Roundabout - who's at fault?

CiniO · 09-08-2010 12:28AM

ferguson wrote: »

. And never change lane without checking first then indicating.

I wouldn't agree 100% with this.
Why would you first check, then indicate?
Indicators, are to show other road users what you are planning to do.
If you are planning to leave roundabout, the first thing should be to indicate, then you should make sure it's safe to do so, and the just do it.

I can see that lot's of Irish drivers are just afraid of indicators.
For example while overtaking.
Let's say someone drives behind a truck and plans to overtake it. He will check if there is enough space, make sure, and then usually he turns the indicator, and start overtaking at the same time. That's nonsence - what's the indication for then, if it's already obvious that he's overtaking.
Correct should be, to put indicator, make sure it's safe to overtake, and then do it.
Otherwise someone from behind might start overtaking before.

sesna · 09-08-2010 12:41AM

At a glance inner/outer orbital makes more sense to me than offside and nearside.

Aside from that, what the hell is the story with the worst roundabout in Dublin - Walkinstown roundabout. There are 3 lanes orbiting it and far too many exits (not to mention a lack of sign posts also).

Also hate that roundabout at the Galway Shopping Centre on the Headford in Galway. Traffic lights everywhere, and it's not very clear if they are for the drivers on the roundabout or for those waiting to come onto the roundabout because of the ambiguous angle they face.

CiniO · 09-08-2010 12:47AM

sesna wrote: »

Also hate that roundabout at the Galway Shopping Centre on the Headford in Galway. Traffic lights everywhere, and it's not very clear if they are for the drivers on the roundabout or for those waiting to come onto the roundabout because of the ambiguous angle they face.

When I first started driving in Ireland, I landed on that roundabout.
In my opinion it was absolutely crazy about traffic lights and lanes. Someone who drives there for a first time, get absolutely confused.
I drove in most European big cities before, but never seen anything that confusing as Bodkins roundabout in Galway.

sesna · 09-08-2010 12:56AM

CiniO wrote: »

When I first started driving in Ireland, I landed on that roundabout.
In my opinion it was absolutely crazy about traffic lights and lanes. Someone who drives there for a first time, get absolutely confused.
I drove in most European big cities before, but never seen anything that confusing as Bodkins roundabout in Galway.

Have seen a few collisions there over the past few years because of drivers unintentionally braking red lights they did not realise were for them. Its a horrible design.

djimi · 09-08-2010 09:38AM

CiniO wrote: »

Yeah, everything nice, but what to do, when it's imposible to check your blind spots? F.E you are driving truck or bus. In these vehicles, what you can see in the mirror is everything you can see. Anything else you have to assume.

But you werent driving a bus or a truck were you? I dont know about driving buses or trucks, Ive never driven one, but Im sure they have their own procedures for combatting blind spots, but in cars you check over your shoulder to your blindspot before changing lanes. Always.

sbsquarepants · 09-08-2010 10:10AM

Exact same thing happened to me about 5 years ago, other guys insurance paid up no problem whatsover. However he was decent and admited liability, there are plenty out there that would insist they came on from another junction and were taking the first exit or whatever.
Technicaly the op is in the right, but the insurance will decide on whatever is most cost effective and nothing else, if she starts spoofing you could be in 50/50 territory unfortunately.

Max Power1 · 09-08-2010 10:14AM

Reloc8 wrote: »

To be more precise, you can of course be prosecuted for behaviour which is a breach of the rules of the road, but not because it is contrary to the rules of the road, rather, because it is also contrary to the Road Traffic Acts.

.

Exactly. You will NEVER be convicted under the ROTR, they are not a statutory instrument.

Reloc8 · 09-08-2010 10:30AM

CiniO wrote: »

I wouldn't agree 100% with this.
Why would you first check, then indicate?
Indicators, are to show other road users what you are planning to do.
If you are planning to leave roundabout, the first thing should be to indicate, then you should make sure it's safe to do so, and the just do it.
...

Is that a serious question ??

You check first to ensure your intended move is safe and to get a picture for what is around you. If your move isn't safe, you don't indicate.

Otherwise you run the risk of causing a sudden and possibly bad/dangerous reaction from another driver who you havn't seen who thinks 'bugger that guy hasn't seen me and is going to cut me up'.

It has the potential to cause accidents.

Vladidim · 09-08-2010 10:51AM

My philosophy for entering roundabouts is to drop it into second gear, floor it as quick as I can. That way, I dont need to worry about some old bag driving in my blind spot in the wrong lane, as I have long left her behind.

Cookie_Monster · 09-08-2010 10:55AM

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Also, no one has an answer to the 3 exit roundabout above? (legal)

not legal but for me, I'd stay in the left hand lane for that. There are some however with "dead" exits which I would use the right hand lane. Such as coming from here to here. Point B is a closed off "dead" exit.

More annoying are those roundabouts where the third exit is before 12, so you have much less space to avoid the idiots as you come from the right hand to left hand to take the exit. Glenageary roundabout is the perfect example of this, coming from Dun Laoghaire to go up to The Graduate roundabout. is the 3rd exit, but most people fail to see the shops exit as one and use the left hand lane

djimi · 09-08-2010 11:03AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not legal but for me, I'd stay in the left hand lane for that. There are some however with "dead" exits which I would use the right hand lane. Such as coming from here to here. Point B is a closed off "dead" exit.

More annoying are those roundabouts where the third exit is before 12, so you have much less space to avoid the idiots as you come from the right hand to left hand to take the exit. Glenageary roundabout is the perfect example of this, coming from Dun Laoghaire to go up to The Graduate roundabout. is the 3rd exit, but most people fail to see the shops exit as one and use the left hand lane

Id say left as well. Isnt the rule that you stay in the left hand lane for first and second exits and the right hand lane for third and subsequent exits?

Jimmy Bottlehead · 09-08-2010 11:38AM

sesna wrote: »

Aside from that, what the hell is the story with the worst roundabout in Dublin - Walkinstown roundabout. There are 3 lanes orbiting it and far too many exits (not to mention a lack of sign posts also).

This ****ing roundabout scared the **** outta me sideways when i came up to it... was SURE I'd mess up and hit someone coming off it. Horrendous stuff. Roundabouts seriously need to have better signpostage, imo, and it's impossible to find out how to officially navigate a roundabout with more than two approach lanes and/or three exits.

djimi · 09-08-2010 11:40AM

My first and only experience of the Walkinstown roundabout was enough to convince me that from now on I would seek an alternative route!

Jimmy Bottlehead · 09-08-2010 11:42AM

djimi wrote: »

My first and only experience of the Walkinstown roundabout was enough to convince me that from now on I would seek an alternative route!

My aul fella is a driver for about 30 years, not one accident, and even he isn't 100% sure on this one!

The Big Red Button · 09-08-2010 11:54AM

CiniO wrote: »

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Also, no one has an answer to the 3 exit roundabout above? (legal)

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not legal but for me, I'd stay in the left hand lane for that. There are some however with "dead" exits which I would use the right hand lane. Such as coming from here to here. Point B is a closed off "dead" exit.

I don't go by the number of exits. If the exit I'm taking is at 180 degrees or less to the entrance I'm coming in from, I stay in the outside (left) lane. If it's at more than 180 degrees, I indicate right and go into the inside (right) lane on the roundabout. Makes much more sense.

So, in the example illustrated about, I'd indicate right coming into the roundabout, stay in the inner lane, indicate left once I'd passed the first exit, but I'd stay in the inside lane until I was turning off (unlike in the diagram.)

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

More annoying are those roundabouts where the third exit is before 12, so you have much less space to avoid the idiots as you come from the right hand to left hand to take the exit. Glenageary roundabout is the perfect example of this, coming from Dun Laoghaire to go up to The Graduate roundabout. is the 3rd exit, but most people fail to see the shops exit as one and use the left hand lane

As far as I know, you'd be in the wrong here. If you're turning left at the roundabout (regardless of the number of "left" exits) you should indicate left once you've passed the preceding exit and stay in the outside lane the whole time.

ferguson · 09-08-2010 12:31PM

CiniO wrote: »

.
Why would you first check, then indicate?

anyone who does not the answer to know that should not be on the road.Why do you look both ways before crossing the road. Why not just cross away...many do;)

ferguson · 09-08-2010 12:34PM

chatterpillar wrote: »

So, in the example illustrated about, I'd indicate right coming into the roundabout, stay in the inner lane, indicate left once I'd passed the first exit, but I'd stay in the inside lane until I was turning off

why indicate left and not go left asap? One should drive on left as much and as soon as possible. I would do it like in the illustration

CiniO · 09-08-2010 12:34PM

djimi wrote: »

But you werent driving a bus or a truck were you?

On the day that the incident happened i wasn't. I was in the car.
But only yesterday I was on the same roundabout driving a 12 metre coach.

I dont know about driving buses or trucks, Ive never driven one, but Im sure they have their own procedures for combatting blind spots, but in cars you check over your shoulder to your blindspot before changing lanes. Always.

The only way to know what's in your blind spot while driving big vehicles, is to check it before and just remember what cars were driving, and just assume that they have to be in your blind spot if they are nowhere else.
Anyway, sometimes there are situations you just have to chance it.

CiniO · 09-08-2010 12:36PM

Reloc8 wrote: »

Is that a serious question ??

You check first to ensure your intended move is safe and to get a picture for what is around you. If your move isn't safe, you don't indicate.

Otherwise you run the risk of causing a sudden and possibly bad/dangerous reaction from another driver who you havn't seen who thinks 'bugger that guy hasn't seen me and is going to cut me up'.

It has the potential to cause accidents.

I still don't agree.
You propose to indicate only when a road is free (you already checked it's safe to change lane). In this case, what's the point of indication?

Indicators are to show what are you planning to do, so you first indicate, then wait for the moment you can proceed with manouver, and then do it.

ferguson · 09-08-2010 12:37PM

Slightly OT but what if the first exit is past 12 o clock say over at 3 o clock. There is one like that, I think,in Cashel Co tipp

i think a lot are very badly signposted and too late too

The Big Red Button · 09-08-2010 12:42PM

ferguson wrote: »

why indicate left and not go left asap? One should drive on left as much and as soon as possible. I would do it like in the illustration

I don't see the point in changing lanes while still on a roundabout? I've attached the diagram with how I'd do it (apologies for lack of artistic ability!

) I'm open to correction on it but it makes much more sense to me to just drive straight from the inside lane onto the exit rather than messing around and switching lanes halfway around the roundabout.

Cookie_Monster · 09-08-2010 12:43PM

chatterpillar wrote: »

I don't go by the number of exits. If the exit I'm taking is at 180 degrees or less to the entrance I'm coming in from, I stay in the outside (left) lane. If it's at more than 180 degrees, I indicate right and go into the inside (right) lane on the roundabout. Makes much more sense.

As far as I know, you'd be in the wrong here. If you're turning left at the roundabout (regardless of the number of "left" exits) you should indicate left once you've passed the preceding exit and stay in the outside lane the whole time.

but it is done by exit numbers, not left and right, well as far as I and the ROR are concerned.

ferguson · 09-08-2010 12:44PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

More annoying are those roundabouts where the third exit is before 12, so you have much less space to avoid the idiots as you come from the right hand to left hand to take the exit.

when the third exit is before 12 should you not be in the left lane all the time?

The Big Red Button · 09-08-2010 12:45PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but it is done by exit numbers, not left and right, well as far as I and the ROR are concerned.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

Don't see anything about exit numbers there?

ferguson · 09-08-2010 12:51PM

chatterpillar wrote: »

I don't see the point in changing lanes while still on a roundabout? I've attached the diagram with how I'd do it (apologies for lack of artistic ability! ) I'm open to correction on it but it makes much more sense to me to just drive straight from the inside lane onto the exit rather than messing around and switching lanes halfway around the roundabout.

actually on looking again in think you are right if your 'way' is the green line.Think i would stay in the right lane until i was past the one before i would be exiting at.

trellheim · 09-08-2010 12:54PM

It's not written down anywhere but in the ROTR. Here is the UK ROTR as it was easy to find

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070338

Cookie_Monster · 09-08-2010 12:57PM

chatterpillar wrote: »

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

Don't see anything about exit numbers there?

On or leaving the roundabout

Unless road signs or road markings indicate otherwise, follow the steps below, when taking the first exit, going straight ahead or taking later exits off a roundabout.

Exit is noted as "first" which is later called left, straight ahead, ie 2nd* and subsequent, which will be 3rd, 4th etc

*that is how I read it from the given examples.

djimi · 09-08-2010 12:59PM

chatterpillar wrote: »

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

Don't see anything about exit numbers there?

When I was learning to drive I was thought that its outside lane for exits 1 and 2, inside lane for exists 3 and subsequent. Im not sure where its written down (I dont think that site has everything the book has btw) but I know that what they (at least used to) teach and its what the test is (or again at least used to be) based on.

The Big Red Button · 09-08-2010 01:05PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Exit is noted as "first" which is later called left, straight ahead, ie 2nd* and subsequent, which will be 3rd, 4th etc

*that is how I read it from the given examples.

Yes, on that example, the first exit is left, second is straight ahead, and third is right. It's a pity really that they don't give examples of irregularly-shaped roundabouts!

But if you just read the actual text and ignore the diagrams:

Rules of the road wrote:

Making a left turn

Signal left and approach in the left-hand lane.

Keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

Going straight ahead:

Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.

Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

You may follow the course shown in the illustration by the broken red line in situations where:

Taking any later exits

Signal right and approach in the right-hand lane.

Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout.

Check your mirrors, signal left and proceed to your exit when it is safe to do so.

Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want to take.

See, they specifically explain it by referring to "left" exits, "straight ahead" exits, and "any later" than straight ahead exits. Not by "first", "second", "third and subsequent" exits.

Also, see this bit:

Rules of the road wrote:

When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.

It's pretty clear from this that it's not done by exit number ... otherwise it would say that if there were more than three lanes to treat subsequent exits as you would the third ... which makes no sense, since it doesn't specify how you treat the third - it's different on different roundabouts, depending on whether the third exit is left, straight, or right.

djimi wrote: »

When I was learning to drive I was thought that its outside lane for exits 1 and 2, inside lane for exists 3 and subsequent. Im not sure where its written down (I dont think that site has everything the book has btw) but I know that what they (at least used to) teach and its what the test is (or again at least used to be) based on.

Well, when I did my test, they definitely did it by whether you were going left, right, or straight - otherwise I'd have definitely lost marks for being in the wrong lane on a five-exit roundabout!

The rule about staying in the outside lane for the first two exits and the inside lane for the third is perfectly correct - but only on your standard four exit/entrance roundabout. For other roundabouts, you base it on the "12 o clock" or 180 degrees rule. As per the rules of the road.

ferguson · 09-08-2010 01:15PM

When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.

In a strange area how would one decide what is the most appropriate lane on approach

Roundabout - who's at fault?

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