First they spend 40k on a wordpress website, now this, what planet are these on

ninty9er · 09-08-2010 01:16AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well, ninty9er ? Any comment to make on that ?

Sounds like a SERIOUSLY extravagant spend to me on personal time (which therefore shouldn't have been booked by a public servant).

Not to mention the fact that it's defrauding the taxpayer by getting us to pay for it.

By all means, take a day or two off when abroad for work in order to see the local sights (I did a few years back when work sent me to Toronto) but I paid for the trip to Niagara Falls on the bus myself, and rightly so.

Example.

This weekend I had work and personal plans.

I travelled to Dublin on Wednesday night, booked into a hotel on the work credit card, and have claimed mileage for a return journey.

In the meantime, I spent Thursday night at a friend's house, beginning my private plans on Friday morning, I did a bit of moving around dublin, travelled to Belfast on Friday afternoon, spent Friday there at my own expense and came to Dublin today and then home this evening.

Irrespective of whether or not it was personal or private, I still had to go to Dublin for work, I would have had to make the return journey anyway, so I claim return mileage, this is no different.

Who paid for the hotel? All we know is it wasn't the taxpayer, if the minister and his wife were returning to an airport to fly back to Dublin, there would have been a "limosine" charge anyway.

If people concentrated on real issues and didn't get caught up in irrelevant minutae, politicians might be able to take criticism seriously when it actually matters. Instead we have politicians who are deaf to criticism because absolutely everything they do from 5am on Monday to 11pm on Sunday is criticised by somebody somewhere.

Pick your battles, this isn't even a cat fight.

On the flights, the cost is unusually high, but that is a premium travel time. I have no problem with people travelling business class on business to the US, but short haul flights by government ministers are generally on Ryanair, which is barely economy. If he was staying for a holiday, he should have and possibly did pay a contribution to the flights personally.

Sponge Bob · 09-08-2010 02:37AM

ninty9er wrote: »

If people concentrated on real issues and didn't get caught up in irrelevant minutae, politicians might be able to take criticism seriously when it actually matters.

We even have a video of Dempseys hotel room :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj9W4bGVB9o

maninasia · 09-08-2010 09:00AM

Welease wrote: »

Is there a breakdown of what the 40K was spent on?

Without this, then people are just shooting in the dark, and most seem to be assuming the worse..

For a simple site it's excessive..
For a site, with training/documentation included, so the staff who will be responsible for maintaining and uploading information into the site going forward it's not too bad..
For a site, with the above, and consultancy into what type of site was needed before development, where the information should be gathered from, design including photographs. etc etc etc that is a decent price...

The site itself might be the end result of 6 months of work, in which case it's damn cheap..

It's not cheap whichever way you look at it, should be paid to do the job,not care how much work the contractor had to put into it. Uploading videos and text is a piece of p#ss with Wordpress. It may be the going rate however in Ireland...which wouldn't be surprising considering how broke the govt is. As for the site, it's well put together, just overpaid..for a govt with the biggest debt in Europe per head...that's a serious matter. I'd say 20,000 would have been very generous for this...40,000, get out of here!

Welease · 09-08-2010 09:51AM

maninasia wrote: »

It's not cheap whichever way you look at it, should be paid to do the job,not care how much work the contractor had to put into it. Uploading videos and text is a piece of p#ss with Wordpress. It may be the going rate however in Ireland...which wouldn't be surprising considering how broke the govt is. As for the site, it's well put together, just overpaid..for a govt with the biggest debt in Europe per head...that's a serious matter. I'd say 20,000 would have been very generous for this...40,000, get out of here!

You are missing point.. Until you know what the 40K covered, you or I are not in a position to conclusively decide on whether it was value for money..

The outcome of the project was a web site, but that may not have been the full extent of the work undertaken. There could have been extensive consultancy on the current communication methods utilised by the government, a plan created to reduce the channels used, development of procedures and training for all personnel involved in those communication channels, technical training for the IT staff involved in supporting the sites. documentation for all the above processes and technical implementations etc etc etc..

Or they could have snagged a wordpress template, put up a few stock photo's and been done in 2 days...

I suspect the government probably did overpay, but I prefer not to become part of a lynch mob until I actually have some of the finer details to hand..

ei.sdraob · 09-08-2010 10:00AM

Here we are arguing about a waste of

40,000

when our yearly deficit will approach

20,000,000,000

and out national debt is up to

120,000,000,000 with a 36% GDP defict in Q1 2010 says eurostat

may i recommend people look outside the box at the Croagh Patrick sized mountain of debt that's growing rapidly

paddyland · 09-08-2010 10:35AM

ninty9er wrote: »

If people concentrated on real issues and didn't get caught up in irrelevant minutae, politicians might be able to take criticism seriously when it actually matters. Instead we have politicians who are deaf to criticism because absolutely everything they do from 5am on Monday to 11pm on Sunday is criticised by somebody somewhere.

If people concentrated on real issues and didn't get caught up in minutae, we wouldn't criticise ministers, and they could get on with the daily work of robbing the tax coffers blind, and sticking two fingers up to the taxpayers who are being RAPED by this FF government to pay for the mistakes of their rotten and corrupt cronies.

Oh no, you won't get off with that one. Minister Dempsey is every bit as bad as and worse than O'Donoghue, and deserves to be hounded every minute of the day until he resigns or is sacked, neither of which will happen if down to FF alone. On the one hand, he has ruined people in this state who are living destitute due to the policies of him and his department, while he raids the coffers for personal extravagance.

People have committed SUICIDE because of the actions of this WASTER in government. He has blood on his hands, while he swans off to London in sheer extravagance, like Nero gorging on wine and red meat after watching the slaves butcher each other in the amphitheatre.

Hard as it is for you to stomach, there are too many people in this state who are sick and tired of this NONSENSE, and will not let these issues go away any longer.

Laminations · 09-08-2010 10:46AM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Here we are arguing about a waste of

40,000

when our yearly deficit will approach

20,000,000,000

and out national debt is up to

120,000,000,000 with a 36% GDP defict in Q1 2010 says eurostat

may i recommend people look outside the box at the Croagh Patrick sized mountain of debt that's growing rapidly

Completely agree but when you can't convince blowhard FFers of obvious waste on a personal/ministerial level then do you really expect them to take their heads from the sand regarding FFs ineptitude on larger scales?

thebman · 09-08-2010 12:12PM

ninty9er wrote: »

Example.

If people concentrated on real issues and didn't get caught up in irrelevant minutae, politicians might be able to take criticism seriously when it actually matters. Instead we have politicians who are deaf to criticism because absolutely everything they do from 5am on Monday to 11pm on Sunday is criticised by somebody somewhere.

I shall put in some irregular expenses to my employer and try this line.

I shall say this is FF best practice and see how far I get :pac:

Liam Byrne · 09-08-2010 02:47PM

ninty9er wrote: »

Example.

This weekend I had work and personal plans.

I travelled to Dublin on Wednesday night, booked into a hotel on the work credit card, and have claimed mileage for a return journey.

In the meantime, I spent Thursday night at a friend's house, beginning my private plans on Friday morning, I did a bit of moving around dublin, travelled to Belfast on Friday afternoon, spent Friday there at my own expense and came to Dublin today and then home this evening.

And you're completely missing the blatantly obvious correlation.

Did you charge your employer a couple of grand for a limo to go from the workplace in Dublin to the friend's house ?

ninty9er wrote: »

Irrespective of whether or not it was personal or private, I still had to go to Dublin for work, I would have had to make the return journey anyway, so I claim return mileage, this is no different.

You completely and utterly avoided the point. As in my example, the flight home from Canada was paid for by work, as was your return mileage. So you're arguing a point that I didn't even make in order to suit your argument.

The ONLY parallel is : did you charge your employer for the limo from the workplace to the friend's house ?

Unless you want to answer that, don't bother replying and muddying the waters.

ninty9er wrote: »

If people concentrated on real issues and didn't get caught up in irrelevant minutae, politicians might be able to take criticism seriously when it actually matters. Instead we have politicians who are deaf to criticism because absolutely everything they do from 5am on Monday to 11pm on Sunday is criticised by somebody somewhere.

If politicians concentrated on real issues and didn't spend their time forging invoices and making bogus claims then maybe they'd have more time to spend on actual issues.

If behaviour is unacceptable, then it's criticised. If everything they do is criticised, maybe they should look at their actions or reconsider their career where the taxpayer isn't footing the bill and isn't walloped left, right and centre as a result of their unacceptable actions and incompetence.

aidanodr · 09-08-2010 04:11PM

Heres a link to the original RFP ( Request for Proposals ) for this website:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34202910/Government-News-Website-RFP-Final

The services under this contract will include:

• Design of the website and associated accessible HTML templates
• Building the website according to the agreed design specifications
• Installation and commissioning of solution
• Provision of software maintenance and solution support including the associated templates, plug-ins etc
• Provision of solution documentation
• Provision of solution training and handover to Department personnel

Nothing major extra there thats any different for a site being developed for any client?

RE this training thing - What training is there? How to enter data in the TINYMCE Word like editor window? How to click the add images button? How to switch a pre installed template? Their should not be much interaction on behalf of Department personnel with the installed Plugins. If their is it wouldnt be very complex - a few fields to fill in and the like. I cannot see days of training involved here, maybe an hour or two at most?

Further down it says -

• Design of a Government News Website and associated standards-based accessible CSS and HTML templates (which should include a full range of heading, link and other styles for pages of various types (subscription service for e-mail and SMS alerts, rss feeds, printer friendly option etc.)

The "Standards" are usually "built in" with Wordpress as a solution?

On pages 8/9 all the required detail seems to be implementable via plugins available free with WP anyway. Same for Page 10 - this is just a description of what most CMSes do anyway??

Page 11 is maybe where the main cost lies - Maintenance and Support - over a year or more?

Aidan

aidanodr · 09-08-2010 05:45PM

Another two valid point was made here:

http://www.irishwebmasterforum.com/general-chat/11733-merrionstreet-ie-excessive-costs.html

1. Was a single unemployed project-manager, website designer/developer ... or anyone with a similar or useful skill set taken off the live register for this?
2. Was the option given to any media/multimedia students from our many colleges/courses to get involved? This would have had numerous mutual benefits.

aidan

maninasia · 10-08-2010 05:58AM

Welease wrote: »

You are missing point.. Until you know what the 40K covered, you or I are not in a position to conclusively decide on whether it was value for money..

The outcome of the project was a web site, but that may not have been the full extent of the work undertaken. There could have been extensive consultancy on the current communication methods utilised by the government, a plan created to reduce the channels used, development of procedures and training for all personnel involved in those communication channels, technical training for the IT staff involved in supporting the sites. documentation for all the above processes and technical implementations etc etc etc..

Or they could have snagged a wordpress template, put up a few stock photo's and been done in 2 days...

I suspect the government probably did overpay, but I prefer not to become part of a lynch mob until I actually have some of the finer details to hand..

I have operated a web design firm previously, as does the poster Aidan here. We know what we are talking about. Notice our agreement on overpayment? Remember I was being generous when I said maybe 20,000 euro is acceptable with training/help with design (training taking a few hours on what is a very simple input system to use, design process is more costly and time consuming), but I would have quoted this site for 10,000 euro no questions as would tonnes of web design firms for private companies...but government overpays and it's who you know right? They should have quoted it to a foreign firm but maybe government procurement rules prevent this.

It's a wordpress site..amateurs can easily put together sites to 70-80% of that standard.

Liam Byrne · 10-08-2010 10:37AM

maninasia wrote: »

I have operated a web design firm previously, as does the poster Aidan here. We know what we are talking about. Notice our agreement on overpayment? Remember I was being generous when I said maybe 20,000 euro is acceptable with training/help with design (training taking a few hours on what is a very simple input system to use, design process is more costly and time consuming), but I would have quoted this site for 10,000 euro no questions as would tonnes of web design firms for private companies

Is it a coincidence that that figure came to mind when I looked at it too, and that's with a similar background to Aidan & Maninasia ?

And that's covering a lot of backend possibilities, not just the site itself.

Consultation for requirements = €1,000 (even though many clients don't even pay for this stage)
Core site = approx €3,000
Training €1,000
Hosting = under €500
Allowance for complex backend stuff €4,500

There would want to be something absolutely phenomenal and unusual behind-the-scenes in order to justify a base cost of anything more than €10,000 - so yes, €20,000 is more than generous, particularly considering the normal server load issues - like the videos - aren't even hosted on the site - they're hosted on YouTube!

So 3 web professionals reckon €10K is fair, and €20K is happy days, covering us for any hoops we'd need to jump through to get a government contract ?

And the government still paid €40K ?

The Corinthian · 10-08-2010 10:41AM

aidanodr wrote: »

Out in the real world you would be lucky to get €1200 - €2000 for this.

When dealing with the private sector or SME's you mean.

I'm not going to defend such expenditure, but I will try to explain why it is so bloated.

To begin with you're dealing with the civil service and they, rather than the politicians who rubber stamp such procurement, are a large part of the problem. Any project with a large, bureaucratic body (be it a government department, large semi-state body, bank or multinational) is going to be a project management nightmare, and that and not the design, development or anything else is going to bloat your price.

This is because you are dealing with internal politics, people who will rarely make decisions unless you take responsibility for them and countless committees who all want to empire build and do everything by the book. For example, you will not be designing the logo. That job will go to another company that specializes in logo design and branding - this means that the responsibility has gone to 'professionals' to effectively cover this, thus showing that all due care was taken (i.e. if it screws up the person commissioning the work did all they could do, and so is covered). So other than adding another layer of stakeholders to the pot, the process of designing and agreeing upon the logo will probably involve numerous meetings and revisions before something is delivered. Three months if you're lucky, and that alone will cost thousands.

Then on the client's side, your point of contact will change a few times due to internal politics. Often when there's a change they'll want to start over or demand to revise any requirements, even though you've already signed off on them. And signing off on anything will take ten times as long, because no one wants the responsibility of making a decision. Indeed, they probably won't decide - a consultant from one of the blue chips, hired to shadow them, will.

Then, with large company departments or public bodies, there is the budget question. They have money to burn. If they don't they will get less next year. That's why around November and December you should target B2G sales - it's when they're looking at their budget and realizing they still have money left to get rid of before the end of the fiscal year. A PO or invoice is all they care about - delivery of whatever crap you've sold them is something to worry about next year.

And all this is before you get into incompetence, indolence and corruption. And, of course, SLA's - they're real milk cows.

So, it's not really to do with Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, or politics. It's just the nature of such large organizations - even in the private sector.

So when you think about it, €40k is a bargain.

Nijmegen · 10-08-2010 10:46AM

I should note that any business person you speak to who sells to government can relate the story that the public sector over pays.

I heard an anecdote from a manager who sells hardware. A person from Fingal called up one day looking for a particular part, and said he had €1,500 to spend on it. They checked, and the price of the part was €800. But they charged him €1,500 because, well, that's the price the customer said he wanted to pay!

You can't blame the business for taking advantage of that kind of stupidity.

Similarly for the travel expenses, there's always a cheaper way to do things. If he needed the jet for urgent business, fine. But why do all these goons need to ride around in limos?

Head The Wall · 10-08-2010 12:31PM

Corinthian - I know that's how these things get done in the PS but that still doesn't mean we should accept it. There is a lot more accountability and financial querying in a large private sector company than the PS so your comparison is a bit off

Room to Improve springs to mind in these situations. In the last series the financial controller for Kildare Co Co (I think) was getting work done on his house. He had to drop in that he was responsible for a budget of around €150m, it sounded like he was bragging about how large his budget was and the bigger the budget the better a man he was. It just sounded stink to me.

The same fella didn't like what Dermot was telling him he had to do. He was really grasping and struggling with not getting his own way and hearing the word no. He couldn't visualise what Dermot was trying to do and didn't want to let control go just cos he was too thick to see the vision. It's an interesting episode to watch just on the sociology side

The Corinthian · 10-08-2010 12:50PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Corinthian - I know that's how these things get done in the PS but that still doesn't mean we should accept it.

I never said we should, as you will see from the start of my post I said I was not going to defend such expenditure, simply explain it.

There is a lot more accountability and financial querying in a large private sector company than the PS so your comparison is a bit off

I disagree about what you say with the private sector. In 2001 (post-dotcom) a consultancy spin-off of a major consultancy firm (it went chapter 11 but has subsequently re-founded, so I won't name it) commissioned from my employer a brochureware site - basic CMS, a WAP micro-site and some flash banners. It took over a year to go live and went well over the original estimate, due to changes of mind, points of contact and other bureaucratic silliness. I can't remember what the final bill was, but the original quote was Irl£145k. I've also witnessed other examples in the private sector, in particular with the mobile telecoms.

Certainly the public sector has even fewer safeguards, but ultimately this is what happens when any organization becomes large and unwieldy, and it is very difficult to avoid, indeed I suspect it cannot be fully avoided, only minimized at best - even in the private sector.

Scofflaw · 10-08-2010 02:44PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

I never said we should, as you will see from the start of my post I said I was not going to defend such expenditure, simply explain it.

I disagree about what you say with the private sector. In 2001 (post-dotcom) a consultancy spin-off of a major consultancy firm (it went chapter 11 but has subsequently re-founded, so I won't name it) commissioned from my employer a brochureware site - basic CMS, a WAP micro-site and some flash banners. It took over a year to go live and went well over the original estimate, due to changes of mind, points of contact and other bureaucratic silliness. I can't remember what the final bill was, but the original quote was Irl£145k. I've also witnessed other examples in the private sector, in particular with the mobile telecoms.

Certainly the public sector has even fewer safeguards, but ultimately this is what happens when any organization becomes large and unwieldy, and it is very difficult to avoid, indeed I suspect it cannot be fully avoided, only minimized at best - even in the private sector.

That agrees entirely with my experience. It's true that the public sector gets a bit more ripped off, but that's at least partly because every bidder pads their quote when it's a public sector contract.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nijmegen · 10-08-2010 02:53PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

That agrees entirely with my experience. It's true that the public sector gets a bit more ripped off, but that's at least partly because every bidder pads their quote when it's a public sector contract.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Even when receiving quotes from multiple sources, I'll always negotiate each individual bidder until we're both blue in the face. There's always further to cut to the bone.

The Corinthian · 10-08-2010 03:08PM

Nijmegen wrote: »

Even when receiving quotes from multiple sources, I'll always negotiate each individual bidder until we're both blue in the face. There's always further to cut to the bone.

What is your incentive to get the best price?

What incentives do civil servants or (mega)corporate cogs have?

percy212 · 10-08-2010 03:46PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

That agrees entirely with my experience. It's true that the public sector gets a bit more ripped off, but that's at least partly because every bidder pads their quote when it's a public sector contract.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I agree with Corinthian and Scofflaw. There was no doubt a lot more to the project than simply building the site. When you deal with public sector, they often don't know what they want. It takes a loooong time to establish goals, and longer still to get agreement on them. Pad for ego stroking, and tantrum time. Projects are very often reworked or dropped for long periods of time. I am surprised it only cost 40k. I have been on the purchasing side of public sector, and to be honest, it seems well within the range of reason for a functioning piece of software, open source or not. I am CERTAIN that other responses to the RFP would have been for a lot more. Public sector jobs are tough. You earn your money. I say this as a past customer, not vendor.

percy212 · 10-08-2010 03:51PM

Nijmegen wrote: »

I should note that any business person you speak to who sells to government can relate the story that the public sector over pays.

I heard an anecdote from a manager who sells hardware. A person from Fingal called up one day looking for a particular part, and said he had €1,500 to spend on it. They checked, and the price of the part was €800. But they charged him €1,500 because, well, that's the price the customer said he wanted to pay!

You can't blame the business for taking advantage of that kind of stupidity.

Similarly for the travel expenses, there's always a cheaper way to do things. If he needed the jet for urgent business, fine. But why do all these goons need to ride around in limos?

I think that hardware manager was out of order. A piece of hardware is a known quantity, and has a fixed price. He ripped the customer off for no good reason. Unless he (wrongly) personally pocketed the difference I can't even understand his motivation. Thats the kind of ass that needs to be put out of business.

percy212 · 10-08-2010 03:57PM

Nijmegen wrote: »

Even when receiving quotes from multiple sources, I'll always negotiate each individual bidder until we're both blue in the face. There's always further to cut to the bone.

You must have a lot of time on your hands. Why would you waste a vendors time with negotiation, when you know you already have a better offer from another vendor. You have to respect your vendors. These are business relationships. Its not like buying a pint of milk.

Head The Wall · 10-08-2010 04:02PM

percy212 wrote: »

I agree with Corinthian and Scofflaw. There was no doubt a lot more to the project than simply building the site. When you deal with public sector, they often don't know what they want. It takes a loooong time to establish goals, and longer still to get agreement on them. Pad for ego stroking, and tantrum time. Projects are very often reworked or dropped for long periods of time. I am surprised it only cost 40k. I have been on the purchasing side of public sector, and to be honest, it seems well within the range of reason for a functioning piece of software, open source or not. I am CERTAIN that other responses to the RFP would have been for a lot more. Public sector jobs are tough. You earn your money. I say this as a past customer, not vendor.

I thought we had such highly qualified people in the PS with their degree's and what you're saying is that they are invariably crap at their job and don't give a shít about value for money.

That sounds about right

aidanodr · 10-08-2010 04:05PM

From what I can gather from reading last few posts is that one will never get a good for value public service for two reasons:

1. OPM - they spend "other peoples money" so couldnt give a rats a**
2. Take no responsibility / Cover your ass at all costs

Apply both these to this sites development costs and thats why you end up with it costing AT LEAST €40k ..

In other wise the mantra - NO ONE EVER GOT FIRED FOR BUYING ________ ! ( eg IBM, HP ) - still rules and always will! This in turn stifles any prospect of new ideas and innovation of any kind? A bit disheartening and a shame we have just to accept it ...

And as a side comment - the mentality which is the two points above probably bleeds out into society in general and peoples personal lives also?

Aidan

The Corinthian · 10-08-2010 04:06PM

percy212 wrote: »

You must have a lot of time on your hands. Why would you waste a vendors time with negotiation, when you know you already have a better offer from another vendor. You have to respect your vendors. These are business relationships. Its not like buying a pint of milk.

You haggle when buying a pint of milk?

Head The Wall wrote: »

I thought we had such highly qualified people in the PS with their degree's and what you're saying is that they are invariably crap at their job and don't give a shít about value for money.

I don't think you've been listening to what people have said.

Head The Wall · 10-08-2010 04:18PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

You haggle when buying a pint of milk?

I don't think you've been listening to what people have said.

I know exactly whats going on, I was just being facetious.

I just find it hard to comprehend the people in these positions that have a job but are essentially afraid to do their job, that can't be rewarding in any way whatsoever. It's definitely not an environment that advocates ingenuity unless it's to further yourself to a level you shouldn't be at.

I'd be on tablets if I was to work in that kind of an environment

Scofflaw · 10-08-2010 04:19PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

What is your incentive to get the best price?

What incentives do civil servants or (mega)corporate cogs have?

The desire not to be ripped off and cheated is quite strong even in the absence of more formal incentives.

Also it can depend on whether the funding is 'complete' (in other words, the whole project funding is being spent in this tender) or whether this is one item allocated out of an overall budget.

In a sense, project-based funding is often an incentive to wastefulness.

cordially,
Scofflaw

percy212 · 11-08-2010 03:31AM

Wow. There are a lot of angry people on this thread. If you don't like what your government spends its money on, call your senator. If you want to effect change in government machinations and the politics around projects, you should get involved.

As for the price of having a site built, well, I know cheaper places than Ireland.

maninasia · 11-08-2010 03:53AM

percy212 wrote: »

You must have a lot of time on your hands. Why would you waste a vendors time with negotiation, when you know you already have a better offer from another vendor. You have to respect your vendors. These are business relationships. Its not like buying a pint of milk.

I hope you are not involved in purchasing, you would be fired from any company I know! Every public worker should be partly incentivised to save budget, not spend budget. La-la land.

It's well know government contracts pay more, but that's not because they are inherently more difficult than a contract for private business..they are not.

It's because they don't 'really' care about the cost as much as the convenience and if it sits somewhere within their budget range. Covering your ass is the most important thing in the public sector.

They also guarantee payment although can be slow to pay sometimes.

First they spend 40k on a wordpress website, now this, what planet are these on

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