Roundabout - who's at fault?

Cookie_Monster

ferguson wrote: »

In a strange area how would one decide what is the most appropriate lane on approach

direction you are taking and signage on approach

The Big Red Button

ferguson wrote: »

In a strange area how would one decide what is the most appropriate lane on approach

You would decide based on whether, as per the signs, your exit is left, right, or straight. And then go into the appropriate lane.

The Big Red Button

Just so we know here ... I would appreciate a definitive answer as regards the proper roundabout treatment!

Am I right, with my left/straight/rights?

Or is Cookie Monster right, with the exit number theory?

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but if so I would love to be told that!

Cookie_Monster

chatterpillar wrote: »

Just so we know here ... I would appreciate a definitive answer as regards the proper roundabout treatment!

Am I right, with my left/straight/rights?

Or is Cookie Monster right, with the exit number theory?

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but if so I would love to be told that!

Email the Dept of Transport and RSA and ask, only way you'll get a definitive answer.

djimi

chatterpillar wrote: »

Just so we know here ... I would appreciate a definitive answer as regards the proper roundabout treatment!

Am I right, with my left/straight/rights?

Or is Cookie Monster right, with the exit number theory?

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but if so I would love to be told that!

Drop into your local driving school and ask them. And report back as I too would be interested to know this.

ferguson

Just so we know here ... I would appreciate a definitive answer as regards the proper roundabout treatment!

Am I right, with my left/straight/rights?

Or is Cookie Monster right, with the exit number theory?

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but if so I would love to be told that

I don't think anyone knows. All theories sem to have some hole in them. I have a DVD on driving with a section on roundabouts. Am I allowed to upload the section or is that a breach of copyright? Mods?

The Big Red Button

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Email the Dept of Transport and RSA and ask, only way you'll get a definitive answer.

Just e-mailed the RSA! If I get a reply, I'll stick it up here ... even if it turns out that I'm wrong!

ferguson

chatterpillar wrote: »

Just e-mailed the RSA! If I get a reply, I'll stick it up here ... even if it turns out that I'm wrong!

well done but i would day what they wil say is what is in ROTR or refer your to ROTR

The Big Red Button

ferguson wrote: »

well done but i would day what they wil say is what is in ROTR or refer your to ROTR

Well I was really specific about it, and I quoted the ROTR as I did in another post above, and asked how the rules would apply in two specific examples (one on a roundabout with three equally-spaced entrance/exits and I'm taking the one at 240degrees to the entrance I'm coming in on, and the other on a roundabout with three exits all within 180degrees of the entrance I'm coming in on and I'm taking the third!)

Basically, in the first example, I'd take the inner/right lane (because I'm turning right), but Cookie_Monster would take the outer/left lane (because it's the second exit.) In the second example, I'd take the outer/left lane (because I'm turning left), but Cookie_Monster would take the inner/right lane (because it's the third exit.)

Confusing!

(Cookie_Monster, feel free to correct that if I've got you wrong! :pac:)

It'll be interesting to see if they get back to me.

goat2

CiniO wrote: »

I had a situation on roundabout today. Nothing happen, but could have finished with a little crash.
I was approaching the roundabout on double carriageway. As I wanted to turn right on roundabout, I took right lane. Lady who was behind me for a while approached roundabout on left lane (so I thought she was going straight or left).
Anyway I went through roundabout, and after I passed last exit before the one I wanted to leave roundabout, I signalled left, and started turning left (I was still in the inner lane, so I had to cross through outer lane). This exit from roundobout is to a small street, so there's only one lane. Before doing so I checked in my mirror, but didn't see anyone. When started turning left, I realised, that the lady (earlier mentioned) was just there taking the same exit as me. She went through all roundabout on the outer lane to turn right on it, and at the moment, she must have been in my blind spot.
Luckily I realised she was there, so I could avoid the crash.

Anyway - If the crash would happen - who's fault would it be?
Her - because she shouldn't drive on the outer lane of roundabout while turning right on it?
Or my - because I stared changing lane on the roundabout, and someone (she) was on this lane already?

What do yous guys think?

it is easy make these mistakes
i beleive in having patience with other road users, something that alot more would need, as sometimes you hear people hooting hooters when someone before them make a mistake
this is why we have wing and rear view mirrors for.

**Timbuk2**

I think the standard way is using position on the clock face, i.e. if the exit is after the 12 o clock position, you should choose the offside/inner orbital/right lane. I believe that non-standard roundabouts should have road-markings, but even road markings aren't enough - I was driving recently in Castlebar and a lot of the roundabouts there have straight ahead (12 o clock) marked in the right-hand lane, and the left lane is only for turning left, but lorries were blocking the road-markings so I didn't realise until too late.

The Big Red Button

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

I think the standard way is using position on the clock face, i.e. if the exit is after the 12 o clock position, you should choose the offside/inner orbital/right lane. I believe that non-standard roundabouts should have road-markings, but even road markings aren't enough - I was driving recently in Castlebar and a lot of the roundabouts there have straight ahead (12 o clock) marked in the right-hand lane, and the left lane is only for turning left, but lorries were blocking the road-markings so I didn't realise until too late.

You know, I noticed this just last weekend when I was driving to Westport ... it seems to be a uniquely Mayo thing! They must have their very own ROTR there as regards the roundabouts!

vibe666

CiniO wrote: »

I still don't agree.
You propose to indicate only when a road is free (you already checked it's safe to change lane). In this case, what's the point of indication?

Indicators are to show what are you planning to do, so you first indicate, then wait for the moment you can proceed with manouver, and then do it.

i'm sorry, but where the feck did you learn how to drive exactly?

have you never heard the phrase "mirror, signal, manoeuvre"? one of the first things you should be taught when learning to drive is to check your mirrors and any potential blind spots before doing anything else on the road. :rolleyes:

EDIT: christ on a bike, i just re-read previous posts and you drive a coach!!! seriously??? if you can take and pass 2 separate driving tests for a car & a coach and not know one of the most basic rules of driving there's no hope for anyone on the roads in this country.

another thing that seems to be missing from a lot of driving instructors in Ireland is "the 12 O'clock rule" (sometimes referred to as the 6 o'clock rule) which basically means if you are approaching a roundabout where there are two entrance lanes, you just imagine that you are coming from the 6 o'clock position and intend to exit before the 12 o'clock position directly opposite you you should take the left hand lane and anything after 12 o'clock you take the right hand lane unless the markings dictate otherwise or a garda instructs you to (in the event of an accident etc).

simply put, if you're going less than halfway round it stay in the left lane and anything more than that you take the right lane, regardless of how many exits there are. it's the same rule that is taught in the UK and pretty much everywhere else in the world where there are roundabouts and until i came to ireland it never occured to me that anyone would ever question the logic of it, never mind recklessly ignore it and quite often flat out deny that it exists.

Vertakill

vibe666 wrote: »

another thing that seems to be missing from a lot of driving instructors in Ireland is "the 12 O'clock rule" (sometimes referred to as the 6 o'clock rule) which basically means if you are approaching a roundabout where there are two entrance lanes, you just imagine that you are coming from the 6 o'clock position and intend to exit before the 12 o'clock position directly opposite you you should take the left hand lane and anything after 12 o'clock you take the right hand lane unless the markings dictate otherwise or a garda instructs you to (in the event of an accident etc).

The 'o clock' way of describing things has been somewhat made obsolete as it can be misleading if you have a roundabout with an usual number of entrances/exits.

The current correct terminology is 1st exit, 2nd exit, 3rd exit and so on.

In your average roundabout, 2nd exit would be what you're describing as 12 o clock.

vibe666 wrote: »

simply put, if you're going less than halfway round it stay in the left lane and anything more than that you take the right lane, regardless of how many exits there are. it's the same rule that is taught in the UK and pretty much everywhere else in the world where there are roundabouts and until i came to ireland it never occured to me that anyone would ever question the logic of it, never mind recklessly ignore it and quite often flat out deny that it exists.

I'm in agreement with most of your post up until this point. On some large roundabouts there could be 2 or 3 exits BEFORE you get to half way around the roundabout and that's where the "o clock" system fails. This is why there is so many people misusing roundabouts.

You only need to look at roundabouts such as Walkinstown Roundabout to know that the "o clock" terminology doesn't work for every roundabout, and if followed to the letter, we would have carnage (more so) in Walkinstown every morning.

ferguson

chatterpillar wrote: »

Well I was really specific about it, and I quoted the ROTR as I did in another post above, and asked how the rules would apply in two specific examples (one on a roundabout with three equally-spaced entrance/exits and I'm taking the one at 240degrees to the entrance I'm coming in on, and the other on a roundabout with three exits all within 180degrees of the entrance I'm coming in on and I'm taking the third!)

Basically, in the first example, I'd take the inner/right lane (because I'm turning right), but Cookie_Monster would take the outer/left lane (because it's the second exit.) In the second example, I'd take the outer/left lane (because I'm turning left), but Cookie_Monster would take the inner/right lane (because it's the third exit.)

Confusing!

(Cookie_Monster, feel free to correct that if I've got you wrong! :pac:)

It'll be interesting to see if they get back to me.

fair play to you I wasn't being critical only saying it might hard to get a straight answer in case it would look like legal advice. i could be wrong - hope so

ferguson

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

I think the standard way is using position on the clock face, i.e. if the exit is after the 12 o clock position, you should choose the offside/inner orbital/right lane. I believe that non-standard roundabouts should have road-markings, but even road markings aren't enough - I was driving recently in Castlebar and a lot of the roundabouts there have straight ahead (12 o clock) marked in the right-hand lane, and the left lane is only for turning left, but lorries were blocking the road-markings so I didn't realise until too late.

www.drivingschoolireland.com look up questions re roundabouts. he says if past 12 o clock take right lane, i think.

The Big Red Button

Vertakill wrote: »

The 'o clock' way of describing things has been somewhat made obsolete as it can be misleading if you have a roundabout with an usual number of entrances/exits.

The current correct terminology is 1st exit, 2nd exit, 3rd exit and so on.

In your average roundabout, 2nd exit would be what you're describing as 12 o clock.


I'm in agreement with most of your post up until this point. On some large roundabouts there could be 2 or 3 exits BEFORE you get to half way around the roundabout and that's where the "o clock" system fails. This is why there is so many people misusing roundabouts.

You only need to look at roundabouts such as Walkinstown Roundabout to know that the "o clock" terminology doesn't work for every roundabout, and if followed to the letter, we would have carnage (more so) in Walkinstown every morning.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

But - as per my previous posts in this thread - from reading the rules of the road, they seem to go by whether you're going left, right, or straight - not by the number of exits.

As far as I can see, instructors seem to use the number of exits as a rule, and it works perfectly fine in a normal four exit/entrance roundabout.

But can you find any backup (ROTR etc) stating that you should choose your lane according to the number of exits? I can't!

The Big Red Button

ferguson wrote: »

fair play to you I wasn't being critical only saying it might hard to get a straight answer in case it would look like legal advice. i could be wrong - hope so

Well, if anyone's going to give me proper legal advice on how to use a roundabout, I would hope it would be the RSA! :pac:

ferguson

Vertakill wrote: »

The 'o clock' way of describing things has been somewhat made obsolete as it can be misleading if you have a roundabout with an usual number of entrances/exits.

The current correct terminology is 1st exit, 2nd exit, 3rd exit and so on.

In your average roundabout, 2nd exit would be what you're describing as 12 o clock.


I'm in agreement with most of your post up until this point. On some large roundabouts there could be 2 or 3 exits BEFORE you get to half way around the roundabout and that's where the "o clock" system fails. This is why there is so many people misusing roundabouts.

You only need to look at roundabouts such as Walkinstown Roundabout to know that the "o clock" terminology doesn't work for every roundabout, and if followed to the letter, we would have carnage (more so) in Walkinstown every morning.

The o clock system does not fail no matter how many exits, unless 12 o clock ceases to be directly opposite 6 o clock.? your entry is 6 o clock. anything further than 12 as seen from 6 is right hand lane

Some are very badly signposted though

ferguson

chatterpillar wrote: »

Well, if anyone's going to give me proper legal advice on how to use a roundabout, I would hope it would be the RSA! :pac:

yes but what i mean is they might just refer to the rotr in a general way rather than answering your specific question because while you would wish legal advice they would might not want to give it

The Big Red Button

ferguson wrote: »

yes but what i mean is they might just refer to the rotr in a general way rather than answering your specific question because while you would wish legal advice they would might not want to give it

I know what you mean, but I really hope that they do give a proper answer! I mean, I really really don't think that I'm wrong here, but if I am I'd much rather be told so, and then I could adjust my driving accordingly!

ferguson

chatterpillar wrote: »

I know what you mean, but I really hope that they do give a proper answer! I mean, I really really don't think that I'm wrong here, but if I am I'd much rather be told so, and then I could adjust my driving accordingly!

so do i look forward to the reply

The Big Red Button

But from a logical point of view ... basic physics ... the whole point of roundabouts is the circular flow of them? That's the whole idea, surely? So how could the number of exits be in any way relevant, logically? I honestly don't get it!

ferguson

chatterpillar wrote: »

the whole point of roundabouts is the circular flow of them? !

is it not something to do with keeping traffic moving? you do not have to wait to enter if no car on your left as you would with a red light?

**Timbuk2**

The number of exits can't be right. There is a roundabout near me that has only two exits, the first at the 9 o clock position, and the 2nd at the 4 o clock position. Going in the left lane for an exit that is at the 4 o clock position is just madness, in my honest opinion. It is what my driving instructor recommended though, but I'm sure he is wrong.

There is actually another roundabout near me that has technically only one exit (as the slip road off a motorway doesn't count as an exit, technically). The first exit is at the 2 o clock position. That means you would be in the left lane for both taking the first exit, and for taking the second exit (going by the ROTR) which would mean being in the left lane going back the way you came. But there are two lanes on approach.

The exit number method doesn't work for every roundabout, but every roundabout can be navigated by using the clockface method - it just makes more sense!

vibe666

Vertakill wrote: »

The 'o clock' way of describing things has been somewhat made obsolete as it can be misleading if you have a roundabout with an usual number of entrances/exits.

The current correct terminology is 1st exit, 2nd exit, 3rd exit and so on.

In your average roundabout, 2nd exit would be what you're describing as 12 o clock.


I'm in agreement with most of your post up until this point. On some large roundabouts there could be 2 or 3 exits BEFORE you get to half way around the roundabout and that's where the "o clock" system fails. This is why there is so many people misusing roundabouts.

You only need to look at roundabouts such as Walkinstown Roundabout to know that the "o clock" terminology doesn't work for every roundabout, and if followed to the letter, we would have carnage (more so) in Walkinstown every morning.

you can't make the 12 o'clock rule 'obsolete' unless you plan on changing the numbers on a clock.

the number of exits on any roundabout is irrelevant to the 12 o'clock rule, that's why it's used everywhere in the first place.

any roundabout big enough to warrant anything other than the 12 o'clock rule has the correct lanes marked on the road and with road signs which is where my other statement comes into effect, i.e. the bit where I said "unless the road markings or a garda directs you otherwise" which is why I put them in bold.

any roundabout big enough as to make the 12 o'clock rule ambiguous or at all unclear will have road markings and/or signs to direct you as to how to use it (for the most part, even in ireland).

just so we're clear, despite what you might think, you aren't actually arguing with me on this, you're arguing with the ROTR for pretty much every country that has roundabouts in use, which is since the 1960's in some countries like the UK where it was first introduced and they're pretty adamant about keeping things the way they are so you've got your work cut out for you.

your argument and similar arguments about what people believe to be 'the correct way' to use roundabouts have been used several times in similar threads on here and elsewhere over the years and they've always been shot down because despite what you believe, you are mistaken.

the sad sorry truth of it is that the only reason this thread even exists is because of the poor state of driving instruction in ireland and in general a lack of clear concise instructions in the ROTR to take account of anything other than a perfectly circular roundabout with 4 equally spaced exists which leaves room for ambiguity and leads everyone to make things up as they see fit.

cyclopath2001

chatterpillar wrote: »

So how could the number of exits be in any way relevant, logically? I honestly don't get it!

+1

It's amazing that in a forum where most members want to be free to make up their own RoTR, they're fixated on a hard and fast rule as to what lane to use on a roundabout.

Follow best practice, give way to traffic coming from right, choose a sensible lane and don't cut people up...that's surely all we need to know?

Cookie_Monster

chatterpillar wrote: »

You know, I noticed this just last weekend when I was driving to Westport ... it seems to be a uniquely Mayo thing! They must have their very own ROTR there as regards the roundabouts!

they are becoming more common. Few of the around Dundrum aswell, and N11 Enniskerry exit southbound too has been there for years and years

ferguson wrote: »

www.drivingschoolireland.com look up questions re roundabouts. he says if past 12 o clock take right lane, i think.

Thats just another opinion of the ROR though, nothing more. RSA of Dept of Transport are only concrete standpoints, so lets see if the even answers the posters email

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

+1

It's amazing that in a forum where most members want to be free to make up their own RoTR, they're fixated on a hard and fast rule as to what lane to use on a roundabout.

you really need to stop talking utter ****e on here

gurramok

vibe666 wrote: »

the sad sorry truth of it is that the only reason this thread even exists is because of the poor state of driving instruction in ireland and in general a lack of clear concise instructions in the ROTR to take account of anything other than a perfectly circular roundabout with 4 equally spaced exists which leaves room for ambiguity and leads everyone to make things up as they see fit.

I was taught by one of the big driving schools to always take the 1st exit in the left hand lane even if it was at 5 o'clock!

There was no 12 o'clock rule taught to me at all. Its no wonder half of us use roundabouts differently to the other half

vibe666

gurramok wrote: »

I was taught by one of the big driving schools to always take the 1st exit in the left hand lane even if it was at 5 o'clock!

There was no 12 o'clock rule taught to me at all. Its no wonder half of us use roundabouts differently to the other half

yeah, but i've seen your driving and i wouldn't trust that driving school one bit!