginning in time has a cause.
7. The universe had a beginning in time.

Premise 6 conflicts with quantum mechanics because, as we have seen, quantum electrodynamics claims that subatomic particles can come into existence through a vacuum fluctuation. These particles have a beginning in time, but they have no cause because vacuum fluctuations are purely random events. Such particles, then, serve as a counterexample to premise 6.

Premise 7 conflicts with relativity theory because the general theory of relativity claims that there was no time before there was a universe. Time and the universe are coterminous-they came into existence together. This finding of Einstein's was anticipated by Augustine who proclaimed, "The world and time had both one beginning. The world was made, not in time, but simultaneously with time."[9] If there was no time before there was a universe, the universe can't have a beginning in time.

Max Power1 · 24-08-2010 06:24PM

use logic please wrote: »

I'm saying that God can break what we can't break, he can exist unconstrained by space and time. I'll check that link.

I would implore you to "use logic please"

and reconsider that statement.

The lwas of space/time/physics etc cannot be superseded by the supernatural.

use logic please · 24-08-2010 06:25PM

dlofnep wrote: »

If something can create itself, why is there a need for a God?

I didn't say anything created itself. I said that God may have "created itself", I don't know.

Ickle Magoo · 24-08-2010 06:25PM

use logic please wrote: »

If someone created God, then they'd be God. I think God exists unconstrained by space and time, hence he wouldn't need a creator or anything to be "before him" since "before" is a concept which does not make sense in a setting where time is not a constraint. Maybe God "created itself," I don't know, I can't explain any situation which is unconstrained by space and time.

You can't explain any situation which is unconstrained by space and time but you are confident enough in your theistic assertions of a god that transcends space and time to put it to a forum of religious sceptics? I suggest you are not paying much heed to your own title.

dlofnep · 24-08-2010 06:25PM

use logic please wrote: »

I didn't say anything created itself. I said that God may have "created itself", I don't know.

So if God may have created itself, why can't the Universe create itself?

This is why I think God exists.

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