Finally a judge with the right idea...

Biggins · 20-08-2010 12:08AM

who what when wrote: »

A free Larry Murphy, scumbags, drug addicts, petty criminals, gang wars are all a result of what happens when a justice system leads by example.

Straight question - are you saying then they are the majority or minority example of prisoners?
And if so? Have they been called to answer to a better higher legal form of legal justice, one that is based on better moral principles - not lowering of them?

We should be raising the bar/scales of justice - not lowering it to their level.

Sir Gallagher · 20-08-2010 12:08AM

who what when wrote: »

A free Larry Murphy, scumbags, drug addicts, petty criminals, gang wars are all a result of what happens when a justice system leads by example.

No, we have a bad justice system, doesn't mean the Saudi Arabia one is the correct way to go. Typical reactionary sh1te.

20-08-2010 12:13AM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Absolutely stupid.

Why though?

Dudess · 20-08-2010 12:16AM

It's not that I think it's unfair, just that I wouldn't like a state to have the power to allow it.

20-08-2010 12:19AM

In thirty years time, that guy is still going to be paralyzed.. The attacker will have long forgotten. There's no justice in this case without either a massive prison sentence or a broken back.

sligopark · 20-08-2010 12:22AM

Biggins wrote: »

We are better than that - or we should at least try to be. Lead by example, not by possible further mistakes

I used to feel the same way - some sort of human rights liberalism - but now having been at the sharp end of a few thing sI think not now of example but preventative justice

MrStuffins wrote: »

This is not biblical times, it's the 2010! And it's not justice!

rightly stated - its time for 2010 preventative justice

ejmaztec wrote: »

Nothing is, especially here and in the UK. All the judges went to wanker justice academy.

perhaps not as such but more that they are too removed from todays society having grown up 40 years ago and lived their lives within a bubble of removal from society below their living

cruiser178 wrote: »

I dont think there is a doctor on the planet that would initially go into an operating room to harm another human being.

Would it be possible for the Irish goverement to train me solely for this job? What would they require in the way of leaving cert points?

I think many of us are forgetting the rate of certain types of crime up Norht when the country provos (rather than the city provos involved in crime) kneecapped those robbing, raping and engaging in social type crime?

20-08-2010 12:24AM

Biggins wrote: »

We should be raising the bar/scales of justice - not lowering it to their level.

Good point, problem is how to do that whilst still having a real deterrant for certain* crimes.

*violence resulting from turf wars in the drugs trade for example, where there is a real determination to do serious harm as opposed to an after hours punchup that (unintentially) results in serious injury.

Sir Gallagher · 20-08-2010 12:24AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why though?

The OP was working on the assumption that a victim of a violent crime automatically would want to commit a violent act as revenge, most people aren't violent animals.

So as i said, stupid.

who what when · 20-08-2010 12:28AM

Biggins wrote: »

Straight question - are you saying then they are the majority or minority example of prisoners?
And if so? Have they been called to answer to a better higher legal form of legal justice, one that is based on better moral principles - not lowering of them?

We should be raising the bar/scales of justice - not lowering it to their level.

Well to answer your first question i dont know what type of prisoner forms the majority but if i had to guess i'd say it would be you're average, run of the mill scumbag.

And yes they may well have been called to answer by a justice system based on higher moral principles but these people dont give a fiddlers about morality. They have no fear or respect for the law.
In Saudi Arabia the justice system is a real deterent.
In Ireland the justice system is merely a minor setback every so often, and worse still its sometimes seen as a badge of honour

20-08-2010 12:28AM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

The OP was working on the assumption that a victim of a violent crime automatically would want to commit a violent act as revenge, most people aren't violent animals.

So as i said, stupid.

And in the cases of paralysis, serious deformity etc. what would you think of there being a choice just for us violent animals?
I mean if you were glassed in the face, would you rather the attacked get five years or get deformed himself?

Biggins · 20-08-2010 12:32AM

who what when wrote: »

...In Ireland the justice system is merely a minor setback every so often, and worse still its sometimes seen as a badge of honour

While I can agree that there are serious errors and practices that need to be addressed in the Irish court system, I also take consolation in that as bad as ours is, we have the presence of mind not to reduce it further to the mentality of a scumbag action with an emotional reactionary excuse/reason for causing such equally backward stepping actions.

To rephrase what I said earlier, we need to up our justice practises, not lower them in tone and/or morality.
For if we lose the proper morality in justice - where is the better justice at all being carried out?

who what when · 20-08-2010 12:35AM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

No, we have a bad justice system, doesn't mean the Saudi Arabia one is the correct way to go. Typical reactionary sh1te.

I really take exception to this comment for two reasons

1 I wasnt suggesting Saudi Arabias justice system is the way to go. I was making the point that their justice is more successful than ours at its primary function - preventing crime.

2 How do you make out its reactionary? Critical yes, reactionary no!

sligopark · 20-08-2010 12:36AM

Biggins wrote: »

While I can agree that there are serious errors and practices that need to be addressed in the Irish court system, I also take consolation in that as bad as ours is, we have the presence of mind not to reduce it further to the mentality of a scumbag action with an emotional reactionary excuse/reason for causing such equally backward stepping actions.

sorry but too often nasty a$$ barsteards need longer than a few months - physical retribution is absent from our justice system

Sir Gallagher · 20-08-2010 12:36AM

Deleted User wrote: »

And in the cases of paralysis, serious deformity etc. what would you think of there being a choice just for us violent animals?
I mean if you were glassed in the face, would you rather the attacked get five years or get deformed himself?

I would expect a harsh prison sentence and compensation from the attacker. Seeing my attacker being deformed wouldn't really appeal to me, i'm not a violent person and it wouldn't stop me from being deformed.

sligopark · 20-08-2010 12:38AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I mean if you were glassed in the face, would you rather the attacked get five years or get deformed himself?

deformed himself? The perp already did that non physically - if it were me I would prefer he were beaten to a pulp by a gang of his peers and then was glassed

who what when · 20-08-2010 12:39AM

Biggins wrote: »

While I can agree that there are serious errors and practices that need to be addressed in the Irish court system, I also take consolation in that as bad as ours is, we have the presence of mind not to reduce it further to the mentality of a scumbag action with an emotional reactionary excuse/reason for causing such equally backward stepping actions.

To rephrase what I said earlier, we need to up our justice practises, not lower them in tone and/or morality.
For if we lose the morality in justice - where is the better justice at all being carried out?

But can you at least agree that their system works insofar as it prevents/deters crime while ours does not.
And in that sense alone its a superior justice system.

Biggins · 20-08-2010 12:39AM

sligopark wrote: »

sorry but too often nasty a$$ barsteards need longer than a few months - physical retribution is absent from our justice system

First part true - latter part: pain does not mean gain in regards justice being melted out and acting as a deterrent for one to "go forth and not sin again".

who what when wrote: »

But can you at least agree that their system works insofar as it prevents/deters crime while ours does not.
And in that sense alone its a superior justice system.

Well lets be honest, if they are wishing to apply the type of punishment that the OP mentions, cleary their chosen punishments are not perfect nor a deterrent - as the crimes are still occurring there - are they not?

As for "superior" - thats a point of view - not a proven statistic fact.
At least our scales of justice - while not perfect - reach for a higher form of moral justice to be applied.
I'd rather see justice be reaching up for answers, than reaching down to the scumbag level.

20-08-2010 12:40AM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

I would expect a harsh prison sentence and compensation from the attacker. Seeing my attacker being deformed wouldn't really appeal to me, i'm not a violent person and it wouldn't stop me from being deformed.

I've never been in a fight in my life.. And that's why I'd want such harsh justice.
Thirty years later when I'm still paralyzed and have the lost the only chance at life I'll ever have, I would be more than happy knowing that the cause of my life being ruined is in the same position. I couldn't bare to think that they were enjoying life after taking mine.

Sir Gallagher · 20-08-2010 12:41AM

who what when wrote: »

I really take exception to this comment for two reasons

1 I wasnt suggesting Saudi Arabias justice system is the way to go. I was making the point that their justice is more successful than ours at its primary function - preventing crime.

2 How do you make out its reactionary? Critical yes, reactionary no!

Do you think it's a better justice system? Would you want it in place over here? That's what you're implying.

sligopark · 20-08-2010 12:43AM

who what when wrote: »

But can you at least agree that their system works insofar as it prevents/deters crime while ours does not.
And in that sense alone its a superior justice system.

agreed

has anyone read thro Brehon Law?

http://www.woodlandleague.org/info/info/brehonlaw.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law

Sir Gallagher · 20-08-2010 12:45AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I've never been in a fight in my life.. And that's why I'd want such harsh justice.
Thirty years later when I'm still paralyzed and have the lost the only chance at life I'll ever have, I would be more than happy knowing that the cause of my life being ruined is in the same position. I couldn't bare to think that they were enjoying life after taking mine.

How could you possibly know that?

All i'm saying is i find it quite funny when people start saying we should start taking tips from the Saudi Arabian justice system.

who what when · 20-08-2010 12:46AM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Do you think it's a better justice system? Would you want it in place over here? That's what you're implying.

Well you see if i say yes to that then you will take it to mean that i agree with sharia law and all that goes with it. I dont. Many of Saudi Arabias laws are seriously fcuked up.

However i do think they have a better system as regards sentencing and yes i do believe its better than irelands. However saying that its by no means ideal, just better!

sligopark · 20-08-2010 12:47AM

Biggins wrote: »

First part true - latter part: pain does not mean gain in regards justice being melted out and acting as a deterrent for one to "go forth and not sin again".

Biggins I see where you are coming from but have you noticed the rate or reticism regarding violent crime these days?

Its time for something resembling old style, recent North style or something Saudi these days in modern Ireland

And then some sort of serious non liberal investigation into the whys

20-08-2010 12:47AM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

How could you possibly know that?

All i'm saying is i find it quite funny when people start saying we should start taking tips from the Saudi Arabian justice system.

Our's is too lenient, there's is too harsh.. A happy medium would be good.

who what when · 20-08-2010 12:54AM

Biggins wrote: »

Well lets be honest, if they are wishing to apply the type of punishment that the OP mentions, cleary their chosen punishments are not perfect nor a deterrent - as the crimes are still occurring there - are they not?

As for "superior" - thats a point of view - not a proven statistic fact.
At least our scales of justice - while not perfect - reach for a higher form of moral justice to be applied.
I'd rather see justice be reaching up for answers, than reaching down to the scumbag level.

Jesus biggins you're getting into word play now!

Ok i totally agree their punishments are not perfect because like you say crimes are still happening. But yes i still maintain that their system is superior (better, more successful) than ours because their rates of crime are far lower than ours.

cc87 · 20-08-2010 12:56AM

Deleted User wrote: »

And in the cases of paralysis, serious deformity etc. what would you think of there being a choice just for us violent animals?
I mean if you were glassed in the face, would you rather the attacked get five years or get deformed himself?

Well the problem would be if he got 5 years chances are he would be released after 2 years or even less.

Biggins · 20-08-2010 12:57AM

sligopark wrote: »

Biggins I see where you are coming from but have you noticed the rate or reticism regarding violent crime these days?

Its time for something resembling old style, recent North style or something Saudi these days in modern Ireland

And then some sort of serious non liberal investigation into the whys

There is a lot wrong indeed with our own system and better minds than my own would list them much better.
One improvement that should be made is that life should mean life. That 10, 12 or 15 years for example should indeed mean those years being spent behind bars - and for absolute serious cases, none of this parole crap.
Also this idea that they should get paid even a token amount while in jail for every week served should be thrown out too.
(Our now famous released rapist earned a tidy sum because of this for example)

There are many changes that can be made - and that can try to act as a harsher, more serious deterrent - but stepping backwards into emotionalistic justice in the end sees no winners or better justice being passed down (not up!).

who what when wrote: »

...But yes i still maintain that their system is superior (better, more successful) than ours because their rates of crime are far lower than ours.

And again as I have stated my opinion, you have stated yours - which is absolutely fair enough.

As regards "their rates of crime are far lower than ours" - can you indeed show this by statistic fact and if you can, in what ratio of population of their country in comparison to ours?
If their ratio's are better and you can prove your put forth hypothesis with statistic evidence, your opinion will have greater standing.
Till then, I will hold onto my faith that despite our own sometimes failings, our justice system is the better of two worlds - or countries.

sligopark · 20-08-2010 01:03AM

Biggins wrote: »

There is a lot wrong indeed with our own system and better minds than my own would list them much better.
One improvement that should be made is that life should mean life. that 10 or 12 or 15 years for example should indeed mean those years being spent behind bars - and for absolute serious cases, none of this parole crap.
Also this idea that they should get paid even a token amount while in jail for every week served should be thrown out too.
(Our now famous released rapist earned a tidy sum because of this for example)

There are many changes that can be made - and that can try to act as a harsher, more serious deterrent - but stepping backwards into emotionalistic justice in the end sees no winners or better justice being passed down (not up!).

Agreed about their day to day payments (does the general public even konow of this or the openess of the likes of Castlerea where murders have served their full terms)?

where is the physical element of our 'justice' system? where is the basis of brehon law?

Personally I think it is time to beat criminals on the street robbers, rapists, politicians, banksters before any serving of purposely overcrowded and denigrating prison time, along with ongoing weekly fines toward victims rather than government or EU until death

Plautus · 20-08-2010 01:06AM

who what when wrote: »

Jesus biggins you're getting into word play now!

Ok i totally agree their punishments are not perfect because like you say crimes are still happening. But yes i still maintain that their system is superior (better, more successful) than ours because their rates of crime are far lower than ours.

Fulsome apologies for when this bruises your ego - but you're no f**king jurisprudence major, are you?

Rates of crime being 'lower', you say? Is that an absolute end?

You see, there are several things that you pay for with such a restrictive system. Namely liberty, checks and balances, fair play, transparency and accountability.

They have a religious police. Places of worship other than Islamic ones are outlawed. Public religious worship of any variety other than Islam is punishable. Immodesty, which ranges from styles of clothing to speech, is punishable. There is scant routes of appeal against injustice, the almost non-existent rules of evidence permit convictions merely where the state wills it, there is no oversight of custody arrangements; no Habeas Corpus, torture is used against detainees, there is no political opposition, surveillance of private lives is arbitrary and intrusive.

You'd have to be a bell end to think that this is preferable to a system where you and I can walk around, spouting ****e without fear of a baton charge from a guy with an absolutist interpretation of a holy book. Does crime affect you daily, or are you affecting to living in terror because of what you read in the tabloids about how we're living in degraded, deplorable, devastated Babylon? De drugs, Joe, de pimps, Joe, de gangland - Jaysis!

I suppose it is the great pity of the liberty afforded by the Common Law that those living under it sometimes don't even appreciate what they've got that was so hard fought for over centuries.

sligopark · 20-08-2010 01:06AM

Biggins wrote: »

As regards "their rates of crime are far lower than ours" - can you indeed show this by statistic fact and if you can, in what ration of population of their country in comparison to ours?

Right now I can't for Saudi other than what is to be heard but in regards to N. Ireland it is widely known

kneecapping worked

and many in communities across N. Ireland would like this aspect of the last thirtiy years reinstated into their communities again

Finally a judge with the right idea...

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