Re-loading and the law in Ireland..has it changed?

reddeer1

Guys,

Has there been any update on the law regarding re-loading your own ammo in Ireland?

dCorbus

Not as far as I'm aware.

The MNSCI have agreed a pilot programme with the DoJ etc. to facilitate the Creedmoor Cup next year - but other than that, the law stays the same.

I'm sure one of the legal-chappies (oi, sparkles, ger over 'ere now!) will explain the legal bit's and bob's. But AFAIK hand-loading is still very much verboten (to all intents and purposes). And that sort of thing could never be encouraged, sanctioned, acknowledged, or condoned on this very public forum.;)

Bananaman

Importing primers is the legal issue as that requires an explosives license - same as dynamite - which is nigh on impossible to get

B'Man

dCorbus

Thanks B'Man - I couldn't remember the round-about way in which the re-loading was "to all intents and purposes" off-limits.

So, you may own the loading equipment and the inert components (bullet and case), but you may not import the primers or the powder, as that needs an explosives import licence (or somesuch) and therefore, whilst you may re-load, you may not possess the necessary items to do so.

Have I got that right?:D

Rovi

Bananaman wrote: »

Importing primers is the legal issue as that requires an explosives license - same as dynamite - which is nigh on impossible to get

B'Man

The propellant causes Headless-Chicken-Syndrome in those charged with saving us from ourselves too.

Rovi

dCorbus wrote: »

Thanks B'Man - I couldn't remember the round-about way in which the re-loading was "to all intents and purposes" off-limits.

So, you may own the loading equipment and the inert components (bullet and case), but you may not import the primers or the powder, as that needs an explosives import licence (or somesuch) and therefore, whilst you may re-load, you may not possess the necessary items to do so.

Have I got that right?:D

That's pretty much it.
Reloading and the equipment to do it isn't illegal in and of itself, but the import, storage, and use of primers and propellant are governed by various iterations of the Explosives Acts, requiring various licences and permits, and there's a long-standing policy in place to not issue any such permit or licence.

dCorbus

Thanks Rovi

there's a long-standing policy in place to not issue any such permit or licence

Is it actually a policy or more of an hibernocrat* thing that no one knows where the forms are kept? Or if they've even printed any since Vicky was on the throne?;):D

*Hibernocrat: Noun, Word just invented by dCorbus to encapsulate and caricature the particular nature and peculiar mindset of certain paper-pushing jobs-worth burocrats working within the Irish civil service in the late 20th and early 21st Centuries CE.

Rovi

I like that word.

But no, they do know where the paperwork is; it's allegedly the same as is used to facilitate the demolitions and mining/quarrying people in acquiring the materials used the pursuit of their activities.

It appears to be more to with an irrational fear of the unknown, and a deep aversion to allowing the 'ordinary' person do something over which Official Ireland doesn't have full control and doesn't understand.

dCorbus

I like that word

You heard it here first!:D

Seriously, Google it!!

:cool:

Sparks

Technically, that almost changed and then changed back before it had had a chance to change It was to be illegal to reload without a licence, courtesy of the 2006 Act, but the specific bit of that Act (section 40) was never commenced; and then the 2009 Act repealed it.

Practically, Rovi nailed it.

Grizzly 45

Rovi wrote: »

I like that word.

But no, they do know where the paperwork is; it's allegedly the same as is used to facilitate the demolitions and mining/quarrying people in acquiring the materials used the pursuit of their activities.



Hmmmm....[Very fuzzy,grubby ,flickering lightbulb has just come on here]
Will get back to yez on this.;)

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hmmmm....[Very fuzzy,grubby ,flickering lightbulb has just come on here]
Will get back to yez on this.;)

Was done.
Pissed off a lot of people that it was done (and there were unsavoury rumours regarding how it was done).
So far as I know, the licences were either cancelled or not renewed once it became known what was going on.
Official word is that it will not be entertained again.

Best advice at this point really is to let the creedmoor trials go ahead and observe the result and not to risk queering the pitch with a side venture.

Grizzly 45

Nope,barking up the wrong tree there Sparks...Nothing illegal or otherwise...Hang about and let me look deeper into this..Thinks somthing has/was missed here.;)

Sparks

No, I mean the avenue of getting the explosives licence that way was done Grizzly, and it didn't amuse the PTB. I think there was mention of it here a while back...

Here you go, the route described by chem.

Tackleberrywho

Queering the pitch?

Thats a new expression :D

Sparks

Not in Ireland or the UK it's not, it goes back to the early 19th century.

rrpc

If it's going to be allowed here and it's 'if' rather than 'when', it'll be encapsulated in the new explosives act which is in the process of being revised.

AFAIK, the Creedmore match is a pilot scheme to have a look at the whole thing and assess what way (if any) reloading could be implemented here.

Grizzly 45

Nope! Deffo NOT that way Sparks!;)
Have to make somecalls tomrrow and over a next few weeks,I'll get back to you.
The reloading/explosives act,is and will be kept on a" slow fuse" here for along time.Seeing that the nasty little man has made such a hames ofthe firearms act.The last thing they want to be seen is making a complete dogs dinner of the explosives act,which would have much more serious consequences IMO.
Well and good if the Creedmoor rematch does somthing for the cause,but I personally belive it will be a very once off exception to the rule.The days of us happily reloading in our basements is still IMHO far away.

Bananaman

What the Trial for the Creedmoor does is provide a template for how it COULD be done - at least in a co-op sense.

Limited though it may be - it is progress.

Up until now it has not been done therefore there is no example to hold up to show that it CAN be done.

(I know it is done everywhere else but examples of what happens in other jurisdictions are only allowed to be used in the argument against :rolleyes:)

As to re-loading away in your basement - i think it that very image that is the problem for the PTB.

B'Man

Tackleberrywho

Bananaman wrote: »

What the Trial for the Creedmoor does is provide a template for how it COULD be done - at least in a co-op sense.

Limited though it may be - it is progress.

Up until now it has not been done therefore there is no example to hold up to show that it CAN be done.

(I know it is done everywhere else but examples of what happens in other jurisdictions are only allowed to be used in the argument against :rolleyes:)

As to re-loading away in your basement - i think it that very image that is the problem for the PTB.

B'Man

It would be great if loading come in.
The amount of calibres for target shooting will improve a lot.

I'd like a .223 wssm

johngalway

Dcorbus is entirely right. Hibernocrats are the only reason reloading is taboo in this state (small s). They can't use the Troubles as a reason as reloading is legal up north. Criminal elements can't be a plausible reason as there are criminals in all countries reloading is practiced, and ones a lot worse than we have. As for implementation, why not look across the water and see, they look to the UK for unnecessary laws so why not good laws. It's nothing new to most of the civilised world. As for paperwork, how hard would it be to separate the reloading components from explosives work, I mean really. If it were something to feather their own nests the PTB wouldn't be long kicking it into gear.

There is NO credible reason not to have legal reloading in the ROI.

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - in most of the countries in which I shoot it is not the individual shooter who imports primers, but the dealers.

And were it to come in here, that would be the most likely method used here as well. But dealers need import licences just as much as individual shooters, so the problem's not solved; just moved about a bit.

Sparks

There aren't any Tac, but there were at one point through some sort of loophole, now closed.
The point is that whether or not it's an individual importing and storing, or a dealer importing and storing and an individual buying and storing; individuals still need a licence or two to carry out reloading. Not for the act of reloading itself, but to obtain and store the requisite primers and propellants.
And for the moment, the PTB are very much set against granting those licences until at least the Explosives Act rewrite is complete (and frankly, rushed legislation is almost always bad legislation, so I say that waiting a while isn't the worst price in the world. Target shooters should have patience as a character mainstay at any rate...).

Sparks

It's a well-set out system in the UK from what I understand of it allright. Most of the shooting I do doesn't need reloading (.22lr is cheap enough even for center-x and airgun is obviously exempt ), but given that a 300m ISSF match could run to €180 for ammo alone, and that F-Class lads can't really be competitive without it, it's something that we do need badly here.

The only problem I have is that if we have reloading here, It Wasn't Me and IRLConor are going to start pushing even harder for me to take up fullbore, and if I do that, I can kiss goodbye to ever having any money at all...

Sparks

I wish I had that much cash. I got all my gear ten years ago and finished paying off the credit union loan I bought it with about three years ago. And now I have to buy new stuff as the old stuff's wearing out...

Quite a few of the others round here though, sink enormous amounts into their sport. They do it, for the most part, by not sinking it into other vices and pursuits. It's not so much clean living as bare necessity - so you should feel lucky that you live somewhere where your hobby or sport is not persecuted with high indirect taxes, onerous direct legislation and out-and-out mean-spirited thoughts from on high and from down low as well!

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

I wish I had that much cash. I got all my gear ten years ago and finished paying off the credit union loan I bought it with about three years ago. And now I have to buy new stuff as the old stuff's wearing out...

Quite a few of the others round here though, sink enormous amounts into their sport. They do it, for the most part, by not sinking it into other vices and pursuits. It's not so much clean living as bare necessity - so you should feel lucky that you live somewhere where your hobby or sport is not persecuted with high indirect taxes, onerous direct legislation and out-and-out mean-spirited thoughts from on high and from down low as well!

I average €1000 a year on shooting schtuff (this year €600~ to date)

I work shi**y hours so I have two options, go out shooting, or drink myself into oblivion !

Buying new Rifles and accessories makes me happy, and something to look forward to when facing in to a month of nights or having to work over Christmas!

I have not been overseas in 3 years and I rarely go to the pub! (3 times in a pub in the last 3 months)

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

...and as for facing a five-year prison sentence for the illegal possession of a single soft-point bullet - NOT ammunition, just the bullet - even YOUR law-makers could not have come up with something as wacky as that.

No, they did. A bullet is a component part of ammunition and possessing one without a licence is a violation of section two of the firearms act, the penalties for which are set out in Section 2(2A) :

(2A) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a) in case the firearm is a restricted firearm or the ammunition is restricted ammunition—
(i) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or both, and
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €20,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years or both, and
(b) in any other case—
(i) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €2,500 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or both, and
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €10,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.

Mr Mole

I would like to add these opinions to the discussion.

I believe there are points in the discussion on "reloading" that need to be clarified.

The use /possession of the components, primers and propellant are governed by the Explosive Substances Act, wheras the possession of the assembled product, ie, the projectile, is governed by the Firearms Acts.

So, if found to be unlawfully in possession of propellant, then you are prosecuted under the Explosives Substances Act, and if in unlawful possession of ammunition, then you will be prosecuted under the Firearms Acts.

There appears to be no specific ban on reloading, but the possession of the powder and primers are not lawful without the possesser being lawfully authorised. In theory, you may apply for a permit to import these products, and be in lawful possession, provided you are licenced to be in possession of the calibre you produce, and that you do not have more than the maximum on your licence, but as others have said, our "authorities" frown upon the practice of reloading. They have publicly stated that they have concerns that criminals could make higher powered ammunition for their illegal firearms.

In the case of the so called "reloading trial", a person must firstly have been lawfully permitted to import the constituant products to reload, ie, powder and primers, and for the purpose as outlined on their application, ie, reloading. Its my opinion that no trial can be permitted without being lawfully authorised under existing law, as I dont believe that our authorities would permit possession without the Law already permitting it. Regardless, all credit to those who are "trialling" to get as far as they did.

As Sparks outlined, reloading was mentioned in one Act, then not enacted, and then the reference removed in a subsequent Act. This did not take away the existing procedure for applying for the lawful importation and possession of the components.

Its a bit like applying for a firearm certificate, its at the discretion of your local Superintendent, and when you apply, the answer will be "no!

Until the new Explosives Substances Bill is published, then the practice cannot be formalised.

One can appreciate the concerns about reloading, as there are also issues of safe storage and safety training, but it is very common in other jurisdictions without there being problems with the criminal fraternity, nor any harm occurring to those who reload. There would also be minimal demand for reloading in this country, as the number of competition shooters are minimal in comparison to other countries. Yes, it would be nice, but would there be enough real demand to make our lawmakers facilitate it specifically in an Act of law?

And as usual, our authorities miss the point that shooters come from one of the most law abiding sections of the community.:)

johngalway

Mr Mole wrote: »

They have publicly stated that they have concerns that criminals could make higher powered ammunition for their illegal firearms.

Do I remember correctly that one criminal gang or other was in possession of a rocket launcher? When they can source items like that, it is not unreasonable to assume they can source ammunition as well, without the hassle & risk which comes with breaking and entering for what would be small quantities of reloading materials.

Mr Mole wrote: »

but would there be enough real demand to make our lawmakers facilitate it specifically in an Act of law?

Most of the shooting people I know would be hunters, and most of them would love to reload so they could be guaranteed of reliable supply and consistent accuracy in their individual rifles. Yes, in short, IMO.

Mr Mole wrote: »

And as usual, our authorities miss the point that shooters come from one of the most law abiding sections of the community.:)

Making us easy pickings, and without putting too fine a point on it, prone to bullying from the PTB.

tac foley

Dear Mr Mole - you wrote - '...They have publicly stated that they have concerns that criminals could make higher powered ammunition for their illegal firearms.'

So instead of shooting you dead with an illegal 9mm UZI with ordinarily lethal ammunition, they can overload the cartridge and shoot you 'REALLY dead'...

Good grief. The lack of basic knowledge of the process of reloading appals me. I had no idea that such ill-advised myths were out there.

One can appreciate the concerns about reloading, as there are also issues of safe storage and safety training, but it is very common in other jurisdictions without there being problems with the criminal fraternity, nor any harm occurring to those who reload.

The safe storage of any flammable substance relies on the common sense of the average informed person. Would you, for instance, store rat poison in a food pantry? Probably not. In like manner we do not store propellants where they are likely either to be seen, or to be in danger of catching fire. Here in UK propellants of all kinds except black powder, a licensed Class 1 explosive, are openly stored, row upon row, on shelves in sporting gun stores.

Safety training? Don't smoke whilst reloading. Wear safety glasses. Wash your hands after handling lead bullets. Don't be distracted from your task. Read and take notice of the loading manuals - do NOT experiment by 'making up' your own loads or exceed the stated maxima in the data. Take care of what you are doing - it's YOUR head lying down by the breech.

That's it.

Here the NRA runs reloading classes for all shooters.

There is absolutely nothing to prevent anybody from the RoI from attending them until such time as you have your own experts in the field.

There would also be minimal demand for reloading in this country, as the number of competition shooters are minimal in comparison to other countries. Yes, it would be nice, but would there be enough real demand to make our lawmakers facilitate it specifically in an Act of law?

I disagree with you here. The healthy interest in legalising reloading on this board is prodigious. This is because although there is a growing number of sporting shooters of all kinds, the RoI is the only country in the EU where you cannot reload your own ammunition.

tac

rrpc

Mr Mole wrote: »

In the case of the so called "reloading trial", a person must firstly have been lawfully permitted to import the constituant products to reload, ie, powder and primers, and for the purpose as outlined on their application, ie, reloading. Its my opinion that no trial can be permitted without being lawfully authorised under existing law, as I dont believe that our authorities would permit possession without the Law already permitting it. Regardless, all credit to those who are "trialling" to get as far as they did.

Just in case (and I'm sure you didn't intend it) that someone gets the idea that this trial is being carried out somewhere beyond the law, the mechanism exists currently to allow possession of powder and primers under the 1875 and 1883 acts.

And as usual, our authorities miss the point that shooters come from one of the most law abiding sections of the community.:)

I don't think that it's a case of fear of law-breaking on our part. The issue would be the level of increased risk in allowing the possession of powder and primers both at RFD and personal level. Regardless of what we think the risk level would be (and you just need to read a few threads here to see that people can be stupid or careless) it's our job to prove that the risk is so small as to be negligible.

Hopefully this trial will do just that.

Mr Mole

Good valid points already lads. There appeared to be a perception out there that the powers that be had facilitated a trial in the sense that there is no reloading permitted under the existing laws. There is, if one has lawful possession of the components, and complies with the regulations on the safe storage of Explosives. Of course the trial is within the law.

Yes there are risks, risks with trained people, and risks with untrained people. Risk assessment and proper training and regulation brings the risks to a minimum. There are some "online" and "postal" reloading courses that are downright unsuitable, in that there is no hands on supervision or training, so personally, I would not suggest them to anyone.

We all have to recognise that there ARE concerns, and its our job to satisfy them in the same manner we would do regarding our firearms.

Agreed, hunters might have a need for reloading, but would they fire a level of ammunition that would make the need for reloading essential or economic? Maybe a club /shared system would be better than loads of reloaders throughout the country, ensuring safe storage, supervision and safety?

johngalway

Mr Mole wrote: »

Agreed, hunters might have a need for reloading, but would they fire a level of ammunition that would make the need for reloading essential or economic? Maybe a club /shared system would be better than loads of reloaders throughout the country, ensuring safe storage, supervision and safety?

Number of rounds fired doesn't matter, the benefits of reloading are developing a suitable round for your rifle, and consequently - as you know what the right ingredients are - keeping that round consistent for the future. Not having to worry about batch numbers or your dealer not having ammo X in again for the next six months.

I disagree with the club idea as it immediately discommodes any shooter who isn't involved in a club. The push should be on for reloading for all, as in other countries, and not another Irish solution for another Irish problem.

tac foley

As the token Jew on this board, I have to remind EVERYBODY that reloading is VERY cost-effective, once you have gotten over the initial cost of the equipment [so why not share the cost?].

If I did not reload four centre-fire calibres, particularly for my solitary handgun - I just could not afford to shoot ANY of them.

I can duplicate .308 Win Lapua 167gr Match ammunition, by using exactly the same components as Lapua Oy. does, for just about 28% of the store price here in UK.

You can't beat that.

tac

Grizzly 45

Mr Mole wrote: »

Good valid points already lads. There appeared to be a perception out there that the powers that be had facilitated a trial in the sense that there is no reloading permitted under the existing laws. There is, if one has lawful possession of the components, and complies with the regulations on the safe storage of Explosives. Of course the trial is within the law.

Yes there are risks, risks with trained people, and risks with untrained people. Risk assessment and proper training and regulation brings the risks to a minimum. There are some "online" and "postal" reloading courses that are downright unsuitable, in that there is no hands on supervision or training, so personally, I would not suggest them to anyone.

Very true..However we have a tendency to go for "overkill" in some things regarding saftey.As Tac said the NRA course in reloading is perfectly acceptable to over 500 million gunowners in the USA,who I might add have ready access to 100% more dangerous things and explosives in the USA than we have,and how many "gunowners" have been found blowing up ATFE offices with pipebombs made from gunpowder in the US every week???My cousin did the German reloading course and liscense.How much of it was actually concerned with reloading a shell???? TWO hours!!
The rest of a six day course was legalistic bumpf,on EU,UN standards andhow to transport ,store and handle HE,BP and nitro powder,and how to read ballistic data..

Transporting nitro powder can be sumed up as.Keep it in the original transport carton and container,dont smoke while handling,store in the transport container,use only the amount you require for the amount of shells to be reloaded.Dont keep it near naked flame,and mind excessive static elecky build up.More important when you were using old tin cans for powder.Nowadays it is stored in 1kg plastic cans like detergent bottles in looks.So if it does burn all it will do is cook off in a big expensive cloud of smoke. The big thing over there is the actual storage facility of your powder.Forget it if you are living in an apartment block!.However a 1kg container is no more and proably less volitile than a 20 litre jerry can full of petrol.Yet people store petrol and gas in the most stupid of ways.
So guess which type of legislation will be introduced here.??:rolleyes:

We all have to recognise that there ARE concerns, and its our job to satisfy them in the same manner we would do regarding our firearms.

We have had some totally lethal suggestions from the PTB on how this powder should be stored.In locked steel boxes or safes,bolted to the floor!!:eek::eek: IOW a potential huge bomb that is unmoveable by the fire dept if your house is ever on fire. I wont even bolt my ammo storage box to the wall for that very reason.[Of which the Super and CPO were happy enough with as well.]
Nothing like being advised and legislated by the unknowing.

Agreed, hunters might have a need for reloading, but would they fire a level of ammunition that would make the need for reloading essential or economic? Maybe a club /shared system would be better than loads of reloaders throughout the country, ensuring safe storage, supervision and safety?

So there is a nice central target to be hit with 10s or100s of kgs of powder and primers with all the cost of building powder magazines,alarms,HSE and Fire dept orders ,than possibly 100 of randomly dispersed loaders around the country with maybe a limit of a 1kg of powder per gun type that they reload,and the brass limit of their liscensed ammo permit???
TBH ,unless you are reloading for super accurate benchrest or have an obscure .Reloading wont be that much of a value for money or money saver in Ireland IMO.
Maybe back awhile ago,when the EU and international transport wasnt as good here,and it was a Hobsons choice on ammo .But now with daily continental runs,the net and online sales,how easy is it to order up a few thousand rounds from a EU dealerand have it shipped?

By the time you have bought the powder,heads,primers,shell casings,the tools etc,you are up into the hundreds,setting up all the equipment and complying no doubt with much new laws telling you what must be done,rather what can be done.. It will run into the thousands.
How much ammo could you buy in bulk for that,of a specific loading and store in your firearms dealer,and draw out as you need it???

Personally I dont need super accurate ammo.I know some folks out there do.But for what I need in hunting,and the odd flake at a bit of paper,factory ammo does me just fine.

tac foley

Dear Mr Grizzly 45 - I'd guess that reading your post would probably put off 90% of the budding reloaders in Ireland!

Let's just put a few things into perspective, and fully respecting your own personal POV that reloading is prolly not for you because of the small amounts of ammunition you would make not being cost-effective.

I agree with you. Shooting maybe a hundred rounds a year is not going to make you a keen reloader.

But target rifle shooters and many keen varminters and sporting shootersfire off many times more than that. I'm no great shakes in MY chosen area - 300m military match-type stuff - but I get through at least 5-600 x .308, 2-300 x 7.5x55 Swiss per year, even a hundred or more 7x57 in my Boer War Mauser carbine. Add to that probably well over a thousand rounds of .357Mag in the revolver - as well as the black powder rifle and handgun shooting that seems to occupy my time. I haven't even mentioned the nine .22 rifles that I shoot - plinking and fun stuff.

I don't buy a hundred kilos of propellant at a time, nor does anybody I know. Like most of us, I buy it by the can - ONE can at a time. True I buy primers by the thousand, but even that is a small container.

One for rifle, one for pistol and one for BP - I don't shoot the real BP, but a subsitute, BTW. It's cleaner, more economical and I get more shots per pound than with BP. AND I don't need a licence.

I started reloading back when Practical pstol was all the rage, and I would happily shoot around 800 or more rounds a WEEK. Try that without having reloading and you'll go bust pretty soon - unless, of course, you are one of the many Celtic Tigers we all hear about.

And just to make the point to all of you - I have been reloading safely since 1968 - at one time seven rifle and five handgun cartridges. Neither I nor anyone I know has ever had a mishap, and some of my pals are not the sharpest pencils in the box. I don't have a magazine or a purpose-built 'reloading shed' - I DO have an 8x6 shed in my backyard that I use for my steam trains as well as reloading, oh, and most of the backyard tools and a lawn-mower...

Last time I looked I had all my fingers and both my eyes.

I'm off shooting now. Talk to ya later.

tac

PS - apropos your comment about what you can buy in the US of A. In oregon you cannot buy fireworks - even sparklers - but if you are over 21 you CAN buy a case of dynamite [48 sticks]. But only one, mind.

Bananaman

As usual the garden path beckons

I, personally, would like for reloading to be an option - most likely I would be interested in a Co-op option where a group of people could share the costs in a club situation - in no way seeking to prevent individuals from having the option to have a press

I think, as reloading would be a somewhat new thing when authorized here training would be paramount - as many have said the NRA run some of the most popular courses - all over the world - and I am sure that instructors would not be long in being developed here should the need arise

I also think the types of people looking to reload should be taken into account

1) the perfectionist
lads looking to have consistent ammo when they need it - mostly fullbore rifle shooters but you will find this need in all forms of target shooting

2) the thrifty
those looking to lower the cost of ammo so they can afford to practice more - I would be in this bracket - as I think would the majority of people (including those in 1)

3) the hobbyist
those looking to reload because they need to - anecdotaly this is a decent percentage of reloaders in other jurisdictions - where they have a firearm chambered in either a rare or extinct calibre and would like to continue to use it

4) the curious
those that are not sure if they need or want to reload but will go out and buy all the equipment - make up a box or two of ammo once in a blue moon

I'm sure those are terrible generalizations on my part but the stand to differentiate between the needs of the various people who would like to see it as an option

anecdotally what happens in other jurisdictions will only be used as an example if it is in the form of restrictions

I am not aware of any consultation taking place with any groups that would be interested in the reloading process - except those involved in the creedmoor trial but that would be limited to a small subset of 1) and hence not really consultation

it would be interesting to know what the terms of reference for the new explosives materials act are to see whether or not they seek to facilitate reloading or whether they seek to prevent it

B'Man

Mr Mole

Hi Gents,
I feel my post was worthwhile to tease out opinion from the various shooters and disciplines. My own personal view on this topic, is that reloading can be done in Ireland as easily and as safely as in other countries. I have seen it done by friends /shooters in N.I and the USA, and there is neither mystery nor great danger to it. Personally, I wouldnt have the need, but the best of luck to anyone that has.

Bananaman

I think that is a factor that the PTB are not taking into account - as with CF pistols - they probably fear an 'opening of the floodgates' - however the reality, should it be authorized, may be more of a whimper than a roar

there is demand but there is not huge demand and authorizing it would not make Ireland a force to be reckoned with in the primer import business

B'Man

Vegeta

A lot of people here (who post on boards) would do it but that's because we probably tick a lot of the 1-4 boxes in B'Man's post above

There are about 35 people in my gun club and I'd say maybe 4 people would do it

Is there anything we can do as a group to help this move forward?

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Mr Mole wrote: »

...regulations on the safe storage of Explosives. Of course the trial is within the law.

Sigh.........

Nitro-cellulose smokeless powders of whatever type and formulation [single or double-based] used in reloading are internationally classed as propellants - NOT explosives. Even the label reads 'propellant' in whatever language applies. 'Savutonta Ruutia' in Finnish [smokeless powder], Triebstoff [propellant] in German, and so on....

IF they were explosives then you would not see the shelves in gun-stores stacked with the stuff on open display.

Black Powder - gunpowder - IS a Class 1 explosive and requires a licence in most countries.

When the 1875 Explosives Act was introduced there was no such thing as nitro-cellulose propellant of any kind - there was ONLY black powder/gun-powder - this is the reason why it is not mentioned in the Act.

I'll end my contribution to this thread by making a simple comment that I have been repeating to my fellow Irish shooters whenever the subject of reloading is mentioned - If you can be trusted by the authorities with one or more potentially lethal firearms, why can't you be trusted to make ammunition for it?

tac

johngalway

Vegeta wrote: »

Is there anything we can do as a group to help this move forward?

I'm going to drop my TD an email this evening, see what he has to say on the matter.

rrpc

johngalway wrote: »

I'm going to drop my TD an email this evening, see what he has to say on the matter.

I'm not sure that's a great idea. Some TD's may understand the issue and its importance to the shooting community but others may have a less sanguine approach to it. You don't have to travel very far to find them :rolleyes:

The new bill is in its formative stages and the trial for the Creedmore is needed to put all the myths and fears to rest. Pushing things at this stage when (from what I understand) there is an unholy pile of legislation clogging up the works may well have the reverse affect to what's intended.

If there's a willingness to facilitate the practice (and I can't interpret the Creedmore trial any other way) then there really seems to be no good reason to make a fuss at this point.

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

Dear Mr Grizzly 45 - I'd guess that reading your post would probably put off 90% of the budding reloaders in Ireland

!

Shalom Tac..Let me take a few points in here.
Not not meant to put off 90% of anyone,just put it a realistic perspective of finance.And from having a relative who reloads for obscure 7mm hunting rifles,who has gone thru the EU works, who is more tight fisted than the famous "Mac Goldbaum" clan of Scotland,[who invented copper wire,by a famous battle over a penny.:D]If he thinks it isnt worth it for commercial reasons of money saving then it certainly isnt.He shoots skeet semi pro BTW and wouldnt ever consider reloading a cartridge either.

Let's just put a few things into perspective, and fully respecting your own personal POV that reloading is prolly not for you because of the small amounts of ammunition you would make not being cost-effective.

I agree with you. Shooting maybe a hundred rounds a year is not going to make you a keen reloader.

Put it like this,if I was doing it,all I would need is a Lee handloader to work up maybe a specific load to try it out.But would I need a full reloading setup,I doubt it.

But target rifle shooters and many keen varminters and sporting shootersfire off many times more than that. I'm no great shakes in MY chosen area - 300m military match-type stuff - but I get through at least 5-600 x .308, 2-300 x 7.5x55 Swiss per year, even a hundred or more 7x57 in my Boer War Mauser carbine. Add to that probably well over a thousand rounds of .357Mag in the revolver - as well as the black powder rifle and handgun shooting that seems to occupy my time. I haven't even mentioned the nine .22 rifles that I shoot - plinking and fun stuff.

I don't buy a hundred kilos of propellant at a time, nor does anybody I know. Like most of us, I buy it by the can - ONE can at a time. True I buy primers by the thousand, but even that is a small container

Think you have taken a point out of context!I meant that if it is centralised,you could have 100okgs of powder stored in a club reloading magazine,not individuals buying it.
.

One for rifle, one for pistol and one for BP - I don't shoot the real BP, but a subsitute, BTW. It's cleaner, more economical and I get more shots per pound than with BP. AND I don't need a licence.

Pryodex???Good stuff that you have a choice to do this.WE cant even get pryodex here or its sucessors.

I started reloading back when Practical pstol was all the rage, and I would happily shoot around 800 or more rounds a WEEK. Try that without having reloading and you'll go bust pretty soon - unless, of course, you are one of the many Celtic Tigers we all hear about.

Belive it or not,I WAS starting into it here,until our minister,and police force and justice dept,conjoined their thinking and came up with it being "combat shooting training"and banned it,but left the option open for anyone to practise fully as much military manouvers as they like by using airsoft.Which obviously shows that no one has ever in these depts actually done any proper combat shooting in their lives ..As no one who has done either would claim that they are the same block of wood.:mad:
But we digress.
EVEN the top names in IPSC cant afford to reload ,from just the time factor and finance.Why do you think they have major firearm companies sponsoring them ,it is mostly ammo costs tha t is their budget.Same with top clay shooters,their ammo is a huge cost factor.
I still maintain you could buy 3200 rounds of 9mm [your months supply] of factory quality controlled ammo,for a lot less than it will cost to set up a reloading bench with the capabilities to reload that amount efficently here in Ireland.Maybe somone has and fair dues to them.But I still think it is an expensive proposition.

And just to make the point to all of you - I have been reloading safely since 1968 - at one time seven rifle and five handgun cartridges. Neither I nor anyone I know has ever had a mishap, and some of my pals are not the sharpest pencils in the box. I don't have a magazine or a purpose-built 'reloading shed' - I DO have an 8x6 shed in my backyard that I use for my steam trains as well as reloading, oh, and most of the backyard tools and a lawn-mower...
Last time I looked I had all my fingers and both my eyes.

Thats great and thats the way it should be.But as usual common sense being the most uncommon sense here,along with the inbuilt paranoia of "it might fall into criminal hands" will almost gaurentee we will have to be reloading in a bunker some place.:rolleyes:


I'm off shooting now. Talk to ya later.

tac
PS - apropos your comment about what you can buy in the US of A. In oregon you cannot buy fireworks - even sparklers - but if you are over 21 you CAN buy a case of dynamite [48 sticks]. But only one, mind.[/QUOTE

Great isnt it?:D.
Better bang on the 4th!
But you cant vote or go to a girlie bar or drink a beer until you are 21.But you can get married drive a car,and own a rifle /shotgun,be tried as an adult at 18,and go and play with million dollars worth of war machines in the desert of Iraq or ghanistan for Mom, God and Apple pie,but woe betide you bring ing back your personal handgun as a war souviner if you are under 21!:(
Only in America!:rolleyes:

Vegeta

rrpc wrote: »

If there's a willingness to facilitate the practice (and I can't interpret the Creedmore trial any other way) then there really seems to be no good reason to make a fuss at this point.

I do have a fear that it may be allowed but in a severely castrated way. Such as loading on target club grounds only.

Which would be no good for hunters or varminters.

I suppose my fear is this, speaking to our TDs now may indeed muddy the water and might even annoy people currently in discussion with the PTB. The people in these discussions are more than likely target shooters (Creedmore trial) and in their official capacities are not making respresentations on behalf of any hunters(nor would I ever expect them to)

Just afraid my primary interest group i.e. hunters and varminters will not be represented. I'm a greedy sod ya see

johngalway

I agree with Vegetas post. There was a line earlier that hunters may need some reloading, yeah, whatever. Because we don't shoot a million rounds a week doesn't lessen the importance of having an accurate round for our rifles. I share Veg's fear that it'll be limited to clubs. Sorry, but, if I had ever wanted to join a club I would have done so long ago, I don't and neither do I wish to be forced to join one to participate in reloading when the rest of the civilized world can do so individually.

The worst possible outcome in a semi allowable solution is this Irish solution to an Irish problem, like Veg said that it comes in but in a castrated way. It also highlights the ongoing serious divisions in the shooting, and I use the term loosely, "community". I'm alright Jack, but screw you other guys.

No thanks.

rrpc

johngalway wrote: »

I agree with Vegetas post. There was a line earlier that hunters may need some reloading, yeah, whatever. Because we don't shoot a million rounds a week doesn't lessen the importance of having an accurate round for our rifles. I share Veg's fear that it'll be limited to clubs. Sorry, but, if I had ever wanted to join a club I would have done so long ago, I don't and neither do I wish to be forced to join one to participate in reloading when the rest of the civilized world can do so individually.

The worst possible outcome in a semi allowable solution is this Irish solution to an Irish problem, like Veg said that it comes in but in a castrated way. It also highlights the ongoing serious divisions in the shooting, and I use the term loosely, "community". I'm alright Jack, but screw you other guys.

No thanks.

Not being a member of a club, you're jumping to a conclusion that's not sustainable in the real world.

Most clubs would not be in a position to store components on the club premises. Even though the clubs SI has a little section devoted to the security of the premises, this is only in the case of clubs that store club firearms on the premises. The greater majority of clubs would not do this.

As for your comment about divisions, quite frankly, you're the only one who seems to think there is one on this topic. Nobody would take the view you take or suggest as you seem to, that club members would want or even accept the solution you and Vegeta are alluding to.

Now perhaps I'm 'out of the loop' and someone has already suggested this approach, but I'm saying here and now that such a solution would be way down the list as far as I'm concerned.

Apart from the security aspect, it would be highly impractical when you consider the number of different calibres, powders, heads, primers etc. that would have to be stored and allocated.

A complete nightmare in fact :rolleyes:

tac foley

Shalom Tac..Let me take a few points in here.
Not not meant to put off 90% of anyone,just put it a realistic perspective of finance.And from having a relative who reloads for obscure 7mm hunting rifles,who has gone thru the EU works, who is more tight fisted than the famous "Mac Goldbaum" clan of Scotland,[who invented copper wire,by a famous battle over a penny.:D]If he thinks it isnt worth it for commercial reasons of money saving then it certainly isnt.

As I noted, I can make my own equivalent of Lapua Match .308 Win for 28% of the commercial cost. I can also do it to suit two totally different rifles.

I can make 7x57 Mauser for 33% of the commercial cost - to suit both my ancient Mausers, neither of which care for modern-shaped spitzer-style bullets.

I can reload .357Mag revolver ammunition for 25% of the commercial cost, to the level of performance that suits the 14" barrel of my particular revolver.

7.5x55 Swiss is actually cheaper to buy as milsurp, simply because duplicating the original load needs an expensive bullet and comparatively large propellant load by comparison with other .308 diameter bullets, modern designs having only recently caught up with the Swiss design of 1911.

He shoots skeet semi pro BTW and wouldnt ever consider reloading a cartridge either.

I don't know anybody who reloads shotgun cartridges, but then, most semi-profis get a substantial discount, those that actually PAY for ammunition, that is.

Put it like this,if I was doing it,all I would need is a Lee handloader to work up maybe a specific load to try it out.But would I need a full reloading setup,I doubt it.

A Lee handloader is great - it's the way I started out and it gave me a great grip.

Think you have taken a point out of context!I meant that if it is centralised,you could have 100okgs of powder stored in a club reloading magazine,not individuals buying it.

Well, I shoot in Canada, two states of the USA and over here, and I've never heard of such a thing as a club reloading magazine - where on earth has THAT idea come from?

I'd like to belabour the point that in all my years on this planet I have never heard of ANY gun store being broken into to steal either propellant or other ammunition components - criminals buy their ammunition by the ton on the black market and import it under the noses of the Gardai in Dun Laoghaire and Dublin and anyplace else they fancy. The likes of the 'Aud' don't even figure on the ilegal arms market...

Pryodex???Good stuff that you have a choice to do this.WE cant even get pryodex here or its sucessors.

SOME of you must get black powder, or else there would be no historical re-enactment. And of course, Pyrodex, Triple 7 or Clean-shot are propellants - and right now, you don't get propellants. Shame, that. BP shooting is great fun, especially out at the longer ranges with a good match rifle - 800, 900, 1000 and 1200 yards or so....

EVEN the top names in IPSC cant afford to reload ,from just the time factor and finance.Why do you think they have major firearm companies sponsoring them ,it is mostly ammo costs tha t is their budget.Same with top clay shooters,their ammo is a huge cost factor.

Not met any 'top name' shooters of any kind who pay for their own ammunition.

I still maintain you could buy 3200 rounds of 9mm [your months supply] of factory quality controlled ammo,for a lot less than it will cost to set up a reloading bench with the capabilities to reload that amount efficently here in Ireland.Maybe somone has and fair dues to them.But I still think it is an expensive proposition.

We shared a VERY expensive [for us - for you guys over there it would be feed-chicken] Dillon electric progressive press, and after about three months, with five of us shooting .38 Spec and 9mm Para, it had paid for itself and we were on the 'winning' side. We were not 'top class' shooters of any kind, just ordinary joes in an average gun club. Over here, if you want anything done, you have to do it yourself. Like the man said, if you want to fly like an eagle, don't dress like a turkey - if you can't afford to do it in the first place, don't bitch about not being able to afford it. Nobody ever said that IPSC-style shooting was made with paupers in mind. The same goes for F-TR, clay shooting or any other sport where there are dues to pay and expensive tools to play with.

tac

Vegeta

rrpc wrote: »

As for your comment about divisions, quite frankly, you're the only one who seems to think there is one on this topic. Nobody would take the view you take or suggest as you seem to, that club members would want or even accept the solution you and Vegeta are alluding to.

Now perhaps I'm 'out of the loop' and someone has already suggested this approach, but I'm saying here and now that such a solution would be way down the list as far as I'm concerned.

I am not saying this division exists at all rrpc, I don't even think it exists and I agree it makes no sense for ranges to store this kit as many are not suited to the task.

I can just see the DoJ or whoever going "Ok we don't like the look of reloading, the thought of people storing powder in their own home scares us"

And some committee member who lives 2 minutes from the range answers back with "How about just allowing it on approved range premises then"

And then a law was born

I want to reload and I have 3 options I think
1: Do nothing and hope that whoever is speaking with the PTB will represent my interests, even when faced with less than ideal feedback
2:Contact the NARGC and ask for an update and hope they are in the loop on this discussion
3:Act on my own

Not sure which I'll do yet as I agree rocking the boat my be more damaging than helpful

This politics stuff is not to my liking

bunny shooter

Vegeta wrote: »

......This politics stuff is not to my liking

+1

johngalway

rrpc wrote: »

Not being a member of a club, you're jumping to a conclusion that's not sustainable in the real world.

Most clubs would not be in a position to store components on the club premises. Even though the clubs SI has a little section devoted to the security of the premises, this is only in the case of clubs that store club firearms on the premises. The greater majority of clubs would not do this.

As for your comment about divisions, quite frankly, you're the only one who seems to think there is one on this topic. Nobody would take the view you take or suggest as you seem to, that club members would want or even accept the solution you and Vegeta are alluding to.

Now perhaps I'm 'out of the loop' and someone has already suggested this approach, but I'm saying here and now that such a solution would be way down the list as far as I'm concerned.

Apart from the security aspect, it would be highly impractical when you consider the number of different calibres, powders, heads, primers etc. that would have to be stored and allocated.

A complete nightmare in fact :rolleyes:

So, you're saying should reloading for clubs be permitted in the future that clubs would not take it up as it would omit other shooters?

I agree storing components on club property would be a nightmare, but when has practicality or common sense prevailed in the realm of the PTB?