Re-loading and the law in Ireland..has it changed?

Mr Mole · 09-08-2010 09:26PM

Good valid points already lads. There appeared to be a perception out there that the powers that be had facilitated a trial in the sense that there is no reloading permitted under the existing laws. There is, if one has lawful possession of the components, and complies with the regulations on the safe storage of Explosives. Of course the trial is within the law.

Yes there are risks, risks with trained people, and risks with untrained people. Risk assessment and proper training and regulation brings the risks to a minimum. There are some "online" and "postal" reloading courses that are downright unsuitable, in that there is no hands on supervision or training, so personally, I would not suggest them to anyone.

We all have to recognise that there ARE concerns, and its our job to satisfy them in the same manner we would do regarding our firearms.

Agreed, hunters might have a need for reloading, but would they fire a level of ammunition that would make the need for reloading essential or economic? Maybe a club /shared system would be better than loads of reloaders throughout the country, ensuring safe storage, supervision and safety?

johngalway · 09-08-2010 10:06PM

Mr Mole wrote: »

Agreed, hunters might have a need for reloading, but would they fire a level of ammunition that would make the need for reloading essential or economic? Maybe a club /shared system would be better than loads of reloaders throughout the country, ensuring safe storage, supervision and safety?

Number of rounds fired doesn't matter, the benefits of reloading are developing a suitable round for your rifle, and consequently - as you know what the right ingredients are - keeping that round consistent for the future. Not having to worry about batch numbers or your dealer not having ammo X in again for the next six months.

I disagree with the club idea as it immediately discommodes any shooter who isn't involved in a club. The push should be on for reloading for all, as in other countries, and not another Irish solution for another Irish problem.

tac foley · 09-08-2010 10:13PM

As the token Jew on this board, I have to remind EVERYBODY that reloading is VERY cost-effective, once you have gotten over the initial cost of the equipment [so why not share the cost?].

If I did not reload four centre-fire calibres, particularly for my solitary handgun - I just could not afford to shoot ANY of them.

I can duplicate .308 Win Lapua 167gr Match ammunition, by using exactly the same components as Lapua Oy. does, for just about 28% of the store price here in UK.

You can't beat that.

tac

Grizzly 45 · 10-08-2010 01:43AM

Mr Mole wrote: »

Good valid points already lads. There appeared to be a perception out there that the powers that be had facilitated a trial in the sense that there is no reloading permitted under the existing laws. There is, if one has lawful possession of the components, and complies with the regulations on the safe storage of Explosives. Of course the trial is within the law.

Yes there are risks, risks with trained people, and risks with untrained people. Risk assessment and proper training and regulation brings the risks to a minimum. There are some "online" and "postal" reloading courses that are downright unsuitable, in that there is no hands on supervision or training, so personally, I would not suggest them to anyone.

Very true..However we have a tendency to go for "overkill" in some things regarding saftey.As Tac said the NRA course in reloading is perfectly acceptable to over 500 million gunowners in the USA,who I might add have ready access to 100% more dangerous things and explosives in the USA than we have,and how many "gunowners" have been found blowing up ATFE offices with pipebombs made from gunpowder in the US every week???My cousin did the German reloading course and liscense.How much of it was actually concerned with reloading a shell???? TWO hours!!
The rest of a six day course was legalistic bumpf,on EU,UN standards andhow to transport ,store and handle HE,BP and nitro powder,and how to read ballistic data..

Transporting nitro powder can be sumed up as.Keep it in the original transport carton and container,dont smoke while handling,store in the transport container,use only the amount you require for the amount of shells to be reloaded.Dont keep it near naked flame,and mind excessive static elecky build up.More important when you were using old tin cans for powder.Nowadays it is stored in 1kg plastic cans like detergent bottles in looks.So if it does burn all it will do is cook off in a big expensive cloud of smoke. The big thing over there is the actual storage facility of your powder.Forget it if you are living in an apartment block!.However a 1kg container is no more and proably less volitile than a 20 litre jerry can full of petrol.Yet people store petrol and gas in the most stupid of ways.
So guess which type of legislation will be introduced here.??:rolleyes:

We all have to recognise that there ARE concerns, and its our job to satisfy them in the same manner we would do regarding our firearms.

We have had some totally lethal suggestions from the PTB on how this powder should be stored.In locked steel boxes or safes,bolted to the floor!!:eek::eek: IOW a potential huge bomb that is unmoveable by the fire dept if your house is ever on fire. I wont even bolt my ammo storage box to the wall for that very reason.[Of which the Super and CPO were happy enough with as well.]
Nothing like being advised and legislated by the unknowing.

Agreed, hunters might have a need for reloading, but would they fire a level of ammunition that would make the need for reloading essential or economic? Maybe a club /shared system would be better than loads of reloaders throughout the country, ensuring safe storage, supervision and safety?

So there is a nice central target to be hit with 10s or100s of kgs of powder and primers with all the cost of building powder magazines,alarms,HSE and Fire dept orders ,than possibly 100 of randomly dispersed loaders around the country with maybe a limit of a 1kg of powder per gun type that they reload,and the brass limit of their liscensed ammo permit???
TBH ,unless you are reloading for super accurate benchrest or have an obscure .Reloading wont be that much of a value for money or money saver in Ireland IMO.
Maybe back awhile ago,when the EU and international transport wasnt as good here,and it was a Hobsons choice on ammo .But now with daily continental runs,the net and online sales,how easy is it to order up a few thousand rounds from a EU dealerand have it shipped?

By the time you have bought the powder,heads,primers,shell casings,the tools etc,you are up into the hundreds,setting up all the equipment and complying no doubt with much new laws telling you what must be done,rather what can be done.. It will run into the thousands.
How much ammo could you buy in bulk for that,of a specific loading and store in your firearms dealer,and draw out as you need it???

Personally I dont need super accurate ammo.I know some folks out there do.But for what I need in hunting,and the odd flake at a bit of paper,factory ammo does me just fine.

tac foley · 10-08-2010 09:14AM

Dear Mr Grizzly 45 - I'd guess that reading your post would probably put off 90% of the budding reloaders in Ireland!

Let's just put a few things into perspective, and fully respecting your own personal POV that reloading is prolly not for you because of the small amounts of ammunition you would make not being cost-effective.

I agree with you. Shooting maybe a hundred rounds a year is not going to make you a keen reloader.

But target rifle shooters and many keen varminters and sporting shootersfire off many times more than that. I'm no great shakes in MY chosen area - 300m military match-type stuff - but I get through at least 5-600 x .308, 2-300 x 7.5x55 Swiss per year, even a hundred or more 7x57 in my Boer War Mauser carbine. Add to that probably well over a thousand rounds of .357Mag in the revolver - as well as the black powder rifle and handgun shooting that seems to occupy my time. I haven't even mentioned the nine .22 rifles that I shoot - plinking and fun stuff.

I don't buy a hundred kilos of propellant at a time, nor does anybody I know. Like most of us, I buy it by the can - ONE can at a time. True I buy primers by the thousand, but even that is a small container.

One for rifle, one for pistol and one for BP - I don't shoot the real BP, but a subsitute, BTW. It's cleaner, more economical and I get more shots per pound than with BP. AND I don't need a licence.

I started reloading back when Practical pstol was all the rage, and I would happily shoot around 800 or more rounds a WEEK. Try that without having reloading and you'll go bust pretty soon - unless, of course, you are one of the many Celtic Tigers we all hear about.

And just to make the point to all of you - I have been reloading safely since 1968 - at one time seven rifle and five handgun cartridges. Neither I nor anyone I know has ever had a mishap, and some of my pals are not the sharpest pencils in the box. I don't have a magazine or a purpose-built 'reloading shed' - I DO have an 8x6 shed in my backyard that I use for my steam trains as well as reloading, oh, and most of the backyard tools and a lawn-mower...

Last time I looked I had all my fingers and both my eyes.

I'm off shooting now. Talk to ya later.

tac

PS - apropos your comment about what you can buy in the US of A. In oregon you cannot buy fireworks - even sparklers - but if you are over 21 you CAN buy a case of dynamite [48 sticks]. But only one, mind.

Bananaman · 10-08-2010 10:05AM

As usual the garden path beckons

I, personally, would like for reloading to be an option - most likely I would be interested in a Co-op option where a group of people could share the costs in a club situation - in no way seeking to prevent individuals from having the option to have a press

I think, as reloading would be a somewhat new thing when authorized here training would be paramount - as many have said the NRA run some of the most popular courses - all over the world - and I am sure that instructors would not be long in being developed here should the need arise

I also think the types of people looking to reload should be taken into account

1) the perfectionist
lads looking to have consistent ammo when they need it - mostly fullbore rifle shooters but you will find this need in all forms of target shooting

2) the thrifty
those looking to lower the cost of ammo so they can afford to practice more - I would be in this bracket - as I think would the majority of people (including those in 1)

3) the hobbyist
those looking to reload because they need to - anecdotaly this is a decent percentage of reloaders in other jurisdictions - where they have a firearm chambered in either a rare or extinct calibre and would like to continue to use it

4) the curious
those that are not sure if they need or want to reload but will go out and buy all the equipment - make up a box or two of ammo once in a blue moon

I'm sure those are terrible generalizations on my part but the stand to differentiate between the needs of the various people who would like to see it as an option

anecdotally what happens in other jurisdictions will only be used as an example if it is in the form of restrictions

I am not aware of any consultation taking place with any groups that would be interested in the reloading process - except those involved in the creedmoor trial but that would be limited to a small subset of 1) and hence not really consultation

it would be interesting to know what the terms of reference for the new explosives materials act are to see whether or not they seek to facilitate reloading or whether they seek to prevent it

B'Man

Mr Mole · 10-08-2010 10:07AM

Hi Gents,
I feel my post was worthwhile to tease out opinion from the various shooters and disciplines. My own personal view on this topic, is that reloading can be done in Ireland as easily and as safely as in other countries. I have seen it done by friends /shooters in N.I and the USA, and there is neither mystery nor great danger to it. Personally, I wouldnt have the need, but the best of luck to anyone that has.

Bananaman · 10-08-2010 10:11AM

I think that is a factor that the PTB are not taking into account - as with CF pistols - they probably fear an 'opening of the floodgates' - however the reality, should it be authorized, may be more of a whimper than a roar

there is demand but there is not huge demand and authorizing it would not make Ireland a force to be reckoned with in the primer import business

B'Man

Vegeta · 10-08-2010 10:28AM

A lot of people here (who post on boards) would do it but that's because we probably tick a lot of the 1-4 boxes in B'Man's post above

There are about 35 people in my gun club and I'd say maybe 4 people would do it

Is there anything we can do as a group to help this move forward?

tac foley · 10-08-2010 11:15AM

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Mr Mole wrote: »

...regulations on the safe storage of Explosives. Of course the trial is within the law.

Sigh.........

Nitro-cellulose smokeless powders of whatever type and formulation [single or double-based] used in reloading are internationally classed as propellants - NOT explosives. Even the label reads 'propellant' in whatever language applies. 'Savutonta Ruutia' in Finnish [smokeless powder], Triebstoff [propellant] in German, and so on....

IF they were explosives then you would not see the shelves in gun-stores stacked with the stuff on open display.

Black Powder - gunpowder - IS a Class 1 explosive and requires a licence in most countries.

When the 1875 Explosives Act was introduced there was no such thing as nitro-cellulose propellant of any kind - there was ONLY black powder/gun-powder - this is the reason why it is not mentioned in the Act.

I'll end my contribution to this thread by making a simple comment that I have been repeating to my fellow Irish shooters whenever the subject of reloading is mentioned - If you can be trusted by the authorities with one or more potentially lethal firearms, why can't you be trusted to make ammunition for it?

tac

johngalway · 10-08-2010 12:21PM

Vegeta wrote: »

Is there anything we can do as a group to help this move forward?

I'm going to drop my TD an email this evening, see what he has to say on the matter.

rrpc · 10-08-2010 01:10PM

johngalway wrote: »

I'm going to drop my TD an email this evening, see what he has to say on the matter.

I'm not sure that's a great idea. Some TD's may understand the issue and its importance to the shooting community but others may have a less sanguine approach to it. You don't have to travel very far to find them :rolleyes:

The new bill is in its formative stages and the trial for the Creedmore is needed to put all the myths and fears to rest. Pushing things at this stage when (from what I understand) there is an unholy pile of legislation clogging up the works may well have the reverse affect to what's intended.

If there's a willingness to facilitate the practice (and I can't interpret the Creedmore trial any other way) then there really seems to be no good reason to make a fuss at this point.

Grizzly 45 · 10-08-2010 02:06PM

tac foley wrote: »

Dear Mr Grizzly 45 - I'd guess that reading your post would probably put off 90% of the budding reloaders in Ireland

!

Shalom Tac..Let me take a few points in here.
Not not meant to put off 90% of anyone,just put it a realistic perspective of finance.And from having a relative who reloads for obscure 7mm hunting rifles,who has gone thru the EU works, who is more tight fisted than the famous "Mac Goldbaum" clan of Scotland,[who invented copper wire,by a famous battle over a penny.:D]If he thinks it isnt worth it for commercial reasons of money saving then it certainly isnt.He shoots skeet semi pro BTW and wouldnt ever consider reloading a cartridge either.

Let's just put a few things into perspective, and fully respecting your own personal POV that reloading is prolly not for you because of the small amounts of ammunition you would make not being cost-effective.

I agree with you. Shooting maybe a hundred rounds a year is not going to make you a keen reloader.

Put it like this,if I was doing it,all I would need is a Lee handloader to work up maybe a specific load to try it out.But would I need a full reloading setup,I doubt it.

But target rifle shooters and many keen varminters and sporting shootersfire off many times more than that. I'm no great shakes in MY chosen area - 300m military match-type stuff - but I get through at least 5-600 x .308, 2-300 x 7.5x55 Swiss per year, even a hundred or more 7x57 in my Boer War Mauser carbine. Add to that probably well over a thousand rounds of .357Mag in the revolver - as well as the black powder rifle and handgun shooting that seems to occupy my time. I haven't even mentioned the nine .22 rifles that I shoot - plinking and fun stuff.

I don't buy a hundred kilos of propellant at a time, nor does anybody I know. Like most of us, I buy it by the can - ONE can at a time. True I buy primers by the thousand, but even that is a small container

Think you have taken a point out of context!I meant that if it is centralised,you could have 100okgs of powder stored in a club reloading magazine,not individuals buying it.
.

One for rifle, one for pistol and one for BP - I don't shoot the real BP, but a subsitute, BTW. It's cleaner, more economical and I get more shots per pound than with BP. AND I don't need a licence.

Pryodex???Good stuff that you have a choice to do this.WE cant even get pryodex here or its sucessors.

I started reloading back when Practical pstol was all the rage, and I would happily shoot around 800 or more rounds a WEEK. Try that without having reloading and you'll go bust pretty soon - unless, of course, you are one of the many Celtic Tigers we all hear about.

Belive it or not,I WAS starting into it here,until our minister,and police force and justice dept,conjoined their thinking and came up with it being "combat shooting training"and banned it,but left the option open for anyone to practise fully as much military manouvers as they like by using airsoft.Which obviously shows that no one has ever in these depts actually done any proper combat shooting in their lives ..As no one who has done either would claim that they are the same block of wood.:mad:
But we digress.
EVEN the top names in IPSC cant afford to reload ,from just the time factor and finance.Why do you think they have major firearm companies sponsoring them ,it is mostly ammo costs tha t is their budget.Same with top clay shooters,their ammo is a huge cost factor.
I still maintain you could buy 3200 rounds of 9mm [your months supply] of factory quality controlled ammo,for a lot less than it will cost to set up a reloading bench with the capabilities to reload that amount efficently here in Ireland.Maybe somone has and fair dues to them.But I still think it is an expensive proposition.

And just to make the point to all of you - I have been reloading safely since 1968 - at one time seven rifle and five handgun cartridges. Neither I nor anyone I know has ever had a mishap, and some of my pals are not the sharpest pencils in the box. I don't have a magazine or a purpose-built 'reloading shed' - I DO have an 8x6 shed in my backyard that I use for my steam trains as well as reloading, oh, and most of the backyard tools and a lawn-mower...
Last time I looked I had all my fingers and both my eyes.

Thats great and thats the way it should be.But as usual common sense being the most uncommon sense here,along with the inbuilt paranoia of "it might fall into criminal hands" will almost gaurentee we will have to be reloading in a bunker some place.:rolleyes:

I'm off shooting now. Talk to ya later.

tac
PS - apropos your comment about what you can buy in the US of A. In oregon you cannot buy fireworks - even sparklers - but if you are over 21 you CAN buy a case of dynamite [48 sticks]. But only one, mind.[/QUOTE

Great isnt it?:D.
Better bang on the 4th!
But you cant vote or go to a girlie bar or drink a beer until you are 21.But you can get married drive a car,and own a rifle /shotgun,be tried as an adult at 18,and go and play with million dollars worth of war machines in the desert of Iraq or ghanistan for Mom, God and Apple pie,but woe betide you bring ing back your personal handgun as a war souviner if you are under 21!:(
Only in America!:rolleyes:

Vegeta · 10-08-2010 02:49PM

rrpc wrote: »

If there's a willingness to facilitate the practice (and I can't interpret the Creedmore trial any other way) then there really seems to be no good reason to make a fuss at this point.

I do have a fear that it may be allowed but in a severely castrated way. Such as loading on target club grounds only.

Which would be no good for hunters or varminters.

I suppose my fear is this, speaking to our TDs now may indeed muddy the water and might even annoy people currently in discussion with the PTB. The people in these discussions are more than likely target shooters (Creedmore trial) and in their official capacities are not making respresentations on behalf of any hunters(nor would I ever expect them to)

Just afraid my primary interest group i.e. hunters and varminters will not be represented. I'm a greedy sod ya see

johngalway · 10-08-2010 03:38PM

I agree with Vegetas post. There was a line earlier that hunters may need some reloading, yeah, whatever. Because we don't shoot a million rounds a week doesn't lessen the importance of having an accurate round for our rifles. I share Veg's fear that it'll be limited to clubs. Sorry, but, if I had ever wanted to join a club I would have done so long ago, I don't and neither do I wish to be forced to join one to participate in reloading when the rest of the civilized world can do so individually.

The worst possible outcome in a semi allowable solution is this Irish solution to an Irish problem, like Veg said that it comes in but in a castrated way. It also highlights the ongoing serious divisions in the shooting, and I use the term loosely, "community". I'm alright Jack, but screw you other guys.

No thanks.

rrpc · 10-08-2010 04:00PM

johngalway wrote: »

I agree with Vegetas post. There was a line earlier that hunters may need some reloading, yeah, whatever. Because we don't shoot a million rounds a week doesn't lessen the importance of having an accurate round for our rifles. I share Veg's fear that it'll be limited to clubs. Sorry, but, if I had ever wanted to join a club I would have done so long ago, I don't and neither do I wish to be forced to join one to participate in reloading when the rest of the civilized world can do so individually.

The worst possible outcome in a semi allowable solution is this Irish solution to an Irish problem, like Veg said that it comes in but in a castrated way. It also highlights the ongoing serious divisions in the shooting, and I use the term loosely, "community". I'm alright Jack, but screw you other guys.

No thanks.

Not being a member of a club, you're jumping to a conclusion that's not sustainable in the real world.

Most clubs would not be in a position to store components on the club premises. Even though the clubs SI has a little section devoted to the security of the premises, this is only in the case of clubs that store club firearms on the premises. The greater majority of clubs would not do this.

As for your comment about divisions, quite frankly, you're the only one who seems to think there is one on this topic. Nobody would take the view you take or suggest as you seem to, that club members would want or even accept the solution you and Vegeta are alluding to.

Now perhaps I'm 'out of the loop' and someone has already suggested this approach, but I'm saying here and now that such a solution would be way down the list as far as I'm concerned.

Apart from the security aspect, it would be highly impractical when you consider the number of different calibres, powders, heads, primers etc. that would have to be stored and allocated.

A complete nightmare in fact :rolleyes:

tac foley · 10-08-2010 04:21PM

Shalom Tac..Let me take a few points in here.
Not not meant to put off 90% of anyone,just put it a realistic perspective of finance.And from having a relative who reloads for obscure 7mm hunting rifles,who has gone thru the EU works, who is more tight fisted than the famous "Mac Goldbaum" clan of Scotland,[who invented copper wire,by a famous battle over a penny.:D]If he thinks it isnt worth it for commercial reasons of money saving then it certainly isnt.

As I noted, I can make my own equivalent of Lapua Match .308 Win for 28% of the commercial cost. I can also do it to suit two totally different rifles.

I can make 7x57 Mauser for 33% of the commercial cost - to suit both my ancient Mausers, neither of which care for modern-shaped spitzer-style bullets.

I can reload .357Mag revolver ammunition for 25% of the commercial cost, to the level of performance that suits the 14" barrel of my particular revolver.

7.5x55 Swiss is actually cheaper to buy as milsurp, simply because duplicating the original load needs an expensive bullet and comparatively large propellant load by comparison with other .308 diameter bullets, modern designs having only recently caught up with the Swiss design of 1911.

He shoots skeet semi pro BTW and wouldnt ever consider reloading a cartridge either.

I don't know anybody who reloads shotgun cartridges, but then, most semi-profis get a substantial discount, those that actually PAY for ammunition, that is.

Put it like this,if I was doing it,all I would need is a Lee handloader to work up maybe a specific load to try it out.But would I need a full reloading setup,I doubt it.

A Lee handloader is great - it's the way I started out and it gave me a great grip.

Think you have taken a point out of context!I meant that if it is centralised,you could have 100okgs of powder stored in a club reloading magazine,not individuals buying it.

Well, I shoot in Canada, two states of the USA and over here, and I've never heard of such a thing as a club reloading magazine - where on earth has THAT idea come from?

I'd like to belabour the point that in all my years on this planet I have never heard of ANY gun store being broken into to steal either propellant or other ammunition components - criminals buy their ammunition by the ton on the black market and import it under the noses of the Gardai in Dun Laoghaire and Dublin and anyplace else they fancy. The likes of the 'Aud' don't even figure on the ilegal arms market...

Pryodex???Good stuff that you have a choice to do this.WE cant even get pryodex here or its sucessors.

SOME of you must get black powder, or else there would be no historical re-enactment. And of course, Pyrodex, Triple 7 or Clean-shot are propellants - and right now, you don't get propellants. Shame, that. BP shooting is great fun, especially out at the longer ranges with a good match rifle - 800, 900, 1000 and 1200 yards or so....

EVEN the top names in IPSC cant afford to reload ,from just the time factor and finance.Why do you think they have major firearm companies sponsoring them ,it is mostly ammo costs tha t is their budget.Same with top clay shooters,their ammo is a huge cost factor.

Not met any 'top name' shooters of any kind who pay for their own ammunition.

I still maintain you could buy 3200 rounds of 9mm [your months supply] of factory quality controlled ammo,for a lot less than it will cost to set up a reloading bench with the capabilities to reload that amount efficently here in Ireland.Maybe somone has and fair dues to them.But I still think it is an expensive proposition.

We shared a VERY expensive [for us - for you guys over there it would be feed-chicken] Dillon electric progressive press, and after about three months, with five of us shooting .38 Spec and 9mm Para, it had paid for itself and we were on the 'winning' side. We were not 'top class' shooters of any kind, just ordinary joes in an average gun club. Over here, if you want anything done, you have to do it yourself. Like the man said, if you want to fly like an eagle, don't dress like a turkey - if you can't afford to do it in the first place, don't bitch about not being able to afford it. Nobody ever said that IPSC-style shooting was made with paupers in mind. The same goes for F-TR, clay shooting or any other sport where there are dues to pay and expensive tools to play with.

tac

Vegeta · 10-08-2010 04:41PM

rrpc wrote: »

As for your comment about divisions, quite frankly, you're the only one who seems to think there is one on this topic. Nobody would take the view you take or suggest as you seem to, that club members would want or even accept the solution you and Vegeta are alluding to.

Now perhaps I'm 'out of the loop' and someone has already suggested this approach, but I'm saying here and now that such a solution would be way down the list as far as I'm concerned.

I am not saying this division exists at all rrpc, I don't even think it exists and I agree it makes no sense for ranges to store this kit as many are not suited to the task.

I can just see the DoJ or whoever going "Ok we don't like the look of reloading, the thought of people storing powder in their own home scares us"

And some committee member who lives 2 minutes from the range answers back with "How about just allowing it on approved range premises then"

And then a law was born

I want to reload and I have 3 options I think
1: Do nothing and hope that whoever is speaking with the PTB will represent my interests, even when faced with less than ideal feedback
2:Contact the NARGC and ask for an update and hope they are in the loop on this discussion
3:Act on my own

Not sure which I'll do yet as I agree rocking the boat my be more damaging than helpful

This politics stuff is not to my liking

bunny shooter · 10-08-2010 04:47PM

Vegeta wrote: »

......This politics stuff is not to my liking

+1

johngalway · 10-08-2010 04:50PM

rrpc wrote: »

Not being a member of a club, you're jumping to a conclusion that's not sustainable in the real world.

Most clubs would not be in a position to store components on the club premises. Even though the clubs SI has a little section devoted to the security of the premises, this is only in the case of clubs that store club firearms on the premises. The greater majority of clubs would not do this.

As for your comment about divisions, quite frankly, you're the only one who seems to think there is one on this topic. Nobody would take the view you take or suggest as you seem to, that club members would want or even accept the solution you and Vegeta are alluding to.

Now perhaps I'm 'out of the loop' and someone has already suggested this approach, but I'm saying here and now that such a solution would be way down the list as far as I'm concerned.

Apart from the security aspect, it would be highly impractical when you consider the number of different calibres, powders, heads, primers etc. that would have to be stored and allocated.

A complete nightmare in fact :rolleyes:

So, you're saying should reloading for clubs be permitted in the future that clubs would not take it up as it would omit other shooters?

I agree storing components on club property would be a nightmare, but when has practicality or common sense prevailed in the realm of the PTB?

rrpc · 10-08-2010 04:52PM

Vegeta wrote: »

And some committee member who lives 2 minutes from the range answers back with "How about just allowing it on approved range premises then"

And then a law was born

I live 5 minutes from the range and I can just see such a solution totally wrecking my free time, or that of others in the same position. Never mind that you would either have to be 'on call' or people would turn up and you wouldn't be there.

Far too complicated to my mind and inherently unworkable. Especially when you have many ranges with nothing more than a garden shed on them.

By the same token, it's quite possible that somebody who's wont to put their mouth in gear without engaging their brain could come up with such a 'solution' because it works for them. I'm sure we all know people like that

.

Of your three solutions, I think the best is to wait for the trial to be carried out and for the new bill to be published. There'll be plenty of time to handle any issues at that stage.

And again for the record, I'm not at all in favour of a centralised system for all the reasons given.

rrpc · 10-08-2010 05:03PM

johngalway wrote: »

So, you're saying should reloading for clubs be permitted in the future that clubs would not take it up as it would omit other shooters?

bunny_shooter didn't get a licence for a mod, are you going to hand yours back?

Why don't we work towards getting what's needed instead of trying to cut off our noses to spite our faces?

Strangely enough, I wouldn't have a need to relaod, but I can see very clearly why others would and don't really see why they shouldn't, provided they can do it safely.

johngalway · 10-08-2010 05:08PM

rrpc wrote: »

bunny_shooter didn't get a licence for a mod, are you going to hand yours back?

Why don't we work towards getting what's needed instead of trying to cut off our noses to spite our faces?

Strangely enough, I wouldn't have a need to relaod, but I can see very clearly why others would and don't really see why they shouldn't, provided they can do it safely.

I'll take the non answer as a yes then

As for Bunny, no I won't hand my mod back, infact I'm getting another one

The difference there is the Gardai's interpretation of the law differing in both districts and not an edict handed down from the DOJ which would be unfairly applied across the board

Reloading isn't a particularly hard or dangerous activity. All that's needed is some attention to detail and an ability to follow the numbers so to speak.

My entire point was that everyone should have the choice to reload as a basic standard. If people want to get involved in groups, co-ops, or whichever after that level good and well, but no one should be left outside the door looking in.

tac foley · 10-08-2010 05:10PM

This is positively the very last time that I'll mention this on this forum - the stuff that makes the bang in cartridges is NOT an explosive. It is a propellant, perfectly safe to store in your broom cupboard if you felt so inclined.

I would point out that many of you living in rural areas are quite happy to have 25 or even 50 kg BOMBS in your houses, under the sinks, beside the stove - I'm talking about LPG tanks here, of course. 25 kilos of LPG going off will put the roof in the neighbouring county, let alone singe the ould eyebrows.

Modern nitro-cellulose propellants, kept and stored in their original containers, are safer than self-raising flour, a substance that IS explosive in air, as any miller will tell you.

Explosives go bang.

Propellants go FZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

No other country seems to have a government 'scared of people storing powder in their own home' - not even the British government, well-known to be paranoid about almost everything to do with either Health & Safety or shooting.

tac

It wasn't me! · 10-08-2010 05:32PM

For the purposes of Irish legislation, they *are* explosives, just as a crossbow and an air rifle are firearms. Is it correct? No. Does it do any good to argue over their actual definition? No.

bunny shooter · 10-08-2010 06:07PM

Who mentioned moddies & me

This, as in reloading, is likely to cause US yet MORE problems if it is not sorted out properly :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45 · 10-08-2010 06:20PM

I don't know anybody who reloads shotgun cartridges, but then, most semi-profis get a substantial discount, those that actually PAY for ammunition, that is.

We do...and it is still cheaper to buy Rottweil[which is pretty priccy ammo both here and Germany] than set up and reload.

Well, I shoot in Canada, two states of the USA and over here, and I've never heard of such a thing as a club reloading magazine - where on earth has THAT idea come from?

Try the Minister for justice equality and law reform, [or whatever their new handle is]
Dept of Justice,Dublin,Along with the cheif comissioner ,An Garda Siochanna HQ,Phoenix park,Dublin..They would be two good starting places .:rolleyes:

I'd like to belabour the point that in all my years on this planet I have never heard of ANY gun store being broken into to steal either propellant or other ammunition components - criminals buy their ammunition by the ton on the black market and import it under the noses of the Gardai in Dun Laoghaire and Dublin and anyplace else they fancy. The likes of the 'Aud' don't even figure on the ilegal arms market...

This WE know.It think the worry is that it would be nicked and used as a filler in pipe bombs.As the local crime lords are using DIY IEDs made by Ex subversives,who still have access for some reason to Semtex and other HE.This is the kind of mindset that has been in Govt circles since the States foundation in relation to gun ownership and explosives.We are like CA if you want a comparision,you cant even get table fireworks here legally,yet "banger season"[Illegal fire crackers] will be upon us soon too,and despite "tough new laws":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:,any kid can get them on any housing estate in the land.So go figure.

SOME of you must get black powder, or else there would be no historical re-enactment. And of course, Pyrodex, Triple 7 or Clean-shot are propellants - and right now, you don't get propellants. Shame, that. BP shooting is great fun, especially out at the longer ranges with a good match rifle - 800, 900, 1000 and 1200 yards or so....

Well there isnt that much historical renenactment here in the ROI that uses BP.Its more UK and NIthat has the BP.It is a pity,as there are some fine old BP big elephant guns that would be intresting to fire again.

Not met any 'top name' shooters of any kind who pay for their own ammunition.

Neither have I ...point being???

. Over here, if you want anything done, you have to do it yourself. Like the man said, if you want to fly like an eagle, don't dress like a turkey

Not at all different over here my good man!Proably worse,as the eagles will be poisioned,by the turkeys who begrudge the eagles ability to soar.:(

f you can't afford to do it in the first place, don't bitch about not being able to afford it. Nobody ever said that IPSC-style shooting was made with paupers in mind. The same goes for F-TR, clay shooting or any other sport where there are dues to pay and expensive tools to play with.

Thats pretty below the belt Tac...So you are saying dont go showjumping if you cant afford a top class bloodline showjumping horse????Or dont expect to shoot for the Olympics,just because you havent got a top class current issue target pistol?
Great! So you were on the "winning side" ..Of what??The nowhereville IPSC team vs the "deliverance county"IPSC team?or was it an international competition where according to you us Irish would never have been,because we didnt have top class equipment,had to pay our own way from start to finish,werent even given the time of day by the PTB,or any money.[I do belive we did get a free calender!...once],buy our own ammo.But still brought home a Gold,in the first year of the sport being founded here,and were rated the most fastest growing pistol sport in the ROI since handguns were again legal,not to mind IPSC Intl,voted Ireland the most sucessful new country in the sport TWICE.
Not bad for me thinks fora bunch of people who couldnt reload and used average equipment and bought their own ammo without the facilites to reload.Maybe we have the right to bitch about the price??

rrpc · 10-08-2010 06:31PM

johngalway wrote: »

I'll take the non answer as a yes then

You're trying to take my word as representing all clubs in this country.

You'll forgive me if I don't answer in that capacity. It's not one I hold.

I did answer personally, but that's as far as I go. I pointed out earlier that I'm not exactly in the loop on this and also that some people are inclined to open their mouths just to change feet, but I draw the line at becoming somebodies idea of a spokesperson for all clubs.

I also gave reasons for why I think it would be a bad idea and if I'm asked, that's my opinion and those are my reasons.

What more can I be expected to say?

Vegeta · 10-08-2010 07:20PM

rrpc wrote: »

Of your three solutions, I think the best is to wait for the trial to be carried out and for the new bill to be published. There'll be plenty of time to handle any issues at that stage.

This is a good point actually, we will have time between bill and law and if there is a time for lobbying then I that is the time I guess.

Mr Mole · 10-08-2010 09:16PM

Tac Foley, I know you are pissed off hearing propellant called explosives. Please understand that under Irish Law, its classed as explosives, and if found with it unlawfully, you will be charged by the Police with unlawful possession of explosives, not propellant, but explosives. Likewise its storage etc is governed by the law as pertains to explosives. Yes, you and I and everyone else knows the difference, but the law doesnt.

On the general matter of when and how anyone might be permitted to reload in Ireland, a small group can have strong bearing on how it is done, whether by individuals, or within the confines of a club or range. We have see this already with the so called approved list of .22 Olympic style pistols, and the five round restriction on non restricted pistols. Dont believe for one minute that the PTB wont listen to another small group on this issue. The last thing the PTB want to see is reloading for pistols, but might just approve it for certain rifle users / competitions if the trial satisfies them.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Re-loading and the law in Ireland..has it changed?

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