BJJ and Submission Wrestling what are the differences?

yomchi · 17-08-2010 01:00PM #1

Looking for opinions here on this one, I know the obvious GI versus no GI argument etc, but other than that what are the differences of these systems?

Thanks lads

cowzerp · 17-08-2010 01:04PM

Sub wrestling is more about the submission and BJJ is points based so Sub wrestling can be more positive in that the finish is what is most important, most sub wrestlers are BJJ players without the gi on anyway.. so in that regard there pretty much the same thing with some minor differences.

Doug Cartel · 17-08-2010 01:22PM

I've been to points based sub-wrestling competitions, so the use of a points system isn't the difference.

Submission wrestling/grappling technically refers to any form of wrestling where submission holds are allowed, so you could get away with saying that judo, BJJ, SAMBO, catch etc are all forms of sub-grappling.

In practice though it almost always refers to no-gi BJJ. Sub-grappling competitions are usually more open to non-BJJ clubs as well.

_oveless · 17-08-2010 02:59PM

There was a thread on this a while back and I'm still confused, is submission wrestling just a ruleset not an art or sytems i.e. you can't just learn submission wrestling, you learn bjj/judo/sambo etc. without the gi and compete in submission wrestling competitions?

Plastikman_eire · 17-08-2010 03:06PM

The gi and the grips/handles it allows are the only differences

Sid_Justice · 17-08-2010 03:20PM

As usual I will try explain by use of analogy, and will endeavor to not use analogies that make what I'm explaining sound more complicated than it actually is.

i think the best way to think of Submission wrestling is as a field used for different grappling martial arts to compete against each other on a neutral rule set. If you can imagine MMA 10 years ago, it was Wrestlers with some boxing versus Karate guys with Jujitsu.

However, like MMA, some people have chosen to take the unified rule set as their base art. So nowadays, competitors in the UFC are MMA fighters well versed in different martial arts much more frequently than Wrestlers with a bit of boxing.

The big difference is, if you were purely a Wrestler you'd be unprepared for MMA at a high level but if you were purely a BJJ guy you'd be fairly well prepared for submission wrestling. Thus, it doesn't require by it's nature the same degree of 'cross training'.

So in terms of techniques, there is very little in submission wrestling that isn't in "no gi bjj" but in terms of philosophy, you could have guys that have a very sombo/catch wrestling approach (leg submissions)
bjj approach (chokes and arm bars)
judo and wrestling approach (take downs and pins, holds)

To make things a little bit more murky. Most people believe BJJ must be practiced in the gi, if not, you're doing submission wrestling. While others feel, they can take the entire ethos, philosophy, training method, concepts (everything except the gi) into submisison and still consider themselves BJJ practitioners just no-gi experts.

Thus if you trained your entire life in TKD, wore a TKD dobook and took part in a Kenpo Karate competition and put on a Kenpo suit and a white belt, would you be doing TKD fighting or Kenpo? Semi-contact/light contact kickboxing with slight nuances for rule sets differences.

all the top Submission Wrestling guys are generally BJJ blackbelts who have trained extensively in Free Style wrestling. Thus all their stuff is suitably adapted for no-gi. Some guys are excellent at both BJJ and Submission wrestling (marcelo garcia, bj penn etc.) and some guys just can't cope in one and excel in the other.

In a nut shell, submission wrestling it's a term like kickboxing that's inherently ambiguous and open to interpretation. For some it's just no-gi bjj and for others it's politically/philosophically/technically distinct

EnjoyChoke · 17-08-2010 03:28PM

cowzerp wrote: »

Sub wrestling is more about the submission and BJJ is points based so Sub wrestling can be more positive in that the finish is what is most

Most Sub wrestling matches use a points system. BJJ is every bit as much about the submission as Sub wrestling.
Strange to hear otherwise from an experienced player.

cowzerp · 17-08-2010 03:47PM

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Most Sub wrestling matches use a points system. BJJ is every bit as much about the submission as Sub wrestling.
Strange to hear otherwise from an experienced player.

Im not all that experienced!

Submission wrestling often has no points at all, when it does it's actually more no gi BJJ, the points are based on BJJ scoring so thats the hint for ya.

EnjoyChoke · 17-08-2010 04:03PM

cowzerp wrote: »

Submission wrestling often has no points at all, when it does it's actually more no gi BJJ, the points are based on BJJ scoring so thats the hint for ya.

Nope. Most of the time Sub wrestling uses a points system. Outside of NoGi BJJ rules you have, among others, ADCC, Urban Gorrillaz and FILA Grappling.
The Primary focus of all is control and submission. To say BJJ somehow has less focus on submissions and more on points is silly.

cowzerp · 17-08-2010 04:10PM

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

To say BJJ somehow has less focus on submissions and more on points is silly.

your missing the point, in no scoring sub wrestling its all about the finish, in BJJ the scoring is the 1st priority, especially at the higher levels, im not saying that in BJJ submission is not the aim.

yomchi · 17-08-2010 04:16PM

Ok so in essence I can't go anywhere to learn submission wrestling per se, I'd have to learn BJJ which opens up avenues to compete at sub wrestling?

Thanks so far lads

EnjoyChoke · 17-08-2010 04:28PM

cowzerp wrote: »

your missing the point, in no scoring sub wrestling its all about the finish, in BJJ the scoring is the 1st priority, especially at the higher levels, im not saying that in BJJ submission is not the aim.

In no scoring BJJ it's all about the finish, in Sub wrestling the scoring is the 1st priority, especially at the higher levels

Sid_Justice · 17-08-2010 04:31PM

Not necessarily, Jon. If you're goal is to learn ground fighting/grappling/submission wrestling without the baggage of BJJ (belts, gis, lineage, Hoyce Gracie fanatics) there are still some options around. BUt you're right, it seems the vast majority are BJJ in origins.

EnjoyChoke · 17-08-2010 04:31PM

yomchi wrote: »

Ok so in essence I can't go anywhere to learn submission wrestling per se, I'd have to learn BJJ which opens up avenues to compete at sub wrestling?

Thanks so far lads

You can, there are a few places that do Nogi only but any good BJJ club in the country will give you bucket loads of opportunities to compete at Sub wrestling.

yomchi · 17-08-2010 04:43PM

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Not necessarily, Jon. If you're goal is to learn ground fighting/grappling/submission wrestling without the baggage of BJJ (belts, gis, lineage, Hoyce Gracie fanatics) there are still some options around. BUt you're right, it seems the vast majority are BJJ in origins.

Thanks for that, I keep getting drawn to grappling. I did BJJ and while I couldn't get the hang of being on the ground for so long I was starting to enjoy it. I HATED wearing the big blue potato sack, or maybe it was just the white belt :P but to be honest I'm not so concerned about belts or gradings but I'd love to get some decent skill in grappling without the Gi or the belts.

Any suggestions? I enjoyed a small bit of training with JK in the past when he came to my place to give a seminar, does he do no Gi stuff?

Sid_Justice · 17-08-2010 04:53PM

I think everyone that does MMA does a night dedicated to no-gi grappling. I think the Next Generation guys are main no-gi people (they don't do any gi classes afaik).

http://www.nextgenerationireland.com/

they're based in monkstown with affiliates in arklow and clondalkin. new beginner class starting next week.

EnjoyChoke · 17-08-2010 04:53PM

yomchi wrote: »

Thanks for that, I keep getting drawn to grappling. I did BJJ and while I couldn't get the hang of being on the ground for so long I was starting to enjoy it. I HATED wearing the big blue potato sack, or maybe it was just the white belt :P but to be honest I'm not so concerned about belts or gradings but I'd love to get some decent skill in grappling without the Gi or the belts.

Any suggestions? I enjoyed a small bit of training with JK in the past when he came to my place to give a seminar, does he do no Gi stuff?

It's about 50/50 Gi/NoGi in SBG. Personaly I think this is the perfect mix, If you do one without the other your missing out, but that's just me

Barry.Oglesby · 17-08-2010 06:46PM

The only competitions I can think of that have run as submission only have been my mini-leagues and the NSC. Every other tournament, go or nogi has run on a points system. All the big nogi tournaments use a points system, and often one that's to the detriment of the BJJ player. Urban Gorrilaz, Grappler's Quest, ADCC, FILA for example.

"The potato sack", as you call it Jon, does take some getting used to but it's great fun and the amazing things you can use the gi for (the myriad grips for example) really make the game like a chess match. I enjoyed grappling until I learned the first 1% of what can be done in the Gi and now I don't just enjoy it anymore, now it threatens my reletionships with real people

With nogi, I still enjoy it but being honest, not as much. The challenge here is keeping pins and grips without anything to hold on to. It's slippier, harder to grip (obviously), there are a lot of things that don't transfer across such as the grips and certain guards, but it's mostly the same game, especially at a lower level. A good example is the ADCC. Pretty much every winner of the ADCC absolute has been a "gi" player, and this is a format suitable for wrestlers (2 points for a reversal for example). It's not quite QED but I think it's a good indicator of why it's not detrimental to train in the gi.

On a point of fact, I don't think I've ever met a good predominantly gi grappler who couldn't transfer easily to nogi.

yomchi · 17-08-2010 08:49PM

Hmmm now you have me thinking Barry. I see what your saying about not learning the gi approach first and missing out on such grabs and traps. I remember the old collar choke and in open guard the need to keep a firm hold on the sleeves of the opponent. I'm not pressed on competition either although I wouldn't avoid it by any means coming from a competitive back ground.

I think everyone that does MMA does a night dedicated to no-gi grappling. I think the Next Generation guys are main no-gi people (they don't do any gi classes afaik).

http://www.nextgenerationireland.com/

they're based in monkstown with affiliates in arklow and clondalkin. new beginner class starting next week.

Thanks for that Sid but Monkstown is a bit of a distance. I'd be interested to hear the views of someone that trains predominantly no-gi though.

It's about 50/50 Gi/NoGi in SBG. Personaly I think this is the perfect mix, If you do one without the other your missing out, but that's just me

I've watched some of the SBG videos and I see they do a bit of both. There's one video of JK rolling with some Norwegian looking chap, and I said, that looks easy, I want to do that

Thanks for the input so far lads.

EnjoyChoke · 17-08-2010 09:46PM

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

On a point of fact, I don't think I've ever met a good predominantly gi grappler who couldn't transfer easily to nogi.

I've found the opposite to be true as well.
Both games have so much to offer and have so many transferable skills It'd be a shame to exclude one.

MarkFairman · 18-08-2010 01:11PM

I hosted a no gi seminar with JK before in Limerick. It was excellent!

JK is a BJJ guy through and through but I imagine does as much if not even more No Gi then Gi.

But im sure he would answer that better then me

yomchi · 18-08-2010 01:25PM

MarkFairman wrote: »

I hosted a no gi seminar with JK before in Limerick. It was excellent!

JK is a BJJ guy through and through but I imagine does as much if not even more No Gi then Gi.

But im sure he would answer that better then me

He might be along soon

Daniel2oo9 · 20-08-2010 01:08PM

Im not fully sure but i think Sub Wrestling is about maintaining top control first and then go for a sub,where jiu jitsu is about controling from the bottom and going for submissions

EnjoyChoke · 20-08-2010 01:21PM

Daniel2oo9 wrote: »

Im not fully sure but i think Sub Wrestling is about maintaining top control first and then go for a sub,where jiu jitsu is about controling from the bottom and going for submissions

Top in both is King.

Chris89 · 20-08-2010 02:25PM

All I know is that the more I search sub wrestling on YouTube the creepier my recommnded videos get.

pablohoney87 · 20-08-2010 02:37PM

Chris89 wrote: »

All I know is that the more I search sub wrestling on YouTube the creepier my recommnded videos get.

Just never ever search Japaneese thumb wrestling.:eek:

EnjoyChoke · 20-08-2010 02:48PM

yomchi wrote: »

Looking for opinions here on this one, I know the obvious GI versus no GI argument etc, but other than that what are the differences of these systems?

Thanks lads

The "grip battle" is what really separates the two games.
In the Gi you can spend an extraordinary amount of time fighting for a dominant grip before transitioning or setting up attacks. Establishing a good grip can effect the outcome of a match.
It’s a relatively subtle difference, but it is a game changer.

yomchi · 20-08-2010 03:56PM

That makes sense alright, the only place I've come across that does sub wrestling is coolmine so far though it's hard to find!

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

The "grip battle" is what really separates the two games.
In the Gi you can spend an extraordinary amount of time fighting for a dominant grip before transitioning or setting up attacks. Establishing a good grip can effect the outcome of a match.
It’s a relatively subtle difference, but it is a game changer.

Barry.Oglesby · 20-08-2010 06:34PM

Nogi BJJ IS sub wrestling. There is no difference. All of the "sub wrestling" gyms in Dublin are BJJ gyms training without the gi. We do "sub wrestling" one night and one afternoon per week for example.

I think everyone thought you were referring to the competition distinctions. I don't know of any BJJ gym that doesn't do at least some nogi.

SBG Ireland · 20-08-2010 09:25PM

i wouldnt waste my time with that john fella!

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Top in both is King.

some sound and somewhat familiar advice there!

when ur on the mat long enough the labels mean less and less - judo, bjj, sambo, submission, wrestling....its all just 'grappling'. and grappling is about the most efficient way of controlling another human without strikes.

as a coach i would recommend wearing the gi as it'll slow you down and make you more mindful of your movement. otherwise you'll be spazzing out probably hurting yourself or your training parter.

once your past that stage, are completely relaxed on the mat then i prefer no-gi - more 'pure'

David Jones · 21-08-2010 09:10AM

Naming things...I blame Darwin! Just get on the mat and roll,stop worrying about what its called.

as a coach i would recommend wearing the gi as it'll slow you down and make you more mindful of your movement. otherwise you'll be spazzing out probably hurting yourself or your training parter.

That doesnt always work, so you can always order one of these with club patches.:D

once your past that stage, are completely relaxed on the mat then i prefer no-gi - more 'pure'

Agree completely though finding one or more relaxed individuals is very difficult. People dont hurt people on the mat, EGOS do.

For what its worth Next Generation offers classes in brazilian luta no gi livre sambo catch wrestling of the submission kind.

BJJ and Submission Wrestling what are the differences?

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