Water Fluoridation

locum-motion · 04-08-2010 10:28pm

opinion guy wrote: »

...So he didn't reference them. Look them up and disprove them...

How can King Mob look up references that aren't provided?

Please answer simply!

You've posted here often enough to know how it works: YOU have posted this stuff, so it's up to YOU to provide the references that support your argument. It is not the responsibility of other posters to "look them up and disprove" what YOU are saying, it's YOUR responsibility to back up what YOU post.

I'll give you an opportunity to do so before the other mods and I start deleting and possibly banning.

King Mob · 04-08-2010 10:40pm

opinion guy wrote: »

No no no. Hes I asked you about very specific points of fact. So he didn't reference them. Look them up and disprove them. You are the one casting everything out as biased - the onus is on you.

No it's not. He made the claim, he has the burden of proof.
He didn't reference. That was my point.

opinion guy wrote: »

You are making the assumptions that the figure of 50% is wrong. That it has a short half-life. The fluoride does not bioaccumulate. Apparently you don't even realise you made these assumptions.

Actually you are making the assumption that I am making the assumptions.
I am not assuming the figures are necessarily wrong (though they certainly could be) I am assuming based on the other dishonest points he made on his list, that these claims are not trustworthy. This is made doubly worse by the fact he provides no evidence do support these figures.

They could by right, but he's shown nothing to support them, and given the rest of his list uses dishonest tactics, I have no reason to take his word on it.

opinion guy wrote: »

Forget this guy and his argument. Here are some simple questions on fluoride that you surely must know the answers to given the strenght of your assertions. Simple answers here - yes, no, figures or I don't know will do.
1. Is fluoride a cumulative poison ?
2. What is its half life ?
3. Does it accumulate in bones, pineal gland and other tissues?
4. What are its half-lives in bones, pineal glands and other tissues ?
5. Is fluoride excreted by the kidneys?
6. Is the excretion rate via the kidneys 50% of the absorbed dose ?
7. how is this excretion impaired by reduced kidney function ?

So please answer simply.

Well I never claimed or asserted anything about any of these things, just that the article doesn't support it's claims.

But if you want yes no answers.
1. No.
2. 2 seconds.
3. No.
4. 2 seconds.
5. No.
6. No.
7. Magic.

Now if we are to apply your logic, you can't ask me to back up these claims, in fact you have to go and find out the answers for yourself.
Does that seem fair to you?

opinion guy · 04-08-2010 10:49pm

locum-motion wrote: »

How can King Mob look up references that aren't provided?

No I didn't post the arguments. I provided a link to someone else who follows the argument. I clearly said this.

But I'm tired of waiting. How can he do this ? By looking up the standard and most highly regarded sources of information of the subject.

In this case The Agency for Toxic Substances & Disease Registry. The ATSDR a branch of the FDA and is the US government official resource for information on toxic substances for one thing. In short - its as authouritive as it gets. They produce for each toxic substance a "Toxicological Profile". The one for fluoride and related substances is TP11:

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp11.html

Here is an extract - section 1.4:

Generally, most of the fluoride in food or water that you swallow enters your bloodstream quickly through the digestive tract. However, the amount that enters your bloodstream also depends on factors such as how much of the fluoride you swallowed, how well the fluoride dissolves in water, whether you ate or drank recently, and what you ate or drank. Factors such as age and health status affect what happens to the fluoride ion once it is in your body. After entering your body, about half of the fluoride leaves the body quickly in urine, usually within 24 hours unless large amounts (20 mg or more, which is the amount in 20 or more liters of optimally fluoridated water) are ingested. Most of the fluoride ion that stays in your body is stored in your bones and teeth.

The emphasis added is mine.
It directly vindicates the most recent point of discussion from the website I linked to and directly contradicts King Mob's statement

This is blatant unsupported scaremongering at it's worse.

King Mob - are you willing to conceed those point above fromt he website I linked are in fact correct ? EDIT: Note that this comment was in direct reference to tthose specific issues of 50% renal excretion and retention in the body.

I leave it up to you to decide who is backed up by authority and who is biased. I will say anyone, who is actually expert enough to have a valid opinion on the safety or otherwise of fluoride supplementation should know where to find the Tox Profile for fluoride on the ATSDR site. Its the basic reference point for the science of any toxicological substance (Toxbase being the clinical online resource, Goldfranks being the top paper reference).

The reason I don't have an official opinion on this is because I know that it would take me many months of reading and thinking to form a rounded opinion. But I do know the kind of issues that are relevant.

So what was it you were saying about deleting and banning ?

opinion guy · 04-08-2010 10:52pm

King Mob wrote: »

Actually you are making the assumption that I am making the assumptions.

See my above post as regards to who is assuming and who is knowing. I do know enough about fluoride toxicity to know it is retained without having to look it up, but I did so anyhow for your benefit.

But if you want yes no answers.
1. No.
2. 2 seconds.
3. No.
4. 2 seconds.
5. No.
6. No.
7. Magic.

Where did you get the 2 seconds from ? Well since my last post pointed out that fluoride is retained in the body, we know you are making it up.

King Mob · 04-08-2010 11:05pm

opinion guy wrote: »

King Mob - are you willing to conceed those point above fromt he website I linked are in fact correct ?

Partially.
It says it accumulates mostly in the bones, so special mention of the pineal gland like in the article.
It doesn't call it a accumulative poison.
And most importantly it does not say such an accumulation is harmful, which the article claims.

So using it to make it sound like it is harmful is scaremongering.
I stand by that part of my statement.
I even stand by the fact that it was unsupported in the article.

But I have to agree that the figures are accurate.

opinion guy wrote: »

See my above post as regards to who is assuming and who is knowing. I do know enough about fluoride toxicity to know it is retained without having to look it up, but I did so anyhow for your benefit.

Again what was I assuming? That the writer isn't presenting information honestly?
That's not an assumption, it cold hard fact.

opinion guy wrote: »

Where did you get the 2 seconds from ? Well since my last post pointed out that fluoride is retained in the body, we know you are making it up.

Again, by your logic it was your job to supply the information right?
Why should I have to explain where I'm getting my figure?

locum-motion · 04-08-2010 11:13pm

opinion guy wrote: »

No I didn't post the arguments. I provided a link to someone else who follows the argument. I clearly said this.

You were, however, the person who introduced those arguments here, were you not? So therefore the onus fell on you to provide backup. Which you have now done. That is what I was asking you to do. Thank you.

Note: I am trying to act as a referee in this discussion. I'm trying to see that the discussion proceeds correctly, not to rule on the actual facts or otherwise of the information provided. I'm not an expert in this area, nor do I pretend to be, nor do I have the time (or the inclination) to become one, much as Opinion Guy has stated he doesn't have the time either. That said, my father's a dentist with over 50 years experience, so his opinion is one that I value on subjects like this, and which I sought last night. He is unequivocal in his support for water flouridation. He is also the most passionately professional person I know; what I mean by that is that he values the dental health of his patients and the population at large way ahead of his own fiscal gain. If people are interested, I'll post more of what he told me later.

locum-motion · 04-08-2010 11:18pm

opinion guy wrote: »

Where did you get the 2 seconds from ? Well since my last post pointed out that fluoride is retained in the body, we know you are making it up.

I think it is perfectly obvious that he made it up. It's also perfectly obvious why he made it up, which was to point out the flaw in how you were presenting your arguments.

Let's ALL try to calm down a bit, folks, and try not to let the thread descend into a slagging match.

opinion guy · 04-08-2010 11:24pm

King Mob wrote: »

Partially.
It says it accumulates mostly in the bones, so special mention of the pineal gland like in the article.
It doesn't call it a accumulative poison.
And most importantly it does not say such an accumulation is harmful, which the article claims.

So using it to make it sound like it is harmful is scaremongering.
I stand by that part of my statement.
I even stand by the fact that it was unsupported in the article.

But I have to agree that the figures are accurate.

Again what was I assuming? That the writer isn't presenting information honestly?
That's not an assumption, it cold hard fact.

Again, by your logic it was your job to supply the information right?
Why should I have to explain where I'm getting my figure?

Sigh.
I already gave you the reference. Granted its hundreds of pages long, but you might have at least searched it before making me do it. Again from the toxicological profile:

3.4.2.2 Oral Exposure
Fluoride. Once absorbed, fluoride is rapidly distributed throughout the body via the blood. Fluoride is
distributed between the plasma and blood cells, with plasma levels being twice as high as blood cell levels
(Whitford 1990). After ingestion of sodium fluoride, the plasma fluoride does not appear to be bound to
proteins (Ekstrand et al. 1977a; Rigalli et al. 1996). However, there is evidence that following ingestion
of sodium monofluorophosphate, the plasma contains diffusible fluoride and protein-bound fluoride (Rigalli et al. 1996). The elimination of fluoride from plasma following short-term exposure to sodium
fluoride has been fit to a two-compartment model (Ekstrand et al. 1977a). The half-life of the terminal
phase ranged from 2 to 9 hours. The rapid phase of fluoride distribution represents distribution in soft
tissues, with fluoride being more rapidly distributed to well-perfused tissues. In pigs, the plasma
clearance half-time of fluoride was 0.88 hours (Richards et al. 1982). Fluoride does not accumulate in
most soft tissue; the ratio between tissue fluoride levels and plasma fluoride levels is typically between
0.4 and 0.9 (Whitford et al. 1979a). It is likely that fluoride enters the intracellular fluid of soft tissues as
hydrogen fluoride (Whitford et al. 1979a). Studies in rats and ewes suggest that the blood brain barrier is
effective in preventing fluoride migration into the central nervous system (Spak et al. 1986; Whitford et
al. 1979a); brain fluoride concentrations typically do not exceed 10% of plasma concentrations (Whitford
et al. 1979a). Higher fluoride concentrations are found in the renal tubules, the concentration often
exceeding plasma concentrations.

The largest concentration of fluoride in the body is found in calcified tissues. Approximately 99% of the
fluoride in the body is found in bones and teeth (Hamilton 1990; Kaminsky et al. 1990). The pineal gland
which contains hydroxyapatite also accumulates fluoride (Luke 2001). Fluoride is incorporated into bone
by replacing the hydroxyl ion in hydroxyapatite to form hydroxyfluroapatite (McCann and Bullock 1957;
Neuman et al. 1950). Fluoride is not irreversibly bound to bone and is mobilized from bone through the
continuous process of bone remodeling and to a lesser extent from ionic flux between interstitial fluoride
and the crystalline bone surface (Turner et al. 1993; Whitford 1990). The biological half-life of fluoride
was estimated to be 58.5 days in pigs orally exposed 2 mg fluoride/kg/day as sodium fluoride for
6 months (Richards et al. 1985). A comparison between the retention of sodium fluoride, fluorosilicic
acid, and sodium fluorosilicate did not find significant differences in the percentage of intake retained in
the body of female rats exposed to 24 ppm fluoride in the diet for 5 months; fluoride retentions were 66.2,
68.1, and 64.8, respectively (Whitford and Johnson 2003; only available as an abstract).

Hmm. Pineal gland eh ? Fancy that.

Also note. The "biological halflife" is that halflife of fluoride on average over all the tissues of the body. Some will have a shorter half life like blood as seen in the first paragraph, some will have longer - probably bone. Heck maybe even the pineal gland.

opinion guy · 04-08-2010 11:29pm

locum-motion wrote: »

I think it is perfectly obvious that he made it up. It's also perfectly obvious why he made it up, which was to point out the flaw in how you were presenting your arguments.

Let's ALL try to calm down a bit, folks, and try not to let the thread descend into a slagging match.

No I appreciate that locum-motion and I appreciate your balanced modding also. Its a tough job!

But I just feel if you are going to question the other sides argument, call it biased and demand references, you kind of are obliged not to do biased unreferenced things like making up half-life's to suit your point (especially when said half-life is wildy out of range to reality)

King Mob · 04-08-2010 11:31pm

opinion guy wrote: »

Sigh.
I already gave you the reference. Granted its hundreds of pages long, but you might have at least searched it before making me do it. Again from the toxicological profile:

Hmm. Pineal gland eh ? Fancy that.

Again, if you are supporting the assertion, you kinda have to do it.

But I have to concede that point as well. It does indeed accumilate in the pineal gland.

However, there's no mention of it being harmful, as the original article is implying.

Implying that it is harmful is scaremongering.

opinion guy wrote: »

Also note. The "biological halflife" is that halflife of fluoride on average over all the tissues of the body. Some will have a shorter half life like blood as seen in the first paragraph, some will have longer - probably bone. Heck maybe even the pineal gland.

Also note that this fact isn't mentioned in the original article either...

opinion guy wrote: »

No I appreciate that locum-motion and I appreciate your balanced modding also. Its a tough job!

But I just feel if you are going to question the other sides argument, call it biased and demand references, you kind of are obliged not to do biased unreferenced things like making up half-life's to suit your point (especially when said half-life is wildy out of range to reality)

Dude, I was obviously not seriously suggesting that it's half life was 2 seconds.

I was using a made up number to illustrate the burden of proof.

locum-motion · 04-08-2010 11:39pm

opinion guy wrote: »

No I appreciate that locum-motion and I appreciate your balanced modding also. Its a tough job!

But I just feel if you are going to question the other sides argument, call it biased and demand references, you kind of are obliged not to do biased unreferenced things like making up half-life's to suit your point (especially when said half-life is wildy out of range to reality)

I took it as an attempt to humoursly counter your argument, and I thought it was obvious that that's what it was, rather than an actual assertion that that's what the half life was. In that context, the farther away from reality the number was, the better, coz it would reinforce the intention of the post. If he'd said for example "36hours" then some readers might take it for a genuine rather than a tongue in cheek half life.

locum-motion · 04-08-2010 11:41pm

Right, guys, back on topic now, please!!

opinion guy · 04-08-2010 11:51pm

King Mob wrote: »

Again, if you are supporting the assertion, you kinda have to do it.

Well no. If you are coming on here having a definitive opinion on the subject you have to be prepared to back it up. I only asked questions. "The experts say" simply isn't good enough.

But I have to concede that point as well. It does indeed accumilate in the pineal gland.

However, there's no mention of it being harmful, as the original article is implying.

Thats because toxicity is dealt with in a whole other section of the manuscript. I haven't read it but feel free to read it yourself.

Implying that it is harmful is scaremongering.

Has it occurred to you that Dr Connett has read the toxicity section of the manuscript ?

Dude, I was obviously not seriously suggesting that it's half life was 2 seconds.

I was using a made up number to illustrate the burden of proof.

Ok. How is some randomer reader of this page to know you were not being serious ? Making up a number like that is an act of biasing. Even if you didn't mean it that way.

Anyhow I must go to bed. Locum-Motion thanks for the modding. Can I ask you - I mean know disrespect to your father or to his views - but to the best of my knowledge toxicology is not part of the dental curriculum - did he self-educate on fluoride toxicology and read myriads of papers upon which to base his views ?

Forgive my question. But I know a bit about low dose toxicology. Just a bit mind. But I do know that one of the problems in the field is that some of the assumptions made by clinicians and epidemiologist are often made without a full biochemical understanding of the toxicology of the subject. This is widespread to the point of being standard. Moreso, in recent years the understanding of low dose toxicology has changed radically - even more so when you consider variant genes etc which to date have been averaged out by epidemiology. Nutritional factors are often also significant confounders. Its distinctly probable for any toxicant that there are hyper-responders and hypo-responders. This is only just beginning to be accounted for in epidemiology. Its complicated stuff. Skepticism of any definite opinions either side of the argument is to be advised! And this doens't even consider combination exposure toxicology which is in its infancy!

Edit: Locum-motion - apologies jsut saw your ontopic post after posting this

King Mob · 05-08-2010 12:05am

opinion guy wrote: »

Well no. If you are coming on here having a definitive opinion on the subject you have to be prepared to back it up. I only asked questions. "The experts say" simply isn't good enough.

Well the only assertion I made was that the claim in the article was unreferenced (which is true) and unsupported (which you have shown to be false.)

If you make a claim you have to support it.
It's how the burden of proof works.

opinion guy wrote: »

Thats because toxicity is dealt with in a whole other section of the manuscript. I haven't read it but feel free to read it yourself.

Has it occurred to you that Dr Connett has read the toxicity section of the manuscript ?

Yes, but he provided nothing to show that he did, or that the manuscript supports his assertion.
Which is my point.

The question is do you think it is harmful?

opinion guy wrote: »

Ok. How is some randomer reader of this page to know you were not being serious ? Making up a number like that is an act of biasing. Even if you didn't mean it that way.

Because the context makes it clear?
Did you miss the bit where I claimed the kidney works by magic?

WildBoots · 05-08-2010 4:42pm

WildBoots wrote: »

The Irish Medicines Board declared that fluoride is "not a medicine" and has "never been proven safe or effective for use on humans." Is this the unfounded nonsense you are talking about?

This post seems to be distressing people so how about:

According to Kathy Sinnott, the Irish Medicines Board declared that fluoride is not a medicine and has never been proven safe or effective for use on humans( I think this is what she stated in the video more or less). Better? I can try and contact the IMB and see what they have to say if people want to know what their opinion is? Or mabe they could contact the IMB themselves if they feel like it?

I find it amazing that people have chosen to concentrate on what was nothing more than a small typing error while ignoring some of the other information that I presented, such as:

"Isn't water fluoridation illegal anyway, as it contravenes both EU directives and the European Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine?

The use of unregistered substances for medicinal purposes is illegal under the Codified Pharmaceuticals Directive 2001/83/EEC

The intent to medicate renders any substance presented as having any beneficial effect on a medical condition a medicinal substance under Article 1 of this Directive, irrespective of its efficacy. All medicinal substances must be registered as such, and subjected to full clinical testing for safety. Fluorosilicates have not been so registered nor tested for safety. Manufacturing these chemicals under BS EN 12174/5 does not authorise their use as medicinal substances.

The use of fluoridation chemicals to medicate the public indiscriminately violates the code of medical ethics set out in the Council of Europe's Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine

This Convention establishes a valid Code of Medical Ethics and is widely accepted throughout Europe - the failure of the British Government to endorse it does not render its provisions invalid, as all such national codes should comply with the principles set out therein. States may not medicate any individual except under exceptional conditions of recognised public health emergencies. All medical interventions must be carried out under proper medical supervision, and in accordance with the patient's needs and fully informed wishes".

The addition of fluoride (some call it a medicine, I call it a poison) to the public water supply is ILLEGAL yet we continue to do it.

Obviously too many people have been drinking from the tap.

WildBoots · 05-08-2010 5:18pm

sam34 wrote: »

MOD NOTE:

wildboots, you are aware that this is a scientific forum, not CT

unless you provide a direct source for your IMB claims, your posts will be deleted as the unsubstantiated scare-mongering that they are. (oh, and by "direct" i mean from the IMB, not "so and so says they said it" or some heavily biased website)

Scare-mongering? Lol, who's scared?

King Mob · 05-08-2010 6:00pm

WildBoots wrote: »

According to Kathy Sinnott, the Irish Medicines Board declared that fluoride is not a medicine and has never been proven safe or effective for use on humans( I think this is what she stated in the video more or less).

So did she porvide a source or not?
Are you just swallowing everything you are told?

WildBoots wrote: »

Better? I can try and contact the IMB and see what they have to say if people want to know what their opinion is? Or mabe they could contact the IMB themselves if they feel like it?

Well you claimed that they made this statement, the onus is on you to back that up.

WildBoots wrote: »

I find it amazing that people have chosen to concentrate on what was nothing more than a small typing error while ignoring some of the other information that I presented, such as:

"Isn't water fluoridation illegal anyway, as it contravenes both EU directives and the European Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine?

Well I wouldn't say making a claim about a body's position with nothing to support the claim is a bit different that a small typing error.

The reason I haven't addressed those point is because they are unsourced opinion, not fact.

WildBoots · 05-08-2010 6:31pm

King Mob wrote: »

So did she porvide a source or not?
Are you just swallowing everything you are told?

Well you claimed that they made this statement, the onus is on you to back that up.

Well I wouldn't say making a claim about a body's position with nothing to support the claim is a bit different that a small typing error.

The reason I haven't addressed those point is because they are unsourced opinion, not fact.

I was quoting what she said, I'm sure if she made it up she would have been sued by now.

Fluoride is added to the water supply to prevent dental cavities right? I don't think there's any other reason. So fluoride is being used for medicinal purposes, this is illegal because

(a)The use of unregistered substances for medicinal purposes is illegal under the Codified Pharmaceuticals Directive 2001/83/EEC

The intent to medicate renders any substance presented as having any beneficial effect on a medical condition a medicinal substance under Article 1 of this Directive, irrespective of its efficacy. All medicinal substances must be registered as such, and subjected to full clinical testing for safety. Fluorosilicates have not been so registered nor tested for safety. Manufacturing these chemicals under BS EN 12174/5 does not authorise their use as medicinal substances.

http://www.edctp.org/fileadmin/documents/ethics/DIRECTIVE_200183EC_OF_THE_EUROPEAN_PARLIAMENT.pdf

(b) The use of fluoridation chemicals to medicate the public indiscriminately violates the code of medical ethics set out in the Council of Europe's Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine

This Convention establishes a valid Code of Medical Ethics and is widely accepted throughout Europe - the failure of the British Government to endorse it does not render its provisions invalid, as all such national codes should comply with the principles set out therein. States may not medicate any individual except under exceptional conditions of recognised public health emergencies. All medical interventions must be carried out under proper medical supervision, and in accordance with the patient's needs and fully informed wishes".

http://fds.oup.com/www.oup.co.uk/pdf/bt/cassese/cases/part3/ch16/1121.pdf

sam34 · 05-08-2010 6:41pm

WildBoots wrote: »

According to Kathy Sinnott, the Irish Medicines Board declared that.... I can try and contact the IMB and see what they have to say if people want to know what their opinion is? Or mabe they could contact the IMB themselves if they feel like it?

WildBoots wrote: »

I was quoting what she said, I'm sure if she made it up she would have been sued by now

hearsay is not good enough in this forum, as already explained to you.

and if you make a claim, the onus is on you to back it up, not on others here.

WildBoots wrote: »

Scare-mongering? Lol, who's scared?

not me. but others who might be more naive and/or have less scientific knowledge than me may very well be taken in by what is essentially empty rhetoric. we dont tolerate that here.

last chance to back up that statement with a direct source form the IMB.

King Mob · 05-08-2010 7:39pm

WildBoots wrote: »

I was quoting what she said,

Nope, you claimed it as fact without stating where you got it form.

WildBoots wrote: »

I'm sure if she made it up she would have been sued by now.

Seriously? That's your only reason to believe her?
Wow.

WildBoots wrote: »

Fluoride is added to the water supply to prevent dental cavities right? I don't think there's any other reason. So fluoride is being used for medicinal purposes, this is illegal because

Now you see there's a difference between legal fact and legal opinion.
Something is only illegal when it's been shown to be against the law by qualified law makers.
Any one who can string words together can have a legal opinion, but that opinion does not equal fact.
The little passages you keep copy pasting are opinion.
Can you show any specific evidence that fluoridation is considered illegal by any kind of legitimate body?

WildBoots wrote: »

(a)The use of unregistered substances for medicinal purposes is illegal under the Codified Pharmaceuticals Directive 2001/83/EEC

Fluoride isn't unregistered.
QED.

WildBoots wrote: »

(b) The use of fluoridation chemicals to medicate the public indiscriminately violates the code of medical ethics set out in the Council of Europe's Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine

All medical interventions must be carried out under proper medical supervision, and in accordance with the patient's needs and fully informed wishes".

Fluoridation is not an intervention.
QED.

locum-motion · 05-08-2010 8:37pm

WildBoots wrote: »

The Irish Medicines Board declared that fluoride is "not a medicine" and has "never been proven safe or effective for use on humans." Is this the unfounded nonsense you are talking about?

No, they didn't. You said that Kathy Sinnott said that they declared that. What Kathy Sinnott actually said was:

I wrote to the Irish Medical Board or the Irish Medicines Board last year and I asked them if they had ever reviewed flouride, had they ever given it approval, and they said it's never been sent to them.

Now, you don't know, and I don't know, exactly how the IMB's reply to Kathy Sinnott was worded. We only know what Kathy said they said. But she certainly didn't say what you said she said they said.
As I said before, the IMB's remit is the regulation of medicinal products. Not medicinal substances. You've been using the two terms as if they were interchangable. They're not.
I'd be willing to bet that the IMB's answer to Kathy's enquiry said something along the lines of: Fouridated drinking water is not a medicinal product, and therefore we have nothing to do with granting permission for it, and nobody has ever asked us to. But they'd probably dress it up in much more official-sounding language than that.

locum-motion · 05-08-2010 8:49pm

A

WildBoots wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Kathy Sinnott is making up lies about the IMB?

B

WildBoots wrote: »

...According to Kathy Sinnott, the Irish Medicines Board declared that fluoride is not a medicine and has never been proven safe or effective for use on humans( I think this is what she stated in the video more or less)....

I find it amazing that people have chosen to concentrate on what was nothing more than a small typing error...

C

WildBoots wrote: »

I was quoting what she said, I'm sure if she made it up she would have been sued by now.

A: Nobody suggested that.
B: KS said nothing of the sort. See above. Also, it wasn't a simple typing error. You were putting words into her mouth that she never said.
C: No, you weren't quoting her. At best you were attributing to her what you wish she'd said (and I'm being charitable to you by characterising it it that manner. At worst you were deliberately misquoting her to further your agenda. Either way, I hope you enjoy your 10-day holiday from this forum.

WildBoots banned.

opinion guy · 05-08-2010 9:14pm

if this is any help i think this is what wildboots is referring to (youtube - 10 seconds to find).
Wildboots it doesn't really say what you recalled it does. Althou she does highlight quite an odd little point here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HboWZlznAis

at 3:58

locum-motion · 05-08-2010 9:18pm

opinion guy wrote: »

if this is any help i think this is what wildboots is referring to (youtube - 10 seconds to find).
Wildboots it doesn't really say what you recalled it does. Althou she does highlight quite an odd little point here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HboWZlznAis

at 3:58

That's exactly the bit I quoted in post # 122 above.

opinion guy · 05-08-2010 9:19pm

locum-motion wrote: »

That's exactly the bit I quoted in post # 122 above.

Oh right sorry - I did look back but I was looking for a video and must have missed that.

But to be fair - you did leave out something that kathy sinnott said. The full quote was:

I wrote to the Irish Medical Board or the Irish Medicines Board last year and I asked them if they had ever reviewed flouride, had they ever given it approval, and they said it's never been sent to them.
So the law says its there as medicine, yet you can not have any medicines in ireland that hasn't been thru the irish medicines board and was never sent to them

zenno · 05-08-2010 9:22pm

for the original poster...

I would keep clear of flouridated water as it is bad for you and your doctor is right. many EU countries will not allow flouride in their water supply at all because of the health risks it causes. from what i have heard some bottled water contains flouride as well so it is hard to find non flouridated water these days. EU countries are doing the right thing by not allowing their water to be flouridated. there are many idiots here that will totally get enraged when you tell them the truth but just ignore them.

the european health and safety council were supposed to release their true findings on the dangers of flouridated water in ireland and some other EU countries but i am still waiting on their scientific findings. if it ever comes out.

King Mob · 05-08-2010 9:30pm

zenno wrote: »

for the original poster...

I would keep clear of flouridated water as it is bad for you and your doctor is right. many EU countries will not allow flouride in their water supply at all because of the health risks it causes. from what i have heard some bottled water contains flouride as well so it is hard to find non flouridated water these days. EU countries are doing the right thing by not allowing their water to be flouridated. there are many idiots here that will totally get enraged when you tell them the truth but just ignore them.

the european health and safety council were supposed to release their true findings on the dangers of flouridated water in ireland and some other EU countries but i am still waiting on their scientific findings. if it ever comes out.

Thing is you're not telling the truth in that post are you?

Many of the EU countries fluoridate their salt.
The ones who do not, aren't refusing to do so based on the safety of fluoridation.
There has been tons of studies showing the effectiveness and safety of fluoride, which I posted earlier.

But hey why bother addressing these things when you see no problem sticking your fingers in your ears and singing LALALALALA?

zenno · 05-08-2010 9:42pm

King Mob wrote: »

Thing is you're not telling the truth in that post are you?

Many of the EU countries fluoridate their salt.
The ones who do not, aren't refusing to do so based on the safety of fluoridation.
There has been tons of studies showing the effectiveness and safety of fluoride, which I posted earlier.

But hey why bother addressing these things when you see no problem sticking your fingers in your ears and singing LALALALALA?

you are giving false information. have you even bothered to research this topic ?

other EU countries are given the choice whether they want to use flouride as we here in ireland are forced to use it, read the facts and stop giving falsified information. http://www.fluoridealert.org/fluoride-facts.htm

King Mob · 05-08-2010 9:51pm

zenno wrote: »

you are giving false information. have you even bothered to research this topic ?

Yes. I provided a bunch of good well conducted studies showing the effectiveness and safety of fluoridation.
Did you bother to read them?

zenno wrote: »

other EU countries are given the choice whether they want to use flouride as we here in ireland are forced to use it,

So they do indeed fluoridate their salt?
And that not a single country stopped fluoridation due to it's "dangers".

zenno wrote: »

read the facts and stop giving falsified information. http://www.fluoridealert.org/fluoride-facts.htm

The irony is delicious.
You do realise how ridiculously biased the site is?

locum-motion · 05-08-2010 9:54pm

The flouridated salt thing has come up a couple of times. I'd like to see some data for which countries flouridate their salt and which flouridate their water (and which do neither), it anyone has it please?

King Mob · 05-08-2010 10:00pm

locum-motion wrote: »

The flouridated salt thing has come up a couple of times. I'd like to see some data for which countries flouridate their salt and which flouridate their water (and which do neither), it anyone has it please?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoridation_by_country

It's incomplete, but it's the most neutral list I can find.

ballsymchugh · 05-08-2010 10:02pm

this thread is still going??

York Review people!!

http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/fluoridnew.htm

bleg · 05-08-2010 10:10pm

Opinion guy

So the law says its there as medicine, yet you can not have any medicines in ireland that hasn't been thru the irish medicines board and was never sent to them

That's funny as there are plenty of herbalists and homeopaths out there using products as medicines that haven't been through any regulation process.

ballsymchugh · 05-08-2010 10:17pm

bleg wrote: »

Opinion guy

That's funny as there are plenty of herbalists and homeopaths out there using products as medicines that haven't been through any regulation process.

haha. and neither have they!!

sam34 · 05-08-2010 10:29pm

zenno wrote: »

for the original poster...

I would keep clear of flouridated water as it is bad for you and your doctor is right. many EU countries will not allow flouride in their water supply at all because of the health risks it causes. from what i have heard some bottled water contains flouride as well so it is hard to find non flouridated water these days. EU countries are doing the right thing by not allowing their water to be flouridated. there are many idiots here that will totally get enraged when you tell them the truth but just ignore them.

the european health and safety council were supposed to release their true findings on the dangers of flouridated water in ireland and some other EU countries but i am still waiting on their scientific findings. if it ever comes out.

welcome to the forum.

please note that this is a scientific discussion forum. if you make a claim such as the one bolded above, you need to back it up with reliable scientific sources.

please dont call others on this forum idiots.

opinion guy · 05-08-2010 10:37pm

ballsymchugh wrote: »

this thread is still going??

York Review people!!

http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/fluoridnew.htm

2003. Thats old. Like I said I fluoride is not my issue, but I do know there have been a bunch of studies out of China on fluoride in recent years.

bleg wrote: »

Opinion guy

That's funny as there are plenty of herbalists and homeopaths out there using products as medicines that haven't been through any regulation process.

Ok.
First thing - I didn't say what you quoted. It was taken from a video of Kathy Sinnott relevant to above discussion. I was quoting it for general information since there had been debate and misinterpretation of this point.

Second thing - relevance of herbalism and homeopathy to this discussion ?

ballsymchugh · 05-08-2010 10:41pm

opinion guy wrote: »

2003. Thats old. Like I said I fluoride is not my issue, but I do know there have been a bunch of studies out of China on fluoride in recent years.

ah China. everything that comes out of there must be true.

opinion guy · 05-08-2010 10:49pm

ballsymchugh wrote: »

ah China. everything that comes out of there must be true.

Read it and find out.

zenno · 05-08-2010 10:55pm

for anyone that has not read this or has forgot about it in 2005 should have a read here http://homepage.eircom.net/~aud/home.htm

dentists have being constantly giving the government a review of the health risks associated with flouride in drinking water, but nothing has been done. it should be taken out of the water supply asap.

for people afraid of comming forward such as dentists and other health experts in relation to this mass medication of the irish people they should come forward anonymously and give their expertise on the health risks on flouridating the irish water supply.

ballsymchugh · 05-08-2010 10:56pm

opinion guy wrote: »

Read it and find out.

any chance of a link??
this is the same country where bribing the local party officials to get your way is pretty routine. on a bit of a segue, but that would be the reason why poorly built schools and houses collapsed in the earthquake last year, and where rodent's milk was given to kids in school.

sorry, i would prefer to stick to a systematic peer review of all the evidence, than something from China.

ballsymchugh · 05-08-2010 11:02pm

zenno wrote: »

for anyone that has not read this or has forgot about it in 2005 should have a read here http://homepage.eircom.net/~aud/home.htm

dentists have being constantly giving the government a review of the health risks associated with flouride in drinking water, but nothing has been done. it should be taken out of the water supply asap.

for people afraid of comming forward such as dentists and other health experts in relation to this mass medication of the irish people they should come forward anonymously and give their expertise on the health risks on flouridating the irish water supply.

they say in the first part that their group has over 100 members, but the letter only has 15 signatories. that's a tiny tiny minority of dentists in ireland. i've been working in ireland for over a year and i've yet to hear anything from don mcauley. that group seems to have gone to ground after that blaze of publicity a few years ago.

King Mob · 05-08-2010 11:07pm

zenno wrote: »

for anyone that has not read this or has forgot about it in 2005 should have a read here http://homepage.eircom.net/~aud/home.htm

dentists have being constantly giving the government a review of the health risks associated with flouride in drinking water, but nothing has been done. it should be taken out of the water supply asap.

for people afraid of comming forward such as dentists and other health experts in relation to this mass medication of the irish people they should come forward anonymously and give their expertise on the health risks on flouridating the irish water supply.

Can you back this up in any way?

zenno · 05-08-2010 11:14pm

ballsymchugh wrote: »

they say in the first part that their group has over 100 members, but the letter only has 15 signatories. that's a tiny tiny minority of dentists in ireland. i've been working in ireland for over a year and i've yet to hear anything from don mcauley. that group seems to have gone to ground after that blaze of publicity a few years ago.

maybe they are afraid of losing their jobs for speaking out.

the final european results should be out soon i'm sure so will see what they all have to say, and that should put an end to this problem once and for all.

ballsymchugh · 05-08-2010 11:20pm

zenno wrote: »

maybe they are afraid of losing their jobs for speaking out.

the final european results should be out soon i'm sure so will see what they all have to say, and that should put an end to this problem once and for all.

technically we are self employed. there is no one that can fire us unless we're working as an associate in a practice, and then the only way you'd get fired is by constantly acting the bollox or putting the patients at risk. you won't get fired for having a personal opinion as long as you have the right evidence to back it up.

i'm looking forward to this study. if it says that fluoride should be taken out of the water, then it'll make my day a little bit busier. having worked in a part of the uk which didn't have fluoridated water, and now in ireland, the difference, especially in kids, is unreal.

zenno · 05-08-2010 11:31pm

King Mob wrote: »

Can you back this up in any way?

as of 2001 they have been in contact with the government on this issue, why do you think the european health and safety council are doing at this moment an in depth study of flouride.

Dentists begin anti-fluoridation campaign
[Posted: Fri 26/10/2001 - www.irishhealth.com]
by Deborah Condon
A group of dentists will today deliver a letter to the Dail, demanding an immediate end to the fluoridation of water in Ireland.
Irish Dentists Opposing Fluoridation (IDOF) is a support group for dental professionals who wish to express their opposition to the addition of fluoride to drinking water.
According to the group, fluoridation is 'undemocratic, unethical and unsafe'.
"Most dentists would refuse to prescribe for a patient he/she has never met, whose medical history he/she does not know, a substance which is intended to create bodily change for the rest of their life. This is the water fluoridation ethos", IDOF said.
The letter being delivered to the Dail has been signed by 15 dentists, demanding an immediate end to water fluoridation in Ireland.
In addition, the group intends to provide an education database of the current scientific literature showing, what it claims is, the 'health and dental damage caused by fluoride/fluoridation.

ballsymchugh · 05-08-2010 11:35pm

zenno wrote: »

as of 2001 they have been in contact with the government on this issue, why do you think the european health and safety council are doing at this moment an in depth study of flouride.

Dentists begin anti-fluoridation campaign
[Posted: Fri 26/10/2001 - www.irishhealth.com]
by Deborah Condon
A group of dentists will today deliver a letter to the Dail, demanding an immediate end to the fluoridation of water in Ireland.
Irish Dentists Opposing Fluoridation (IDOF) is a support group for dental professionals who wish to express their opposition to the addition of fluoride to drinking water.
According to the group, fluoridation is 'undemocratic, unethical and unsafe'.
"Most dentists would refuse to prescribe for a patient he/she has never met, whose medical history he/she does not know, a substance which is intended to create bodily change for the rest of their life. This is the water fluoridation ethos", IDOF said.
The letter being delivered to the Dail has been signed by 15 dentists, demanding an immediate end to water fluoridation in Ireland.
In addition, the group intends to provide an education database of the current scientific literature showing, what it claims is, the 'health and dental damage caused by fluoride/fluoridation.

you'd think they'd share their information with other dentists too. they've been gathering the info for 9 years and still nothing??

zenno · 05-08-2010 11:36pm

ballsymchugh wrote: »

technically we are self employed. there is no one that can fire us unless we're working as an associate in a practice, and then the only way you'd get fired is by constantly acting the bollox or putting the patients at risk. you won't get fired for having a personal opinion as long as you have the right evidence to back it up.

i'm looking forward to this study. if it says that fluoride should be taken out of the water, then it'll make my day a little bit busier. having worked in a part of the uk which didn't have fluoridated water, and now in ireland, the difference, especially in kids, is unreal.

you are a dentist not a scientist it seems you just believe what you have been tought. although i respect dentists we still have to get to the bottom of this. other dentists and scientists from all countries that are worried about this flouride are not going out of their way just to piss people off, they are genuinely worried about the health effects of flouridation.

locum-motion · 05-08-2010 11:37pm

zenno wrote: »

for anyone that has not read this or has forgot about it in 2005 should have a read here http://homepage.eircom.net/~aud/home.htm

dentists have being constantly giving the government a review of the health risks associated with flouride in drinking water, but nothing has been done. it should be taken out of the water supply asap.

for people afraid of comming forward such as dentists and other health experts in relation to this mass medication of the irish people they should come forward anonymously and give their expertise on the health risks on flouridating the irish water supply.

So, five years ago, a body representing 15 - yes, fifteen - dentists held a press conference. Out of what? A couple of thousand dentists in the country? Woo hoo!

King Mob · 05-08-2010 11:38pm

zenno wrote: »

as of 2001 they have been in contact with the government on this issue, why do you think the european health and safety council are doing at this moment an in depth study of flouride.

Public demand spurred on by scaremongering and misinformation.
There are already many studies showing the effectiveness and safety of fluoridation.
I posted a sample of these eariler in the thread.

zenno wrote: »

Dentists begin anti-fluoridation campaign
[Posted: Fri 26/10/2001 - www.irishhealth.com]
by Deborah Condon
A group of dentists will today deliver a letter to the Dail, demanding an immediate end to the fluoridation of water in Ireland.
Irish Dentists Opposing Fluoridation (IDOF) is a support group for dental professionals who wish to express their opposition to the addition of fluoride to drinking water.
According to the group, fluoridation is 'undemocratic, unethical and unsafe'.
"Most dentists would refuse to prescribe for a patient he/she has never met, whose medical history he/she does not know, a substance which is intended to create bodily change for the rest of their life. This is the water fluoridation ethos", IDOF said.
The letter being delivered to the Dail has been signed by 15 dentists, demanding an immediate end to water fluoridation in Ireland.
In addition, the group intends to provide an education database of the current scientific literature showing, what it claims is, the 'health and dental damage caused by fluoride/fluoridation.

So which bit of this is a "reviewof the health risks associated with flouride in drinking water"?

zenno · 05-08-2010 11:41pm

quote: you'd think they'd share their information with other dentists too. they've been gathering the info for 9 years and still nothing?? endquote/

well this is the whole point now as we are all waiting on the results from the european council.

Water Fluoridation

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