Electricians Strike in St. James Hospital

D.McC · 05-08-2010 07:55PM #1

This might not be the right place to start such a thread, but am I the only person to be annoyed at the sheer neck of these guys to strike because their handy touch and the gaff that goes along with it is gone.

Millicent · 05-08-2010 08:05PM

Well that depends. Why are they striking?

Fukuyama · 05-08-2010 08:09PM

So what happens if theres a power cut and no electrician to turn on the secondary grid hook up hospitals, garda stations ect have?...

A load of flatlines I suppose

Ronin247 · 05-08-2010 08:12PM

2 sides to every story......from herald.ie

"It is important to remove spin from fact in situations such as these. Just what are the electricians concerned about? It seems management representatives "threatened" to remove key duties from them earlier this year including the handing over of fire alarms to security staff. These new personnel would have tasks that include resetting fire alarms, replacing broken glass units and coordinating call outs of Dublin Fire Brigade."

As I dont know the exact details, my tuppence is that the maintaining and repairing of a fire alarm system is extremely important. There are companies who do this alone and spend a lot of time training to do it properly.If the hospital want security to do these duties then they should make sure they are fully trained and not just some "rent-a-muppet" in a high vis putting peoples lives at risk

mikom · 05-08-2010 08:21PM

A few shots from a taser would bring these guys down to earth.

danbohan · 05-08-2010 08:23PM

Ronin247 wrote: »

2 sides to every story......from herald.ie

"It is important to remove spin from fact in situations such as these. Just what are the electricians concerned about? It seems management representatives "threatened" to remove key duties from them earlier this year including the handing over of fire alarms to security staff. These new personnel would have tasks that include resetting fire alarms, replacing broken glass units and coordinating call outs of Dublin Fire Brigade."

As I dont know the exact details, my tuppence is that the maintaining and repairing of a fire alarm system is extremely important. There are companies who do this alone and spend a lot of time training to do it properly.If the hospital want security to do these duties then they should make sure they are fully trained and not just some "rent-a-muppet" in a high vis putting peoples lives at risk

give them 5 mins to start work , then sack if they dont , end of story . should be no prob getting new eletricians from private sector

quietsailor · 05-08-2010 08:30PM

Ronin247 wrote: »

2 sides to every story......from herald.ie

"It is important to remove spin from fact in situations such as these. Just what are the electricians concerned about? It seems management representatives "threatened" to remove key duties from them earlier this year including the handing over of fire alarms to security staff. These new personnel would have tasks that include resetting fire alarms, replacing broken glass units and coordinating call outs of Dublin Fire Brigade."

As I dont know the exact details, my tuppence is that the maintaining and repairing of a fire alarm system is extremely important. There are companies who do this alone and spend a lot of time training to do it properly.If the hospital want security to do these duties then they should make sure they are fully trained and not just some "rent-a-muppet" in a high vis putting peoples lives at risk

But they're not removing the MAINTENANCE of the alarm systems according to the article, just the resetting of the fire alarms and contacting the Fire Brigade. The electricians/external fire alarm maintenance company will still maintain the system. In most other buildings around the country security already carry out these duties so St James is only catching up to the real world now.

When you actually stop and think about it the idea of having an electrician calling the fire brigade is ludicrious. It could only work one of 2 ways --
1. there has to be one electrician literally sitting around all night next to the fire alarm panel and doing nothing else -- which is quite possible in a HSE-centric world -- then contacting security to see if there really is a fire where the alarm is reporting one and then picks up the phone to ring the fire brigade.

2. An on call electrician who is out and about fixing something gets a pager alert from the alarm system, has to run back to the panel, contact security to see if there really is a fire where the alarm is reporting and then picks up the phone to ring the fire brigade.

Either way wouldn't the electrician have to co0ntact the people who are actually at the scene to see if it is a genuine alarm.
Now instead of the usual jobs for the boys shi*e we have in this country why not change it to letting the security contact the fire brigade. A system that works extremely well in most colleges, large office buildings, warehouses, industrial buildings etc etc.

If the hospital have any sense at all they'll let the union blow it up out of all proportion and then sack the whole lot of them and advertise their jobs. You could scatter broken glass on the pavement in fromt of the office handling interviews and I'd say you'll get lads crawling in over the glass on their knees to get those jobs such is the employment rates for sparks now, those lads threatening to strike have no concept of the real world at all.

D.McC · 05-08-2010 08:35PM

Ronin247 wrote: »

2 sides to every story......from herald.ie

"It is important to remove spin from fact in situations such as these. Just what are the electricians concerned about? It seems management representatives "threatened" to remove key duties from them earlier this year including the handing over of fire alarms to security staff. These new personnel would have tasks that include resetting fire alarms, replacing broken glass units and coordinating call outs of Dublin Fire Brigade."

As I dont know the exact details, my tuppence is that the maintaining and repairing of a fire alarm system is extremely important. There are companies who do this alone and spend a lot of time training to do it properly.If the hospital want security to do these duties then they should make sure they are fully trained and not just some "rent-a-muppet" in a high vis putting peoples lives at risk

Well you would be wrong... :mad:

None of these key duties involve any level of technical expertise.

What is on issue here is the call out rate these people receive to come out and press a button on a fire panel, (this will often be done by the nursing staff) as the electrician is on the clock from the moment they answer the phone.

This call out raate would also apply if a plastic break glass needed to replaced in the middle of the night.

And, as for coordinating the fire brigade – security staff already do that.

mikemac · 05-08-2010 08:38PM

Similar has happened before in Cork, I remember this case

How many electricians to change a lightbulb

I hope this case in Dublin gets settled more quickly then what happened in Cork, was in the news for weeks

Myrddin · 05-08-2010 08:42PM

danbohan wrote: »

give them 5 mins to start work , then sack if they dont , end of story . should be no prob getting new eletricians from private sector

Be a killer if they lived 10 mins from the hospital.

Ronin247 · 06-08-2010 12:28AM

D.McC wrote: »

Well you would be wrong... :mad:

None of these key duties involve any level of technical expertise.

What is on issue here is the call out rate these people receive to come out and press a button on a fire panel, (this will often be done by the nursing staff) as the electrician is on the clock from the moment they answer the phone.

This call out raate would also apply if a plastic break glass needed to replaced in the middle of the night.

And, as for coordinating the fire brigade – security staff already do that.

Replacing a break glass unit requires no level of technical expertise??.As long as it is only broken glass and you have been trained in replacing it properly.

Guess I may not be too wrong..please read the post properly.

starbelgrade · 06-08-2010 12:41AM

mikom wrote: »

A few shots from a taser would bring these guys down to earth.

Yeah - but if you break it, then who's gonna fix it?

strokemyclover · 06-08-2010 12:48AM

Maybe they're all paranoid from taking too many legal or illegal highs. I was talking to a St. James' sparks the other day and out of nowhere he said "Are you looking at me? I used to be a hard man! I'm shaking all over"

WTF?!?!

Snowie · 06-08-2010 12:53AM

Fire them employ others who are willing to work its not like theres a shortage of them any how.

D.McC · 06-08-2010 01:52AM

Ronin247 wrote: »

Replacing a break glass unit requires no level of technical expertise??.As long as it is only broken glass and you have been trained in replacing it properly.

Guess I may not be too wrong..please read the post properly.

There is absolutely no technical knowledge involved in replacing the small plastic (not glass) square that protects the alarm been set of accidently.

A person can be shown how to do this in less then 5 minutes!

These sparkies are striking simply because their little ‘holiday fund’ is on the way out.

Ronin247 · 06-08-2010 06:55AM

D.McC wrote: »

There is absolutely no technical knowledge involved in replacing the small plastic (not glass) square that protects the alarm been set of accidently.

A person can be shown how to do this in less then 5 minutes!

These sparkies are striking simply because their little ‘holiday fund’ is on the way out.

It is called a break glass unit because when you break the glass(yes it is glass)it activates a small micro switch which sets off the alarm.To replace the broken glass involves a small degree of technical knowledge which varies depending on the type of unit and the system it is part of.

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

JonnyTwoCombs · 06-08-2010 09:21AM

Ronin247 wrote: »

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

I agree Ronin247 - only this time it might be better to practice what you preach. :rolleyes: The small piece of transparent material in one of those units is deeded plastic (glass would be a safety hazard).

I must have swopped out hundreds of them during my working life. If it takes any longer than 5 / 10 minutes to show someone how its done, well they really should consider themselves as special needs. :eek:

What I don’t understand is your statement concerning the type of unit and the system it is attached too. In reality, this type of unit is used to activate a fire alarm or over-ride a magnetic locking system used on the staff side of doorways which use a swipe or some other security measure to open them.

If you know another use, which doesn’t involve the activation of an alarm or the over-ride of a locking system, would you care to share…

Just a thought, the hospital would have upgraded to the 'resettable type' call point (not break glass unit) which only involves turning a key to reset.:P

Ronin247 · 06-08-2010 06:08PM

Asec spare replacement glass to suit call point
Ref: AS8030
Asec KG1 Spare / replacement glass to suit WG2000 series call point laminated - shatterproof glass. Supplied in packs of 5.

The above is from the locksonline website. I can post a laminated shatterproof GLASS to you or a mod if further proof is needed. There are plastic ones out there but the majority are Glass

Ronin247 wrote: »

To replace the broken glass involves a small degree of technical knowledge which varies depending on the type of unit and the system it is part of.QUOTE]

JonnyTwoCombs wrote: »

.......................If you know another use, which doesn’t involve the activation of an alarm or the over-ride of a locking system, would you care to share…

Various break glass units are opened by screws,keys and other methods,the system may or may not need resetting manually....... There are a number of reasons that a small bit of technical knowledge is needed.Sorry you are confused,I mentioned that this is about fire alarms so what are you looking for me to share??

JonnyTwoCombs · 07-08-2010 01:22AM

WELL! I never *steps back, hand on hip and scratches head.

I have always thought them to be plastic :eek:– well I willing to concede the issue of material if your willing to concede that the ‘technical ability’ needed to install / reset the unit is minimal, ie once your shown how to do it, it is quite easy.

In other words, there is no need to call out highly paid electrician, on an enhanced rate of pay to do it, when anyone with minimum instruction can do it (which I believe was the OP’s point).

So to return to the topic, are the electricians employed in St. James Hospital justified in taking strike action to ensure they continue to be paid a huge sum of money to be called out to press a button or replace the glass in a BGU?

On a side note, electricians in all the Dublin hospitals do this. If the management of James can push this through then other hospitals will follow suit, probably saving a couple of thousand euro a year (especially in James, as the fire alarm seems to go off there every other night).

Stinicker · 07-08-2010 01:35AM

JonnyTwoCombs wrote: »

WELL! I never *steps back, hand on hip and scratches head.

I have always thought them to be plastic :eek:– well I willing to concede the issue of material if your willing to concede that the ‘technical ability’ needed to install / reset the unit is minimal, ie once your shown how to do it, it is quite easy.

In other words, there is no need to call out highly paid electrician, on an enhanced rate of pay to do it, when anyone with minimum instruction can do it (which I believe was the OP’s point).

So to return to the topic, are the electricians employed in St. James Hospital justified in taking strike action to ensure they continue to be paid a huge sum of money to be called out to press a button or replace the glass in a BGU?

On a side note, electricians in all the Dublin hospitals do this. If the management of James can push this through then other hospitals will follow suit, probably saving a couple of thousand euro a year (especially in James, as the fire alarm seems to go off there every other night).

Don't the HSE have highly paid electricians on hand in each hospital to change the lightbulbs when they blow and the average light bulb costs €75 to change.

JonnyTwoCombs · 07-08-2010 02:05AM

Only during 'office hours'. After hours, weekends etc they have to call one in.. this call out could cost €€€€'s for a 10 min task

Ronin247 · 07-08-2010 10:35AM

JonnyTwoCombs wrote: »

WELL! I never *steps back, hand on hip and scratches head.

I have always thought them to be plastic :eek:– well I willing to concede the issue of material if your willing to concede that the ‘technical ability’ needed to install / reset the unit is minimal, ie once your shown how to do it, it is quite easy.
.

Already done . Minimal technical ability and a small degree of technical knowledge are about the same I think.

Ronin247 wrote: »

To replace the broken glass involves a small degree of technical knowledge which varies depending on the type of unit and the system it is part of.

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

QED

Jonny,anyone can change the glass or reset the system but there is a reason for having a trained electrician do it.You stated you changed hundreds but then are shocked to find they are glass,it is important to have someone fully understand the workings of each part.I do not doubt your intelligence or training but there are specific people for specific jobs for a reason.

If we carry on with this line of thought then why have a nurse give an injection when the security guard could do it???it is only sticking a needle into someone after all.There are many different types of injections,intravenous,subcutaneous and intramuscular are just some I remember from first aid and thats not even getting into correct dosage and being aware of possible side effects.

If we all stand by and allow our working conditions to be downgraded we will all end up on minimum wage,there will be no incentive to go and learn a trade or go to college and study.We will be heading towards the communist utopia where we are all paid exactly the same and our incentive to improve our lot will be gone.

I am not a union member,I dont work in St James nor do I know anyone who does. There are a number of abuses in most pay and conditions contracts negotiated by the unions,the unions represent the workers and as such they are obliged to protect members rights,pay and conditions.While we argue about who gets a few crumbs off the top table the bankers,builders and our bullsh*t politicians continue to raid the piggybank.

JonnyTwoCombs · 07-08-2010 11:31PM

While I am a union member and shop steward in my workplace I still cannot reconcile why a qualified electrician needs to be called out and paid a lot of money to carry out a task which is quite easy (the material it is made from doesn’t change the extremely low level of skill needed to replace the item).

The practice of security personnel resetting fire alarms and replacing the glass has been used in private hospitals and business for years. The hospital is (IMO) merely trying to save money, not by cutting corners or reducing staff, but better utilising the resources at hand.

Your example of security giving injections is a little extreme. Nurse’s are highly trained and taught the proper dosages and side-effects not to mention the correct way to inject and where to inject the patient (to train a nurse takes a number of years, whereas training to conduct these tasks takes at most a few hours).

Even after qualifying as a nurse they still cannot inject anyone without being under the supervision of a doctor. Whereas electricians are not taught how to reset the fire alarm or change the glass on a call point during their training, this is normally something they receive instruction on if and were necessary.

And, let’s face it. The pressing of a button or swopping the glass on a BGU really doesn’t need to be done by these people. It can be done by anyone following instruction and then if a problem arises with the system a qualified Fire Panel Technician (not an electrician) should be summoned.

I wonder does the owner of a small business call out a sparks to swop the glass or reset their fire panel. :rolleyes:

I agree with you on one point, if we all stand by and allow our working conditions be downgraded, things will most likely end up as you describe. Yes, unions are mandated to protect the rights of the worker but, in this case, however the working conditions of these already well paid employees would remain the same. What they will lose is the ‘extra beer tokens’ for coming in while on call, to conduct a task which anyone shown how to do it has the ability to do it.

galwayrush · 07-08-2010 11:39PM

They should try working in the real world to make a living.:(

Ronin247 · 08-08-2010 12:05AM

In every job there are two viewpoints,the bosses and the workers,every job has perks,some more than others.

In a recession the bosses cut into pay and conditions as much as they possibly can,in a boom workers screw as many perks as they can out of the bosses.

My problem with this particular situation is the slow closing of the gap between the tradesmans wage and minimum wage.There was a time when anyone with a trade made a good living out of it,if we allow that day to dissapear then why would anyone bother learning a trade.

I am not defending the St James's electricians as such but defending the principle of workers rights.

I must admit to being shocked that you are a shop steward jonny.

Capt'n Midnight · 08-08-2010 03:30AM

Wouldn't the plastic ones burn in a fire ?

The_Thing · 08-08-2010 07:58PM

danbohan wrote: »

give them 5 mins to start work , then sack if they dont , end of story . should be no prob getting new eletricians scabs from private sector

After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab.

A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue.

Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out.

No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with.

Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.

Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage.

Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver.

Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commision in the british army.

The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.

Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country.

A scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class.

NO SCABS!

Author --- Jack London (1876-1916)

Couldn't have said it better myself.

General Zod · 08-08-2010 08:08PM

while it might seem like an inconsequential thing to strike over, what happens if they let it go without discussion or the correct procedures for change of duty being followed? What happens whent eh hjospital want to change something more important?

How much will security get for taking on these additional responsibilities?

Armin_Tamzarian · 08-08-2010 08:16PM

Seems a bit much to be threatening strike action over losing call-out money when half the Electricians in the country are probably out of work.

It seems pretty straight forward to me.
Resetting a panel or replacing glass/plastic in a BGU should be easily done by a Security Guard.
If they run into problems then let them call out the Electrician at that point.

Blackjack · 08-08-2010 08:20PM

I dunno, if you look at this one, it doesn't look like it takes a whole bunch of Technical knowledge to operate a screwdriver.

mikemac · 08-08-2010 08:27PM

Ronin247 wrote: »

My problem with this particular situation is the slow closing of the gap between the tradesmans wage and minimum wage.There was a time when anyone with a trade made a good living out of it,if we allow that day to dissapear then why would anyone bother learning a trade.

TEEU rates start on over 20 euro per hour for a newly qualified electrician.
On a 39 hour week, that's over 40k a year.

These are excellent rates for a somebody newly qualified in a trade.

Electricians Strike in St. James Hospital

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