Fluoride water 'causes cancer' in boys

My name is URL · 07-08-2010 09:24PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

Oh ffs!

Take it to the Conspiracy Theory forum will ya?

hurrhurrr.. go and do your own research rather than throwing around stupid generic one-liners in a vain attempt to refute what I have provided sources for

MrStuffins · 07-08-2010 09:28PM

My name is URL wrote: »

hurrhurrr.. go and do your own research rather than throwing around stupid generic one-liners in a vain attempt to refute what I have provided sources for

Did i refute anything you said?

Have i thrown out any "one-liners" here?

I have in fact posted here and posted sources also. :pac:

I don't know anyone who had died of cancer from drinking tap-water i'm afraid!

El Weirdo · 07-08-2010 09:58PM

Erm... Won't somebody think of the children?

Mike 1972 · 07-08-2010 11:39PM

The definitive guide to Cancer and its causes cure and prevention :pac:

bytey · 08-08-2010 01:51AM

In other news ,
cancer causes cancer

Capt'n Midnight · 08-08-2010 02:31AM

digme wrote: »

Fluoride in tap water can cause bone cancer in boys, a disturbing new study indicates, although there is no evidence of a link for girls.
New American research suggests that boys exposed to fluoride between the ages of five and 10 will suffer an increased rate of osteosarcoma - bone cancer - bet-ween the ages of 10 and 19.

The increased cancer risks, identified in a newly available study conducted at the Harvard School of Dental Health, were found at fluoride exposure levels common in both the US and Britain. It was the first examination of the link between exposure to the chemical at the critical period of a child's development and the age of onset of bone cancer.

Parents, this is reason enough to start screaming at the local city councils to stop the practice of fluoridation of your city's water supply immediately.

First this story has been going around since 2005 :rolleyes:

Second if the survey is available then link to it.

Blindly parroting stuff you have seen on other web sites at best indicates you are very susceptible to confirmation bias.

http://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/safety/osteosarcoma.htm

This paper is based on the analysis of an initial set of cases from a 15-year effort to study fluoride and osteosarcoma by the Harvard School of Dental Medicine and collaborating organizations. The principal investigator for the overall study cautions against over interpreting or generalizing the results of the Bassin analysis, stressing that preliminary analysis of a second set of cases does not appear to replicate the findings (Douglass et al., 2006)

For anyone who isn't a sock puppet please find attached the original paper

K-9 · 08-08-2010 02:42AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Blindly parroting stuff you have seen on other web sites at best indicates you are very susceptible to confirmation bias.

I suspect this is what is going on here!

People should make there own mind up and try to approach it from a rational, critical point of view.

Bonito · 08-08-2010 02:45AM

In boys eh?

*empties tooth paste tube in to glass of water.*

That'll put hairs on yer chest! :cool:

longshanks · 08-08-2010 02:50AM

makey uppy stuff linked to makey uppy cancer. shizzit jus got real yo

Capt'n Midnight · 08-08-2010 03:01AM

http://www.vhi.ie/personalise/controller/PrItemDisplay?PRYear=2005&prId=28

Cardiovascular disease kills more Irish men and women of all ages than any other disease. In fact research from the World Health Organisation has found that Ireland has the highest death rate from heart disease in people under 65 in the EU. Coronary heart disease has traditionally been considered a man’s disease but as many as one in five deaths in Irish women are attributable to heart disease.

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/05May/Pages/clean-teeth-cuts-heart-disease.aspx

When all other possible influences had been taken into account, people who reported poor oral hygiene (who never or rarely brushed their teeth) had a 70% greater risk of cardiovascular disease, compared with those who brushed their teeth twice a day.

OK it's not as simple as saying that not brushing your teeth every day means you have three times the risk of heart disease as someone who brushes morning and evening since people who brush their teeth may also have other healthy habits.

Fluoride might affect one in a million, maybe, it's hard to see the effects amongst the other real dangers.

Heart disease on the other hand kills one in four of us.

Oh yeah ....
Oxygen causes cancer.
There will be more dioxins in the air during the next bank holiday weekend than a whole year from any of the proposed incinerators.

The Daily Mail list of 'Things that give you cancer'.

jordan.. · 08-08-2010 03:05AM

digme wrote: »

Fluoride in tap water can cause bone cancer in boys, a disturbing new study indicates, although there is no evidence of a link for girls.
New American research suggests that boys exposed to fluoride between the ages of five and 10 will suffer an increased rate of osteosarcoma - bone cancer - bet-ween the ages of 10 and 19.

The increased cancer risks, identified in a newly available study conducted at the Harvard School of Dental Health, were found at fluoride exposure levels common in both the US and Britain. It was the first examination of the link between exposure to the chemical at the critical period of a child's development and the age of onset of bone cancer.

Parents, this is reason enough to start screaming at the local city councils to stop the practice of fluoridation of your city's water supply immediately.

your wasting your time mate! peoples ignorance is pretty shocking!

Capt'n Midnight · 08-08-2010 03:25AM

K-9 wrote: »

I suspect this is what is going on here!

People should make there own mind up and try to approach it from a rational, critical point of view.

Professions and trades exist because we need experts who know about stuff we don't ourselves.

Most people would call a plumber if their pipes burst or if they wanted to put in a shower. If you have a serious infection you head for a doctor.

My blood boils when people who don't know about epidemiology spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. We've had people DIE in this country of preventable diseases because of the FUD caused by the vaccine scare.

IF it is shown that fluoridation of water prevents heart disease will there be apologies for the unnecessary deaths caused by delaying tactics ?

chasm · 08-08-2010 03:32AM

I have always had my reservations about water fluoridation, but in regard to dental matters. When i was growing up i recall on many occasions my older relatives discussing the water supply in the village where i grew up. For years the water supply had too much fluoride. Residents over a certain age had fluorosis, quite severe in some cases. As a child it kinda freaked me out, especially when they spoke about, believe it or not, people having green teeth!!

I'm not surprised though, as according to this article the fluoride content in the water was 5.8, which seems very high judging by other articles i have read. This article also states that Typical fluoride mottling occurred in 95% or more of the Mersea and Burnham children, half of it in the moderately severe grade.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919288/pdf/procrsmed00389-0157.pdf

I also found this article from a 2000 edition of the independant a rather interesting read,
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fluoride-in-our-water-are-we-brushing-with-danger-381516.html

although this bit rather p*ssed me off tbh (bloody politicians!!)
"Despite all the evidence which now exists about the dangers of fluoride to health, in 35 years of fluoridation, no Irish government has ever carried out a public health survey on its effects, even though it is required to under the 1960 Health (Fluoridation of Water Supplies) Act. When asked in a recent interview as to why no such surveys had been carried out, the Minister for Health, Michael Martin said that the population of Ireland was ``too small''.

OutlawPete · 08-08-2010 03:44AM

Zillah wrote: »

I would like to put you ... in a sack and beat the sack with a stick.

You want to beat the OP (amongst others) with a stick?

For wanting fluoride removed from our tap water ..

Care too enlighten us as to why?

Antamojo · 08-08-2010 11:47AM

Hmmm, so brushing your teeth gives you cancer? Great...

El_Dangeroso · 08-08-2010 12:48PM

Can any of the pro-fluoridation people come up with any evidence that there is a justification for mass dietary supplementation through our water supply, given that most people now use flouride toothpaste?

As I said I'm not convinced of a cancer link, but the fact that the government decides that this is something EVERYONE is deficient in to the point of putting it in the water supply is deeply concerning to me.

So, anyone got some evidence that we need our water to be flouridated in this day and age?

Some comparisons of tooth decay in flouridated vs. non-flouridated countries:

http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/teeth/caries/who-dmft.gif

So why is our government spending money on something that is entirely unnecessary in modern Ireland?

OutlawPete · 08-08-2010 01:03PM

Temple_Grandin wrote: »

Can any of the pro-fluoridation people come up with any evidence that there is a justification for mass dietary supplementation through our water supply, given that most people now use flouride toothpaste?

Doubt it.

The main reason certain countries stopped the practice of adding fluoride to the public drinking water was due to the irrefutable links to thyroid disorders and osteoporosis.

Ireland is mentioned at the start of this set of videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpPv290z2-Y

bleg · 08-08-2010 01:05PM

http://cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5014a1.htm

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/CRD_Reports/crdreport18.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19772843

El_Dangeroso · 08-08-2010 01:28PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Doubt it.

The main reason certain countries stopped the practice of adding fluoride to the public drinking water was due to the irrefutable links to thyroid disorders and osteoporosis.

Can I get some links on the thyroid disorder? I hadn't seen evidence of that though it is biologically plausible given that flouride competes with absorption with iodine, a substance essential to the thyroid.

bleg wrote: »

http://cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5014a1.htm

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/CRD_Reports/crdreport18.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19772843

Thanks for the links, it does seem that fluoridation does somewhat reduce the incidence of carries, and I knew that, but the problem is the extent. Why is dental decay reducing just as much as non-fluoridated countries as in fluoridated (in some instances more of a severe decline)? Clearly there are far more potent factors involved in incidence of tooth decay.

From the google docs link:

'It is estimtaed that a median of six people need to receive
fluoridated water for one extra person to be caries-free'

So 5 people don't need it at all and are still getting it. Less than 17% of the population are actually getting any benefit at all. I find this a very unconvincing case for mass supplementation, why not add more fluoride to toothpaste and let people decide for themselves. It's not the government's job to be paternalistic and decide en-mass what dietary supplementation the population needs.

Be honest, If I came out with a study that showed there was a strong case for putting a new dietary supplement in the water, would you be for it, or would you think it's up to individuals to decide what to put in their bodies or not?

bleg · 08-08-2010 01:38PM

If it was as harmless and saved the state millions like fluoride then I would be completely pro it.

Also, you might want to brush up on your statistical analysis.

El_Dangeroso · 08-08-2010 01:56PM

bleg wrote: »

If it was as harmless and saved the state millions like fluoride then I would be completely pro it.

Is it saving the state millions? Prey tell. You still haven't answered why we are seeing little difference in the decline of tooth decay between fluoridated and non-fluoridated countries. If anything in some non-flouridated countries the decline is faster. Why is that?

Also, you might want to brush up on your statistical analysis.

Yeah I was using rough figures as a point of illustration. Point being that it is not the government's job to mass-medicate its population for the good of some. You drink flouridated water if you want to, don't deny me the choice.

OutlawPete · 08-08-2010 02:01PM

Temple_Grandin wrote: »

Can I get some links on the thyroid disorder?

This page covers most of the evidence to date:

http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/thyroid/

Capt'n Midnight · 08-08-2010 02:18PM

chasm wrote: »

When asked in a recent interview as to why no such surveys had been carried out, the Minister for Health, Michael Martin said that the population of Ireland was ``too small''.

The incidence of osteosarcoma is slightly higher in males than
females with an annual incidence rate of approximately 3.5
per million for males and 2.9 per million for females under
the age of 24 years
...
The etiology of osteosarcoma is largely unknown [1, 4].
In humans, ionizing radiation is the only environmental
agent known to cause bone cancer and is thought to have an
effect in approximately 3% of cases from either external
high-dose irradiation used in cancer therapy or internal
bone-seeking radioisotopes from occupational or medical
use [1, 5, 6]. Alkylating agents used in chemotherapy are
thought to increase the risk for osteosarcoma and evidence
for other etiologic factors including viruses, antecedent
trauma, or radium in drinking water has been suggested but
inconclusive [1, 5, 7, 8]. Certain pre-existing bone defects
including Paget’s disease have been found more frequently
in patients who subsequently developed bone cancers [1, 4,
5]. Also, a genetic predisposition for osteosarcoma has
been described, specifically for patients with a hereditary
form of retinoblastoma or those with familial Li-Fraumeni
cancer syndrome [1, 5, 6].

in 2006 there were 448,333 males aged 14 or less
if we include people up to the age of 20 then we are looking about 640,000 males. At a rate of 3.5 per million this would translate into 2.24 cases per year, most of which would be from the causes listed above.

In Ireland we'd expect to get 9 cases every 4 years.

How do you propose to setup a survey to detect variations in this level ? How do you link to fluoride and yet rule out enviromental factors like x-rays emitted from CRT's , increase in radiation caused by living in areas rich in granite.
Maybe the use of smokeless fuel means the air is more radioactive than it used to be , and of course we can't rule out Sellafield/Windscale/Calder Hall as a source of ionizing radiation.

ONE random death would skew the figures.
How many people were killed in one crash in Donegal ?

And just in case anyone is listening
1 in 4 of us will die of heart disease
people with bad teeth are 70% more likely to have heart disease

Sea Sharp · 08-08-2010 02:19PM

oh noes!

El_Dangeroso · 08-08-2010 02:28PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And just in case anyone is listening
1 in 4 of us will die of heart disease
people with bad teeth are 70% more likely to have heart disease

Are you seriously proposing that fluoride prevents heart disease on the basis of a correlation that has so many confounding variables?

Or could it be that triglycerides are a significant heart-disease risk, sugar raises triglycerides and sugar also promotes tooth decay. That's just off the top of my head, I can think of about 12 other reasons for that correlation.

ORLY? · 08-08-2010 02:40PM

Temple_Grandin wrote: »

It's not the government's job to be paternalistic and decide en-mass what dietary supplementation the population needs.

And when the segement of the population that would have benefitted most end up getting fillings throughout their life, followed by dentures and all the treatment for problems associated with bad oral hygiene at the government's expense (i.e. yours), will you be give out about that?

Ickle Magoo · 08-08-2010 02:46PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And just in case anyone is listening
1 in 4 of us will die of heart disease
people with bad teeth are 70% more likely to have heart disease

Surely people who don't take care of their teeth or have such a poor diet that it affects their dentistry are going to be at higher risk of lots of health issues because they don't look after themselves or have a healthy diet?

I'd love if they stopped puting fluoride - and whatever other chemicals they use in the water, it smells and tastes disgusting.

My name is URL · 08-08-2010 02:58PM

ORLY? wrote: »

And when the segement of the population that would have benefitted most end up getting fillings throughout their life, followed by dentures and all the treatment for problems associated with bad oral hygiene at the government's expense (i.e. yours), will you be give out about that?

I don't think I know anyone over the age of 30 who has never had a filling. Surely people should be expected to look after themselves.. it's mind boggling that so many countries still mass medicate their populations in order to reduce the minority of people who don't properly take care of themselves from developing cavities

ORLY? · 08-08-2010 03:08PM

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't think I know anyone over the age of 30 who has never had a filling. Surely people should be expected to look after themselves.. it's mind boggling that so many countries still mass medicate their populations in order to reduce the minority of people who don't properly take care of themselves from developing cavities

Yes, people should be expected to look after themselves, but when they don't the state provides the medical treatment they need as a consequence of not looking after themselves. Whether or not you agree with this is separate to this particular debate, this is the way it is in Ireland. Fluoridating the water protects those in most need, children in families where the diet is unchecked and brushing isn't taught properly or enforced. The problems children face because of this, in childhood and in later life, will be paid for by everyone via the government.

Would you be happier to stop fluoridation and then to have more of your money going to treat the consequences?

Ickle Magoo · 08-08-2010 03:11PM

Are there any links to evidence that mass fluoridation makes a significant impact on dental health? Crappy diet and no brushing will earn a mouthful of rotten teeth regardless of whatever tiny amount of fluoride is being ingested via diet, surely?

Fluoride water 'causes cancer' in boys

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